W(h)ither Capitalism?

by afew
Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 03:39:04 AM EST

‘First they called me a joker, now I am a dangerous thinker’ - All That Matters - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India
In your new book, ‘First as Tragedy, Then as Farce’, you have analyzed the recent financial crisis. Do you see it as an opportunity for the Left?

I don’t believe my leftist friends who say this is a wonderful opportunity for the Left. That’s the tragedy of the Left. There may be hundreds of protest movements against global capitalism but there is no alternative proposal. A majority of the leftists today want global capitalism with a human face.

Is Slavoj Zizek, who learned Lacanian psychoanalysis at the soixante-huitard University of Vincennes, a joker or a dangerous thinker? What ideas should be making their way forward (and aren't) in the context of the economic crisis? What are your plans for capitalism?


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According to a survey of economics bloggers that has just been communicated (probably the word) to us, 71% say that US federal gubmint is too involved in the economy. Those are American econbloggers, of course.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 03:48:39 AM EST
What are your plans for capitalism?

Mixed economy, where government taxes and regulates economic rent and other unearned increments.
Government should never plan economy and allocate capital, just regulate.

by kjr63 on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 04:19:07 AM EST
One correction:
Government should provide necessary public services and basic welfare.
by kjr63 on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 04:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What are necessary public services?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 04:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The answer to that question is culture-dependent. And what is physically impossible will in short order be expunged out of the culture...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:31:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even before culture-dependent, ideology-dependent.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:40:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ideologies are culture-dependent.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:43:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ideologies can spread across cultures, even if the result is local versions. Ideologies can also quickly replace each other (say years to decades). What's so culture-specific about neoliberalism, for example?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
bit of a chicken-egg thing, isn't it?

maybe they are _inter_dependent. a rocky marriage...

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:48:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
re: inter-dependency

The distinction I make in the meaning of ideology and culture is rather simple but serves me well. Ideology is an intellectual activity. Culture is a physical activity.
Intellectual activity produces worldly artifacts, the objects people make real, or culture. These artifacts are behavioral (subjective, intangible) and tangible things such as spoken and written language(s), music, architecture, costume, tools.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 01:09:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ideology is the narrative we invent to bridge the gap between the limits of our perception (culture) and our contradictory observations.

That is, it's a largely conscious (in the sense that its tenets can be brought to self awareness) fudge between an unconscious map of how the world ought to be and the undeniable aspects of reality.

They usually have a culpable "other", have you noticed?  Whether it's single mothers, asylum seekers or neolibs...

by Sassafras on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 02:33:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not if it takes a long time for the impossibility to become so obvious that it becomes impossible to ignore.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...and that depends on public awareness. right now, most are still flummoxed, but slowly getting some clues things ain't right, not even close, except for the increasingly few.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:51:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Way back when...
Adam Smith: The Wealth of Nations (Project Gutenberg)
By necessaries I understand, not only the commodities which are indispensibly necessary for the support of life, but whatever the custom of the country renders it indecent for creditable people, even of the lowest order, to be without. A linen shirt, for example, is, strictly speaking, not a necessary of life. The Greeks and Romans lived, I suppose, very comfortably, though they had no linen. But in the present times, through the greater part of Europe, a creditable day-labourer would be ashamed to appear in public without a linen shirt, the want of which would be supposed to denote that disgraceful degree of poverty, which, it is presumed, nobody can well fall into without extreme bad conduct. Custom, in the same manner, has rendered leather shoes a necessary of life in England. The poorest creditable person, of either sex, would be ashamed to appear in public without them. In Scotland, custom has rendered them a necessary of life to the lowest order of men; but not to the same order of women, who may, without any discredit, walk about barefooted. In France, they are necessaries neither to men nor to women; the lowest rank of both sexes appearing there publicly, without any discredit, sometimes in wooden shoes, and sometimes barefooted. Under necessaries, therefore, I comprehend, not only those things which nature, but those things which the established rules of decency have rendered necessary to the lowest rank of people. All other things I call luxuries, without meaning, by this appellation, to throw the smallest degree of reproach upon the temperate use of them. Beer and ale, for example, in Great Britain, and wine, even in the wine countries, I call luxuries. A man of any rank may, without any reproach, abstain totally from tasting such liquors. Nature does not render them necessary for the support of life; and custom nowhere renders it indecent to live without them.
So, clearly, what constitutes a "decent" standard of living is partly a cultural construct.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, clearly, what constitutes a "decent" standard of living is partly a cultural construct.

That's Migeru, not Adam Smith. (I did a double take).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gah. I want my TribExt.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:43:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
return to an earlier FF version then.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:13:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Work firewall - I'm stuck with IE.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:20:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
poor you.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no cheap 3G mobile in the breast pocket. with the hankie.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For a moment it seemed the last sentence was by Smith too...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:42:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
kjr63:
allocate capital

Do we trust markets to do this efficiently?

If not, and if government has to regulate in order to ensure efficiency, isn't the regulatory activity a form of decision-making in capital allocation?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:20:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Keynes in The General Theory: "When the Capital development of a country is the byproduct of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done".

The content of Veblen's Theory of Business Enterprise is that "captains of industry" (i.e., robber barons) direct the economy for their own monetary gain, and that economic development is incidental to their activities: their actions are as likely to lead to improvement or deterioration of the general welfare.

And Minsky claims in Stabilizing an Unstable Economy that

[Neoclassical Economics' General Equilibrium Theory] means that, for those subsystems of the economy where conditions are apt, the market can be relied upon, particularly if the market is not relied upon for
  1. the overall stability of the economy
  2. the determination of the pace and even the direction of investment
  3. income distribution; and
  4. the determination of prices and outputs in those sectors that use large amounts of capital assets per unit of input or per worker
Minsky was in favour of letting the market function and not micromanage it. In that sense, the government shouldn't intervene in the economy.

But the big picture, the boundary conditions, the rules of the game, the regulation, needs to be set up with a view to the likely consequences.

This is a problem of dynamic control of a complex system. Micromanagement is not indicated. "Planning" is.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:30:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru: This is a problem of dynamic control of a complex system. Micromanagement is not indicated. "Planning" is.

Any chance you could unpack this into a diary?

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:05:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See, e.g., this.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:01:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could start by lifting a quotation from Pippard's Response and Stability...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Political implications [of delayed feedback]

... Provided [that] some degree of correlation is observed between model and reality, the model may prove very valuable. Rarely will it serve to make firm predictions such as physicists (alone among natural scientists) make with confidence. On the other hand, the model may open our eyes to possibilities of behaviour which otherwise would have been quite overlooked. The disastrous effects of delay on negative feedback is a case in point, and I propose to examine briefly the possible application of our calculations in government.

One of the functions of benign government (that is, one that considers the interests of the ruled above those of the rulers) is to ensure, as far as possible, that the life of the country remains reasonably well balanced. To take a particular example, an industrial country depends on its educational system to produce not only educated, responsible citizens, but as well such a supply of trained specialists as are needed to run, improve and make competitive the wealth-producing industries. If there are too few, as has happened in Britain at times, government may choose to offer incentives to cause more talented youth to embark on a career in technology. This is an application of negative feedback, to observe an imbalance and act so as to eliminate it. In this case, however, there is an inevitable delay of many years between the act, which initiates novices into the training process, and the useful outcome in the form of trained engineers. Our model leads us to believe that too decisive government action might be counter-productive - too many students starting would have no effect for some years, and then would saturate the market. Not only that, but for years to come the students already in the pipeline would pour out into a jobless arena. At which point, a government that had not yet learned the lesson would discourage any more students from entering on engineering courses, and in due time a famine of trained young people would once again paralyse industry and lead to demands for corrective action. Now in fact this has not happened, not (I think) because governments were alert to, and swayed by, this view of the problem, but because the issue has never been a vote-catcher such as would lead to unthinking and damaging over-reaction.

There are, however, public issues of far greater sensitivity where politicians are under the strongest pressure to provide instant cures for perceived ills, and of these the state of a country's economy is the most serious, especially as measures to adjust the economy cannot take effect immediately. We have here an ideal situation for delayed negative feedback, and it is not unreasonable to ascribe some of the fluctuations in the economic state of Britain to a too-vigorous application of feedback. It is a curious, and rather disheartening, paradox that matters of limited interest are likely to run on an even keel while the most important matters are caused to pursue a bucketing course through excess of zeal

But this is not only a problem of government action - the herd behaviour of "investors" is one example of such delayed negative feedback. The expansion and contraction of private credit in response to changing economic conditions is another example.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 04:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reading that excerpt, I now understand what he meant in this one:

It is tempting to see the life of an extended society as a species of chaos - normally it is restricted chaos in that the observed actions constitute only a small fraction of the possibilities.  The analogy becomes especially persuasive when one recalls that ancient commonplace that no action, however small, but has consequences that spread through the community : 'for want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe...'.(34)  The implication is that one must not accept the theories of social science to be predictive except for short times ahead, or for certain processes that can develop only slowly, like the fundamental principles of a political party.  It may be, for instance, that grand overall economic theories can be devised, but that the limited economic theories that governments long for will never have predictive validity for far enough ahead to be any use.  Be that as it may, it is desirable that those social scientists who seem to strive to make their discipline conform as closely as possible to the perceived ideal of physics, should recognize that they may be imitating physical procedures at the very point where they are least reliable.  And for their part physicists should not allow themselves to be gratified overmuch when philosophers of science select physics as the typical science.  The phenomenon of chaos is a salutory reminder of the frailty of human endeavour, and it may be that the recognition of the limitations of mathematical prediction will prove the most typically scientific aspect of physics.

-- Alfred Brian Pippard, Response and stability: an introduction to the physical theory (p. 128)



The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is one of the best books I ever bought.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you like that sort of thing Fischer's Historians' Fallacies is the sort of thing you should like.  Narrowly directed at and within the History discipline much of his critique (and humor!) is applicable across the broad range of the Social Sciences.

No one could have predicted
by ATinNM on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 11:46:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Start with ARGeezer's Steve Keen's Dynamic Model of the Economy by ARGeezer on September 23rd, 2009.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fischer in The Great Wave sketched out a thesis that an increase in the money during times of population increase is the cause of Inflation.

I'll note the presence of a steady increase in one environmental variable within a Complex dynamic system tends to drive that system into a self-generated reorganization: bifurcation, Catastrophe, Emergent Phenomena ... it can take many forms.  

So, one has to question whether the word "Equilibrium" in "General Equilibrium Theory" has meaning outside its mathematical definition.


No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. Markets don't exist in a vacuum, the profitability of capital investments is influenced determined by the economic and regulatory conditions.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:46:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you have markets without robber barons and/or mandarins?

Zizek's point is that perhaps capitalism can't be fixed. Framing political and developmental issues using capitalist concepts and rhetoric may not only be contingently wrong, it's possible it's inherently, objectively and absolutely wrong.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:26:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I note capitalism != markets, and socialism != lack of competition.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:49:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Capitalism = free trade, where 'free' really means 'subject to more or less nominal political constraints', the extent of which depend on the strength of populist opposition to plutocracy.

Capitalism also = some element of plutocracy, even if it's held in check.

You can have competitive social Darwinism without capitalism, and it can even look socialist. All you need is some significant signifier of competitive success and severe consequences for the losers.

In capitalism, the signifiers are financial. (Although in fact that's just another form of totemic symbolism, rather than the objective status marker it pretends to be; persuasive individuals can manipulate this fact for personal gain.)

In other systems, markers can be social, historical, intellectual, or symbolic in other ways.

Market socialism - socialism which accepts that the economy must be industrialised, centralised, managed and monitored - is really just a softer variant of capitalism in which competition is constrained so that the consequences of competitive failure are less severe than usual.

It doesn't challenge the premise that competition is inherently good at all times, or the most effective way to improve the common good.

What seems to happen in socialised economies is that high taxation is collected, redistributed and invested rather apologetically, rather than being framed as - say - the natural and inevitable cost of participation in a beneficial social project, with built-in synergies of mutual advantage that are only possible when cooperation and altruism are significant social goals.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:33:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Capitalism = free trade, where 'free' really means 'subject to more or less nominal political constraints', the extent of which depend on the strength of populist opposition to plutocracy.

Capitalism also = some element of plutocracy, even if it's held in check.

Again, capitalism without capital or capitalists. Unless by 'plutocrats' you mean the 'capitalists'.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:47:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
.

Braudel's argument was that market economies have existed worldwide well before the rise of industrial capitalism and that, in essence, the marx/engels timeline was based on false extrapolation from an oversimplified view of a small period of european history.

by rootless2 (redacted) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:13:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Trading existed well before the rise of industrial capitalism. But for a market economy, you need a society geared to trade as the prime social activity.

That describes an unexpectedly small number of cultures.

It may not even describe this one.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interestingly, "efficient" tends to mean, in NCE circles, 'return a positive cash flow' under a first order analysis.  Any outside factor, such as a functional legal system, that contributes to a firm's ability to 'return a positive cash flow' is considered efficient.  However, any outside factor that decreases a firm's cash flow -- such as Public Health -- through taxation is not "efficient."

The manufacturing of batteries in India under less than stringent manufacturing safety conditions was certainly "efficient" for Union Carbide.  Not so "efficient" for those immediately maimed, crippled, and killed by the gas release, those suffering the consequences over the last 25 years, and the on-going damage to the inhabitants in and around Bhopal.  So, it turns out, had stringent regulations had been in place, in the first place, it would have been more "efficient" for both Union Carbide and the Bhopalese.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 01:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do we trust markets to do this efficiently?

Migeru gives such brilliant response that i feel silly to add anything. But IMO the key word here is the "market". If the markets function and are real markets, we should mostly trust them. If not, and profits and yields come from different kind of monopoly pricing and capital gains, we should regulate/tax these incomes. So that non-functional markets do not drain savings and investments. But finance the productive economy. The aim should be to try to keep market prices close to production costs, so capital would circulate in real economic value. Without free lunch, money would to flow into the pockets of wealth creators, labour and investors.

If not, and if government has to regulate in order to ensure efficiency, isn't the regulatory activity a form of decision-making in capital allocation?

Yes, but "regulatory activity" is always there. Already in the form of property rights (that without regulation would be "allocated" by force). It is not whether regulate or not, but who regulates what.

by kjr63 on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Government should never plan economy and allocate capital, just regulate

Government should set socially acceptable goals and then regulate the rules of the game to attain those goals or at least move towards them. Whether you call that planning is beside the point.

And, no, New Labour's obsession with "targets" is not it. That leads to micromanagement.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:23:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you take planning to be five-year plans with detailed target for production and so on, then it's regulation. If you take planning as setting goals and leaving the parts that markets can achieve to the markets, then it's planning.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if you take planning to be five-year plans with detailed target for production and so on, then it's regulationplanning. If you take planning as setting goals and leaving the parts that markets can achieve to the markets, then it's regulationplanning.

You've deviated from the coffee-intake targets in your 5-year plan.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:40:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bah. The question is always posed too narrowly: most of the left are quite happy with a scheme that concentrates the wealth in the hands of a small proportion of the worlds population just as long as they're in that billion people.

Plans for Capitalism?

  1. Global minimum living allowance, set at 75% of the maximum of the local (state-level) median income and the global median income.

  2. Global tax system to pay for it, with attendent global governance.

  3. Global free movement of people. Suddenly a whole host of problems the rich billion more or less ignore will become very important.

  4. Strong media controls to prevent out-and-out manipulation of the body politic.

What, living standards for the rich might have to drop? Since when was that a problem? Why should we have any sympathy for them?

Of course, working out how to stop that utopia being subverted and corrupted is left as an exercise for the reader. That's the nature of utopias.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:07:07 AM EST
Ah, that was a nice singalong.

I was thinking of titling the post du passé faisons table rase.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:15:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
with attendent global governance

= global government?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:16:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not necessarily. I'll let the political scientists fight about that.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, as an example of a supra-national structure that can't be called a government, the EU hasn't got over member states' objections to a supra-national tax yet, and doesn't look likely to do so in the foreseeable future.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 05:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman: Strong media controls to prevent out-and-out manipulation of the body politic.

What do you have in mind?  I know this is not what you meant, but for me "strong media controls" evokes the Chinese Communist Party, the Iranian government and, on the extreme end, North Korea.  How do you prevent whatever you envision for "strong media controls" from devolving into the likes of those?

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:18:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Attack ownership concentration and advertising.

For instance, it should not be legal to own in whole or part media that are present both in print and television. And advertisement should be prohibited on television. Among other things.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:43:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Further along those lines, encourage the radical de-centralization of all production and distribution.  Break up national networks entirely.  Produce everything locally or regionally, news and entertainment and education.  People employed in creative media enterprises is a net good, heck with redundancy or efficiency.

A while ago, I posted a diary on how to fund media while prohibiting advertising - keep the ratings system, but have it direct money from a public fund to the popular media entities directly.

Ownership controls - media cannot be owned by conglomerates, and media organs cannot own each other or have any ownership stakes in each other.  Maybe even prohibit entirely the public ownership of companies - they must stay and remain the private property of individuals.

by Zwackus on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, working out how to stop that utopia being subverted and corrupted is left as an exercise for the reader. That's the nature of utopias.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:46:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no idea.

Carefully?

It's not as if the current media environment works for the good of society either. It's the difference between a dragon thrashing around wildly and one that's being sent to destroy the kingdom by the evil wizard. Both are going to mess you up.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:47:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What are your plans for capitalism?

Abolish it...

In the context of the economic crisis, of course emphasis should have been not on the persons guilty but the structural reasons that those persons got in the position of becoming guilty -- e.g. the necessity of curbing the profitability of financial casinoing, breaking up large banks and companies, punitive taxes on the rich. And all what has been emphasized on ET about stagnant median wages and reduced social mobility, the relationship of markets and regulation, fields of the economy where markets don't work and so on.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:05:23 AM EST
DoDo: Abolish it...

And replace it with what? Or can present-day society function without some sort of economic organization?

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:09:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Capitalism != economic organisation.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:50:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo: Capitalism != economic organisation.

Okay, how about 'economic system'?  Or simply 'economics'?

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And replace it with what?

Capital is wealth (resp. the ownership of same) given the possibility to 'earn' profit. Economic activity wouldn't cease without that, so 'replace' sounds a bit like theists asking whom atheists replace God with. Of course, I would still wish the economic system to take a specific form, a green-socialist one.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:17:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo: Economic activity wouldn't cease without that, so 'replace' sounds a bit like theists asking whom atheists replace God with.

Not quite.  Atheists and theists do not agree on the existence of God.  However, we both agree that economic activity would not cease without capitalism.  I was simply asking what form you would like to see that economic activity take.  Which you answer in the next sentence:

DoDo: Of course, I would still wish the economic system to take a specific form, a green-socialist one.

Would such a green-socialist system be based on a price-profit mechanism in which the factors of production were organized (e.g. by worker-owned corporations, cooperatives, entrepreneurs, state-owned businesses, etc.) to obtain a surplus (or profit) from society in return for the goods produced by this organization?

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
surplus (or profit)

It is probably necessary to distinguish profit from surplus.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:08:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me rephrase:

Would such a green-socialist system be based on a price-profit mechanism in which the factors of production were organized (e.g. by worker-owned corporations, cooperatives, entrepreneurs, state-owned businesses, etc.) to obtain more from society in return for the goods produced and services provided by this organization than it cost to produce and provide these goods and services?

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Define "cost."

Specifically, does "cost" include labour cost?

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 01:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS: Define "cost."
Specifically, does "cost" include labour cost?

Yes.

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 01:03:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How do you distinguish labour cost from profit?

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 01:06:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is profit the same thing as "return on capital"?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 04:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru: Is profit the same thing as "return on capital"?

Maybe in some cases.  But I guess in most cases profit depends on labor as well as capital, so "return on capital" would be an incomplete and therefore inaccurate description of profit.

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I guess in most cases profit depends on labor as well as capital, so "return on capital" would be an incomplete and therefore inaccurate description of profit.

Bingo. So you're saying rentier profit is theft...

But I think you're conflating profit and surplus. How about in most cases surplus depends on labor as well as capital, in which case "return on capital" can describe profit, and the surplus is divided between profit and wages?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 06:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if you pretend that the determination of the rate at which surplus accrues to the different factors of production is not a political matter.

If it is a political matter, then "return on capital" and "return on labour" are misleading and one should rather speak of "value added" by the production process as a whole, and "value captured" by different parties to the production.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 06:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing to debate there...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 06:26:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS: How do you distinguish labour cost from profit?

Well, for one thing, labour cost is something a business organization or project pays out, while profit is something that it receives (specifically, it is that portion of income that is left over after all costs, including labor, are paid for).  I don't quite see how labour cost could be confused with profit.

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Upper management normally set their own pay, or near enough as makes no matter. It is not always easy to see what value they add to the organisation.

In point of fact, one might argue that in the case of a particularly unproductive upper management, the shareholders (who are remunerated with "profits") add more value to a going concern than upper management (who are remunerated with "wages"), by virtue of making it easier to obtain operational credit at lower cost.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be a pretty unhealthy concern:  high labor costs for little value added resulting in diminished profits.  Poor shareholders.

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Define 'shareholders' and explain why they should have special treatment.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First of all, I did not bring up shareholders, JakeS did.  (Wikipedia and Dictionary.com on shareholders.)  Second, where did I ever imply, much less state, that shareholders should have 'special treatment'?  Third, though I admit it was probably not well done, I intended the phrase 'poor shareholders' to be semi-ironic, for my sympathy for shareholders is generally tepid at best.  Fourth, the non-ironic part of that phrase referred to the fact that shareholders in such a scenario would be getting screwed by unscrupulous or incompetent upper managers who were lowering the profits that the shareholders would otherwise benefit from (either directly as dividends or indirectly through higher stock values) by inflating their own (i.e. upper management's) labor cost.

The march of civilizations is a series of defenses that man has put up against the dread of pure existence.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 02:00:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Traditionally, the distinction between profits and wages is that wages are paid according to specific terms and conditions, while profits are what's left of the surplus when you've paid the wages. Profits, in other words, are the cashflow equivalent of equity, while wages is the cashflow equivalent of liabilities.

Another traditional view holds that profits accrue to those who own productive assets, while wages are paid to those who do not own the productive assets they employ.

But when you move up into the upper reaches of the organisation, both of these distinctions blur (in many of the bonus schemes lavished on upper management, they have all but disappeared). Management salaries become partly contingent on shareholder profits (or, in a more pernicious version, share prices). And management, not shareholders, are the ones who actually exercise control over the productive assets of the firm. Combined with the fact that upper management is very rarely fired for cause - they are normally bought out through golden parachutes - this raises a very real question as to whether the management cannot be said to co-own the assets in question, and thus whether their remuneration should be regarded as wage or profit.

This is not an entirely theoretical exercise. Non-profit organisations are permitted to pay market rates for management services, which means that when a non-profit becomes sufficiently large and complex (and "market rates" for upper management therefore take on an increasingly profit-like aspect), there is reason to question whether it does not, de facto, generate profit.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 06:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hey marco, did you compose your sig?

quite the quote!

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 12:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we both agree that economic activity would not cease without capitalism.

Do you also agree that that activity would still be 'organised' if you remove one (however significant) element, whatever actual form it takes?

Would such a green-socialist system be based on a price-profit mechanism in which the factors of production were organized (e.g. by worker-owned corporations, cooperatives, entrepreneurs, state-owned businesses, etc.) to obtain a surplus (or profit) from society in return for the goods produced by this organization?

In short, no.

First, the 'green' part of green-socialist means that it's not society alone that is considered. It's now widely recognised that for any economic activity, you could consider externalities. But one could go further and specifically consider external depreciation, that is loss of value: from the lowering of real estate prices for homes near a new highway through air pollution to the loss of uniqueness (as a worth on its own) in the form of species going extinct. Now,

  1. quantifying these externalities would be very difficult and contentious, and may require new technologies (like electronic money was) to function;

  2. but what really matters is not the actual value but that these have to be considered by default;

  3. when you take externalities into account, it is very likely that overall surplus is impossible [if it can be reduced to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics...] and we end up discovering that we are managing a decline.

On the socialist part, "profit" would presuppose capital - that is, roughly (with a possibly giant omission: borrowing), only wages are considered the workers' share of the income, and are grouped on the expenses side of the balance sheet as "labour costs" (what a misnomer!).

Now, the question could be re-phrased by talking about "surplus" as what remains after fixed wages, even if that too belongs to workers. However, why exclude the possibility of a company/enterprise doing without wages? So, we could consider things in terms of one workers' share on the income. Which the worker would of course wish to increase -- but if it is a bit more in one year and a bit less in another, is that a catastrophe?

But, the concept of growth gets muddied further if we also consider that workers could collectively decide to re-invest more of the income minus expenses, or that workers could collectively reject schemes that would increase one (remaining) workers' share by reducing the workforce and increasing productivity. So from price-profit mechanism, we are back to a price system and just "wish for a good life" as the basis of economic activity.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 06:42:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
overall surplus is impossible

By "overall surplus" I meant economic growth, in this case, more or less GDP minus ecological depreciation.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:54:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is not necessarily true. However, it is possible that a lot of human activity replaces ecosystem activity that was more thermodynamically efficient.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 08:02:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What are your plans for capitalism?

Interestingly, the dominant ideology pretends that we have a market economy without capital or capitalists (the late JK Galbraith observed in his final years that the term capitalism itself had fallen into disuse among the serious people). The whole point of Neo Classical Economics has been to obscure the role of capital, to the point that standard economic theory doesn't have a workable model of capital development, credit creation, the intertemporal effects of debt...

So, my plan for capitalism would begin with recognising it for what it is. Then we can figure out what to do about it.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:09:50 AM EST
Migeru:
my plan for capitalism would begin with recognising it for what it is

Sounds like a plan.

Migeru:

standard economic theory doesn't have a workable model of capital development, credit creation, the intertemporal effects of debt...

The absence of such (a) model(s) in a highly modelised theoretical environment may have had (no, some, a great deal of) effect on recently observable financial instability?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:58:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The absence of such (a) model(s) in a highly modelised theoretical environment may have had (no, some, a great deal of) effect on recently observable financial instability?

That's what Minsky's Stabilizing an Unstable Economy (1986) is about. Except that it's not "recently observable" - the book also contains a relatively detailed economic history of the US 1960-80 and he interprets each recession as an example of financial instability.

The one we're having now is like a cat-5 hurricane, but meteorologists don't pretend that cat-3 hurricanes are not hurricanes.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:26:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mig
Interestingly, the dominant ideology pretends that we have a market economy without capital or capitalists...

Worse, this is presumed in what is taught to everyone who studies economics, even in high school. The text books don't state it explicitly, but the structure of the discourse strongly tends to that conclusion. Thus the students absorb a confounding world view unawares. Of all disciplines in need of post-modern deconstruction economics should top the list, but it seems to have assumed a quasi-religious status where most people fear to question the assumptions lest they be struck by the secular equivalent of lightening.

In "Neo-classical Economics as a Stratagem Against Henry George," Mason Gaffney has clearly shown how this came about, Steve Keen, in Debunking Economics, has shown rather simply how little the theory corresponds to reality and Nitzan and Bichler have provided a coherent theory of capital as power in their book by that name, Capital as Power, a Study of Order and Creorder "creorder" being a concatenation with abreviation of "creation of order." What is needed is a simplification of these works into a form that is suitable for popular consumption combined with an adequate effort to convey this to a population that, if not now, should soon be receptive to a comprehensible explanation of how we have gotten to the situation in which we find ourselves.

To the question "Is capitalism compatible with a stable sustainable society that serves the interests of the entire population?" the answer must be: "Not without a population that has a clear understanding of how the system works. We have developed a system that is amazingly effective in confounding any popular understanding of how the system works and that reliably serves to recruit the great majority of its citizens to be the tools of their own oppression.

In order for us to survive as viable societies the evil spell cast by Neo-Classical Economics over the minds of the people must be broken. Only then will it be possible to test the possibility of constructing a better society.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 02:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Zizek:
There may be hundreds of protest movements against global capitalism but there is no alternative proposal.

I'll repeat part of a thread here:

Migeru:

I have most hope for some sort of "green left" paradigm. But the Green Left we have doesn't seem to have a coherent alternative in place yet. And a lot of the rhetorical/ideological baggage from the 60's and 70's grates me the wrong way.

A swedish kind of death:

I think we will probably have to write the coherent alternative here.

Like I do not have enough to do.

Migeru:

LOL

Well, get cracking!

I still suspect that for a coherent alternative to emerge we would have to write it.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:03:39 AM EST
Our representative democracy being what it is, there are few possibilities for the average citizen to directly influence the voting of political representatives and thus governmental decisions.

  • Voting in elections: local, national, supranational (e.g. EP)
  • Activism 1. Giving time / money to organizations who may have a more direct influence on the political sphere by their size and/or channels of communication.
  • Activism 2. Withdrawing purchase for commercial products and services. i.e influencing corporate decision-making.
  • Activism 3: influencing media debates, supporting investigative journalism, fact checking and dissemination
  • Local activism: influencing the people that you meet socially and at work
  • Personal activism: Controlling how you act each day. AKA altruism.

Anglo capitalism is at its most vulnerable, imo, in its symbiotic relationship with advertising and marketing. The components of Anglo capitalism - corporations, politics and media, are each entangled in that relationship (highly developed over the last 50 years). Even science and the arts are involved.

The real vulnerability of AC is identical to its core value: money. Reduce the amount of money that AC gets and you weaken its power to act. Thus if you want to affect the political decision-making component, attack the wallets of the corporates and their media subset.

So I restate what I have proposed before: that the most powerful weapon available against AC is Withdrawal of Purchase. (as well as supportive purchase). This has never been a very effective tool of democracy in the past, but it is becoming so. The Intertubez offer the possibility for thousands if not millions of people to come together and withdraw purchase (or threaten to do so) en masse. Ultimately we are all shareholders in AC, and we should exercise our shareholder rights.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:25:25 AM EST
No, because refusal to trade - even though it can be very effective - is too easily subverted as a caste marker and lifestyle choice.

To weaken AC I think you need to make its true value system explicit, and then destroy it. You can't do that by shopping elsewhere. Disapproval is still a form of participation and acceptance.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:31:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am a shareholder in Finland and Europe, whether I like it or not. I have to participate; it's how I participate that it is important to me.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:04:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shareholder or stakeholder?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I pay taxes. What would you say I am?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A stekeholder. Shareholders don't pay user fees.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:45:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
State pension?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:48:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A joint share company is entirely the wrong metaphor for a country, Magic.

Unless you can make some statements in joint-share-company space which map relatively faithfully to country space.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:01:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't mention joint stock companies.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is a shareholder?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:51:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A subset of stakeholder. The strict definition of shareholder would only apply to joint stock company owners and the company itself, agreed. 'Stakeholder' is used widely of anyone with an 'interest' in an 'organization' - financial or otherwise.

My use of the subset word 'shareholder' was a 'reframing'. Reframing necessarily involves changing perceptions. And thus challenging definitions.

A shareholder definition may include the following:

  • The right to vote on matters such as elections to the board of directors.
  • The right to propose shareholder resolutions.
  • The right to share in distributions of the company's income.
  • The right to purchase new shares issued by the company.
  • The right to a company's assets during a liquidation of the company.

Apart from the last item, it is possible to find equivalents in the relationship of a citizen to a democratic state. It's only 'what if' thinking, of course. It happens to be useful in my line of work - it may not be in yours. Not all blind alleys turn out to be blind.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 03:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A stekeholder. Shareholders don't pay user fees.

Were you laughing when you typed that? I hope so. 'cause we all know "stakeholder" entered the lexicon of polite conversation from the mouths of corporate management consultants attempting to conscript persons having no legal recourse over the governance of corporate operations in intra-industry propaganda wars.

Moreover, shareholders of public- and private-traded corporations most certainly pay "user fees" to own an interest in future income of the corporation, the property right of which to redeem or re-sell.

A joint share company is entirely the wrong metaphor for a country, Magic.

Country? Certainly you meant to type jurisdiction, even nation. Country is passé, déclassé among persons in certain quarters who believe civilized people do not organize themselves according to either their geographical location or boundaries.

When officers of state --an incorporated, formally established trust, continuously operating according to by-laws-- unilaterally declares a person a "citizen" of the state and exercises state "interests" in the social and economic activity, liberty, and life of said person so as to benefit the ongoing concerns of the bureaucracy, then said person most certainly is, voluntarily or involuntarily, and represents a share of the state enterprise.

Presumably, enfranchised citizens, or "shareholders," may exercise their rights to control state governance.

Incarcerated, minor, institutionalized, flora and fauna persons are stakeholders.

Unless you can make some statements in joint-share-company space which map relatively faithfully to country space.

say what?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Were you laughing when you typed that?

I was playing bullshit bingo.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 04:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
naughtyhead!

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
To weaken AC I think you need to make its true value system explicit,

feed the 'good' wolf, and starve the other?

something has to be done to stop wolves clothing themselves as sheep, that's for sure...

teaching people often and early to know how to discriminate between truth and truthiness would be a good start.

would a 'sheep' (harmless) capitalism still be capitalism?

my plan is to survive capitalism, with subgoals of waiting out the time till enough people help change it into some other, better, fairer form of economic game, while attempting to turn some of its less noxious, more whimsically endearing aspects to my advantage.

it is the (mostly shitty) hand we've been dealt, after all...

what really makes discrimination hard is when we have already fallen for the lies we have been told, internalised and tell ourselves, and been conscripted into furthering a dishonest paradigm.

accepting it as is, as a summum bonum is a treacherous ethical minefield we should know better than to inhabit, by now, imo.

if getting the banana out of the bottle represents the wisest goal for our species, or the greatest happiness for the greatest number, we better learn that just grabbing and pulling with a closed fist won't do the trick. that's present capitalism's attitude to the planet's resources, and a lot of broken bottles and bloody hands prove it...

with enough, patience, creativity, and inventiveness, i believe we can make a green version of practically anything, and thereby lose a lot of the grief that living in the middle of the muddle of polluted life has necessitated.

this will pull out and exalt skills much more determinant of a good future for us all than the presently glorified arts of swindling the gullible, aka casino, predator crapitalism.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
No, because refusal to trade - even though it can be very effective - is too easily subverted as a caste marker and lifestyle choice.

good point, but we must take responsibility for allowing that to happen.

what you said right there is the best definition of 'mediated' i've come across.

we should focus on the 'effective' part, and do some subverting of our own! turn dem tables...

caste markers as a language, for example, there's no real need to go that road any more, especially compared to during our grandparents' generation. still a long way to go...

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you miss the most useful, and historically most used, form of action for reaching capitalism : refusal to work...

I'd also bet the proportion of people "refusing the rat race" is much higher than usually thought...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:07:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant to draw the comparison and forgot ;-)

Withdrawal of labour is no longer effective against capital imo, as it is de facto class-based. AC increasingly doesn't need labour, although it still needs staff. But it remains a good way to influence politics, if the numbers are large.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:40:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
AC increasingly doesn't need labour, although it still needs staff.

Translation: AC has largely relegated its labour-intensive tasks to countries in which slavery is culturally acceptable and strikes are broken up with judicious application of machine guns.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:45:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You left out a form of activism - getting personally involved and donating time and labor to political and activist causes.  Being a labor organizer at your place of work, participating in local political party governance, etc.  These things are mostly volunteer, and often hard up for people willing to participate.
by Zwackus on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:54:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What are your plans for capitalism?

I have no plan for capitalism: I see it evolving into a new networked open form driven by the pervasive spread of direct instantaneous 'Peer to Peer' connection. In this emerging form of open capitalism, intermediaries are unnecessary and will be bypassed.

Shareholders in obsolescent (early seventeenth century and even earlier - turbo-charged by the more recent addition of limited liability) Joint Stock Companies are unnecessary intermediaries.

Banks as credit intermediaries are also obsolescent.

I see a new form of 'Open' capitalism:  a market economy operating Not for Loss and emerging simply because, and to the extent that, 'it works'.

It's not a plan - just an analysis - possibly Utopian, certainly optimistic.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:40:13 AM EST
A market economy operating Not For Loss may "work" -- but what prevents a sizeable proportion/majority of economic agents choosing to operate For Profit?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:48:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
afew:
but what prevents a sizeable proportion/majority of economic agents choosing to operate For Profit?

If they do, then they will be 'out-competed' by those who do not have the overhead of a payment to unproductive(TM) shareholders. ie who benefit from the Cooperative Advantage.

So Not for Loss will out-compete For Profit in the right - partnership-based, I believe - co-operative enterprise model.

It's all about perspective.

Our current rhetoric is all from the perspective of the rentier who regards the entrepreneur he finances; the suppliers; the staff and the clients all as being 'costs' to be cut in terms of price, pay or service.

From the perspective of the entrepreneur; suppliers; staff and customers - for all of these it is the shareholder and the bank credit creators who represent 'costs' to be cut, and which are in fact 'unproductive'.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:29:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
afew:
but what prevents a sizeable proportion/majority of economic agents choosing to operate For Profit?
If they do, then they will be 'out-competed' by those who do not have the overhead of a payment to unproductive(TM) shareholders. ie who benefit from the Cooperative Advantage.
Why now? What prevented "not for loss" from out-competing "for-profit" previously?


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New tools and instruments.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:05:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Correct. The necessary 'open corporate' legal tools enabling it - such as LLCs and LLPs did not exist.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The tool is our new ability to three-dimensionally connect with each other.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Three-dimensionally?

Just to make sure, we're in metaphor territory here, right?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yup.

1st dimension, our conversation/relationship with ourselves

2nd... our conversations with other individuals in the group

3rd... our adding mental bricks to a cyber-construction of collective ideation, created by individuals, transmitted through the architecture of a new technology, permitting a new dimension both to individual's self-understanding, and the collaborative possibilities previously braked* by older technology.

*or co-opted, enslaved or broken.  

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 09:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean by instrument? What do you mean by tool?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:25:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Instrument:"cash, evidence of an ownership interest in an entity, or a contractual right to receive, or deliver, cash or another financial instrument."

subset of:

Tool: "entity that interfaces between two or more domains"

3-dimensional as in:



You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's two dimensional.

 What are the three dimensions in question?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:20:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's actually a one-dimensional cell complex. What are your two dimensions in question?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:25:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's   a 2-D representation of a one-D cell complex.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:26:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Go fuck yourselves ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:29:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, well played. A little ";-)" to make it all edgy and cool rather than just rude.

I'll take it you have no actual idea what you're talking about here then.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:54:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Clever clogs find it hard to be loved...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's a 2D projection of a 3D representation of a 1D cell complex.

Because you need at least 3D for the links not to cross except at nodes.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:47:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think this graph has enough points not to be embeddable in a n-torus surface with n sufficiently large...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:24:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you poke it with a mouse pointer, does it move?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:54:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what is the lowest dimension where it can be embedded without links crossing?

And, is that lowest dimension significant?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 11:54:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
I think it's a 2D projection of a 3D representation

ding!

unless you have a new kind of monitor!

those points of light would have to lie extremely flat to make it 2D, lol.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 10:00:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
put yer goggles on!

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 09:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to point out that LLCs and LLPs are, in their legal framing, For Profit structures.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:31:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
afew:
Just to point out that LLCs and LLPs are, in their legal framing, For Profit structures.

Yes indeed, but that language is misleading.

They are "For Participant Profit" rather than "For Rentier Profit"

Very different.

There is no profit and loss within an LLP or LLC framework, and the wider you extend the framework the more stakeholders you bring in until you get rid of profit and loss (and the double entry book-keeping in which it is accounted) altogether and end up with shared surplus (and a 'shared transaction and title repository' accounting).

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:59:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But forms of non-profit or non-rentier-profit company existed before either LLPs or LLCs. Everything wasn't just joint-stock.

Historical Background of the Limited Liability Company

LLCs are neither new nor strange to the business community in the civil law countries of Europe and Latin America. This business form has its origin in the 1892 German company law known as Gesellschaft mit beschrnkter Haftung (GmbH). German not only was the first civil code country to enact this legislation, but Germany's enactment became the discussional focal point for the countries which subsequently adopted this commercial enterprise. Molitor, Die Auslandisch Regelung der G.m.b.H. und die deutsch Reform, (1927); and 12 Zeitscrift fur auslandisches and internationales Privatrecht 341 (1938).

Once established in Germany, the concept of the LLC had a very active and fast growth. Success in Germany soon caused the German model act to become the focus of extensive debate. Within a short period of time after enactment in Germany, the following countries joined the limited liability bandwagon: Portugal (1917); Brazil (1919); Chile (1923); France (1925); Turkey (1926); Cuba (1929); Argentina (1932); Uruguay (1933); Mexico (1934); Belgium (1935); Switzerland (1936); Italy ( 1936); Peru (1936); Columbia (1937); Costa Rica (1942); Guatemala (1942); and Honduras (1950). In France, by the late 1940's, the limited liability entity known as "societes de responsabilite limitee" was more popular than the more traditional stock corporation and comprised approximately one-third of all French societes. Eder, Limited Liability Firms Abroad, 13 Univ Pitt L Rev 193 (1952).

And of course there were non-profit associations, co-operatives, etc.

Though these diverse forms have proved popular and useful, have they transformed capitalism?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LLC's are strange beasts. They are not technically corporate bodies at all, since they have a 'sell by' date, and therefore not the 'continuing existence' of a Corporate.

There has been nothing quite like a UK LLP, anywhere.

The Jersey LLP - which PWC and Ernst & Young apparently paid Simmons & Simmons (UK solicitors) over a million pounds to help get through the best parliament money can lobby - is technically a Partnership, but with a separate legal personality to that of its members. However, this legal personality is dependent on there being more than one Member: when the penultimate Member goes, then the LLP goes with him.

In England & Wales, however, unlike Jersey, and Scotland, come to that, a Partnership does not have a separate legal personality. Partners are jointly (collectively) and severally (bilaterally) liable, and in order to contract, to own property and so on, they must do so through individual partners as agents/trustees as the case may be.

That is why - strangely - while the UK Limited Liability Partnership may be called a partnership, it is legally a Corporate body, with a continuing legal existence independent of its members, like a Limited Company.

Unlike a Limited Company, however, there is no distinction between owners and their agents, the directors/management. So there is no "Principal/Agent" conflict in an LLP and no need for the prescriptive Company legislation which manages all of that.

A UK LLP is entirely 'open' - there is no need even for a written agreement (I doubt whether you'll find that anywhere else, least of all in Germany)- and in the absence of one, a single page of partnership-based principles applies by way of default.

A UK LLP offers people working together to do so collectively,to an agreed common purpose, like a partnership, but without the 'several' individual liability of partnership.

The LLP also offers limitation of liability, which is good from the point of view of members, but IMHO they should give back something to society in return for the protection. Jersey insisted on a £10k bond,as I recall.....

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 01:24:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have a law reference for that claim?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For the UK LLP:

Limited Liability Partnerships Act 2000 (c. 12)

(1) For a limited liability partnership to be incorporated--

(a) two or more persons associated for carrying on a lawful business with a view to profit must have subscribed their names to an incorporation document,

(emphasis mine)

For the LLC, I can't provide a clear reference like that. But we're talking about limited liability companies that are generally used in a for-profit frame. (see above when it's posted... :))

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that settles that. US has nothing in common with Yurp :D

There's no such qualification either in states' Uniform Commercial Codes (which each determine licensure of LLC and LLP within their respective jurisdictions) or in US Tax Code. Here benefits of "limited liability" have essentially nothing to do with potential profitability of an enterprise. Rather, ordering all claims on the income, if any, of the enterprise and indemnity enjoyed by participants.

See for example Definition of Limited Partner for Self-Employment Tax Purposes (IRS) and digest of The Revised Uniform Limited Liability Company Act .

he LLC effectively eliminates the traditional "Hobson's" choice between possessing limited liability and possessing the passthrough tax treatment of a partnership....

An LLC is an unincorporated association that is a separate legal entity distinct from the "owners" or members and is not merely an aggregation of the members....

An LLC can be formed for any business purpose as long as the purpose is a lawful one.... An LLC will be classified as an association and taxed as a partnership unless the LLC elects to be taxed as a corporation under the Self-Classification Regulations of the IRS....

The RULLCA sets forth certain mandatory provisions but distinguishes between items that the members cannot either vary or eliminate, items that the members can vary but not eliminate, items that the members cannot restrict, and items the members cannot unreasonably restrict.

explicitly...

 SECTION 104.  NATURE, PURPOSE, AND DURATION OF LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY.

            (a) A limited liability company is an entity distinct from its members.

            (b) A limited liability company may have any lawful purpose, regardless of whether for profit.

            (c) A limited liability company has perpetual duration.

www.nccusl.org, 2006




Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 02:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, I was wrong on the US LLC.

Would you say LLCs were very largely/mostly used for non-profit purposes?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 02:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Would you say LLCs were very largely/mostly used for non-profit purposes?

I couldn't say. Maybe the org has some firm population and firm size (1 - 1,000+) stats, maybe firm by NIC.

The key to understanding business classes here is understanding that selection is driven by concommitant tax advantage strategies and reporting requirements of each type so to shelter earning distribution -- whatever the source of income. 501(*) is a tax category of organization, whether or not incorporated, whether or not partnership, that indemnifies the firm according to strict regulation by tax agents of its business activities rather that its profit (loss) expectation. Administration is expensive.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 06:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...but not profit to rentier shareholders.....

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 03:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If they do, then they will be 'out-competed' by those who do not have the overhead of a payment to unproductive(TM) shareholders.

Modern industrial production is not materially subject to competition.

When it is subjected to significant competition, it stops working (barring sufficiently rapid expansion of demand that the competition is isolated to competing for the increase rather than the existing demand).

See, e.g., California's experience with deregulating electricity.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:52:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If they do, then they will be 'out-competed' by those who do not have the overhead of a payment to unproductive(TM) shareholders

But surely that isn't possible. Governments have told us for years that these businesses and PFI schemes are more efficient.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:04:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
data overwrite, please do not powerdown...

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:45:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What are your plans for capitalism?

Define "capitalism."

If "capitalism" means simply "people can own stuff," then it encompasses such a wide range of possible social configurations that it is compatible with almost any kind of economic model.

If "capitalism" means "individuals can own productive assets," then it is probably possible to manage it in a way that gives acceptable results.

If "capitalism" means "what's good for Wall Street is good for America," then shoot it in the back of the head and dump it in a ditch. Then go back to Adenauer's, FDR's and Anker Jørgensen's economic policy and take it from there.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:36:31 AM EST
If "capitalism" means simply "people can own stuff," then it encompasses such a wide range of possible social configurations that it is compatible with almost any kind of economic model.

In addition, private property is right there in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 08:49:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a core issue, of course. Do we even have real agreement on what form of capitalism we currently have?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:50:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, and this fact is deliberately used to muddy the waters. Far-right ideologues have no problem happily jumping from the first definition (which they'll offer as defence of capitalism), to the third definition (which is used to attack regulation as being anti-capitalist).

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:02:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
like any tool, it can be used well or not.

exploitative capitalism is the problem, or perhaps it's the degree. nature responds quite favourably to being exploited wisely, gouged not so much.

also.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:36:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is fortunate.

I was about to post a diary to initiate this exact discussion.

Thanks afew!

:-)


No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:27:11 PM EST
There are lots of other diary topics popping up in this thread. Take your pick! ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 01:00:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What ideas should be making their way forward (and aren't) in the context of the economic crisis?
I would like to see adopted a "credit bubble theory of the business cycle". In particular, monetarist/neoclassical "real business cycle" nonsense should be thrown out (this may be happening, Drew once posted a link to a paper by Summers where he torn the theory to shreds).

"Credit bubble models of the business cycle" is my own term for discussions which can be found in the writings of Veblen (in particular The Theory of Business Enterprise, 1904) and Minsky (Stabilizing an Unstable Economy, 1986). Interestingly, Minsky doesn't mention Veblen at all in his book.

A credit bubble model of the economic cycle would be totally consistent with Fisher's _debt deflation model of recession and depression. The flip side is the idea that debt inflation fuels the growth phase of the business cycle.

See also this comment of mine from May 2009, in response to Vladimir's question

So what's the alternative paradigm?
From the 1970's we have seen an updated version of the paradigm that reigned before Keynes wrote his tract. Monetarist macroeconomics has failed just as spectacularly as pre-Keynesian economics did.

The question is whether it suffices to relearn Keynesianism or a totally new paradigm is necessary. I don't know the answer. At the risk of repeating myself I'll quote Krugman:

The answer, I think, is that we're living in a Dark Age of macroeconomics. Remember, what defined the Dark Ages wasn't the fact that they were primitive -- the Bronze Age was primitive, too. What made the Dark Ages dark was the fact that so much knowledge had been lost, that so much known to the Greeks and Romans had been forgotten by the barbarian kingdoms that followed.

And that's what seems to have happened to macroeconomics in much of the economics profession. The knowledge that S=I doesn't imply the Treasury view -- the general understanding that macroeconomics is more than supply and demand plus the quantity equation -- somehow got lost in much of the profession. I'm tempted to go on and say something about being overrun by barbarians in the grip of an obscurantist faith, but I guess I won't. Oh wait, I guess I just did.

Just yesterday, he wrote
I guess the point is that you can be a bad writer and a great economist. And I really am gravitating toward a Keynes-Fisher-Minsky view of macro, although of the three I'd much rather read Keynes.
"A Keynes-Fisher-Minsky view of macro" would involve, I guess: a focus on aggregate demand (with the attendant countercyclical fiscal policy), an understanding of debt deflation (requiring tighter control of credit at the policy level), and of the fact that bubbles are a systemic feature of unregulated markets (requiring regulation of capital flows). Oh, and throw out Monetarism.
Since I wrote that comment I actually read Minsky, I found it much better than Krugman's comment about him "being a bad writer and a great economist" had led me to believe, and I think "a Minsky view" is much more than just "unregulated markets are unstable". It is actually a well-developed theory of money, credit and debt and how those lead to instability.

I think the most serious program of development of Minsky's ideas is currently Steve Keen's (ARGeezer's diary).

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 06:25:05 AM EST
Is it possible to distinguish reliably and explicitly between bubble-ish book value pseudo profits and growth, and 'real' profits and growth?  
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 06:39:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Minsky distinguishes 3 kinds of debt financing:

Hedge finance is where you can pay interest and principal on your debt from your earnings.

Speculative finance is where you can pay interes out of earnings but need to roll over your loans (borrowing to pay down the principal).

Ponzy finance is where you need to borrow even to pay the interest.

'Ponzi finance' here is not a term of abuse. Minsky says that not all Ponzi-financed enterprises are fraudulent (startups, venture capital, being possible examples off the top of my head). Also, banks are by definition speculative since they lend long and borrow short and need constant access to liquidity from the money markets to roll over their short-term debt.

This is all quantitative and precise, assuming you know the balance sheet and cash flow of an entity.

So, I think the answer to your question is probably yes.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 06:52:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It may be quantitative and precise, but it's not comprehensive.

Example 1: Corporation A lays off 20% of its workforce because of the usual pressures. Profits and dividends increase. Are these profits real?

If this is part of a movement among a significant majority of corporations, is the 'growth' in indices and GDP real, or bubble-ish?

Example 2: Corporation B is part of a national movement to increase the perceived value of a scarce good or product. The physical reality and practical use value of the item - if any - remain unchanged. But various persuasive techniques are used to herd the population in the direction of ownership.

Irrespective of how investment is funded - are the resulting profits real?

There are other examples. But when it comes to bubble profits vs social good profit, I'd see debt financing as a side issue.

Does the concept of a 'social good' profit even exist in conventional economic theory?

If it doesn't, there really isn't any useful way to distinguish between transactions that generate collective wealth, and collective illth with minor individual exceptions.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 07:30:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Example 1: Corporation A lays off 20% of its workforce because of the usual pressures. Profits and dividends increase. Are these profits real?

If the corporation is able to sustain itself as a going concern with the new and reduced payroll, then yes. If not, then no, it is a liquidation that has been booked as a profit.

However, even in the former case, the fact that the profit is greater for the company does not mean that the profit is greater for society overall, because the laid-off workers are no longer being paid. That has to be counted as well.

If this is part of a movement among a significant majority of corporations, is the 'growth' in indices and GDP real, or bubble-ish?

In the above example, GDP would most likely contract, unless measures are taken to prop it up. After all, reduction in workforce means, ceteris paribus, a reduction in output, which means a reduction in GDP.

Example 2: Corporation B is part of a national movement to increase the perceived value of a scarce good or product. The physical reality and practical use value of the item - if any - remain unchanged. But various persuasive techniques are used to herd the population in the direction of ownership.

Irrespective of how investment is funded - are the resulting profits real?

Assuming that the supply of the good in question is sustainable, and that the producers can keep propping up demand indefinitely, then yes. Otherwise, it is either a liquidation, a bubble, or both.

Whether demand-creation through advertising is socially desirable is, of course, a different question from the reality of the profits.

Does the concept of a 'social good' profit even exist in conventional economic theory?

Conventional economic theory presumes that all transactions are voluntary, and serve to satisfy a need or desire. As such, all revenue (excepting those that involve negative externalities to third parties) represents a social good, and therefore all profits (which are a subset of revenues) represent a social good.

"Social ill" is abstracted away into externalities, and demand synthesis through advertising does not exist (in the aggregate) in conventional economic theory.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 07:43:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Example 1: Corporation A lays off 20% of its workforce because of the usual pressures. Profits and dividends increase. Are these profits real?

If this is part of a movement among a significant majority of corporations, is the 'growth' in indices and GDP real, or bubble-ish?

in that case you're probably in a recession and GDP is not going up. Or is that not what you mean by "the usual pressures"?
There are other examples. But when it comes to bubble profits vs social good profit, I'd see debt financing as a side issue.
it is possible that in the first case the firm doing the lay-offs will be moving in the direction of ponzi->speculative->hedge whereas in the second example things will be moving in the direction of hedge->speculative->ponzi since you're assuming you have an asset bubble with no fundamental change in the cash flows you can expect to get
Example 2: Corporation B is part of a national movement to increase the perceived value of a scarce good or product. The physical reality and practical use value of the item - if any - remain unchanged. But various persuasive techniques are used to herd the population in the direction of ownership.
As time goes by cash flows tend to fail to validate the debt commitments people enter in the course of the asset bubble, and when this becomes apparent the bubble pops.

It doesn't matter whether you think money values are "real values". Because money values can lead to lay-offs, which are real, and asset bubbles, and defaults (which are also real), one has to assume "money values" are "real" even if they are not "real values".

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 08:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
1. I meant the usual pressures to increase 'profitability' indefinitely.

This seems to have been happening since the 70s, and it hasn't necessarily coincided with recession. (Not immediately, anyway.)

2. The point is that the model should predict explicitly that lay-offs, bubbles and defaults are a form of illth. Among other kinds of illth.

You can't run an economy by counting beans and trying to create differential equations for bean flow. Even if it doesn't matter that some of the beans are imaginary, you still need a model that accounts for experiences and physical effects first, and doesn't assume that the beans are the first order reality and everything else is imaginary.

Currently models seem to assume that cash flows are primary, and reality is imaginary, which seems a rather odd way to be approaching the problem.

As JakeS says, there's an assumption that more profit, more GDP and bigger numbers on the Dow are equal to better experiences, and an assumption that this is somehow an objective truth, and not based on a very biased political and moral world view.

I'm not convinced you can change the morals and the politics by tinkering with the numbers.

The point Chris is trying to make - and I agree with theory, but not with his implementation - is that models that assume something called 'debt' exists are making moral assumptions.

Those assumptions are arbitrary and open to question.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 09:27:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
The point Chris is trying to make - and I agree with theory, but not with his implementation - is that models that assume something called 'debt' exists are making moral assumptions.

There is a moral case against debt but I have deliberately tried to put that to one side.

My case against debt is that it is sub-optimal in terms of sharing risk and reward, and I say the same about 'free' (ie gratis) limited liability. I speculate therefore that ethical may well be optimal, but I don't recall (willingly) getting into moral arguments.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 at 10:43:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
models that assume something called 'debt' exists

Um, 'debt' exists right there in contract law.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 04:54:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The concept of slavery used to exist in contract law too, but it's no longer accepted as a suitable model for moral behaviour.

Law is a codification of prevailing morality, not an objective truth - although like economics, it pretends otherwise.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:04:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here and now, though, exploring an economics without debt contracts is science-fiction. But, in fact, that is exactly what standard economics does.

So if we want to understand the here and now we have to understand debt contracts and their economic impact.

If you want to theorise about hypothetical instututional structures, be my guest.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:13:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're trying to make an argument from precedent - we have X therefore we must have X, and can only understand X in its own terms.

Can you explain slavery by looking at the laws that supported it?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:18:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, actually.

Minsky actually writes an economic theory that explains what we observe. Steve Keen is working on explicit dynamical equations to do simulations based on it. The theory is based on understanding the effect of debt contracts denominated in nominal (not 'real') money values.

Standard economics can't explain what's going on except as an "exogenous shock".

And you come and tell us that we don't need an economics of debt contracts to understand what's going on.

Minsky doesn't do it by means of cultural anthropology, whereas standard economics is just religion.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:24:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We don't need to understand what's going on. We need to stop doing it.

It's nice that Minsky knew what was going on ahead of time, but a lot of other people who aren't nearly as economically sanctified seem to have been able to predict the last melt-down too.

Which isn't really that difficult, considering similar melt-downs have been happening since at least the 15th century, often for congruent reasons.

Why did Minsky's modelling not make any difference to the outcome?

Could that have been because of the politics?

So shall we pretend that politics and morality don't matter as long as we have some differential equations that can Explain Everything™?

Excuse my scepticism, but I'll be more convinced when I see this making a real difference to policy.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:51:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not about a theory of everything.

But anyway, we're agreed that the problem is not one of economics but of politics. And one of the most important rhetorical/political tools is to obscure the role of the financial sector in economics, focusing on "the real economy". "Real business cycle" theory is a way of blaming the unemployed for taking an unpaid vacation. The reason these (IMHO) correct theories are being ignored is precisely that they are 1) correct; 2) politically inconvenient. So don't tell me that the fact that they are correct doesn't matter. There has to be a role in politics for actually having the right information about what is going on and how.

And Minsky is not sanctified, he was studiously ignored and now he's being misrepresented (his work is not "prescient" - writing an economic history of the US 1960-1980 in 1986 is anything but - and it is not about "minsky moments" it's about fiscal policy, monetary policy, banking supervision, and so on. Precisely the kind of things the serious people need to get right but don't).

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:59:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Currently models seem to assume that cash flows are primary, and reality is imaginary, which seems a rather odd way to be approaching the problem.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your appeals to "reality" (especially "real value") sound to me like hidden variables in quantum mechanics.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 04:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem here is not so much that cash flows do not map to physical reality in a straightforward way. The problem is that cash flows are, in all conventional economic models, presumed to map to physical transactions and physical flows of goods in a straightforward way.

In other words, cash flows are important to analyse in their own right, but not the way economists think and not for the reasons economists normally assume.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 06:12:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not unrelated: my Keynes and the monetarization of economics from July 16th, 2006. In it I quote Keynes' argument to do without real GDP and price level and use only nominal quantities because, after all, cash flows and (more importantly, from Minsky's point of view 50 years later) debt contracts are denominated in money and the nominal, not "real", value is what determines its legal impact (which is what has visible consequences in the real world).

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 06:44:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's 180 degrees away from what's happening here.

The difference is that hidden variables in QM won't kill you if you ignore them.

In economics, political and physical externalities can, and will.

Physical and natural processes don't care about cash flow. And economies are physical first, then moral and political, then abstracted and symbolic, and only then can you think about them financially.

You can only make cash flows primary by writing all of those preceding elements out of a model.

Do you really want to do that?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:13:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And economies are physical first, then moral and political, then abstracted and symbolic, and only then can you think about them financially.

Do you really claim you can do that? What are you doing blogging when you could be revolutionizing social science?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:15:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you really claim you can do the economic equivalent?

Why are you blogging when you could get a job with a think tank doing that?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:25:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I claim it's been/being done by certain economists the mainstream is busy ignoring.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 07:28:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
What are you doing blogging when you could be revolutionizing social science?

um, revolutionizing social science through blogging?

surreal dialogue, lol.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 at 10:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't believe my leftist friends who say this is a wonderful opportunity for the Left. That's the tragedy of the Left. There may be hundreds of protest movements against global capitalism but there is no alternative proposal. A majority of the leftists today want global capitalism with a human face.
There wasn't a credible or even coherent left alternative waiting in the wings. In a crisis the dominant meme may be replaced by a sub-dominant one, but it has to be there in the collective consciousness in the first place, and it wasn't.

So, the left will not make gains in this crisis and the post-crisis will be worse. A coherent and credible left alternative needs to be put in place for the next crisis, which may follow in relatively short order given that the right will come reinforced out of the current crisis.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 11th, 2010 at 06:42:22 AM EST


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