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Is this it?

by Migeru Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:05:44 AM EST

Originally published on June 29, 2010

Metro prepara un plan con autobuses privados si los huelguistas deciden el paro indefinido · ELPAÍS.com[The Madrid] Metro prepares a private bus plan in case strikers decide on an indefinite stoppage - ElPais.com
El consejero de Transportes de la Comunidad de Madrid, Jose Ignacio Echeverría, ha confirmado hoy que Metro de Madrid ha diseñado un plan de autobuses privados que cubrirían los recorridos de las líneas del metro si mañana los trabajadores deciden ir a la huelga indefinida a partir del 1 de julio. Hoy, los intentos de Metro de intentar abrir, con apoyo policial, la línea 8 del Metro de Madrid (de Nuevos Ministerios al aeropuerto de Barajas) fracasaron. Decenas de agentes antidisturbios se desplazaron pasadas las cuatro de la tarde a los andenes de estaciones de Nuevos Ministerios y de la Terminal 4, en Barajas, pero tras unas dos horas, la circulación no ha logrado restablecerse y los policías se han replegado. Los ciudadanos de Madrid han vivido una jornada de caos en los transportes por la huelga total de metro (sin servicios mínimos) ratificada anoche en asamblea sindical en respuesta al recorte salarial del 5% que ha aprobado el Gobierno regional.The Transport Councillor of the Madrid Region, José Ignacio Echeverría, has confirmed today that Metro de Madrid has designed a private bus plan to cover the routes of metro lines if tomorrow the workers decide to go on an indefinite strike after July 1. Today, Metro's attempts to open, with police support, line 8 of the Madrid Metro (from Nuevos Ministerios to the Barajas airport) failed. Tens of riot police moved after 4 pm to the platforms at the Nuevos Ministerios and Barajas Terminal 4 stations but, after roughly 2 hours, traffic failed to be reestablished and the police have withdrawn. Madrid's citizens have lived a day of transport chaos due to the Metro general strike (without minimal services) ratified yesterday in a union assembly in reaction to the 5% wage cut approved by the regional government.
......
La Comunidad de Madrid asegura que el ministro del Interior, Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, ha telefoneado a Esperanza Aguirre para ofrecer el apoyo de su departamento. La Delegación del Gobierno (dependiente del Ministerio del Interior) ha desplegado 4.000 policías y guardias civiles -3.500 más que un día normal- en las instalaciones del metro para reforzar la seguridad por la huelga. Esta noche las autoridades analizarán si hay que aumentar la presencia policial de cara a mañana.The Madrid Region claims that the Interior Minister, Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, has phoned [regional president] Esperanza Aguirre to offer his department's support. The Government Delegation (dependent from the Ministry of the Interior) deployed 4,000 police and guardia civil - 3,500 more than on a normal day - at the Metro facilities to reinforce security due to the strike. Tonight the authorities will analyse whether the police presence needs to be increased tomorrow.

promoted by Jerome


Things are heating up in Spain as [Socialist Union] UGT says that the non-enforcement of the minimal services in the Metro strike is a warning for [next September's] General Strike. As part of Zapatero's austerity programme, state employee salaries are to be cut by 5 to 10%. A couple of weeks ago a strike by state employees was rather unsuccessful, but still the Unions called a general strike in September. Today there was also a general strike in the Basque Country, with some arrests and prosecutions reported after unrest.

The government has also tightened the budget of regional and local governments, and these have reacted by copying the 5% wage cut policy. Today was the second of three days of strikes by the employees of the Madrid Metro. Under Spanish law, when there is a public sector strike the firm and the employees must negotiate a "minimal service" level. However, the unions claim that Metro de Madrid imposed an "abusive" 50% minimum service level, and the unions reacted by going for an all-out strike. The three-day strike was an attempt to force the hand of the Madrid government with the threat of an indefinite strike starting on the 4th day, July 1st. I'd say, given today's rhetoric, that the likelihood of the strike going on into July is quite high.

The situation was serious enough for the Ministry of the Interior to send riot police to try to break the pickets on the metro line linking the centre of town with the airport. It is very uncommon for Spanish authorities to attempt to use force to break strikes. The last instance of this was in 2008, when truckers blocked the roads around Madrid (see the diary Post Peak Iberia by Luis de Sousa). However, it's one thing to clear a road blockage and another thing to force people to work. While the clearing of the truckers was successful, today's attempt to open the Metro line to the airport wasn't.

I'm afraid social unrest can only get worse "going forward"...

Update [2010-6-30 14:58:30 by Migeru]: Today the workers' assembly decided to continue the strike with 50% service on Thursday and Friday, not strike over the weekend, and leave open the possibility of continuing the strike after Monday July 5...

Display:
Meantime...

ceebs:

BBC News - Clashes as Greeks strike against austerity measures
Greek riot police have clashed with protesters in Athens and the main port of Piraeus during a 24-hour general strike against cost-cutting reforms.

In the capital, demonstrators threw sticks, bottles and stones at police who responded by firing tear gas.

Tear gas was also fired at ship workers trying to blockade Piraeus's port when they swarmed aboard an arriving boat.

The strike comes as MPs debate tough austerity measures demanded by the International Monetary Fund and EU.

They include cutting pensions, raising the retirement age and making it easier for companies to dismiss employees.



By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:31:15 PM EST
Two countries with "Socialist" governments...

If things develops like this, Twank will be happy.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Is this it?
It is very uncommon for Spanish authorities to attempt to use force to break strikes. The last instance of this was in 2008, when truckers blocked the roads around Madrid (see the diary Post Peak Iberia by Luis de Sousa).
Interestingly, just this past weekend El Pais published a profile of the Interior Minister which contained the following segment about the truckers' strike:

Rubalcaba privado · ELPAÍS.comRubalcaba, up close and personal - ElPais.com
-¿Hay tensiones ocasionales entre su ideología y su práctica profesional?Are there occasional tensions between your ideology and your professional practice?
-No hay tensiones entre mi ideología y mi práctica profesional. Más aún, no las hay entre mi biografía y mi práctica. ¿Recuerdas la huelga de transportes de junio de 2008?There are no tensions between my ideology and my professional practice. What is more, there are none between my biography and my praxis. Do you remember the transport strike of June 2008?
-Mmm...Mmm...
-Empezó un sábado o un domingo. La cosa se fue calentando y perdíamos el control del país. Aquella huelga del sector del transporte fue, desde el punto de vista del conocimiento, apasionante. El miércoles por la mañana pensé que había que tomar decisiones. Convoqué a mi gente y les dije: "Ahora mismo sacáis los camiones de la carretera de Burgos". "Pero ministro...", me decían. Nada, me los sacáis.It began on a Saturday or Sunday. The thing heated up and we were losing control of the country. That strike of the transport sector was, from the point of view of knowledge, fascinating. On Wednesday morning, I though one must make decisions. I summoned by people and told them: "You're taking the trucks out of the Burgos road". "But Minister...", they said to me. Nothing, get them out.

The "Burgos road" is one of the 6 roads coming out of Madrid, the one directly due North.

-¿Había problemas jurídicos?Were there any legal problems?
-Ninguno. Y aquello lo taponaba todo, imagínate, una ciudad como Madrid en la que, por citar solo una cosa, no entraban los víveres. Había que mandar un mensaje de que aquello no podía ser. Fue una decisión comparable a la de Blanco con los controladores aéreos. Pero si lo hago el lunes en vez del miércoles me habría equivocado. Los tiempos son fundamentales. Bueno, aquel día me sentí raro. Algo colisionaba con mi biografía, algo me rechinaba...None. And that was plugging everything up, imagine it, a city like Madrid in which, just to mention one thing, groceries couldn't come in. There was a need to send out a message that it couldn't be. It was a decision comparable to Blanco's with the air traffic controllers. But if I do it on the Monday instead of the Wednesday I would have made a mistake. Timing is essential. Well, that day I felt weird. Something clashed with my biography, something squeaked...

At the end of 2009 and well into January 2010 there was a covert strike by Spanish air traffic controllers (what is called a zeal strike where strict adherence to procedural or safety minutiae jams up operations). In February this year the Minister of Public Works, José Blanco, introduced a decree making a repeat of the strike harder in the future.

-¿Y qué le rechinaba?And what squeaked?
-Que yo sacara a unos trabajadores cuando hace 35 años yo habría ido allí a gritar a la policía.That I pulled out some workers when 35 years earlier I would have gone there to shout at the police.


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh. And this is NOT the Spanish edition of the Onion?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't tell the New York Times from The Onion half the time...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yes you can.  The Onion is much better written and more accurate.
by rifek on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NYT rarely uses the phrase "Area man".


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Mon Jul 5th, 2010 at 10:23:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Spanish socialists and their affiliated union, UGT, got a divorce in 1988, because the party had a habit of taking advantage of the union.  

The policies of the 1980s were more about keeping wages down instead of promoting skills development and other things that allowed wages to increase while unit labor costs went down because of increased productivity.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:14:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Meanwhile their monetary policy was to fuel the first real estate bubble in order to expand the monetary mass, with the attendant corruption, transaction-based wealth capture and unskilled employment. At the time, Spain's finance minister said "Spain is the country where one can get rich the fastest" or something to that effect. This was called la cultura del pelotazo.

Only recently Zapatero's economic team dared to phase out the fiscal incentive to take on mortgages (a few thousand euros per year of interest paid on a mortgage for one's primary home is tax-deductible).

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Problem aside, I think that Zapatero and the rest are better than Gonzalez was. One of the things that's shocking to me looking through the income statistics for Spain is that the wage differential between the top and bottom appears to have shrank between 1995 and 2002, only to have opened up again when the Socialist retook power.  Sigh....

Is this a reflection of the international climate? Probably. But I think that the current government has to avoid the siren song of incomes policies that attempt to restore competitiveness through wage cuts.  There was movement towards a more "German" model in which productivity increases were created using skills training, but there's a long way to go. Particularly outside of industry, and outside of select areas, likes the Basque Country.  Did you know that if you look at the areas where this sort of focus on skills training trumped the push towards income policies that the increase in unemployment is less severe than elsewhere?

Spain is trapped between an economic structure that pushes it towards the coordinated market model, and an international politics that demands neo-liberal reforms.  

Pobre Espana, tan lejos de sobernia nacional, y tan cerca Londres.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that Zapatero and the rest are better than Gonzalez was

You may have missed this

A trait of Zapatero's government has been to propose important changes on social issues, following the Social Democratic tradition well established in Europe (and in which Spain was considerably backwards), earning a well-deserved applause on important issues which affect the quality of life of Spanish citizens. Reforms such as the Fourth Pillar of Welfare (with the approval of the Dependency Law, among other measures) have earned national and international recognition. However, this positive side of his tenure has been limited by his economic and fiscal policy, which has diminished the potential of the social measures approved by the government. And this is due to the economic thought that has guided a large part of these economic and fiscal policies, which is well defined in the book by Jordi Sevilla (the most influential economist in the birth of the current known as New Way), entitled New Socialism, with a preface by the then candidate Zapatero. In this book, Sevilla wrote
Can anyone defend in this day and age that a social democratic programme must favour more taxes and spending and introduce normative rigidities into the economy?


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the innovative stuff is coming at the regional level.  There isn't a coordinated effort from Madrid to get this shit together.  It's been a result of local initiatives, which started in the Basque Country and were copied elsewhere.

As for Zapatero.  I think that there's been a sea change in the last three years.  And to be honest, I don't think that Zapatero would have entered office if Aznar wasn't a lying bastard that tried to promote the myth that ETA was behind the Atocha attack.

That said, I still think that he's an improvement over Gonzalez.  Until very recently, really the last few months, there hasn't been talk about incomes policies.  There's been social pacts, but the scope has been much wider.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There isn't a coordinated effort from Madrid to get this shit together.

You think? Madrid is in the hands of a reactionnary who calls herself "liberal". The Left, Green and Socialist parties in Madrid have been in disarray for years.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm....

Excuse me,  I did an Americanism.  From Madrid=From Washington.

What I mean is that the national government isn't really trying to coordinate efforts that are coming from the regions.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:08:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in the context of regional policies and your focus on the Basque Country I did read "Madrid" as being the regional/local governments.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the thing about Spain.  It's sort of schizophrenic, because you have these highly industrialized, nationalist regions.  And then you have Madrid, the Castilles, and Andalucia. There's a historical basis for it, but it's strange the way these are the areas closest to France and the European core.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think about the hihgly industrialised nationalist regions spearheading burqa bans in Spain?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you in favor of burquas in Spain?
Would you support the following 6 point program being adopted by the Spanish legislature and executive branches of government?

  1. Allow Spanish Muslim communities to practice Sharia if that's what works well for them.
  2. Tolerate (or even encourage) Muslim women being forbidden (by their husbands) from driving cars, or practicing certain professions (as they are in Saudi Arabia).
  3. Legalize state support (through social security funding) of Muslim families composed of 4 wives and 12 kids (like Lies Hebbadj in Nantes, France).
  4. Completely open up its southern borders in a sign of cultural tolerance.
  5. Finance 100+ mosques with public funds in 2011.
  6. And... of course, accept bourquas.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the whole burqa ban thing is cheap immigrant-bashing by xenophobic parties.

A town in Spain just passed a burqa-banning ordinance. There appears to be exectly one burqa-wearing woman in the town.

Civil liberties are not advanced by that kind of immigrant-bashing.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:19:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. Now that you had your slippery slippery slope argument, could you please answer me this: how does a burqua ban protect burqua-wearers actually forced by men to wear it from being forbidden leaving home on foot?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Conversely, what if it is legally permitted to wear a burqua, but nobody does because doing so would invite a stoning from the Christians?
by asdf on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 08:25:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point. We have witnessed many Christian stonings of Muslims over the past couple of years. The trend is clearly worrying.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:19:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, if Spain allows women to wear burqas, it's only a matter of time before they ban women from driving.  And before you know it, people are sleeping with their pets.

Or something.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:30:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mmm. Yes. And the Swiss cheese was a bit too salty, of course.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 08:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh noes! The brown barbarians are taking over! He-alp! He-alp!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:59:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 07:18:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that a Spanish dog?
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 08:57:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think about the hihgly industrialised nationalist regions spearheading burqa bans in Spain?

Mig, aren't we talking about a single town here? Plus, is this some local PP official showing off or is it something more.

My original comment was more about economic systems than anything else.  Economic institutions in the Basque Country have been more effective in resisting neoliberalism than elsewhere.  There's been more in the way of move tripartite agreements beyond simple incomes policies into things like the training programs that make German employment more stable.

Merkel and the fixation with austerity aside, there's a lot to be said for the way that the German model integrates labor into the process.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 05:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mig, aren't we talking about a single town here?

No, actually, we're talking about a number of towns in a process spearheaded by Catalan nationalists.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:22:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I honestly didn't know that.  Is this CiU or ERC spearheading the effort.

The left/right divide is a lot more serious in the Catalan parties than they Basques, because the PNV has sucked up much of the space for nationalist politics there. There's not a lot left (at least legally) for left nationalist parties, although Aralar has been hanging on.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is not actually mainstream nationalists. But now everyone is jumping on the bandwagon, from public schools in Pozuelo near Madrid to small towns in Andalusia to the right-wing (including nationalist) Spanish Senate majority passing non-binding resolutions.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:54:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've said it before, but I'll beat a dead horse (me).

The problem with capitalism isn't exploitation, it's commodification. An ideology of economic growth starts to be questioned when that dissappears, and the truth of how much people and nature alike have been reduced to objects of exchange becomes clear.

They will seek to break free from that cage of being commodified, of being objects, and give their lives meaning.  That can come through a rediscovery of society in social democracy.  Or it can take the form of fascism.  The difference.  Is that the former supposes that all are equal, while the latter makes some hands to feed the head, and others simply alien to the body.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 07:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, just read up some on this.

Wow.  

That said.  I think it's a bad law, but I'm not one to suggest that the community shouldn't be able to create community standards.  

If you reject that, you can't be a socialist. If your response to community standards is to shout out that this is the right of the individual, then your aren't a socialist.  

You're an anarchist.  And good luck on getting an organization for effective change together with that.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose first and foremost I am a civil libertarian, even if "social liberals" tend to be too much to the economic right for my taste.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I was a bit snappy there.

I guess I am just disappointed that discussions on the Left turn to these issues.  

For all the rejection of neoliberalism that you get out of many people, I think that there's a serious problem in that many of these same activists have a problem with there being such a thing as society unless they are in charge.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 07:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ManfromMiddletown:
disappointed that discussions on the Left turn to these issues
Letfies are people too...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 04:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for Zapatero.  I think that there's been a sea change in the last three years.

To me Zapatero appears shell-shocked since the Global Clusterfuck hit spain in force two years ago...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He always did sort of look like that clown from some Steven King movie. I suspect that the shell-shock set in about 13th of March 2004......

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the vein of Hernando de Soto Polar, actually.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
embrace your inner adrenalin junkie... pretend it's a cartoon.

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 09:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, today was relatively peaceful, more massive than I expected given that it is both summer and unseasonably rainy in Athens, but only a few clashes here and there, certainly sub par for Greek standards lately.

The Government is passing a new social security law (pretty much screwing everybody, but especially working mothers) and a new labor law. The latter is really infuriating because it clearly has nothing to do with anything fiscal, and noone is even trying to defend it on rational grounds (other than marketista sloganeering), just that it was a term imposed by the "troika" (ECB, Comission, INF) in the relevant Memorandum. The government threatened yesterday to impose a freeze on private-sector wages for the next three years if no agreement is reached, exactly at the moment employers and unions were discussing the new collective agreement (which will be severely weakened anyway if the new measures are imposed), a signal to employers to not negotiate, obviously. As I said no rational arguments are presented for these moves apart from the "memorandum" and the treat of not receiving the second installment of the "loan".
The whole memorandum is the unilateral imposition of neoliberal shock treatment, dismantling what little there is of social protections and social welfare in colonial fashion. James Galbraith in Le Monde Diplomatique, states that this dismantling was insisted upon explicitly by the IMF this past January.
Interestingly small and medium business owners seem to be on the workers side as far as the pensions are concerned and not very eager to impose wage restrictions, probably because they know that if consumer purchasing power plummets they are done for as well.

Almost everybody expects things to become really difficult for the government and violent come autumn. Me, if I were a betting person I would give decent odds to the parliament building being burned down at least once before Christmas 2011, and substantial odds to the army being called in to quell the unrest. I also don't rule out a sort of "civilian coup" where the government declares a state of emergency especially if polls start showing a possible loss for the governing Socialists (right now they are showing historical abstention / blank vote levels approaching 40%) and calls on assorted neolib business, political and academic "personalities" to form an "emergency cabinet".

The only thing that might stop this unrest is despair. The mood in Athens is one of utter lack of hope and prospects. This can turn either to anger or passivity unless a viable alternative is offered.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see a lot in the austerity measure coverage regarding spending cuts. But aren't there any attempts at tax increases, particularly on taxes that would fall more heavily on wealthier individuals?  (Arguably, state salary cuts are such a tax, but are there any other examples, or is austerity always directed at the cost side and not the revenue side?)
by santiago on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:01:31 PM EST
That usually ends up being all talk. Though, sometimes one gets surprised at who's doing the talk (now even some neoliberals do it, like parts of the FDP in Germany).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I advocate a rise in property taxes, especially on real estate which is the onle tax base that cannot flee.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:11:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What are the property taxes in Spain?  Are they considered high now, or low, comparatively?  
by santiago on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Property taxes in neoliberal economies are very close to zero. How do you compare zeros?
by kjr63 on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:09:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The property tax for a 1M$ house in Scarsdale NY is about 25 000 $ per year. The tax for a 1M$ house in Paris is between 4 000$ and 6 000$.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. Scarsdale is an upscale nighbourhood. Is it comparable to the whole of Paris?

  2. Individual houses are rare in Paris. Again, what are you comparing?

  3. What's your source for these numbers?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:38:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm comparing 2 properties which have the same worth in 2 cities... Seems acceptable to me - although, of course, I attach no scientific connotation to my 'quick analysis'.
Source of the information is sufficiently credible to be referred to as being rock solid.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lynch:
Source of the information is sufficiently credible to be referred to as being rock solid.

I don't think we've ever heard that one before!

So you don't have a source for these numbers. That's cool, we'll just ignore them.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not the issue. This issue is that if property taxes are relatively low in Spain, as I think they might be, both relative to the US (where property taxes are among the highest due to the rather extreme form of federalization and multiple local governments practiced there) and to other European countries, then implementing a property tax increase is likely to be a very effective way of reducing Spain's deficit and making the wealthier pay for it, instead of service cuts or public sector wage cuts. But if property taxes are already high, as they are in many parts of the US, there won't be a lot of extra tax revenue to be gained that way.
by santiago on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's an issue well put. Otherwise, my reaction is to anecdotal evidence. We'd need a full survey of property taxes, which would probably turn out to be a complicated task -- given that these are often locally and not so much nationally determined, and that they often form a relatively ancient stratum in tax systems. No doubt because they have not, for a long time, been considered as of great significance.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 03:25:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know because that's how much I'm paying.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You own two $1M properties?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's because I don't spend all my time blogging...
Actually, banks own a good chunk of both. It's all about leverage. Given your writing, you should know that.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 01:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyway, thanks for the data point that France has less progressive taxation than New York State...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 02:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, the French fiscal system is incomparably more progressive.

Property taxes in the US don't go to the federal government - they go to municipal government. The lion's share of this income is used by town halls to finance local public education. This means that the rich, living in wealthy neighbourhoods, can finance excellent educations for their children while those in poor areas get third rate educations... preventing social mobility.

In France, local taxes are used to finance infrastructure and services which aren't deemed essential for preserving a social model which (for the time being) still benchmarks itself on the "equality of chances" criteria. These services include libraries, swimming pools, local roads, etc. while education is financed from the state budget.

by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 03:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Many, if not all, states have had to "equalize" funding for education so that all areas get a basic amount. I believe this was the result of court rulings arising out of desegregation efforts dating back to Brown vs. Board of Education, but the school funding issue came to the fore in the '70s. In California local communities can tax themselves additionally for improvement districts or find other ways of providing additional support for local school districts.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's worth noting is that Scarsdale is a choice residential location for well off NY professionals who are apparently more than keen to pay high local taxes in order to have the privilege of living in a community with excellent public services. The inconsistency between this "collectivist preference" and the rhetoric (promoted by these same people) that government, taxes and anything remotely socialist should be done away with is truly incongruous.
Looks like I'm now blogging all the time...
by Lynch on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 03:39:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You should soon not be able to afford your homes any longer...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 04:12:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. The Arc of the Career : reaches apogee, starts blogging, accelerates downward, smites Earth. (With notable exceptions.)

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 09:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The father a captain, the son a general, the grandson a blogger...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 09:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a story of social hazard induced by the catharsis of blogging...
by Lynch on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 10:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another problem in France - and a very well known necessary fiscal reform, although politicians are much less eager to apply it - is that the property values for property tax purposes haven't been reevaluated in a very long time ; about half a century. So that the (at the time) run-down parts of the centers of cities are considered much lower value than the (at the time) brand new, with-all-commodities projects in the suburbs !

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to gainsay most of what you say there, but municipalities in France do finance kindergarten and primary schools. Though the State pays the teachers' salaries, the local budget funds the rest, including assistants' salaries.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 03:29:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in the US there are the Federal education programs such as Title 1, etc. etc., intended to mitigate the expense of federally mandated changes. They do pay the salaries of administrators charged with tracking compliance. The poorer the area, the more such programs. And there is the Federal School Lunch Program - part nutritional assistance for those who qualify, part agricultural subsidy. It is so significant that it has been expanded in an ad hoc manner to weekends and summers. In Arkansas in many districts children who qualify go home Friday with a back pack full of food to see them through the weekend.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 09:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Property taxes in France are, in principle, based on a percentage of rental value (rule of thumb : one month's worth of rent per year). That's not progressive.

However, the French system is powerfully redistributive, through the system of perequation : the central government imposes redistribution of the property tax take, in order that levels of public services stay roughly equal everywhere.

Compare this to the USA, where equality of opportunity remains a nice idea.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 10:15:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Arkansas the property tax is about 0.75%/yr of the assessed valuation, which appears to be about what the property would fetch if sold. The valuation was frozen when I turned 65. The local governments and schools seem able to function well at those rates.

If I recall my property tax in California correctly, it was about 0.6%/yr of the sale value as long as you own the property. The Scarsdale NY tax is about 2.5% of valuation, it would appear. That should finance a pretty splendid set of local services.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Colorado Springs it would be about $5,000 on a $1,000,000 house. It varies widely depending on exactly where you live, though, because there are lots of special little tax districts.
by asdf on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All that uncollected tax revenue going to buy politicians who write the laws ... thank you Grover Norquist et al.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:03:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But aren't there any attempts at tax increases, particularly on taxes that would fall more heavily on wealthier individuals?  (Arguably, state salary cuts are such a tax,

State employees in Europe are usually under-remunerated relative to their qualifications (depending a bit on which proxies you use to estimate qualification). The implicit understanding is that they have greater job security and more secure salary progression than in the private sector.

If that understanding is broken on the employer side... well, that won't necessarily be cheap.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:44:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that really true though, that they are underpaid relative to what they would get in the private sector?  Clearly at the higher ends of the spectrum it is easy to see where this would be the case, but I wonder if it is really true throughout.  Does an average budget analyst, say, get paid lower in a government job compared to at a private employer?

But the real argument that cutting state employee wages is really a tax on the rich, broadly speaking, is that government employees tend to be higher skilled just due to the kinds of work that governments need done, compared to the private sector at large, which has a lot more use for lower skill employees.  Taxing higher skill people, if there are a lot of them, is an effective way of redistributing income.

by santiago on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:56:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
Does an average budget analyst, say, get paid lower in a government job compared to at a private employer?

Can not speak for all of Europe, but that would be the case in Sweden, yes. Job security - in particular in recessions - is considered worth a lower wage.

santiago:

But the real argument that cutting state employee wages is really a tax on the rich, broadly speaking, is that government employees tend to be higher skilled just due to the kinds of work that governments need done, compared to the private sector at large, which has a lot more use for lower skill employees.

The Swedish government employs anything from janitors to professors. Do we have some data to back up there being a difference?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Job security - in particular in recessions - is considered worth a lower wage.

Another point is that in the public sector you could usually expect to be protected from all the moronic MBA "management" fads that periodically sweep through the private sector when there's an excess of failed businessmen who form "consultancies." This is, at least in the high-end jobs, worth a considerable gap in remuneration.

That's changing with the infection of New Public Management, and the long-term consequences of this in terms of wage demands from mobile high-skill professionals is yet to be seen, but I suspect that it won't be pretty. (And of course, the New Public Management infection brings along the professional culture of private sector mid- and high-level managers, along with the graft, corruption and outrageous paychecks, bonuses and golden parachutes that we've come to know and love...)

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:11:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if teachers are public sector employees, they will tend to be from a quarter to half of your state sector employees, and if you insist on them having college degrees, that's enough to make the state employees much more qualified than the general workforce.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Teachers are (mainly) public employees at local level in Sweden, but then again teachers, librarians and nurses are public employees whose professions it is in Sweden uneconomical to study for compared to other college professions or life-time earnings if you have a less qualified job (like industrial worker) in the private sector. And the original point was income, not education level.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:12:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does an average budget analyst, say, get paid lower in a government job compared to at a private employer?

Broadly speaking, yes, though it depends on what sort of metrics you use - the base salary is on the same level or slightly higher, but the bonuses are more generous, and private sector employees normally expect to be paid for overtime.

But the real argument that cutting state employee wages is really a tax on the rich, broadly speaking, is that government employees tend to be higher skilled just due to the kinds of work that governments need done, compared to the private sector at large, which has a lot more use for lower skill employees.

And this is based on the same sort of fallacious post-hoc analysis that says that industrial policy redistributes from poor to middle class.

If you have a society where the people in low-skill dead-end jobs outnumber the people in high-end, high-skill jobs, then protecting industries and civil service functions is a redistribution from poor to rich. If, on the other hand, you start out with a society in which everybody, or near enough as makes no matter, works in a protected sector, then removing those protections is a redistribution from poor to rich, since the wealthy can buy their own protection and the displaced workers cannot.

Clearly, of the two outcomes, the one in which everybody works in a protected job is superior in terms of income distribution, income security and general welfare (except for the wealthy, who have to foot the full bill for these protective measures). So eliminating protections, whether from an explicit industrial policy or from a superior public sector may look as though it transfers money from rich to poor, but when embraced as a structural policy it does precisely the opposite.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And this is based on the same sort of fallacious post-hoc analysis that says that industrial policy redistributes from poor to middle class.

No, it's just a simple fact of life if people are renumerated in any way correlating to the level of their skills or education, regardless of how well everyone in society is protected. Taxing higher skill people is usually the best way to raise revenue equitably, unless income is already very equally distributed.  Is that the really the case in Spain, though?

by santiago on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 08:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any policy that redistributes from the middle class to both the wealthy and the poor is regressive - if you generalise it to the whole of society, you achieve a society where the middle class has become poor, the poor have become slightly less poor, and the wealthy make out like bandits.

It's akin to claiming that allowing scabs to steal the work of strikers is distributionally progressive: The scabs are, ceteris paribus, worse off than the unionised workers, therefore converting a union shop into a scab shop redistributes from rich to poor. I should hope that it is unnecessary to elaborate on why this is utter horseshit.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 08:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any policy that redistributes from the middle class to both the wealthy and the poor is regressive - if you generalize it to the whole of society, you achieve a society where the middle class has become poor, the poor have become slightly less poor, and the wealthy make out like bandits.

It matters really what the data says about the true distribution and upon whom the burden is really falling and the benefits accruing.   (A Gini curve can still get flatter by taking from the upper part of the middle, depending on the original shape of the curve, for example.) Spain has notoriously high unemployment, which means that it is entirely possible that transferring wealth from employed upper-middle class government workers to unemployed people is still progressive, even if the rich (high skilled non-government workers and owners) aren't asked to help in that transfer.  It all depends on the numbers and levels of rich, upper middle, lower middle, and unemployed are.

by santiago on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 09:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not really, no - not when the rich have been responsible for most of the wealth capture.

Put simply, you don't create a reasonable middle class income for the poor by impoverishing the middle classes - you do it by taxing and regulating the rich, because they own the bulk of the wealth.

While I'm sure some rich conservatives enjoy the divide-and-rule prospect of trying to set the poor, the unemployed and the middle classes fighting each other for scraps like crabs in a bucket, the point of progressive policy is to ensure that social investment is substantial and significant.

Scraps from the table aren't an acceptable substitute for that.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 09:50:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's the question:  In the case of Spain, are the rich really responsible for most of the wealth capture, and who are the rich?  In countries with large public sectors, it is quite possible that the "rich" are part of the public sector and that there just isn't a lot of extra revenue to be found by going after the relatively small numbers of industrial or financial capitalists who are richer still.  Just because taxing capitalists might be the best way to raise funds in the more inequitable Anglo countries, doesn't mean that's the case everywhere else in Europe.
by santiago on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's not a lot of data easily linked to (I don't have university access) but this paper:

http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=3136587&orden=0

suggests that Spain's top 1% have a similar order of the national wealth (20%) to those in Anglo countries.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 06:19:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Slashing wages by a percentage in public sector looks anyway like a very crude way of addressing a situation if your goal is to have a large share of the burden to fall on the rich.

Better general ways would be:

  • higher taxes on high incomes
  • higher taxes on expensive property

Better specific ways (if public sector is indeed having a lot of fat cats) would be:
  • capping wages in public sector
  • slashing wages among the top 10% of public earners


A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 07:13:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would apply the following levies:

(a) location benefit levy - a tax on land rental values which is essentially a tax on the privileged use of the land commons;

(b) a levy on gross revenues from intellectual property rights - ie a tax on privileged use of the 'creative commons' of knowledge;

(c) a limited liability levy on gross corporate revenues - limited liability is another untaxed privilege;

(d) levies on use of non-renewables - another commons - and so on.

Then I would get rid of all other taxes except levies on earned income aimed at funding education and healthcare.

There is no chance of doing this via the State, since it the privileged turkeys who manage and own the country would not enact Christmas.

But I think in the emerging networked society and economy such an architecture could well evolve.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 08:09:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(b) would mean that a company would have to keep very careful track of exactly who lived where when they were included on a patent application, because it would affect where the payment ended up. Which they already do, but under this system, cheating would be incentivized.
by asdf on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 02:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain has notoriously high unemployment, which means that it is entirely possible that transferring wealth from employed upper-middle class government workers to unemployed people is still progressive, even if the rich (high skilled non-government workers and owners) aren't asked to help in that transfer.

You are postulating that it can help the poor and lower middle class for the poor and lower middle class to gang up with the wealthy and soak the upper middle class, as opposed to the poor and middle class ganging up to soak the rich (and yes, the two are mutually exclusive - coalitions don't form and disband overnight).

I'd like to see a historical example or two of the former ever actually working to improve income and income security for the poor.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The people who own most of the wealth have a much larger proportion of the wealth than they do of the income, and they have ways of having much of wealth accumulation not show up as income either.

So splitting hairs over income taxes is, indeed, regressive. Income is not where the real inequality in economic power lies.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Historical example: Germany, starting with Bismark.  

Actually, most of European politics can be summarized as a political arrangement between the owner class and the working class and poor to tax the upper middle class bourgeoisie in order to fund large welfare states.  (See Jonas Pontusson, Equality and Prosperity: Social Europe vs. Liberal America)

by santiago on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Duplicate comment deleted.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:45:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so sad if anything would happen to it.

-Barosso


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:49:32 PM EST
With link
"This is extremely dangerous. This is 1931, we're heading back to the 1930s, with the Great Depression and we ended up with militarist dictatorship," the general secretary of the European Trades Union Congress (ETUC) said in an interview with EUobserver. "I'm not saying we're there yet, but it's potentially very serious, not just economically, but politically as well."

Mr. Monks reported that Mr. Barroso has similar concerns, but based on diametrically opposed reasoning. He said the commission chief believes the austerity packages will save Europe from returning to the darkest days of the last century rather than precipitating the fall.

"I had a discussion with Barroso last Friday about what can be done for Greece, Spain, Portugal and the rest and his message was blunt: 'Look, if they do not carry out these austerity packages, these countries could virtually disappear in the way that we know them as democracies. They've got no choice, this is it'."



By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's one to talk, having fled the exposure of his own budget number tricksery in Portugal to the Commission...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:05:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Back to the 1930s" is Krugman's refrain, also.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/28/opinion/28krugman.html

"We are now, I fear, in the early stages of a third depression."

by asdf on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 08:28:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - RMT boss issues a 'call to arms'

RMT union boss Bob Crow will call for a "generalised strike" to resist government spending cuts, claiming his union is "up for a fight".

Speaking at the union's annual conference later, the rail union leader will issue a "call to arms".

He will urge the entire labour movement to hold a sustained campaign of strikes across both the public and private sector.

He will also urge direct community action to defend public services.

Mr Crow, one of the most outspoken union leaders, will call for action to prevent "fiscal fascism being unleashed by this ConDem government".



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 08:07:08 PM EST
A "generalised strike"? Is that the opposite of specificated?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 09:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is a (slightly modified) example of Zappas law

Quote Details: Frank Zappa: Rock journalism is people... - The Quotations Page

(Rock) journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 07:56:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm afraid social unrest can only get worse better "going forward"...

The frog has to do something other than be slowly cooked to death.  Unfortunately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:10:17 PM EST
If any of Portugal, Ireland, Greece or Spain were to openly threaten default on sovereign debt or, better still, JUST DO IT, The Powers That Be would have other things to worry about than general strikes. Why let the best crisis in years go to waste? The resulting cascading failures is the only likely way that the elites can be forced to take anything like their share of the hit for all of the bad debt. Call it the Counter Shock Doctrine.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:05:36 AM EST
There is concern trolling about Spanish banks in the salmon press as we speak, and a run on Spain in the interbank markets.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 02:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Slightly off-topic, but a tucked away admission of reality:

FT.com / Financials - Spanish banks rage at end of ECB offer

"The system is just not working," agrees Simon Samuels, banks analyst at Barclays Capital in London. "We're approaching the third year of liquidity support and still the market cannot survive unaided."


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:41:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See here.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:45:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"We're approaching the third year of liquidity support and still the market cannot survive unaided."...

Or admit that it is a solvency crisis.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 08:19:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Today, El Pais has an anti-labour editorial, concern-trolling that the union's warning that the breaking of the minimum services is a harbinger for the General Strike at the end of September is not going to move most workers to join the General Strike...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:41:55 AM EST


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