Sunday Open Thread

by In Wales
Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 11:41:58 AM EST

Bring your Sunday wonders here


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It's a typical rainy, cloudy, sunny, warm, cold, cheerful and miserable bank holiday weekend here.  3 outfits just about covers the range of conditions I might encounter outdoors today.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 11:47:53 AM EST
not so much rainy, but it's very breezy here in the south east.

Sadly for discussion I got nothing. I'm just a spectator

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a balmy 84F here -- but "feels like 90F," per the Weather Channel's heat index.  Doesn't feel bad since we've got some good cloud cover.  Kinda nice going from a 40-inch rainfall city to a 65-inch rainfall city.  Makes it much more bearable.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:13:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More or less the same were I am, though it is quite cool. Temperatures are around 20°C and it looks like it will stay like this or become even colder.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 01:45:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The cold front said to end summer arrived on Friday evening here (welcome refreshment while I put together the Salon), however, today it was sunny all day again.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:19:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh but no problems here today.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 03:25:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's have a scientific Olympiad as well as one devoted to the arts | Henry Porter | Comment is free | The Observer

The prospect of the Cultural Olympiad accompanying the London Olympics in two years' time fills me with an unreasonable sense of dread. The official website says it will be "a 12-week cultural celebration across the whole of the UK. At the heart of the festival will be a programme of commissions by some of the finest artists in the world in events ranging from pop to film, from visual arts and fashion to theatre, from circus to carnival, from opera to digital innovation".

There's nothing wrong with any of that, yet at the back of my mind is the global embarrassment of the dome and the utter emptiness of its endeavour, together with the mild resentment - no doubt a hangover from school open days - at having to put on a good show for visitors. Don't get me wrong, I like the arts and I am as patriotic as the next person, if awkwardly so. It's just that I know that the commissars of culture who are planning these events fail to understand what is truly interesting and original about Britain.



never let desperation get in the way of judgement.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:08:36 PM EST
for the celebration of British scientific culture it'd have to be run by James May and Dick Strawbridge.

for the non-Brits here, these are both presenters with a schtick for being blokes with spanners who make things

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Blokes with spanners" is the Scientific equivalent of big eyed children painted on black velvet.

(LOL)

He's getting long in the tooth now but what about James Burke instead?

If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.

by ATinNM on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 01:04:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We use Brian Cox as general purpose science explainer nowadays.

but the other two have an appeal that lifts it out of the geek zone

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 01:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good grief. James Burke, possibly a spry, yet mellowed 74 year old today, sometimes reached such heights of pretension in his lightweight Italian suits that you wanted someone to walk over and slap him "Get a grip, Jimmy!"

But he did have some useful insights that could be understand by a large section of all viewers, and the series were well shot with a lot of production value. However, they would look odd if you could see them today. <ignores protestations from ATinNM that he's still happily watching reruns on KNMD, out there in the desert>

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 01:37:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Saw one a few weeks ago, strange to see how disappointingly dated it seemed

never let desperation get in the way of judgement.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
HA!

I don't have to watch re-runs because I own the series.  So there, :-þ nyah-nyah neener-neener.

Of course they look dated and of course the Gosh-Wow is So-What and We Know More Now and all the rest of it ... Connections was shot in the mid-70s  fer crying out loud.  

I don't know his intention.  Overtly the series was about change not science ... 'tho the viewer learned a bit about science along the way.

If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.

by ATinNM on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:46:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact he made a later series called "The Day the Universe Changed" which was excellent (despite the jokey, punning style - as he said it was for BBC1, Clark's Civilisation was for the more elitist BBC2). It had an almost marxist approach, with some focus on basic economic developments and (as with Connections) connecting very diverse aspects of society in a style quite unlike so much academic, specialised history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtWVfTiQQW8

The title relates to the idea of paradigm shift.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 03:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I enjoyed The Day the Universe Changed when it ran.  It never made it here in the states to the same extent his first series did and, so, is not often re-run.  

His Knowledge Web

The Knowledge Web counters the tendency of modern education to encourage specialized learning and thinking. With formal education today, learners may study either history or physics, or perhaps only Renaissance history and astrophysics," says James. "People tend to become experts in highly specialized fields, learning more and more about less and less.

is an interesting effort.  No idea how successful it has been.


If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.

by ATinNM on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:14:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I sympathize, this kind of thing:

I have a passion for four magazines which I subscribe to - Nature, New Scientist, Science and Scientific American - and it seems to me that the breakthroughs they report are not only underappreciated but also say much more about us and the universe than the arts ever could.

isn't helpful.

If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.

by ATinNM on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like most scientists he doesn't get what the humanities do, or what they're for - and he certainly doesn't get that in terms of political influence and persuasive power the humanities can kick science's ass all the way to Pluto and back.

I'm not saying this is a good thing, but 'Hey, it's science, therefore it's important' is so not how most people's understanding of reality works now.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 01:54:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The humanities may have more political clout and some of their products might go above the head of a natural scientist rather than be inconsequent balderash, but, they still just represent humanity's collective autism and don't deal with the wider world.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You've just proved my point. If you're trying to get people to do things for you, the real world matters much less than scientists and engineers think it does.

At least until it falls apart on you. But by then it's too late.

The fact that the science community has failed to understand this and believes that all it has to do is present facts and people will do the right thing is literally its biggest failure of insight since the Enlightenment.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What am I supposed to get people to do for me?...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
HSR, renewable energy, expanded mass transit systems...

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly.

Generally, stuff that works and lasts, rather than stuff that can't and doesn't.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 07:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well duh. And what please does that have to do with a critical observation about how much art resp. science says about the world?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in the comment upthread...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
The fact that the science community has failed to understand this and believes that all it has to do is present facts and people will do the right thing

I don't think you're talking about scientists or the "science community" much there...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 03:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think rather too many scientists see science as something virtuously separate from politics, except in narrow permitted bounds - i.e. not offered except when asked.

New Scientist had an interview with Phil Jones of Climategate recently and he said that he was very surprised by it all because he'd tried to keep it all completely apolitical.

As if the biggest policy issue in history, with literally trillions of profits in non-renewables at stake, was ever going to be left to disinterested research.

Scientists have spent their time chasing after homoeopaths and astrologers because of 'fraud' while economists have blown up the economy, slashed academic spending on research, closed departments, forced PhDs who could be doing useful research into jobs in finance, or put them on the dole.

Unfortunately just because someone isn't interested in politics, doesn't mean politics isn't interested in them.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 07:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"The fact that the science community has failed to understand this and believes that all it has to do is present facts and people will do the right thing is literally its biggest failure of insight since the Enlightenment."

Yawn - "it"s all about narrative" yet again - and yet another unsupported generalisation about a whole "community" - a rather diverse and argumentative one, and about the whole period since the Enlightenment - which actually did much to spread scientific ideas to a wider public - a tradition continued today - see earlier reply.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:33:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Like most scientists he doesn't get what the humanities do, or what they're for"

Probably most scientists, wisely, wouldn't come up with generalisations like this. But it works both ways and is a reflection of the UK's very early specialisation, rather than something characteristic of scientists in general.


There is a great tradition in Britain of popularising science. Charles Darwin himself was a popular science writer, for what else was On the Origin of Species but a summary in plain English of the evidence for the theory of evolution by natural selection? In the 20th century, there has been a tradition at Cambridge of science popularisers, with Arthur Eddington, James Jeans and Fred Hoyle all disseminating the biggest cosmic ideas to the general public. Hoyle even coined the term "Big Bang"during a 1949 BBC radio broadcast.

And the genre remains healthy, with the big writers including Richard Dawkins, most famous for The Selfish Gene, Simon Singh for Fermat's Last Theorem and Matt Ridley for Genome. This month came the news that Graham Farmelo won the Costa Biography Award for The Strangest Man, his brilliant biography of the Spock-like physicist Paul Dirac.

Independent

"in terms of political influence and persuasive power the humanities can kick science's ass all the way to Pluto and back."

Oh really, any evidence for this ? Or do you just mean that few politicians studied science ? But in relation to the formation of policy today I think the humanities as such (as opposed to political considerations) have little effect in contrast to the sciences, e.g. the NHS, agriculture, etc. - even though the sciences are too often neglected (again for political reasons).  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hows this for a union of Technology and Art?



If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.

by ATinNM on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 03:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Humph - an artist would have had flame adjusting to frequency.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 03:57:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An artist would have had little idea of how to achieve this - and the complexity of ideas in most of what passes for "Art" these days hardly rises above primary school level.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:35:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Science, Reason and Critical Thinking: Modern Science Map
500 Years of Science, Reason & Critical Thinking via the medium of gross over simplification, dodgy demarcation, glaring omission and a very tiny font.

The map of modern science was created to celebrate the achievements of the scientific method through the age of reason, the enlightenment and modernity. It therefore builds upon, but fails list, the origins of many scientific disciplines such as maths and astronomy that have their origins in the ancient world.


never let desperation get in the way of judgement.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 07:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wondering when I was going to jump into this discussion. Let's start here.

... the origins of many scientific disciplines such as maths and astronomy ...

Math and astronomy are NOT sciences. Question: What is a science?  Choose any area of investigation; you have independent and dependent variables. The investigator controls the levels of the independent variables. He then measures the responses of the system, i.e. the dependent variables. This is the essence of "controlled experiments".  In math and astronomy you CANNOT conduct controlled experiments, therefore, they are NOT sciences.

And don't forget to randomize you sorry bastards.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 07:42:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So if I punch you on the nose to investigate whether a dependent variable called pain appears, and I use several punches of different strengths called independent variables in a controlled experiment to see what level of pain will cause you to shut up - I am a scientist ;-)

And I shall then pin a card to your chest saying:

Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is, in its broadest sense, any systematic knowledge that is capable of resulting in a correct prediction or reliable outcome. In this sense, science may refer to a highly skilled technique, technology, or practice.


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 08:07:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Should I correct you or just let this pass?  So many errors.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 08:13:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... science may refer to a highly skilled technique, technology, or practice.

So I'm doing science when I'm watching cyberporn and playing with my pud ... "a highly skilled technique"?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 08:22:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Xenobiology?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 08:57:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you go to Wiki and look up xenobiology you are directed to astrobiology:

Astrobiology is the study of the origin, evolution, distribution, and future of life in the universe.

Well that explains everything, at least, all my jacking off. I knew I wasn't just enjoying myself, that there was "a higher purpose".

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 09:20:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Avedon Carol comments on Krugman

Krugman starts out being polite when he says;-
"I'm finding it hard to read about politics these days. I still don't think people in the administration understand the magnitude of the catastrophe their excessive caution has created. I keep waiting for Obama to do something, something, to shake things up; but it never seems to happen.
[....]
the important thing is that all signs are that the next few years will be a combination of economic stagnation and political witch-hunt. This is going to be almost inconceivably ugly."

And maybe he really does believe that the administration doesn't grasp that they are destroying America's economy and it's chances of recovery, but I think he may be forgetting that all his friends are from the Chicago school, and they think that disaster would be a good thing.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:11:17 PM EST
It's disaster across the board on the economic team.

Romer, last I checked, was leaving (she may have already).  You'll recall she was the one who said we needed a $1.2-1.4tn stimulus, and we now know her memo saying so never even made it to Obama.  That's catastrophic, but who can blame her?  If she stays, she'll be ignored anyway, plus she'll lose her tenure at Berkeley.

Volcker hasn't technically left, as far as I know, but they haven't listened to him from the start.  Same with Goolsbee, who was quickly kicked off to the "Recovery Board" with Volcker.  I suspect both of them will be gone soon.

So everybody with half a brain on economics and an ounce of political common sense has basically left.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Looking like we're going to have to hit rock bottom before the politicians realize the Neo-Classical school is plain & simply Full Of It.

If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
by ATinNM on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 01:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No. conservatism doens't fail, conservatism is fialed. If the solutions conservatism serves up don't work, it's because they weren't done hard enough or for long enough. And absolutely not because they're complete bollox from top to bottom.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 01:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a problem with neo-feudalism why, exactly?

Conservatism succeeds for conservatives. It may fail everyone else, but as far as conservatives are concerned there's no lack of everyone else to go around - and they have no guns, no money, and no lawyers.

Therefore, insignificant and disposable.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 01:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The economists pushing NCE don't care if it works any more than do those for whom they work -- and most of the politicians work for the same people.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This comment from Matt Taibi in the linked Rolling Stone article is worthy of note:
In fact if you follow Fox News and the Limbaugh/Hannity afternoon radio crew, this summer's blowout has almost seemed like an intentional echo of the notorious Radio Rwanda broadcasts "warning" Hutus that they were about to be attacked and killed by conspiring Tutsis, broadcasts that led to massacres of Tutsis by Hutus acting in "self-defense."

 - as if Charlie Manson were put in a position of power. I believe he is still available.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dived into orange...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:23:34 PM EST
BTW, does dKos now have an automatic tip jar?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tipped, recommended and commented.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:31:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cat sneaks on to train, gets lost, is reunited with owner via Twitter - Boing Boing

Via the Submitterator, Boing Boing reader Johnny Meerkat says,

A suburban cat wandered onto a city-bound train in Dublin, Ireland only to emerge at a city center station. Rail staff used CCTV to figure out which station the cat boarded at, and through Twitter, cat and owner were reunited. As a "reward," the cat was issued a rail pass.
CCTV, in this case, stands for "Cat Catching TV."


never let desperation get in the way of judgement.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:56:22 PM EST
great story, what CCTV was invented for

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 03:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So a friend invited us around for dinner this evening, and we see her circle maybe 1-2 times a year. Apparently, a lot can happen to people in that time.

Since the last time we saw them, several of these people have been going on courses on how to see auras. Srs(OMFGMYHEADSGONNAEXPLODE)ly. So naturally they had to talk about auras and mediums and Steven Hawking and all kinds of ill-digested wishful crap all mixed up together for ONE AND A HALF EXCRUCIATINGLY PAINFUL HOURS.

Gotta hand it to them though. They've all gotten so sensitive to seeing auras and interpreting their nuances THAT THEY TOTALLY FAILED TO NOTICE THAT I JUST COULDN'T GIVE A SHIT.

</rant>

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:17:28 PM EST


never let desperation get in the way of judgement.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  They would have noticed if you'd argued - or, not to be too much of a social embarrassment, asked  with them what evidence there was for any of this fascinating stuff - apart from anecdote - instead of just simmering silently :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:42:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder what's wrong with your aura. Better go to a White Witch (my older brother ... LOL) and get it checked.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 07:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Never abuse the people who work for you | Jerry Hayes

Many years ago, when I was a baby barrister, an elderly judge summoned me into his chambers. After pouring me a bowl of malt whiskey (well, it was 11am), he leaned towards me. "Young man, I'm going to give you some advice that has stood me in good stead all my life". Eagerly I awaited the words of wisdom. A catchy little line from Cicero? Some wise words from Socrates? A bon mot from Homer?  "My boy, just remember this. Never miss the opportunity to have a pee. Never trust a fart. And never waste an erection, particularly when you are on your own". Then off he staggered to sentence my client to ten years.

Well, that was good advice, but not as wise the the three cardinal rules that were drummed into me by my father. "Always buy your round. Never bollock an employee in public. And never, ever, be rude or humiliate those who can't answer back."  Those simple rules have given me an instinctive revulsion to those who are rude to secretaries, waiters or anyone who could lose their jobs if they answered back.



never let desperation get in the way of judgement.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:36:59 PM EST


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