Time for a Change 3

by ChrisCook
Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 09:29:33 AM EST

In answer to the following question on this Labour List post Labour needs a better answer on the Deficit

Is there something inherent within a capitalistic framework that is harmful/toxic to society as a whole?

I answered the following....


The answer is yes.

Our financial system is 'deficit-based' upon a value vacuum.

Banks lend money into existence by creating, out of thin air, interest-bearing loans and worse than this, they spend money into existence on asset purchases (eg gilts); wages; other costs; and dividends to shareholders.

This bank credit = conventional money is then reflected by the 'demand deposits' in the system which are made by the recipients of the spending or lending.

There is absolutely no reason at all why a government - whether it be a Treasury directly, or a Central Bank as its agent - should not spend money into existence.

In fact that is exactly what Quantitative Easing as currently practised actually is doing. The problem is that this QE money is not being spent in the real economy but rather on buying financial assets. So QE remains in the virtual FIRE (Finance, Insurance and Real Estate) economy rather than entering the real economy.

The Big Lie - which is a key assumption underpinning Economics and the entire narrative which has been drilled into us for years - is that private banks are necessary to create 'scarce' credit.

They are not.

Public credit can and should be created directly and spent on productive assets - such as affordable housing; renewable energy; a new generation of transport infrastructure - and above all on training a new generation of Britons capable of building these assets and operating them.

This public credit creation should be professionally managed by professional service providers with a stake in the outcome, anad supervised accountably by a Monetary Authority.

Once the productive assets and citizens are in place, the productive assets may be refinanced by long term investment, and the citizens may be taxed, and in both cases the QE which funded the development may be retired and recycled.

A system based upon compounding debt and private property in commons such as land can only end in one way, and that is the unsustainable concentration of wealth we now have.

It really is Time For a Change.

This change will not come from within, but I believe that it can and will come through the rapid evolution and implementation of complementary financing, and refinancing, mechanisms.

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Let's take this further here. You've proposed what I think is a good idea -- replacing bank provided credit with state provided credit, and retaining the independent monetary authority inherent in central banks to keep states honest about their powers to extend credit.  I'm not sure that basing the credit in energy or land adds anything, however.  The state itself can be an adequate guarantor of the value of credit because states need to collect taxes and such credit can serve as payment for taxes if returned to the issuing state, guaranteeing value as well as any commodity or piece of land can.  

But you've argued as well that you see this system overtaking the current bank-based system. (Which is not a way of doing things that economic theory has ever  invested any real support, btw. Friedman advocated getting rid of banking and letting businesses come up with their own way of managing risk and credit, for example.)  This means that you think it can be done by private sources without the need for state participation. So how would would private individuals, right now, today, go about funding investment in an enterprise using this alternative means without bank-based credit.

by santiago on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 04:23:12 PM EST
santiago:
I'm not sure that basing the credit in energy or land adds anything, however.

As an advocate of the taxation of privileged use of the commons of Location (a tax on land rental values) and of the privileged use of non-renewable resources (eg a carbon levy) then in fact the credit would be based (via the State as intermediary) upon these sources of value. The taxation of unearned income from rents, means that taxation of earned income may be commensurately lower.

The credit necessary for the circulation of goods and services is - in my analysis - based in large part upon 'Knowledge' (subjective knowledge is a component of 'Labour' while objective knowledge may be 'intellectual property').

The mechanism I advocate is the 'Guarantee Society'  which is simply a mutual guarantee agreement of bilateral credit, backed if necessary by provisions made into a default 'pool'.

No deposits are in fact necessary for such credit - the Swiss WIR credit clearing/ barter system demonstrates that empirically, as will an upcoming system in South America, where invoices will be used to settle other invoices with the central bank as intermediary.

In fact, disintermediating banks - and migrating them to service provision - would only be a transitional step on the way to a genuine peer to peer financing architecture, which will disintermediate the State as well - or maybe create a participative State.


Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 05:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what do you need to start such a system going? Modern banking, for example, arguably didn't really need the state to enact any new policies to get going. In fact, it's private development helped the modern state to come into existence.  

I actually happen to have a medium sized farm in what may be the same South American country you're talking about, but regardless, if I wanted to develop that farm, how, specifically and mechanically, could I opt today to use the methods of funding investments that you propose, or do I have to wait for the state to create supportive conditions first?  

by santiago on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 06:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no need to wait for the State, although participation by a local municipality would undoubtedly kick-start things.

Obviously you couldn't do it on your own, but you could provide liquidity in a new system based upon your production, and the use value of your land and buildings etc.

You could develop the farm by entering into revenue-sharing and/or production-sharing 'capital partnership' agreements with suitable partners. eg your current employees become a co-operative with an 'equity share' in production.

Secondly you could participate in - and promote the development of - a local Guarantee Society.

The components of this are:

(a) willing participants;

(b) a Value Standard - probably the dollar for as long as people trust it. NB - no dollars change hands: what happens is that money's worth, eg of your fruit, changes hands on credit terms priced  by reference to the dollar;

(c) an accounting system - pretty trivial;

(d) a service-provider-formerly-known-as-a-bank;

(e) an agreement.

A unit of currency would be useful. Here you might find that renewable energy projects on your land eg biomass; hydro could be a source.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 06:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, sounds good so far.  But one of your theses has been that this way of doing things will overtake and supplant the current way of doing things through capitalists and banks -- that markets for capital themselves will dictate the exit of banks and their replacement by this new arrangement. If true, that's great, but we need a path to get from here to there without depending on the state to do it (anther of your theses).  So, why and how would I, as a farmer in a country where alternative arrangements are viewed positively right now in official discourse, get involved with another group offering a form a financing my investment instead of just going to traditional money lenders?

More questions:

Why would I have to set up a cooperative with my workers?  Is that really necessary to get this going, or just a progressive hand out to them?  (And one they are likely to be wary of, given the security of being paid weekly in dollars instead of the risky alternative of being a shareholder.)

Willing participants:  This would seem to require an organizer, aka a salesperson, to convince them to be willing. Are you taking into account how to compensate this particular effort and skill set?

Service provide formerly known as banks:  What exactly would be the service they would be providing in this arrangement, and how much do you expect they would have to be compensated?

Is the whole system really less expensive/more beneficial to me than just going to traditional money lending sources? Where do you identify the savings/benefits and how can we quantify them to compare them to traditional means that entrepreneurs have to finance their investments?

by santiago on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
So, why and how would I, as a farmer in a country where alternative arrangements are viewed positively right now in official discourse, get involved with another group offering a form a financing my investment instead of just going to traditional money lenders?

You currently borrow money - if you can - at interest in order to buy goods and services you need.

In the 'guarantee society' model your suppliers provide the goods and services on interest-free credit terms, and you give them your IOU based upon your capacity to provide 'money's worth' at some point in the future.

The result is that there are open 'bilateral' credit balances between you and your suppliers which are supported by the 'guarantee society' agreement.

Both you, and they, pay an amount into a 'default fund' in common ownership (a custodian) for as long as you have a positive or negative balance. This is a payment for the use of the collective guarantee.

Participants also pay a service charge to a service-provider-formerly-known-as-a-bank who administers the system; sets guarantee limits for sellers and buyers; manages defaults.

Essentially the outcome is an open-ended overdraft at the option of the finance user. Defaults can only be in respect of exceeding the credit/guarantee limit although it would be possible to mandate - in addition to the guarantee charge and service charge - a minimum payment.

Those with debit balances may settle balances bilaterally by providing money or money's worth to suppliers.

Those with credit balances have an incentive to spend, since they pay for the use of the guarantee as well.

This is of course the same Gesellian approach proposed by Keynes for positive AND negative Bancor balances in his Bancor/ International Clearing Union, except that there was a central issuer of 'fiat' Bancors.

Alternatively, your suppliers may in turn obtain goods and services elsewhere - thereby creating their own debit balances - and it is possible then for settlement 'chains' to take place eg A pays B pays C pays D pays A - which are identified by 'clearing agent' software like Ripple Pay.

This sort of settlement chain is precisely what happens now in Brent/BFOE forward crude oil contracts upon expiry when 'open' bilateral forward contracts are often netted out in this way. So called Brent Daisy Chains have been known to reach 100 links.

Such a guarantee society system could be started tomorrow.

Why would I have to set up a cooperative with my workers?  Is that really necessary to get this going, or just a progressive hand out to them?

At the moment your managers and staff are costs: I am not sure what incentives they have beyond a salary.

I don't see it as a 'hand out' if you both cut your overheads and give them the incentive of an equity share in the production. In a  bad year you share the pain, but conversely you don't get to keep all the fruits of a good year.

But my experience is that true 'co-ownership' will appeal to your staff as much as it does to (say) the John Lewis Partnership staff in the UK. I suspect the productivity will greatly increase if everyone feels they have genuine stake.

given the security of being paid weekly in dollars instead of the risky alternative of being a shareholder

It's not a matter of 'either/or'. Some (eg youngsters with no family) may opt to have a pure equity share: others may require a guaranteed minimum - which would come at the expense of part of their equity share.

It's entirely up to them and you to what extent they would opt in.

What exactly would be the service they would be providing in this arrangement, and how much do you expect they would have to be compensated?

See above. They would get agreed (on an 'open book' basis) costs covered, and would then receive a profit/surplus element paid from the bonus/ pool and based upon default experience.

Where do you identify the savings/benefits and how can we quantify them to compare them to traditional means that entrepreneurs have to finance their investments?

Firstly, there is no compound interest in the model.

Second, no deposits etc are required, and banking regulation (and all the crap that goes with it) does not come into it.

Third, the interests of the service provider are aligned with those of the service user, but it is not easy to quantify the benefit. Probably excessive management costs and empire building will be less likely.

Let's say a 1% charge is made per month to positive and negative balances. This would be pooled; then a % share would go to the service provider, and the balance would be distributed as a dividend to guarantee society members as they see fit.

This has the effect of compensating those who use less credit, but who still provide the guarantee.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 04:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. This makes it clearer. I'll do the math and report back here later. In the meantime,
I want to make sure we separate the "touchy feely" stuff from what is actually required to make the system work for an entrepreneur with a practical need for investment resources which he can't provide himself, and it looks to me like the cooperative bit isn't really necessary.

There's nothing inherent that would prevent a slave owning plantation, to be extreme, from also benefiting from a guarantee society relationship for financing investment in the same way that a cooperative farm would, as I see it.  The co-op part seems entirely independent from the guarantee society part, right?

 

by santiago on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 07:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
The co-op part seems entirely independent from the guarantee society part, right?

I advocate partnership frameworks for:

(a) Peer to Peer Credit - the 'Guarantee Society';

(b) Peer to Peer Investment - the 'Capital Partnership'

The latter is essentially a co-operative of owners of capital (investors) sharing revenues or production with a cooperative of users of capital (labour).

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just want to clarify that I could enter into either a guarantee society or a capital partnership without also having to have to change the way I pay my workers, right?
by santiago on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 08:56:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure you could. Both are complementary mechanisms.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 09:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I want to make sure we separate the "touchy feely" stuff from what is actually required to make the system work for an entrepreneur with a practical need for investment resources

Hey man! Like, you need to get in touch with your feelings!  :-)  Cooperatives of users of capital and owners of capital should be safe even for the most rationalist of economists. The peers are all capitalists.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the co-op part I'm wondering about here. I love co-ops. It's the part about giving workers an ownership in stake in the enterprise. Lots of people could have big problems with that because they don't trust their workers and their workers don't trust them. But Chris's plan here doesn't seem to rely on workers at all, just capitalists, so the worker co-op part of it seems completely superfluous in this scheme.
by santiago on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 07:51:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
It's the part about giving workers an ownership in stake in the enterprise. Lots of people could have big problems with that because they don't trust their workers and their workers don't trust them. But Chris's plan here doesn't seem to rely on workers at all, just capitalists, so the worker co-op part of it seems completely superfluous in this scheme.

In fact, one of the most powerful applications is a worker buyout of an enterprise, whether that is an existing private company (where shareholders get a better 'exit' than using any other model, essentially by selling off future profits) or existing state provision, where it is a new and 'non-toxic' approach to public/private partnership.

In this context the City of Glasgow already has five such municipal partnerships (using LLP frameworks) between the council and private providers, but all are conventionally financed. What I am proposing is to bring investment within such partnerships.

The outcome is 'co-ownership' between labour and capital of productive assets, and a genuine alignment of interests.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 09:27:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Employee Stock Ownership Plans, in US parlance.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 09:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but ESOPs only confer shares in the deeply dysfunctional joint Stock Limited Liability 'Corporation' with its embedded 'Principal/Agent' conflict with management.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:13:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I mean is that worker ownership, using a scheme like yours, is a solution to a problem in which workers want to own their employer, for any number of reasons. That's one business problem.

A more common business problem among entrepreneurs who might want to use your scheme is that a business owner just wants investment capital to expand, without changing the owner-employee relationship with his workers.  So I just wanted to clarify that you don't need to change your wage and ownership structure to participate in a guarantee society or an investment society.

by santiago on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:14:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both mechanisms are entirely complementary.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:16:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook: But my experience is that true 'co-ownership' will appeal to your staff as much as it does to (say) the John Lewis Partnership staff in the UK.

i have always taken a great interest in your ideas and would love to see them realized on a large scale (as far as i can understand them). but i am wondering if you have already implemented (or helped others to implement) them in actual enterprises.  if so, could you describe some of them (or point to where you already have done so)?

If you can't pay the bills, it's not sustainable.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've successfully developed a film using the model.

There was a >£1bn embryonic capital partnership years ago involving 10 UK hotels.

A chateau in France is encapsulated within a 'Capital Partnership', but this is a very simple early variant.

There are several works in progress. We have a commitment from a major municipality to put 1.5 acres of waterfront land into a 'Land Partnership' but assembling the rest of it is slow going, since we lack the necessary 'walkabout money'.

One very exciting project - a distressed school currently in provisional liquidation - has bubbled up in the last week. It's got a short fuse, and if it happens it will happen fast.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 03:05:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
santiago:
I'm not sure that basing the credit in energy or land adds anything, however.

As an advocate of the taxation of privileged use of the commons of Location (a tax on land rental values) and of the privileged use of non-renewable resources (eg a carbon levy) then in fact the credit would be based (via the State as intermediary) upon these sources of value. The taxation of unearned income from rents, means that taxation of earned income may be commensurately lower.

Why, yes but is not the credit weaker for it?

I mean if you have a note that is good for paying X euros of taxes in land Y, it is needed for anybody that pays taxes in land Y (which would be just about everybody) while if you have a note that is good for paying X euros of specific taxes (may it be land) in land Y it is only needed by those that pay that specific tax (landowners).

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A swedish kind of death:
It is only needed by those that pay that specific tax (landowners).

'Only'?

In Hong Kong, up to 35% of government income comes from a 'land rental'. This is a land value tax in all but name, and is due to the fact that the British only leased much of Hong Kong from the Chinese, and therefore only offered long 'Crown Leases' rather than the absolute title of freeholds.

Likewise in Denmark, up to 30% of tax - in this case local taxes - were land rental based. This proportion has declined since the privileged classes took power, capped the tax, and let the Danish property boom rip. The Danes were never as badly hit by the property bubble as many other nations, because their rented sector is, I understand, only surpassed as a proportion of overall housing, by Germany.

These examples demonstrate that the potential basis for what is essentially land-based money (ie government credit backed by land taxation)is massive.

Another way of looking at it is that more than two thirds of our existing deficit-based money was created by private banks as interest-bearing mortgage loans and is therefore deficit-based but property-backed.

Only part of this is land backing, of course, and much of it is backed by (depreciating) bricks and mortar etc....


Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:54:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
In Hong Kong, up to 35% of government income comes from a 'land rental'.

So is it not better - for the currency - to be based on 100% of tax value then 35%?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 02:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course.

But it's all relative, since you would be looking at how many year's worth of tax revenues could be monetised.

Such a land-backed State issued currency would principally be domestically acceptable or 'fungible'. Note here that I do not advocate any issue of currency by a State, since I regard State intermediation as just as much obsolete as private intermediation.

I would expect a currency based upon energy - and if an intermediary State is involved, upon a carbon levy/tax - to be another currency acceptable domestically. This would also be fungible beyond a country's borders within a suitable international clearing union.

But there's a difference between a currency - eg money's worth - and the value standard by which currencies are exchanged on credit terms.

Unfortunately the deficit-based currencies we are used to are not based upon tax revenues at all (except bank notes and coin) but are privately manufactured credit objects with very little value behind them at all.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 04:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What about inflation?

I can understand that in current times, inflation would almost be a good thing, but how do you guarantee that, in normal times, a gouvernment will not abuse this possibility and proceed to money emissions that results in high inflation? By "high" inflation, i'm refering to what was known in the 70's: 10% or more/year.

A free fox in a free henhouse!

by Xavier in Paris on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 05:53:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point.

Goverenments cannot be trusted not to over-issue, and if governments are involved as credit 'emitters' then it must not only be managed by professionals with a stake in the outcome but also supervised by a democratically accountable monetary authority.

This architecture, which dis-intermediates private banks, but not States, is only a transitional step in any case to be used in the event of a further credit freeze.

The end-game is total dis-intermediation, which will come about 'bottom up' not top down, and is complementary both to the existing system, or that envisaged here.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 09:12:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Inherent in your proposal are two different sources of disintermediated credit. The first is that supplied by the state by spending into existence money for public goods such as housing, transport and energy infrastructure. This would constitute a stimulus to the private sector which then should avail themselves of privately created credit from credit unions, clearing associations and cooperatives so as to take advantage of the potential new activity created by state spending.

Of course the problem just now is that the state is controlled by those blind to real social needs and intent on destructive "austerity" for ends about which we can only darkly speculate. A subsidiary problem is that the state seems intent on spending what money it does spend on saving a failed financial system.

This is an instance in which it is vitally important not only on what the money is spent but on how much money is spent. The projects in which investment is needed on a large scale are largely public goods. The resulting activity from state spending on needed public goods would stimulate the private sector, but, instead we are hearing that public debt, much of it recently incurred in a highly problematic effort to save the existing financial system, is too great to allow for more spending to get the economy going.

We are left with a chicken and egg problem and the solution seems to be to kill and dispose of the existing chickens, which lays poisoned eggs, and create a loan for an organic, green chickens that will produce eggs and more egg laying hens and roosters for slaughter sustainably. But the decisions are made by politicians under the influence of existing chicken farmers who deny the eggs they produce are poisoned.

We need some "fair and balanced" hard hitting reporting of the situation in the news and there is a major problem in that regard.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:30:06 AM EST
In fact, I see State credit intermediation - if it were to happen at all - as a step on the way to the total dis-intermediation of credit and investment I call Peer to Peer Finance

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 04:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Banks lend money into existence by creating, out of thin air, interest-bearing loans and worse than this, they spend money into existence on asset purchases (eg gilts); wages; other costs; and dividends to shareholders.

Only in the secondary market though? I was under the impression that to settle with the government they need CB money.

Wait this is important. Someone is wrong on the Internet.

by generic on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 08:39:09 AM EST


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