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Tuesday Open Thread

by afew Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:36:43 AM EST

Tuesday talk


Display:
Went to the dentist's and had a tooth yanked. Think I'll have a nap.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:37:54 AM EST
Oh yuk :( Feel better soon.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:17:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Power outage yesterday lasted 13 hours. County had to call out the po-po to direct rush hour traffic. ha ha ha.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:39:12 AM EST
Italy Installing More Solar Power in Two Months Than California Does in a Year : TreeHugger

We already knew that Italy was the world's second-largest solar power market in 2009 (the United States was fourth, by the way), but according to a new piece in Wind-works Italy is installing more solar power in two months than California does in a year. By the end of this year they are expected to have one and a half times the total installed capacity of the entire US.

Breaking down those numbers a bit: So far in 2010 Italy has installed 1500 MW of solar PV, compared to 480 MW in the US, 250 MW of which were in California. By the end of the year Italy should have 2500 MW of installed solar PV.

All this growth is powered by a 2007 decree setting a solar PV target of 1,200 MW--a new target of 3000 MW to be installed between 2011 and 2013 is awaiting approval--all of which is facilitated by a feed-in tariff system.

Why the comparison with California? In addition to the fact that California leads the way in the US in solar power, Italy is roughly similarly sized to California in area, size of the economy, and population.

way too little, much too late, but encouraging all the same.

power up, italia!

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 01:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So far in 2010 Italy has installed 1500 MW of solar PV,

Checking their source, they are a bit confused. 1500 MW is the expectation for new installations this year.

...Solar PV installations ... are expected to reach 1,500 MW in 2010.

I deem this part important:

According to Gruppo Imprese Fotovoltaiche Italiane (GIFI), 93% of all solar PV in Italy is installed on rooftops in distributed applications.

The bubble in Spain was fed largely by investors building large-scale greenfield facilities ( >1MW). And ven though the government plans degression, it is orderly unlike the one the German federal government wanted:

Unlike Spain, the government has no plans to cut the program dramatically. The proposed revision to the feed-in tariff program (conto energia), currently waiting approval, reduces the tariffs and sets a new target of 3,000 MW for the three-year period from 2011 to 2013. The revisions are expected to be approved sometime this summer. The proposal cuts the tariffs 18% in three equal steps of 6% during each of the first three quarters in 2011.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Their info on Spain is old. As I understand it the cuts have already gone through.  Plus, the information that I got from offical documents is suggesting that there are at least 100,000 solar PV installations in Spain. Which using information from the national system operator suggests an average solar pv installation size of less than 50 watts. So most of these must be roof top units.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 03:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Their info on Spain is old.As I understand it the cuts have already gone through.

Sorry for being confusing, the planned cuts I wrote of are in Italy.

there are at least 100,000 solar PV installations in Spain. Which using information from the national system operator suggests an average solar pv installation size of less than 50 watts.

You confuse mean and median... The typical size of rooftop installations is 10kW. 100,000 of those is 1GW -- much less than half of the Spanish total.

I brought some numbers on this here: DoDo:

the 2008 Spanish PV boom (see stats upthread) was overwhelmingly in large greenfield farms (and large industrial rooftops), not on private home rooftops. While I don't have actual stats for it, one can add up the 2008 Spanish plants in the World's largest photovoltaic power plants ranking: just the farms 2MW or above add up to 2096 MW, out of the 2700MW total. (Out of the 3400MW added in Germany this year, the same number is just 517 MW.)


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 03:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The typical size of rooftop installations is 10kW.

That's private home rooftops. (Those on office buildings can be multiples of that, those on factory or supermarket roofs even in the hundreds of kilowatts.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 03:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand your point about the difference between the mean and media installation size, however, the numbers just don't add up.  In order for what you say to be true, there would have to be several large installations and tens of thousands of installations there are smaller than the size of an average household panel.

Ok,  there are 3729 MW of solar PV potential in Spain as of the end of 2009.  536 MW of those are in installations larger than 20 MW. Another 42 MW larger than 1 MW are identifiable. We know that there are at least 100,000 installation. And we can identify 578 MW (15.5%) that are larger than 1 MW.

It's clear that smaller installations are producing the majority of the power. I'm extrapolating from figures here.  I really wish that we had hard statistics, but the PV association hasn't been as good as the wind sector in Spain about that.

PV has good uses in specialized small scale functions away from the grid, like street lights on highways, etc.  But it is not, and never will be, something that's going to make economic sense for large scale installations.  Thermo solar and wind have huge advantages there.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:42:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok,  there are 3729 MW of solar PV potential in Spain as of the end of 2009.  536 MW of those are in installations larger than 20 MW. Another 42 MW larger than 1 MW are identifiable...

MfM, have you actually read my comment and looked at my link? Unlike on Wikipédia, there is a near-complete list of large solar installations >1MW at that site, and I summed up for 2009 by feeding it into a spreadsheet. You went instead to Wikipedia, and assumed that they have complete coverage.

In order for what you say to be true, there would have to be several large installations and tens of thousands of installations there are smaller than the size of an average household panel.

How so? again, 100,000 times 10 kW (which is an average private home rooftop installation and not a single panel, which is around 100W!) is 1 GW, while the Spanish total is almost four times of that, as you can see. Just the >=2MW farms built in 2009 are more than half of the Spanish total.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:53:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
summed up for 2009 ... Just the >=2MW farms built in 2009

2008.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did a small breakdown by size with that spreadsheet of the 2008 Spanish PV farms greater than 2 MW. Ranges (<= .. <) and sums in those bands:

20-60 MW: 436.5 MW
10-20 MW: 415.0 MW
6-10 MW: 440.9 MW
4-6 MW: 315.0 MW
3-4 MW: 200.0 MW
2-3 MW: 288.2 MW


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, this clears up a lot.

Finally, a good info source.

So according to your source. In 2008, there were 2095.6 MW of PV solar larger than 2MW installed in Spain.

So that means that if the grand total in 2009 was 3223 MW, that 1127.4 MW (35%) was in installations smaller than 2 MW. While I think that the case is there for self use on the residential level, I don't see that small installations that produce for others, i.e. would be getting any sort of FiT make sense.

My impression is that the Spanish government is very keen both to reduce the use of imported natural gas, and to work on bringing down the cost of industrial electricity as a development measure.

 

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So that means that if the grand total in 2009 was 3223 MW, that 1127.4 MW (35%) was in installations smaller than 2 MW.

Even less: 2095.6 MW was only in those added 2008, the >=2MW end of 2008 grand total for Spain from my spreadsheet is 2540.0 MW. So that leaves a mere 683 MW (21%) for smaller projects. In Germany, the ratios are opposite, in Italy, it seems rooftop dominates even more.

I don't see that small installations that produce for others, i.e. would be getting any sort of FiT make sense.

Again why not, apart from Big is Beautiful? A residential level project that can't feed surplus production above self use into the grid is wasteful. And prices still have a long way to go down.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to give figures for a rather different distribution, since Germany's photovoltaics registry is on-line and I put that in a spreadsheet too recently; for Germany's record year of 2009 (when large green-field and industrial rooftop plants had a greater part than in previous years):

1-51 MW: 638 MW
0.1-1 MW: 635 MW
40-100 kW: 600 MW
20-40 kW: 914 MW
10-20 kW: 548 MW
0-10 kW: 472 MW

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 09:44:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Above is again only new installations in one year. For the same,

  • mean: 23.95 kW;
  • median: 38.25 kW.

Little difference there, unlike the ~25-50 kW mean vs. ~5-7 MW median contrast for Spain in 2008.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:07:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Italy Surpasses US in Solar PV | Renewable Energy World
Italy Surpasses US in Solar PV Installing More Every Two Months than California in an Entire Year by Paul Gipe, Contributor Published: June 30, 2010

New York, United States -- In a dramatic display of the power feed-in tariffs have in driving markets, Italy installed more solar photovoltaics (PV) in 2009 than the entire U.S. Moreover, within the first quarter of 2010, Italy's total installed solar PV capacity was expected to exceed that of the US. The proposed revision to the feed-in tariff program (conto energia), currently waiting approval, reduces the tariffs and sets a new target of 3,000 MW for the three-year period from 2011 to 2013.

Italy installed 720 megawatts (MW) of solar PV in 2009, nearly all of that on rooftops. In contrast, the U.S. installed 435 MW during the same period, according to a draft report by the Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC).

Italy introduced a system of feed-in tariffs for solar PV in February, 2007 after concluding that the previous program of Tradable Green Certificates was not delivering the results desired.

By the end of 2007, Italy had installed five times more solar PV than in the previous year. Despite numerous bureaucratic roadblocks, the solar industry took off in 2008 and installed nearly 350 MW, then a record-breaking number. Solar PV installations have been doubling since then and are expected to reach 1,500 MW in 2010.

Italy is three-fourths the size of California, with which it is often compared because of their similarly-sized economies. Italy has a population of 60 million, to California's 40 million. The population of the U.S. is five times that of Italy.

Italy is now the world's second largest annual market for solar PV, after Germany.

IREC estimates that there was 1,250 MW of total installed solar PV capacity in the U.S. at the end of 2009. Currently, the U.S. is installing 40-50 MW per month, and Italy 125 MW per month. At this pace, Italy surpassed the U.S. in total installed PV capacity before the end of the first quarter, likely by the end of February 2010.

Italy is installing more capacity--250 MW--every two months than California is installing per year.

By the end of 2010, Italy will have a total installed capacity of more than 2,500 MW. This is two and one-half times more capacity than is expected in California, and one and one-half times more than is expected in the U.S.

Italy's 2007 decree also set a solar PV target of 1,200 MW. They reached their target earlier this year.

Unlike Spain, the government has no plans to cut the program dramatically.



"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:10:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I read through, it's just that there has to be some sort of definitional issue here, because what you have and what the Spanish government is reporting don't match.  That could be because they are for self use, or because many of these projects on the list you have are still in the construction phase.

Regardless, in times of austerity, it's sort of hard to convince people who are looking at reduced wages that the government should be shelling out cash at the rate imagined here. This is a lot more data than I'm going to swim through right now, but there's general agreement that the targeted cut in the FiT was a good call.

One of the big problems that's unique to Spain is that industrial electricity rates are 85% of residential rates, while in neighboring France they industry only pays only 67.5% of what residential does.  Purchasing a Mwh for an industrial operation in Spain will cost, on average, €109.80/Mwh.  In France that same amount will cost a factory  €64.70/Mwh.  So industrial electric costs are 70% higher in Spain than France.  That's a huge impediment to economic growth.

That issue with industrial prices is what's driving government action more than residential prices.  Cutting non-labor costs of production removes some of the push to slash wages.

FYI, where was your spreadsheet at, I found the thing online, but no excel file?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what you have and what the Spanish government is reporting don't match.

Could you spell out what doesn't match? Because I looked though your links, and the only mismatch I could find was with Wikipedia's undersampled data for PV farms under 20 MW.

many of these projects on the list you have are still in the construction phase

Nope. The Spanish solar market collapsed at the end of 2008, remember? This is also reflected in that list.

the government should be shelling out cash at the rate imagined here

The government doesn't shell out cash for feed-in tariffs. (I think we had this debate, too.) You had a better argument with industrial electricity rates, but it still doesn't sound convincing: if that's the problem, then it's industrial rates that shall be changed, not minute differences in production price (which are driven by marginal producers anyway, as Jérôme often reminds us).

there's general agreement that the targeted cut in the FiT was a good call.

I did a detailed discussion of the pros and cons of the Spanish feed-in law and the rate cut in your previous diary, won't repeat it all here; I will just add comments after re-quoting something Crazy Horse posted in the same thread:

Spanish PV After the Crash | Renewable Energy World

 There is also more emphasis on household systems. Prior to the crash, vast and somewhat controversial ground-mounted arrays made up the bulk of installations. These may now be a thing of the past.

"The current support scheme is better for rooftop and domestic systems than the former one. We are now trying to introduce net metering to the support scheme and the government likes the idea," wrote Diaz.

Indeed, in a sunny country like Spain, a FIT of €0.32 is enough to make an installation affordable to households and up-to-date figures from ASIF suggest 2010 will see some 600 MW installed. Similarly, the European Photovoltaic Industry Association estimates that this market could continue to add around 375-500 MW a year until 2013, which would keep Spain as one of the top global markets, and enable PV to generate 4%-4.5% of the national electricity demand (equating to roughly 20% of domestic household electricity demand).

Even so, the big collapse of the market also ensured that the development of local manufacturing base as seen in Germany was stalled. There was indeed a bubble to burst, but it could have been done with a lesser shock and a more focused redirection from greenfield to to rooftop (for example by having separate feed-in rates for them).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
<blockqoute>Could you spell out what doesn't match? Because I looked though your links, and the only mismatch I could find was with Wikipedia's undersampled data for PV farms under 20 MW.</blockqoute>

A lot of this is in Spanih, but the bottom line is that the documents that the government produces are insistent that small producers are taking the majority of the FiT.  I think that the issue is that they are putting that larger installations, i.e. those in the 2-3 MW range, in the small category.

I also get the point about the merit order effect, but I still think that the rate at which solar PV was being paid out was so high that it wasn't going to create returns for consumers in the short term.  If the point is to subsidize research and development costs, then I don't see why there would be support for small scale installations, at this point.  Putting the focus on creating economies of scale would reduce unit costs quicker.

Also, thinking less in terms of energy, and more in terms of industrial development, I think that the linkages between solar PV and existing industries in Spain much weaker than for either Solar thermal or Wind.  It's simply that solar PV doesn't present the same opportunities to find new uses for old industrial capacity that those other two do.  For example, solar thermal uses large amounts of high quality glass, which creates new product lines for existing manufacturers supplying the auto industry.  

I think it's that point, that beyond the energy issue there's this point about how well new technologies fit in with existing industries, so that you can help keep firms afloat and putting their products into new fields, that I'm not communicating well.

Alas, I'm supposed to be finishing up something non-ET right now, so I'm trying to be brief.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the documents that the government produces are insistent that small producers are taking the majority of the FiT.  I think that the issue is that they are putting that larger installations, i.e. those in the 2-3 MW range, in the small category.

Ah, that could be the root of the misunderstanding. But a specific link/pointer would be good (I can use Google translate if I can't guess the meaning).

Also, thinking less in terms of energy, and more in terms of industrial development

I addressed the issue of industrial development directly at the end of my comment. The PV industry is not nonexistent in Spain, but it was stopped in its growth; again quoting Crazy Horse's article:

In 2008 Spanish companies like Isofóton and BP Solar manufactured 500 MW of solar equipment and exported 70 MW. Figures for 2009 are still being compiled, but it is clear that exports are higher and manufacturing is recovering.

For example, solar thermal uses large amounts of high quality glass

So does PV. Solar panels consist of multiple solar cells enclosed in a protective frame, and the Sun-side is usually thick high-quality glass. (2GW of solar panels means c. 20 km² of glass.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:39:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I addressed the issue of industrial development directly at the end of my comment. The PV industry is not nonexistent in Spain, but it was stopped in its growth

I'm not seeing that in the things at I've read.  Part of that may be that I'm heavily focused on the Basque region.  

Ideally, though, I like to think of the "new energy" economy plugging into the existing one, and drawing things closer together.

Imagine the idea of hyperlinks, but replacing these with supplier relationships between firms.  The more heavily crossreferencing these links, the harder it is to get the same sort of efficiencies elsewhere.  So production is tied to a static location instead of globe trotting in search of cheap labor.

When you have a concentration of firms that need, for example,  superclear glass, there's going to be a larger local market, and lower unit costs.  Shared supplier bases mean that no one firm has to bear the cost of keeping these specialized suppliers afloat. And they don't have to worry about having to locate someone who can make that type of class on an ad hoc basis.  The concentration of demand means that you can have firms specialize, but the large number of purchasers means that they aren't dependent on any one buyer.  Thus, the firms in the cluster support one another's existence.

This is obviously not neoliberal economics, but it is part of my dissertation. Now I just have to figure how to get to Spain for research......  I suppose I can always got the teaching English in Spain route......

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not seeing that in the things at I've read.  Part of that may be that I'm heavily focused on the Basque region.

Well indeed, Isofotón is in Málaga, and BP Solar near Madrid. But there was a lot of room to expand production capacity from a mere 500 MW a year, and there is again the German example: the new solar industry, while it originated in the Southwest, flourished especially in the former East German industrial regions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:03:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it is not, and never will be, something that's going to make economic sense for large scale installations.

We had this argument before, I have to repeat myself: why not? And what's the point of large-scale installations? I won't repeat all the detailed arguments, instead, here is something new for ET interest:

Madrid, 23 June 2010
Roofs could technically generate up to 40% of EU's electricity demand by 2020
With a total ground floor area over 22,000 km2, 40% of all building roofs and 15% of all facades in EU 27 are suited for PV applications. This means that over 1,500 GWp of PV could technically be installed in Europe which would generate annually about 1,400TWh, representing 40% of the total electricity demand by 2020.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:03:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
great find, DoDo!

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Life Jackets Issued To All Americans For Some Reason | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
WASHINGTON, DC--Assuring the nation that "there is no need for alarm," the Office of Homeland Security issued all U.S. citizens life jackets for some unexplained reason Monday.

"Everything is fine. You have nothing to worry about," said Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge during a televised press conference. "Still, just to be 100 percent on the safe side, I would urge all Americans to keep these life vests on at all times."

Ridge said he was not at liberty to divulge the specific reason for the unprecedented national life-jacket distribution, but he insisted that the move is "merely a minor precautionary measure."



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:59:03 AM EST
The sad thing is, all The Onion need do is update the name of DHS Secretary from Tom RIdge to Janet Napolitano and it'll still hit the mark.
by Magnifico on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 11:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Magnifico, why do you hate freedom?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 02:04:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is just another word for nothing left to lose.
by Magnifico on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 02:59:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...and nothing ain't nothing if it ain't free?

(It's all too easy to predict what you'll say next ;))

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:01:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
fornicated. adj. past participle of the verb infin. to fornicate

Despite its strenuous efforts, Ireland has been thrust into the same ignominious category as Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. It now pays a hefty three percentage points more than Germany [!!!] on its benchmark bonds, in part because investors fear that the austerity program, by retarding growth and so far failing to reduce borrowing, will make it harder for Dublin to pay its bills [I.E. INTEREST PAYMENTS] rather than easier.

Other European nations, including Britain and Germany, are following Ireland's lead [!!!], arguing that the only way to restore growth is to convince investors and their own people that government borrowing will shrink.

Read more...

See, uh, austerity ain't all bad. Thar be flavors of austerity plans to suit the discriminatin' tastes of de bond connoisseurs.

Possibly related, graphic forecast:
delta Debt/GDP

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 11:20:01 AM EST
"Sex at Dawn": Why monogamy goes against our nature - Nonfiction - Salon.com

You argue that much of this misery stems from changes that occurred when humans developed agriculture, around 8000 B.C. What happened?

The advent of agriculture changed everything about human society, from sexuality to politics to economics to health to diet to exercise patterns to work-versus-rest patterns. It introduced the notion of property into sexuality. Property wasn't a very important consideration when people were living in small, foraging groups where most things were shared, including food, childcare, shelter and defense. It makes perfect sense that sexuality would also be shared -- why wouldn't it be when paternity wasn't an issue?

When you have agriculture, men started to worry about whether or not certain children were theirs biologically, because they wanted to leave their accumulated property to their own child. At that point, people also made a very clear connection between sexual behavior and birth. Lots of people didn't have a very clear understanding of the cause and effect of sex and birth, but when you have domesticated animals living side by side with people, they start to notice that the characteristics of a certain male that has mated with a certain female show up in the offspring.

One of the central ideas of much biological and genetic theory is that animals will expend more energy protecting those they're genetically related to -- siblings, parents, offspring -- as opposed to those they're not related to. Why wouldn't that apply to humans?

There are many, many exceptions to that rule in nature. One of the exceptions we talk about in the book are the vampire bats that share blood with each other. They go out and they suck the blood at night and then they come back to the cave and the bats that didn't get any blood will receive blood from other bats. They share, and that has nothing to do with genetic connection. And in terms of animals that are much more closely related to humans, when you look at bonobos and their promiscuous interaction, it's virtually impossible for a male to know which of his offspring are related to him biologically. So to say that there's this inherent concern with paternity within our species, I just don't see evidence for that.

Does this mean that humans didn't form couples before the advent of agriculture?

Because human groups at the time knew each other so well and spent their lives together and were all interrelated and depended upon each other for everything, they really knew each other much better than most of us know our sexual partners today. We don't argue that people didn't form very special relationships -- you can see this even in chimps and bonobos and other primates, but that bond doesn't necessarily extend to sexual exclusivity. People have said that we're arguing against love -- but we're just saying that this insistence that love and sex always go together is erroneous.



"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 01:54:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
freakay!

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no fornigating way!!!!

At that point, people also made a very clear connection between sexual behavior and birth.

umshakalaka um

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Given that these people have been dead for thousands of years, and we don't have a fossil record of sexual activity, isn't this hard to prove?

We're research fellows at Bob Jones University. The evidence we collected comes from several different areas. We look at pre-agricultural people who have been studied today and horticultural people who have been studied by anthropologists. There's a fair amount of information about the sexuality of people who haven't been deeply exposed to Western influence. There are accounts from travelers and colonialists, first-contact accounts from historical records, that we rely on. But you can also extract a great deal of information from the human body itself -- from the design of the penis to the volume of the testicles to the sperm-producing potential of the testicular tissue and the way we have sex.

The enduring popularity of the missionary posture and relatively brief availability of vasectomy reveals a lot about our ancestral mating habits.



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're research fellows at Bob Jones University.

In other words, they're morons.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wwwwwwweeeellllll, i did embellish a leetle...

COULDN'T HELP MYSELF

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 03:44:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Bob Jones is the cherry on the cake. Some cake.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 02:08:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This reminds one of the conviction, common to both sides, during the early years of WW I that it was vitally important for each nation involved to show its resolve by being willing to sacrifice the lives of its soldiers.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Inquiry to be held into security service torture claims

A judge-led inquiry is to be held into claims British security services were complicit in the torture of terror suspects, the BBC understands.

Prime Minister David Cameron is to announce the inquiry is being set up, possibly as early as Wednesday.

In opposition the Conservatives and Lib Dems called for an inquiry into claims by UK resident Binyam Mohamed British agents were aware of his torture.

The former Labour government insisted the UK did not use or condone torture.

The security services have always denied allegations they were complicit in torture.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 11:25:57 AM EST


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 12:13:11 PM EST
wow, one wonders what leonardo or michelangelo might do with that.

the artist would be equally wondrous without the ipad, i reckon.

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 01:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Photographers' rights campaign spawns lens cloth launch news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums
Rules on photography in public places have been spelled out in black and white on a photographers' lens cloth set to be given away with Amateur Photographer (AP) magazine's 10 July issue.

Made of microfibre material the cloth is designed to be carried by photographers when out and about and can be attached to a keyring, for example.

It will give photographers, amateur and professional, easy access to guidelines issued to Metropolitan Police officers last year to help them deal with photographers.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 01:07:41 PM EST

source

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 01:12:42 PM EST
duly noted

video | recaps | blog | cast | music | boards | live huge | live huge tour | live huge wall

Funny, heartbreaking and provocative, Huge follows the lives of seven teens and the staff at a weight-loss camp, as they look beneath the surface to discover their true selves and the truth about each other.

In Huge, Nikki Blonsky will portray Willamina, a teen whose sardonic and rebellious nature make her a menace to some and revolutionary to others. Additional cast include Zander Eckhouse as George, Harvey Guillen as Alistair, Ari Stidham as Ian, Ashley Holliday as Chloe and Hayley Hasselhoff as Amber.

Huge, based on author Sasha Paley's book of the same name from Alloy Entertainment, is being developed by Winnie Holzman (Wicked, My So-Called Life, Once & Again) and daughter Savannah Dooley. Holzman will serve as executive producer...

Love Huge, Think Huge, Act Huge

At ABC Family, we believe that healthy living means living life to the fullest.  In order to live your best life, it's important to take care of yourself -- physically, mentally and emotionally.  Here you'll be given tips on how to eat nutritious snacks and meals, add exercise into your busy life, and build a stronger, more positive sense of self -- because living a healthy life means having healthy self-esteem too!...  

Read more...



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 01:58:26 PM EST
BZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz!!!!!

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:35:39 PM EST


Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 03:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]


"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Phew, we're through. Spain should beat Paraguay and meet Germany or Argentina in the Semifinals...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also: anyone seen a replay of David Villa's goal? The speaker on my TV was certain that he was on offside, but I could never catch the moment in the fast replays.

Also, the referee didn't like C.Ronaldo... looks like all the acting in his younger years came back to haunt him, Capdevila et al could foul him at will. (Which doesn't change the fact that Spain was clearly better.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Definitely offside, but there's no way the linesman could have judged (much less seen) the back heel pass.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You tell me:

I know nothing, I am (not even) from Barcelona...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:29:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On second look, it's hard to say from this direction.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you took the next frame in the film it would be clearly offside...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can watch the (just barely) offsides here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CsuLDB5nlQ

Look at 1'08'' or so.

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That video is no longer available, but the 3D simulation Crazy Horse mentioned is here (warning: loud music, turn off the volume!):



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:56:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not the original video, but a 3D animation taken from the video. Probably not to violate FIFA copyright.

What I saw was similar, but with the actual video, including motion, rotated to various angles. So you could see each player's actual motion. I can't remember if all three German Senders have this technology, or only ZDF.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 07:13:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The tv i saw has this new (to me) 3D technology, where they spin the capture to the offside line, marked on the screen. in super slo-mo, you see the moment of the heel kick, where Villa is a full stride forward. No way humans can do that in the normal play of the match.

In other words, yes offsides, but on a very well-earned goal. What's perhaps more important, is that Villa stayed on his feet enough to follow through on the rebound. awesome.

as if Spain shouldn't have had 3 more goals.  Though Portugal also had a few sorry finishes to their breakaways. Pretty entertaining, though not as pretty as the teams are noted. my amateur impression was of a truly hard fought match, with the ref allowing a lot of fouls, like a champions league match.

Spain follows with a training match against Paraguay. We must face the hand of Argentina.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
adding, the linesman probably missed the heel kick, and as Villa was not offside on the feed pass, no flag.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I almost missed the heel pass, too. I was about to post this screenshot instead:



By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's perhaps more important, is that Villa stayed on his feet enough to follow through on the rebound. awesome.

Yup, what makes Villa a great striker is that he follows through. He did it a couple of other times in this game.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:47:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yeah, he really showed his worth tonight. but as the Cup progresses, Torres is also getting closer to form. Spain should take it all, they were absolutely masterful in ball control tonight, after the first 20 minutes nervousness.  They also have a palpable confidence.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Paradoxically, in the first 20 minutes they had the better control and most shots on goal until about 15 minutes into the 2nd half when they again took control of the game. The 40 intervening minutes, Portugal did better than the start and end of the game.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:59:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but their passes at first were nervous, not confident.  Portugal wasn't able to use their chances in that intervening time, i suppose because they're not quite the same level.

but this was a 1-0 match i really enjoyed.

until i came back to the net, and read your diary about the transit strike. right down to earth.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I found Portugal defended admirably, but they were either unable or unwilling to do anything but counterattack. And they did mount a number of scary counterattacks, but that was it.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:07:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was their strategy. After all, Spain's goal was the first allowed of the tournament for them. (Hence, the goalie's tears.

But any nation that has Hugo Almeida as its top striker has to be wanting. (I have nothing against Hugo, he brought much to Werder these past years, he's got a wicked left foot... but missing a bit of finishing cleverness.)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the ref allowed a lot of fouls, but the game wasn't rough and the fouls weren't frequent enough to break the flow of the game.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:48:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there was as much diving as fouls. brilliant acting by the millionaires on the pitch, very untertaining for us plebes. the ref was not swayed, and even laughed a few times about the divers.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Think you've stumbled onto something: 'untertaining' has definite 'new word' possibilities.

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well UK clothing chain Next has a rather amusing entry in the search, go there now and put in Mugs

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 05:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Going on vacation to Gotland tomorrow, to enjoy the sun, sea and the Almedalen political week. The ship I'll be going on will average almost 26 knots. Not bad.

Oh, and as a sign of good maritime fortune, my long languishing buy order at last went through, due to today's stockmarket decline. Yay!

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:39:25 PM EST
Starvid's

Technology®

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 02:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to laugh because my older, now passed on, Swedish relatives tried to convince me to "återvända hem till Sverige" during the Viet Nam War by espousing All Things Swedish.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 03:07:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gotland is great. The Ex's maternal relatives include a mad noble who kept his horse in the house with him near Visby. And a living relative who is a commercial pilot living in Visby. We flew from Arlanda to Visby with him in a small plane. That's how he commuted to work from Gotland.

Whenever I've been there the sun's shone and the turbines have spun, so I have a very idealistic view of your destination.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 03:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Digger-Mutanen reaches the finish line, with 1000s of people in the Kuusamo main square

It's in Finnish, so I'll give you a precis. This story contains all you need to know about Finnish culture today.

Shy young Mutanen, a mini-digger driver from Hanko, a cargo port on Finland's south-west coast, founded a Facebook group with the promise that if he got 50.000 fans to sign in, he would drive his little digger (at 4 kmph) from Hanko 1000 kilometres North to Kuusamo. That number signed in within 3 days. So off he went. It took him a month. He arrived today. Almost the entire town of Kuusamo (pop. 16665), come out to greet him preceded by several dozen bikes that accompanied him on the last 20 kms.

Now. Here comes the zinger. T'was a Chinese-made digger, and the Chinese CEO of that company flew in from Asia to meet shy young Mutanen in the square.

Shy young Mutanen is almost certainly paralytic already and heading in the opposite direction from shy.

It's got it all: a bit of social networking, a plant rental company (where the legless Mutanen works) that discovered the power of viral after supporting their young worker in what was probably  local press stunt that emerged into a national/international bit of promotion. This seeming cooperation between worker and bosses is dear to the Finnish idealism. Then the whole escapade is about a man and a machine. A plodding man and a plodding machine. That's yer basic Finn. The Engineering Tribe.

Then there's community in the entire little town turning out to excitedly to greet the parade of ploddingness. And then there's the China Syndrome, about which I have reported before.

All in all, a good day.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:28:16 PM EST
Since people may not know what a mini-digger is:

purportedly - I don't read Finnish - that is Mutanen at the ... uh ... levers.

Actually, that's a nifty little machine and I could sure use one around here considering all the outside work I need to do.

 

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:05:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ive seen that and thought its very "Straight story"

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and no one will read this, but...

NDN friend on facebook commented on the oil catastrophe (i won't use the word "spill")

what began in genocide, ends in ecocide.

do you see the connection?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:40:55 PM EST
Psychology Cheat Sheet | The Big Picture
Today's infoporn comes to use via the  Hoffman Brothers at Wall Street Cheat Sheet: Its a pretty variant on the psychological cycle charts we have shown in the past:


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:52:32 AM EST


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