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so.. what comes in America after the HCR vote...and how will it affect Europe...

by johnfire
Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 11:21:01 AM EST

so this is only going to be a short diary, but perhaps an important one. I dont know how many people here are following the debate, if you can call it that, over HCR reform in the US, but many extremists on the right hand side are either calling for violence against the government and Democrats if the bill passes, or are very close to advocating it. So what does this mean for America and Europe?

I expect some level of violence in America if and when the HCR bill passes. hopefully it will be rather like the violence that has already occurred, only isolated incidents such as the shooting at the Holocaust museum, or the murder of several police officers in different places by right wing extremists that believe the current administration wants to take away peoples guns etc, but I could honestly see much worse happening in some regions. America as a country is as divided right now, as any time in its history since the civil war, and many people on the right seem to be seeking any excuse to start using violence to achieve their ends.

My question is, will this have any effect on Europe, and if so what? if there is major violence in America, it would probably be a major drag on the economy, and would that have an effect here? thoughts? ideas?

I dont really have any answers, just questions.

here are some diary links, some of which include pictures of the kind of things the right wing is advocating against the country if HCR passes.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/20/202343/911

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/21/848024/-Right-Wing-Violence-Is-An-American-Tradition

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/3/20/848307/-Teabaggers-hurl-racist,-homophobic-slurs-at-Reps .-Lewis,-Frank,-Others-%28Updated-8x%29

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so.. what comes in America after the HCR vote...and how will it affect Europe... | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Tip jar (none / 1)

all thoughts and comments appreciated...

Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 11:24:54 AM EST

Improved healthcare, and a more marginalised Right (4.00 / 2)

Compared to the EU, the US has a unified state, a younger and growing population, together with lower dependency ratios and a greater fund of natural resources. Thus one would expect faster economic growth together with faster technological and social innovation.

Somehow this doesn't quite seem to be happening to the degree that one might expect. I could hypothesise that imperial over-reach, characterised by unwinnable or badly fought wars, a dysfunctional polity and poorly developed public social, educational and healthcare services result in very considerable economic inefficiencies together with an even greater human development deficit.

Violence in the US may exacerbate this, but when viewed from a European perspective, what's new? The civil rights era was also marked by violence - it may now just have a slightly different target population.

In my view any resort to violence by the right will just underline their impotence and serve to marginalise them further, but I could be wrong. It's easier to be so dispassionate from 3000 miles away.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 03:42:52 PM EST

Re: Improved healthcare, (none / 1)

I think Frank has a good point when he notes that the civil rights movement was a time of considerable unrest, yet the USA survived.

Whether there will be a rise in targeted terrorist violence where govt buildings and representatives are sought out is difficult to say. I hope not, but t the moment your media are playing a very dangerous game of giving the lunatic fringe so much opportunity to speak as if theirs was a relevant input. When journalistic balance means giving equal space to lies as to truth, your entire political culture is contaminated....

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 05:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (4.00 / 2)

From here:

The demographic breakdowns: Tea Party activists are 60 percent male and 80 percent white, with 77 percent of them self-identifying as "conservatives" and 44 percent identifying as "Republicans." While 47 percent of Americans report making less than $50,000 a year, only 26 percent of Tea Party activists make that little, while 34 percent make $75,000 or more. The major way in which this movement differs from the Republican Party's makeup is in geography. Only 31 percent live in the South. Twenty-nine percent live in the Midwest, and 28 percent live in the West. Only in the Northeast, where 13 percent of activists live, are they relatively underrepresented (19 percent of all poll respondents live there).

I didn't expect the age breakdown:

18-29 20% (Tea Party Activists) 20% (All Respondents)
30-49 40% to 35%
50-64 29% to 27%
65+ 12% - 17%

Suggesting these yahoos are going to be around for a long, long, time.

The semi-good news is they appear to be spread-out across the country and are politically aligned within/to the Republican Party. Their numbers suggest, to me, they are numerous enough to 'throw' GOP primaries to their candidate. Their numbers are low enough that should their candidate win it is doubtful that candidate would win the general - as we saw in the NY-23 by-election.

Males 18 to 29 are the most violent demographic and they are easily manipulated into violence. I would not be surprised if a wave of violence following HCR passage, if it does pass, by this group a la Timothy McVeigh. The difference would - could - be these people lack his military training suggesting outbreaks would be more "lynch mob" than terrorist.

But I don't know that.

What is certain, to me, is the preconditions for a guerrilla terrorist campaign exist in the US. The Tea Bag demographic provides enough of a support group or base for a considerable number of operatives. What they don't have (I hope) is access to the logistics organization required to keep them in the field.

If they do and enough of them decide to go actively hostile ... things could get real ugly real fast here.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 06:38:08 PM EST

Re: so.. what comes in America (4.00 / 4)

Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I don't think violence is likely because most of them will be cowards. Their idea of heroics will be watching a Chuck Norris movie and saying 'Fuck, yeah!' a lot.

If real shooting starts, with real pain, you won't see them for dust.

A tiny, tiny proportion may graduate to blowing actual shit up, but they'll be the most psychotic ones, and not representative of the majority.

I lurk on some of the wacko boards just to see what the crazies are zeitgeisting, and they're not particularly unanimous about anything much - not even about HCR.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 06:50:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (none / 0)

I'm only saying the preconditions exist.

If they do escalate and if we go by history it will be more KKK than IRA.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 07:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (none / 1)

The more that these guys go on, the more that I think that the US needs something like the provision in the German Basic Law that forbids anti-system parties from participating in politics. The idea being that if you refuse to operate within the rules of the system, you have no right to take power in it. It would take a constitutional amendment, but it would be well worth it.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 07:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (4.00 / 2)

I'd prefer to keep 'em within the System. As long as they think they can impose their demands through "legitimate" political action the less the incentive to go terrorist.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 08:09:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Under Resident Bush, ... (none / 0)

... the Democratic Party would have been in danger of being certified as an anti-system party.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 10:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Under Resident Bush, ... (4.00 / 4)

Daily Kos wasn't known for threatening violence.

Violent fantasies seem very much like a tea bagger hobby.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 07:53:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Under Resident Bush, ... (none / 0)

Yes, terrorism.... as defined under the law of most US States and the Federal government is the use/threat of violence in order to influence public opinion.

Individuals/organizations that threaten the use of violence to influence public opinion have no place in a democracy. And the trick with the Germans, is that they have a strong tradition of a civil service that defends democracy. The bureaucracy there isn't politicized, there's the idea of an independent public interest that supercedes that of any one party.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 10:25:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Under Resident Bush, ... (none / 1)

And the trick with the Germans, is that they have a strong tradition of a civil service that defends democracy. The bureaucracy there isn't politicized, there's the idea of an independent public interest that supercedes that of any one party.

Whereas Americans generally have a hard time telling the difference between nonpartisan and bipartisan.

The brainless should not be in banking -- Willem Buiter

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 10:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Under Resident Bush, ... (none / 0)

Whereas Americans generally have a hard time telling the difference between nonpartisan and bipartisan.

Jesus, ain't that the truth. Of course the recognition that there is an independent public interest implies that society does in fact exist.

And for the neo-liberals in charge (don't think that Democrats are exempt from this) society is like Santa Claus. It only exists if you believe in it.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 11:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Current Sociology of the USA (none / 0)

Seems to be based on runaway self-centeredness, caused by WWII parents spoiling their children, and then from consumerism overcoming Depression caution. Really, just Marx made true.

To align culture with our nature is our purpose.

by ormondotvos (ormond no spam lmi net no spam) on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 07:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is true. (none / 0)

It is also true that waterboarding is torture. Truth got in the way of what Resident Bush's regime wanted to do?

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 10:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is true. (none / 1)

It is also true that waterboarding is torture. Truth got in the way of what Resident Bush's regime wanted to do?

And that's precisely why the Bush administration argued that a legal basis for this treatment existed because the individuals against whom it was used fell under the category of "unlawful combatants" and thus were not afforded the protections provided by the Geneva Conventions. Note that even where the Bush administration intended to break the spirit of the law, they were forced to find a basis for their actions in the word of the law. This shows how having a law that is independent of the political process it regulates constrains action.

The point being that if there was a constitutional provision to ban organizations that employ political violence or the threat of it, groups like the teabaggers wouldn't have Republican congressperson speaking at their rallies. They would be marginalized.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 11:21:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is true. (4.00 / 3)

Not only is there no constitutional provision to ban violence, but violence is supposedly a patriotic right and duty against an evil and tyrannical etc etc etc government.

Tea bagger knuckle-draggers can persuade themselves that shooting the Pres is a patriotic thing to do.

It's really a constitutional issue - the constitution explicitly frames violence as a legitimate tool of policy.

This is one of the key differences between the US and Europe. I don't think Lisbon, for all of its flaws, suggests that armed overthrow of Brussels is in any way a good potential plan.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 01:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is true. (none / 1)

This shows how having a law that is independent of the political process it regulates constrains action.

How has the MCA to remove jurisdiction to military tribunal, circumscribe civil litigation, and define "enhanced interrogation techniques" constrained lawful treatment of persons ("alien unpriviledged belligerents") in US custody, actually?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 05:44:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But note, nothing forced them ... (none / 0)

... to actually find a basis for their actions in the word of the law, they were only forced to go through the motions of pretending to find a basis for their actions in the word of the law.

Why would there be any doubt that if the hypothetical constitutional provision existed, they would have used it as an enemies list? Remember that they added, for example, green activists and advocates of non-violence on terrorist watchlists after 9-11.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 05:59:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Violence is NOT constitutionally permitted. (none / 0)

Free speech is, but inciting to riot, or riot itself, are not permitted actions.

"advocacy of violent overthrow of the government" is a good phrase to google.

From Yates:

"[T]hat indoctrination of a group in preparation for future violent action, as well as exhortation to immediate action, by advocacy found to be directed to "action for the accomplishment" of forcible overthrow, [directed] to violence "as a rule or principle of action," and employing "language of incitement," ... is not constitutionally protected when the group is of sufficient size and cohesiveness, is sufficiently oriented towards action, and other circumstances are such as reasonably to justify apprehension that action will occur. (p. 321)"

http://www.answers.com/topic/yates-v-united-states

To align culture with our nature is our purpose.

by ormondotvos (ormond no spam lmi net no spam) on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 07:35:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (none / 1)

I'm not really happy with the German example. The last effort to forbid the NPD failed because it was infiltrated up to its highest levels by the secret service.
And conversely being a socialist is enough to attract attention from the Verfassungsschutz.

Parteien: Verfassungsschutz behält Linkspartei unter Beobachtung - Nachrichten - DerWesten

Der Präsident des Bundesamtes für Verfassungsschutz (BfV), Heinz Fromm, hält eine Beobachtung der Partei Die Linke weiterhin für erforderlich. Der Partei gehörten immer noch ,,offen extremistische Zusammenschlüsse wie die Kommunistische Plattform" an, sagte Fromm der Tageszeitung ,,Die Welt" vom Montag. In programmatischen Aussagen sei zudem nach wie vor von einer ,,Veränderung der Eigentums- und Herrschaftsverhältnisse" die Rede.

You will note that the Left is not accused of political violence but of planning to change the distribution of property.

Wait this is important. Someone is wrong on the Internet.

by generic on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 10:24:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (none / 0)

I concur. I'm actually much more worried what the DHS could do with a threat of domestic terrorism. Now possible to liberal cheers.

Wait this is important. Someone is wrong on the Internet.

by generic on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 09:53:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (none / 0)

possibly

Wait this is important. Someone is wrong on the Internet.

by generic on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 09:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (none / 1)

What is certain, to me, is the preconditions for a guerrilla terrorist campaign exist in the US.

I don't mean to be optimistic, but a true guerrilla campaign is impossible, because there is no resource base for it. (Guerrillas got to eat, but the food supply is in corporate hands, for example.)

Pseudo-guerrillas, funded and protected by major corporations is another matter--and, yeah, I expect that.

Or drug wars, supported by drug cartels, as in Mexico, are also possible. A miniature drug war pursued by a drug dealing motorcycle gang in a remote part of California, may well be happening right now.

The Teabaggers are a publicity/propaganda stunt, directed by corporate interests--seemingly without the knowledge of the participants. In short, tools. They may cause effective disruption, but are not up to any real fighting.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 01:31:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America (none / 0)

I really don't think corporations are funding or driving the Tea Party. That seems to attribute to intelligence what can easily be explained by emotion.

Americans are taught to avoid political ANALYSIS at all costs. They recoil from it like it was a snake or scorpion. It's taught from kindergarten, using the desire to have fake harmony and group cohesion.

When that teaching goes awry, you get this type of intolerant ranting against the Other.

Thank you, liberal educationists. Every child a winner, all dissidents go sit in the corner.

To align culture with our nature is our purpose.

by ormondotvos (ormond no spam lmi net no spam) on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 07:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The emotions are real, yes (none / 0)

But as you say, there is very little thinking going on.

That is okay: There are folks to do your thinking for you. That is where the corporations come in.

I do not say this on my own surmise. The Exile has been following the Tea Party from the outset. The case they make is that it is astroturf. (Astroturf, which literally is artificial grass, refers to seemingly popular movements that are actually centrally organized or funded. In the US it is certainly the new way of doing politics, and cuts out the messiness of actual popular movements.)

I know of nothing that gainsays their analysis.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Fri Apr 2nd, 2010 at 01:08:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America after the HCR vote (none / 0)

Conservative Blogger Urges Obama Assassination on Twitter - DailyFinance

As Congress entered the final round of debate Sunday over the controversial health insurance reform bill, a self-described conservative blogger used his public Twitter account to urge the assassination of President Barack Obama. U.S. Secret Service spokesperson Max Milien confirms to DailyFinance: "We are aware of the actual posting and are actively investigating." A request for comment from a Twitter spokesperson hasn't been returned.

As the blog Jezebel has reported, Soloman (Solly) Forell, apparently enraged by the impending passage of the health insurance reform bill, used his Twitter account to call for the assassination of Barack Obama, while also tweeting that since the country survived the assassinations of Lincoln and Kennedy, "we'll surely get over" this one, too.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 07:34:47 PM EST

Re: so.. what comes in America after the HCR vote (none / 0)

I did write, during the campaign, if Obama got elected he would be "a dead man walking." I didn't write that as a bit of hyperbole or as a metaphor. I meant it as an accurate assessment of the US socio-political and cultural environment.

Racism is deeply embedded in the US and among certain segments of the US population it's a given.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 08:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America after the HCR vote (4.00 / 3)

Yes, you did write it as a bit of hyperbole. Here's how you exaggerate the importance of Mr Obama's race in the minds of the great number of psychopaths running around the US: You can't apparently imagine how the other 35 million black people are targets, too, for retribution and a lot easier any day to kill, metaphorically and literally, than Mr Obama ever was or will be.

You guys try working that fact into your tea bagger fantasies.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 06:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so.. what comes in America after the HCR vote (none / 0)

The American example, for hundreds of years, is that we kill those who don't agree to our plans. Iran is only the latest example.

Tea Partiers often quote Jefferson that the tree of liberty grows on the blood of patriots and tyrants.

To align culture with our nature is our purpose.

by ormondotvos (ormond no spam lmi net no spam) on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 08:00:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what comes in America after the HCR vote. (4.00 / 2)

There was probably similar hostilities when Johnson passed Medicare and the spector of socialism rose its head.

With HCR passage, America will just become a little more like the social democracies of Europe, and slowly but surely we will have a socialized medical care system in the USA. Long coming. I can only imagine the tens of thousands of people who have died as a consequence of our corporate medical system. Of course we are not there yet. But give us time.

by shergald on Sun Mar 21st, 2010 at 10:39:11 PM EST

Prof Igor Panarin's (none / 0)

Seven regions of the former United States!

by Lasthorseman on Mon Mar 22nd, 2010 at 06:40:56 PM EST

Even in a Fox news poll (none / 1)

Health care reform is seen as a good thing

FOXNews.com - Is Health Care Bill a Victory for America?

President Obama called the House passage of a health care reform bill a "victory for the American people." Do you agree?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 24th, 2010 at 11:46:34 AM EST

This may be the first time (4.00 / 2)

in world history that a national government has mandated that people turn over their money to private, for-profit corporations, as a requirement of mere existence.

This is all about the next asset bubble--the medical industry. With money pouring in, values in the industry are sure to rise, masking the fact that the economy is no longer producing any useful work whatever.

How cool is that?

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Mar 24th, 2010 at 01:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This may be the first time (4.00 / 2)

Meh. Tax farming to private persons was quite common in Modern Europe. And the Fermiers Généraux did turn in a generally nice profit.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 at 03:28:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Governance implies control. (none / 0)

Civilization and its discontents.

To align culture with our nature is our purpose.

by ormondotvos (ormond no spam lmi net no spam) on Wed Mar 31st, 2010 at 08:12:14 PM EST

so.. what comes in America after the HCR vote...and how will it affect Europe... | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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