The pro-labor Progressives for Immigration Reform

by fairleft
Wed Mar 10th, 2010 at 05:03:16 PM EST

Progressives for Immigration Reform (PFIR) might be a good website, we'll see. It certainly has a pro-labor perspective, advocating tightening up immigration during this huge unemployment, de-unionization, and low wages crisis in the U.S. It includes a blog, which quotes this response to an editorial in the New York Times advocating blanket amnesty and increased levels of immigration:

Massive immigration to this country was a great boon and added to the richness of our culture. That time is past however. We now have millions of Americans with no jobs and millions more with jobs holding no future. The outsourcing of jobs and the importing of more and more foreign workers has stripped the average American of supporting a family in a decent lifestyle without descending into debt. It has made a college education almost worthless for many.

Now is not the time to talk about what a boon to America millions of immigrants are. We are becoming a nation of peasants; we are becoming more and more like the countries that immigrants flee. What we need to do now is put a moratorium on all legal immigration, curb illegal immigration, stop the use of H1-B, and other work visas, and concentrate on putting Americans back to work in good jobs.

People like Mayor Bloomberg, who live up in the stratosphere, can wax poetic all they want about immigrants, but it will cut no ice with the average American who has been made to feel like an outcast in his/her own land. The upper classes have to learn that they must pay people a living wage, and stop trying to get something for nothing. The rich in this country run the government and enjoy the lowest tax rates in the world. If they want slave labor too, let them move to the third world.

Carole A Dunn
Ocean Springs, Mississippi

Some fiery populist and progressive anger, good stuff, but unfortunately leftists in the U.S. and I suppose in Europe are politically incorrect if they ally with it. It's probably a fireable offense in many jobs to be against mass immigration in a time of mass unemployment, because that pro-labor position . . .


. . . is assumed to be evidence of racism or wtf. Unfortunate and amazing, actually, cuz what could be more progressive than advocating for policy that would help raise wages for the working poor and working class?

How Does Immigration Impact American Labor?

. . . In the midst of the current economic crisis, growing numbers of Americans are being displaced by lower cost legal and illegal immigrant workers. Many businesses take advantage of illegal and cheap foreign labor as a way of reducing costs and increasing profits.

Of particular concern is the impact that continued large-scale importation of workers has on those Americans at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. According to the Current Population Survey (CPS), which is collected monthly by the Census Bureau for the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in Fiscal Year 2008, 1.45 million new immigrants gained legal authorization to work in the United States. In addition to these new, legal foreign workers, The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that during that same year, 7.7 million illegal aliens were employed in the United States. Nationally, some estimates for the number of American workers displaced by immigration each year are as high as two million.

Adding millions of newcomers to the work force creates unfair competition and reduces wages and the availability of jobs for all workers. It is essential that immigration policy consider the impacts that mass immigration has on native-born and legal American workers.

And no, I'm not saying lessening immigration is the number one thing to do for U.S. workers (or for European workers). There are more important things to do, but it is part of the pathway to empowering labor relative to management. Increased unionization is a more important pathway, but note the Obama administration in the U.S. has done less than nothing for workers in that respect. Bringing back tariffs to balance the competition with extremely low-wage exporting nations is another and very important way forward. Tightening immigration is simply one important part of a common sense taking care of the working class and working poor in the United States (and is what all industrialized nations used to do, in the 1940s thru 60s, when labor was much stronger politically). But, as usual and of course, neither big party in the U.S. cares about them.

P.S. -- I decided to diary about this after noticing that that otherwise very righteous organization, Adalah-NY, a pro-Palestinian human rights and activist group, also advocates for the same thing as the New York Times, blanket amnesty and increased immigration. I don't know why Adalah has decided to advocate mainly for Palestinians but also for cheap wages for big and small corporations, but it seems sure to alienate the U.S. working class and working poor from the group's central cause.

Also posted, in slightly altered form, at Pffugee Camp.

P.S 2: I'm apparently not allowed to post here anymore or temporarily, but I can update the diary content. I'll add the following, though I don't think I'll be successful in keeping low wages advocates on-topic rather than employing argument by distant association. Since that's all they have. In any case, here's labor economist Vernon Briggs:

"Immigration policy inevitably reflects a kind of national selfishness of which the major beneficiaries are the least fortunate among us." (Reder, 1963: 227)

Although seldom acknowledged when immigration policy is under consideration, there are significant social-justice issues at stake for the most needy in the resident population and labor force. Much of the rationale for the admission of immigrants in free societies ignores the impacts of their actions upon the labor market. Family reunification considerations, refugee admissions, political asylum approvals, responses to the ever-present pleas of some business organizations for unskilled workers, and the presence of illegal immigrants usually mean that a disproportionate number of the immigrant inflow are low skilled, poorly educated, and often have problems with the prevailing national language. As a consequence, it is the segment of the citizen labor force that is itself low skilled and poorly educated (that is, workers in the "secondary labor market," to use the jargon of labor economics) and those workers who have been marginalized by various social barriers (e.g., some specific segments of the population who have confronted discrimination, as well as inexperienced youths in general) that typically sustain the greatest adverse impacts of large immigrant inflows.

Too often immigration debates focus on the beneficiaries of immigration policies (that is, the immigrants themselves, employers, and sometimes consumers) while failing to acknowledge that there are always losers too, which is especially important since the losers are disproportionately those already on the bottom rungs of society's economic ladder as well as the taxpayers in general who often are required to support or to supplement the financial needs of unskilled immigrants and refugees. One of the strongest reasons for the existence of immigration policies that limit the number of immigrants is that they protect those citizen workers who are most vulnerable to the increased job and wage competition of immigrant entry. . . .

from

Immigration Policy in Free Societies: Are There Principles Involved or Is It All Politics?

By Vernon M. Briggs Jr.

November 2009

http://www.cis.org/immigration-principles

Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
I got your "blanket amnesty" right here, fucko.

So allow me to "re-educate" you.

Peddling front groups for nativist elements?  Really?

Others will note at the link above that "Progressives for Immigration Reform" is neither progressive nor for anything someone to the left of Tom Tancredo would consider reform.  It is a front group for John Tanton, who operates a network of anti-immigration groups and has been tied to the eugenicist and white supremacist movements.

And you have the gall to question others' progressive credentials here.

Some fiery populist and progressive anger, good stuff....

No, not good stuff.  Going after the issue of outsourcing is fine.  Going after trade policies that have killed jobs -- totally fine.

Blaming immigrants for the fact that people have lost jobs and looking at it as zero-sum?  Once you get beyond the trade issues, which have nothing to do with immigration reform, you get her real point:

Immigration was fine when my people came over, but letting the wetbacks in is wrecking the country.

Helpfully given away by her whining about being "made to feel like an outcast," which is pretty standard "THEY CAIN'T HAVE MAH CUHNTREH!" garbage on the right.

I'll add: And, yes, when I want to have a rational discussion on matters of economics and ethnicity, the first place I want to hear from is, of course, Mississippi.  This is like going to Jerusalem to gather opinions on Palestinian human rights.

What -- was Cletus from Birmingham unavailable?

Finally, I suggest you look up what actual unions have to say instead of what your wingnut friends tell you they should say.

And get some new sources.  Don't bring that racist shit in here.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Mar 10th, 2010 at 08:05:18 PM EST
Is that tone really necessary?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 10th, 2010 at 08:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably not, but is linking to white supremacists movement really a good thing here?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Mar 10th, 2010 at 08:12:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
, who tend to be 'overrepresented' in the working class, and the working poor. So you're 'anti-immigrants who are already here' if you favor continued large-scale immigration.

If you can say something in non-asshole-speak, please respond.

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Wed Mar 10th, 2010 at 10:50:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have trouble taking someone who uses terms like "blanket amnesty" as being someone with the interests of immigrants at heart.  I think you'll find among recent immigrants that there is a strongly pro-immigration sentiment.

As for "asshole-speak," you've, of course, not dealt with what I presented in my original comment, and I've no intention of engaging someone involved with hate groups in anything other than an entirely scornful way.

You can lecture me about being an asshole when you're not hoisting your links from the sheet-wearers.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
immigration. CIS in February, citing a Zogby poll:

In contrast to the leadership of many ethnic advocacy groups, most members of minority groups think immigration is too high.

*Hispanics: 56 percent said it is too high; 7 percent said too low; 14 percent just right.
*Asian-Americans: 57 percent said immigration is too high; 5 percent said too low; 18 percent just right.
*African-Americans: 68 percent said it is too high; 4 percent said too low; 14 percent just right.

Most members of minority groups do not feel that illegal immigration is caused by limits on legal immigration as many ethnic advocacy groups argue; instead, members feel it's due to a lack of enforcement.

*Hispanics: Just 20 percent said illegal immigration was caused by not letting in enough legal immigrants; 61 percent said inadequate enforcement.
*Asian-Americans: 19 percent said not enough legal immigration; 69 percent said inadequate enforcement.
*African-Americans: 16 percent said not enough legal immigration; 70 percent said inadequate enforcement.

Most members of minority groups feel that there are plenty of Americans available to fill unskilled jobs.

*Hispanics: 15 percent said legal immigration should be increased to fill unskilled jobs; 65 percent said there are plenty of Americans available to do unskilled jobs, employers just need to pay more.
*Asian-Americans: 19 percent said increase immigration; 65 percent said plenty of Americans are available.
*African-Americans: 6 percent said increase immigration; 81 percent said plenty of Americans are available.

http://cis.org/Minority-Views-Immigration

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 02:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're not seriously going to bring a Zogby online survey to me, are you?  These are the "polls" -- I, of course, use the term loosely -- that show statistically significant differences from his own telephone polls.  This is the poll that showed Obama's approval rating at 50/50 in March of 2009, when everybody else had him in the high-60s with disapprovals in the 10s and 20s.

The least reliable poll of 2008.  For good reason.

Do you know anything about polling?  I'm assuming not.

Compare with a real poll by Gallup.  You'll note most Americans are either satisfied with current immigration levels or would support more.

For purposes of re-education (since I have some background in how to do this): Note the absence of politically-loaded questions designed to lead the respondent to an answer -- answers the wingnuts who commissioned this abortion of a survey wanted -- in Gallup's survey, the use of random sampling, rotated questions, phone calls rather than a database of people who go out of their way to participate.

You know, all things professional pollsters use when their checks aren't being cut by Newsmax and pseudo-academics.

You might as well be posting one of those moronic web polls that cable channels take.  But at least those don't claim to be scientific.

Next.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:26:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
August 5, 2009
Americans Return to Tougher Immigration Stance

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122057/Americans-Return-Tougher-Immigration-Stance.aspx

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree fairleft hits all the shibboleths in one short diary...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 02:59:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
of racism. And so, the warning rating. If you sincerely think supporting restricted immigration during a deep recession is a 'racist' position, then support that characterization with evidence. Or, better yet, forget characterization and argue head on against my position.

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 02:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Considering I advocate free movement of people (open borders) as well as granting full social, economic and political right to all people on the basis of residence and not of nationality (yes, that means people should be able to vote and work, as well as stand for election and employ others, and have access to health care whether they're citizens or not) you're not going to convince me that
What we need to do now is put a moratorium on all legal immigration, curb illegal immigration, stop the use of H1-B, and other work visas
is a progressive position.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
at bottom. In any case, I don't disagree with your position as a long-term utopian position. Right now, in this real world, open borders creates a race-to-the-bottom on wages and is destructive overall to the economic welfare of 'bottom two-thirds' workers on both sides of the U.S. and other borders.

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:14:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps Drew's tone was not necessary, but I believe it was absolutely appropriate.  People SHOULD get angry at racist propaganda.  Thanks, Drew.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:22:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In addition, rating this comment troll qualifies as ratings abuse, though this one is possibly okay. However, starting with a warning rating would have been better.

Recommended reading:

New User Guide: What are comments' ratings and how do I use them?

1 is used to rate a comment "trollish", i.e. disruptive of dialogue, or grossly insulting, or really inappropriate. Such ratings should never be used to indicate that you disagree with the comment. If in doubt, wait until another member uses this thankfully seldom used warning.

2 is a warning that is used for comments that are unnecessarily aggressive or disruptive in their tone. Such ratings should never be used to indicate that you disagree with the comment. Again, if in doubt, wait and see what other members do. There are usually experienced members around to quickly spot such comments. Remember that you or the commenter might be having a bad day, you or the commenter might have misinterpreted something (very easy on a forum in English where many don't have English as first language), you or the commenter might have made a snark or bon mot the other didn't get. Also read the ETiquette. Count to 10 and think before using. Or ignore.



En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:50:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the the second of those is perhaps worthy of warning depending on how the blog comes down on the issue of tone.  But I'm fully comfortable with the substance of it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's simply labeling -- without any attempt to produce evidence -- as racist of a pro-labor and pro-working class approach to immigration.

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 02:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No - he did produce evidence.  As has been said already, your source for this diary is linked to John Tanton, a racist who runs a hate group.  Drew's link is to the Southern Poverty Law center, which tracks hate groups and the supremecist movement in the US.  From Drew's link:

But what, exactly, is Tanton's vision?

As long ago as 1988, when a series of internal 1986 documents known as the WITAN memos were leaked to the press, Tanton's bigoted attitudes have been known. In the memos, written to colleagues on the staff of FAIR, Tanton warned of a coming "Latin onslaught" and worried that high Latino birth rates would lead "the present majority to hand over its political power to a group that is simply more fertile." Tanton repeatedly demeaned Latinos in the memos, asking whether they would "bring with them the tradition of the mordida [bribe], the lack of involvement in public affairs" and also questioning Latinos' "educability."

Echoing his 19th-century nativist forebears who feared Catholic immigrants from Italy and Ireland, Tanton has often attacked Catholics in terms not so different from those used by the Klan and the Know-Nothing Party of the 1840s. In the WITAN memos, for instance, he worried that Latino immigrants would endanger the separation of church and state and undermine support for public schooling. Never one to miss a threatening and fertile Catholic, Tanton even reminded his colleagues, "Keep in mind that many of the Vietnamese coming in are also Catholic." The leaked memos caused an uproar. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Walter Cronkite quit the board of a group Tanton headed, U.S. English, after the memos became public in 1988. U.S. English Executive Director Linda Chavez -- a former Reagan Administration official and, later, a conservative commentator -- also left, calling Tanton's views "anti-Hispanic, anti-Catholic and not excusable."

So it's no simply labeling - Drew provided evidence.  His 'tone' was appropriate in his first comment where you MIGHT have a basis for troll-rating him in that comment.  Your other troll ratings in this thread are not acceptable.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and in case you're interested in the European angle from this same source, here's more:

In 1994, Tanton's Social Contract Press republished an openly racist French book, The Camp of the Saints, with Tanton writing that he was "honored" to republish the race war novel. What Tanton called a "prescient" book describes the takeover of France by "swarthy hordes" of Indians, "grotesque little beggars from the streets of Calcutta," who arrive in a desperate refugee flotilla. It attacks white liberals who, rather than turn the Indians away, "empty out all our hospital beds so that cholera-ridden and leprous wretches could sprawl between white sheets ... and cram our nurseries full of monster children." It explains how, after the Indians take over France, white women are sent to a "whorehouse for Hindus." In an afterword special to Tanton's edition of the novel, author Jean Raspail wrote about his fears that "the proliferation of other races dooms our race, my race, to extinction."

Tanton's view of the book he published? "We are indebted to Jean Raspail for his insights into the human condition, and for being 20 years ahead of this time. History will judge him more kindly than have some of his contemporaries."

Now tell me again how quoting this guy's groups are in any way acceptable to progressives?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indians!!??

I thought Europe was being taken over by Muslims. What's going on here?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:38:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tanton isn't associated with CIS or PFIR. Was he in the past, I think so. So what? Open eugenicists were associated with the founding and early presidency of the American Psychological Association. So what? Somebody provide evidence that CIS or PFIR have members of their management or boards of advisors that are in some way under the direction or thumb of John Tanton.

SPLC smear campaign purpose is to stifle debate  

After the collapse of the Senate amnesty bill in 2007, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) joined with the National Council of La Raza and others to launch a campaign to smear the three largest mainstream groups making a case for tighter enforcement and lower immigration. At the center of this campaign was the designation of the Federation for American Immigration Reform as a "hate group" and the spread of that taint to Numbers USA and the Center for Immigration Studies. The announced goal was to pressure journalists and policymakers not to meet or speak with these organizations. Touted as an effort to "stop the hate," it was a thinly disguised move to stifle debate.

http://cis.org/Announcments/SPLC-Immigration-Panel

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 06:00:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 06:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There were no links.

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
4-rated for unintentional humour.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here, from Drew's top level comment.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right and I was wrong, there was one link, to the SPLC evidence that John Tanton is a bad man. Tanton is not part of CIS, PFIR, and so an argument for his relevance here is needed, don't you think? There's no link to any evidence or argument against the argument presented in the diary, that restricting immigration in a time of severe unemployment is a good idea.

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:37:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why don't you post a diary that puts forward that point of view without reference to a crowd of badly cloaked racists? You're making yourself look racist by association.

I'd suggest that you keep in mind that  a good number of people here have no respect for national borders or nation states at all, so you'll need to take that into account. You should also keep in mind that you'll be needing evidence and a chain of logic to avoid getting skewered here.

Meanwhile, I don't see any prospect of this diary generating anything other than heat, so I'm closing comments in the most appallingly high-handed fashion you've ever seen.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:43:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tanton was a founder and first chairman of FAIR, as well as a founder of CIS.  But you sure sounded oddly sure of yourself there.

A bit rehearsed, actually.

Here's a good rundown of Tanton's work on PFIR.

But that name.  The staffing guy.  Roy Beck.

Roy Beck.  Roy Beck.  Roy Beck.

Now where have I heard that name before?

Oooooohhh, I remember:

That Roy Beck!  The one who's a higher-up in the Council of Conservative Citizens!

Wait, wait, you guys are gonna love this.

What is the Council of Conservative Citizens, you ask?

The Council of Conservative Citizens is the descendent of the -- wait for it...White Citizens' Councils.  Those of Klan-Era fame.

Lucy, joo go' sohm esplainin' to do....

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew linked to to the SPLC in his first sentence.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:31:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is to stifle debate. And why would they (and you) want to stifle debate? Because they know they'd lose on substance. The dangerously left populist and naturally popular position during a deep recession is for restricted immigration. But that's not popular with cheap-labor employing and 'race-to-the-bottom' globalization corporations, or with you and Migeru.

After the collapse of the Senate amnesty bill in 2007, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) joined with the National Council of La Raza and others to launch a campaign to smear the three largest mainstream groups making a case for tighter enforcement and lower immigration. At the center of this campaign was the designation of the Federation for American Immigration Reform as a "hate group" and the spread of that taint to Numbers USA and the Center for Immigration Studies. The announced goal was to pressure journalists and policymakers not to meet or speak with these organizations. Touted as an effort to "stop the hate," it was a thinly disguised move to stifle debate.

http://cis.org/Announcments/SPLC-Immigration-Panel


fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 02:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CIS was founded and funded by John Tanton, who founded and funded Federation for American Immigration Reform and is closely associated with Progressives For Immigration Reform. The CIS About Us page contains a long list of endorsements from almost entirely Republican pols, to whom we may add Phyllis Schafly, Frank Gaffney, William Bennett, Rich Lowry, John O'Sullivan...

Quoting from this nexus of rightwing anti-immigrationists is not doing your argument any good. It's hard to take it as a progressive point of view when you're backing it with cites from these people.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The English-as-national-language groups are also a pretty obvious giveaway on the wingnuttery here.  That's a bit extreme even among many Republicans.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the American Psychological Association was a eugenist and believer in forced sterilization:

Darwin's theory of evolution and Ernst Haeckel's recapitulation theory were large influences on Hall's career. These ideas prompted Hall to examine aspects of childhood development in order to learn about the inheritance of behavior. The subjective character of these studies made their validation impossible. His work also delved into controversial portrayals of the differences between women and men, as well as the concept of racial eugenics. . . .

Hall had no sympathy for the poor, the sick or those with developmental differences or disabilities. A firm believer in selective breeding and forced sterilization, Hall believed that any respect or charity toward those he viewed as physically, emotionally, or intellectually weak or "defective" simply interfered with the movement of natural selection toward the development of a super-race. Hall's social vision was a socialism of the right, a blueprint for the future German National Socialism that arose just a few years after his death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Stanley_Hall

In any case, Tanton appears to be the victim of a smear campaign, as I've noted elsewhere, and appears not to exercise any control over nor hold any office within CIS.

http://cis.org/About

What about the substance, that it is a good idea to restrict immigration during a period of very high unemployment? Seems like you're avoiding arguing on substance.

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
fairleft:
Tanton appears to be the victim of a smear campaign

If you're going to insist on that, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously enough to debate the idea?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A founder and first President of the American Psychological Association was a eugenist and believer in forced sterilization

I'm sorry, but I seem to have lost the thread of this.  I didn't see anyone here quote Stanley Hall as a role model, what did I miss?

Given that you're accusing others of avoiding arguing on substance, throwing out random comments about irrelevant and long-dead eugenicists seems a bit weird.  In fact, it could leave you open to accusations of trying to avoid answering the very specific points that have been made to you about Tanton.

by Sassafras on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's right.  The mean ol' lefties at the SPLC were just trying to silence them.

La Raza, too, now?  Oh, good.  We've got some Dobbsian crazy coming.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chicano-bashing is not racism, apparently.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course not.  It's only racism when the brown people do it in these people's minds.

Next he'll get on the "La Raza's name means The Race, and that means they're racists" nonsense.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How long before they mention the reconquista?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They already have.  C'mon, man.  Reconquista was a given once you knew it was FAIR-derivative. :)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'progressives' have no substantive argument against restricting immigration during a period of very high unemployment. Are you worried that unbiased readers here might have noticed that fact?

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You make no substantive argument for it that I can see. It's argument by assertion, as usual with you.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You keep throwing certain words out -- "pro-labor" chief among them -- in this very awkward way, like you've been told to say those words over and over again.  It's like reading these goofy Republicans yap about the "Democrat Party" (whatever that is) on television.

Awkward, like you don't even believe it, but that it pays the bills.

I's jess sayin'.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:39:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
dangerously left populist and naturally popular
Is that what you think you are?

Well, you're probably right. These things sound even better if you say them wearing a brown shirt.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think you needed to say that.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right, but it felt great.

In addition, the fellows at pffugee camp said it even more explicitly

But of course, the nazi mentality prefers to make scapegoats out of the powerless...

Yes, Failreft, I anticipated your hard right turn. Not that that was hard to see developing. Go for it. I wont make fun of you. Just disappear this bogus blognality and show up as someone else on the other side. This is exactly what happend on the "left" in 1920s-30s Germany. You think those millions of Nazi supporters just came out of nowhere?



En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm gonna defend Mig on this one.  If someone is going to diary right wing propaganda and use supremacist front groups as a source -- not to mention accusing the SPLC as engaging in a SMEAR campaign -- then mentioning brown shirts is not out of line.  Supremacist groups and rhetoric need to be met with strong disapproval, not merely a polite difference of opinion.  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To be fair, if five total minutes of googling turns up links to all of these groups, you can rest assured they're tied to neo-Nazi groups, almost undoubtedly directly and undoubtedly indirectly.

I'm sure the militias are in there somewhere, too, this being a Michigan-tied group.

It's a lot the same people making up these groups.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:30:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, y'all get on with flaming (fairleft does it too).

We can walk through afterwards and count the troll ratings.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I understand your desire for civil discourse in the case of good-faith disagreements, I don't get how you interpret a strong response to racist postings as 'flaming.'  Fairleft is the only one downrating anyone in this thread, which, frankly, doesn't bother me.  I'd be ashamed to stay silent or polite on this issue.  Flamewars can be destructive when engaged in over issues, but when it comes to racism on ET, then it seems to me counting the troll-ratings after is not a bad thing.  Should the community politely ignore it?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No call to be silent, or even polite, but it's perfectly possible to counter fairleft's nonsense with facts and arguments without needing to get into "brown shirt" territory. As for "flaming", I'm being anticipatory. Perhaps wrongly.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
obviously

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 02:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and working class Americans. We need to tighten up the U.S. labor market during this deep recession and force employers to raise wages.

(emphasis added)

Dirty Work: In-Sourcing American Jobs with H-2B Guestworkers
By David Seminara
February 2010

Americans don't want to mow your lawn. They don't want to serve you your lobster roll sandwich during your summer holiday in Maine. They won't drive the trucks that bring food to the grocery store you shop in, or chop down the trees that produce the paper you use, or perform at the circus you attend every summer. You'll also need the helping hand of a "temporary, seasonal" guestworker to help you get on the chair lift in Vail, and to learn how to ski or snowboard. Nor will Americans guard your swim club's pool, shovel the snow in your driveway, operate the rides at the amusement park you take your kids to, tidy up the hotel room you sleep in, or process the seafood you eat. Americans can't even be counted on to coach sports, or work construction jobs. American workers have grown soft, young people don't want to work, and the unemployed don't want to do much of anything strenuous these days.

These are the kind of flawed assumptions that have led to the creation and rapid growth of the H-2B visa program, which has resulted in more half a million jobs being filled by foreign guestworkers over the last five years, rather than Americans and immigrants already in the United States.

Despite the significant impact that the H-2B visa program has on American workers, the program receives scant media coverage compared to other guestworker categories. Issues surrounding the issuance of H-1B visas, for example, tend to receive far more media scrutiny because the beneficiaries and the victims are highly educated and often fall within the same social circles as journalists, and the topic of higher-paying skilled jobs is perceived to be more relevant to the kind of readership and viewership that advertisers desire. As the global recession continues to take its toll on the American economy, this is an opportune time to re-examine the H-2B program and to evaluate whether these jobs could be filled with people already in the United States. The goal of this report is to shed light on the poor conditions that H-2B guestworkers often toil in; to expose the damage that this program does to the most vulnerable sector of American workers: the poorly educated, students, minorities, and legal immigrants . . .

http://cis.org/h-2b-guestworkers

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 02:34:55 PM EST
Simple solution: just give them green cards.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also posted, in slightly altered form, at Pffugee Camp
You didn't get a better reception there than you did here, however I don't see you troll-rating any of these comments:
I know why Adalah has decided to advocate for immigrants and Palestinians

Because they are "righteous".
You, OTOH, are rightist.

This is exactly the sort of demonization of the poverty stricken and powerless that I have come to expect from a white supremicist teabagger like you.

Failreft. Paid disinfo or useless idiot?
No paystub = plausible deniability

Unfortunately, I find that failfake is one of the most boring writers in the history of the modern blogging era.

Failreft is a Lou Dobbs reftist?


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:12:42 PM EST


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]