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LQD: THIS is what Occupy Wall Street is all about

by Ted Welch Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 06:01:28 PM EST

THIS is what Occupy Wall Street is all about: some basic, shameful facts about the US today. it's also fun to watch P.J. O'Rourke put down - and the audience giving a standing ovation to Grayson. If only more Democrats could be as convincing as this:

Grayson quickly clarifies for O'Rourke why they're there, in beautifully succinct point-by-point form.

Grayson: Let me tell what they're talking about. They're complaining about the fact the Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobody's held responsible for that.

Not a single person has been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries.

They're upset about the fact that wall street have iron control over economic policies of this country and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of wall street and the other party caters to them as well, that's the truth of the matter as you said before. And…

O'Rourke: Get the man a bongo drum, they've found their spokesman!

Grayson: If I…

O'Rourke: Get your shoes off, get a bongo drum, forget where to go to the bathroom and it's yours.

Grayson: If I am the spokesman for all the people who think

we should not have twenty four million people in this country who can't find a full time job.

That we should not have fifty million people who can't see a doctor when they're sick.

That we shouldn't have forty seven million people of this country who need government help to feed themselves.

And we shouldn't have fifteen million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of home, OK, I'll be that spokesman.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/econ-101-alan-grayson-schools-pj-orourke


Display:
FOR ONCE! Bill Maher has someone on who can articulate the core of the problem with our country and he actually lets him make his point and doesn't walk all over him for cheap comedic mal-effect. Thanks for putting this up, as I have stopped watching what ever it is he calls his show.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 11:37:21 PM EST
Yea, but Grayson is not just one of the good guys, he's also a professional pol. Which means that he's seriously schooled in getting his point over.

O'Rourke is just a wannabe right wing shock jock who lost his job to more outrageous wingnuts like Limbaugh and Coulter. So he's restricted to being a low watt smart-alec and bully on talk shows.

It was a mis-match and Maher stood back and enjoyed the fun. He wouldn't have allowed it if it had been at him.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 02:34:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
he's also a professional pol. Which means that he's seriously schooled in getting his point over.

Oh my. I didn't think I'd hear you say that. I mean, you have taken a look at the others, haven't you?

And Grayson at least knows what point needs getting over.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 02:51:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually I don't know who the other two are.

But, however annoying they are when they do it, pols tend to be very good at putting over their point very succinctly; they're taught the key phrases, the cadence and intonation needed to dominate conversations. Grayson had a useful narrative and he blew O'Rourke away. But I've seen the same tricks used to more destructive purposes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 03:12:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
the other two

No, I wasn't talking about the people in the studio, but all our "leftwing" politicians, US and Europe combined (include some EU conservatives like Cameron, Sarkozy, Merkel). Grayson is streets ahead of them.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 03:59:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed. Whether or not he polished his points beforehand, he's eloquent. I hope he has a future.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 05:11:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree. In particular the last bit is very illustrative, he then used a piece that was prepared to grab the space while looking like he answered a question.

The structure looks something like this:
Question?
Answer: That is interesting, but... / What you're missing is... / If you mean.../ etc

  • bulletpoint 1
  • bulletpoint 2
  • bulletpoint 3
So... [something that looks like an answer to the original question]

Note also that he starts it, gets cut off, ignores the bongo part and just restarts at the beginning of his set piece.

He does it well, and we like him for using it to deliver a good message, but it is a trick that can be used to deliver any message.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 09:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a reason that pre-law students have long been advised to major or minor in what ever is currently called "Speech", formerly called Rhetoric and a part of Aristotle's quadrivium. The skills necessary to persuade a jury are the same as those required to persuade an electorate.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 11:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The importance of rhetoric is however most likely just a sign of regression. The late roman empire focused in higher education only to rhetoric and nothing else.

Plato said that a good speech does not need facts, only "credibility." According to Aristotle a good speech has ethos, pathos and logos. Cicero emphasised before saying anything, first making mess of listener's mind. American neocons were good students of Cicero.

by kjr63 on Thu Oct 13th, 2011 at 01:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if you have nothing to say, say nothing. But better, have something to say and say it, no matter what they ask. Pay no attention to the question, make your own statement. If they ask you the same question again, you just say, 'That's not the question' or 'I think the more important question is this:' Then you make another statement of your own.

- Yes, Prime Minister

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 03:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I ever understand half of what Humphrey understands I shall become a terrible cynic.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 03:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
remember ed millipede a few months ago? viral classic...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 11:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"A cynic is just what an idealist calls a realist."
-- Appleby.
by njh on Mon Oct 24th, 2011 at 06:06:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This "serious schooling" must be a joke.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 03:19:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A good politician is a master of the thought-on-your-feet segue, which is a method of linking and packaging "talking points" to be effective in a particular communication environment.

This requires a command of the facts and an understanding of the 'infrastructure' of the issue. It is not the same as reciting the same talking points whatever the question and whatever the context - a mind-numbing response tactic that Paxman has often exposed when politicians don't know how to segue.

Most 'media political schooling" is of the recitation variety i.e. how to stick to the message, with some elementary advice on the media pitfalls to avoid.

I'm not sure that the art of the segue can be "schooled". It requires a wide understanding of issues, and how they are perceived in different contexts. You need to be passionate about issues to be able to do it, and teaching passion to almost any current Finnish politician is very hard work, according to media training experts I know. (And I believe there is a lack of passion in these 'experts' also).

mumble mumble...the new occupiers of Wall Street have that passion - and they don't need segues - every single person there is a talking point. It's a new game, (or an old one called 'democracy') and we depend on it succeeding.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 09:55:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think in practice you can be an effective pol - or at least an electable pol - just by knowing how to recite talking points.

It's possible we overestimate the ability of pols to ad lib. Even during PMQs, the best retorts will have been pre-planned.

And if you think about it, glib retorts have nothing to do with being able to understand and implement good policy. It's one of the tragedies of democracy that the ability to lie convincingly is so much more persuasive than a track record of effective or inspired decision making.

As long as that continues to be true, we're going to keep electing the worst and the most venal instead of the best and brightest.

As for Grayson - he has some slightly shady anti-Palestinian opinions, and he's known for being an effective fund-raiser for himself. So it's naive to think he's entirely altruistic.

But he's one of the most effective Dems around at the moment as far as media presence goes.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a presidential run in a term or three.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 10:05:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And Grayson, in fact, was voted out of the US Congress in 2010 after just one term despite (or because of) his radical positions and his visibility.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 10:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The seat he held was one the Florida Dems did not expect to win in 2008, but he rode in with Obama. It is generally expected that he could win and hold many seats in south Florida, given an opening.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 11:24:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow. After all the years returning to South Florida, that's hard to imagine, Geez. Sure, there are some pockets of liberal opinion, mostly heavily jewish communities, but---what are you thinking here?

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 05:15:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As the resident native South Floridian, I'm inclined to ask you the same thing.

South Florida -- and by "South Florida," it's generally meant to include Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade counties -- is pretty damned liberal.  It's not Manhattan or San Francisco, but it's pretty reliably north of 60/40 on the whole.  In a bad year for Dems, Miami-Dade can be down to 53/47-ish, Broward in the mid-60s, and Palm Beach in the low-60s.

In 2008:
Palm Beach -- Obama 61-38 McCain
Broward -- Obama 67-32 McCain
Miami-Dade -- Obama 58-42 McCain

In 2004:
Palm Beach -- Kerry 60-39 Bush
Broward -- Kerry 64-35 Bush
Miami-Dade -- Kerry 53-47 Bush

In 2000:
Palm Beach -- Gore 62-35 Bush
Broward -- Gore 67-31 Bush
Miami-Dade -- Gore 53-46 Bush

There are pockets of wealthy conservatives along with the Cuban population (which tends to be very conservative), and the legislature obviously manages to chop up the districts in a way that brings more Republicans than you'd get if Dems held the legislature.  But it's still overwhelmingly Democratic.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 09:14:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So how does this voting history invalidate what I wrote? If Grayson becomes the Democratic candidate in part of a heavily Democratic district why should he not win?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 10:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From Wiki:
The district Grayson represented includes just over half of Orlando, including Downtown, Winter Park, significant portions of unincorporated Orange County, as well as Celebration, Walt Disney World and parts of Lake County, Marion County and Ocala. Grayson was defeated for re-election in 2010 by Republican Daniel Webster.[1]

I never said he won a South Florida seat in 2008. And criticisms that seemed too radical in 2009 and 2010 might be more appealing by now. The opinion on his possible future in national politics from Florida is a summary of someone who WAS familiar with Florida politics. I just cannot remember who.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 10:35:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He was a product of a great election climate in 2008, and a victim of a horrible one in 2010.

Looking at those areas, it shouldn't be surprising.  Downtown Orlando is, I'd guess, pretty liberal.  Winter Park is probably pretty moderate.  With the possible exception of a few parts of Ocala, unincorporated Orange County, Celebration and the rest are the crazies.

Also, it's completely ridiculous that a district would stretch from Kissimmee to Ocala.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Oct 13th, 2011 at 06:16:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i blame it on bushrot. his jebness rules as symbol of florida politics, plus the dwb/gore election left most feeling florida was as corrupt as it gets.

ergo, repug! easy mistake...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 11:23:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Otherwise, sure, O'Rourke is a nobody.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 02:51:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The grin on Bill Maher's face at the end of it is wonderful...

"Give the guy some bongos"...

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 04:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i get his podcast, and enjoy the guests he invites. considering his fanbase is none too sophisticated, while not being pig-ignorant either, the subjects discussed are relevant and interesting. he's very irreverent and genuinely funny, imo, though 10% 0f his humour is too sophomoric.

definitely an amusing podcast to listen to while driving to town...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 08:06:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Bill Maher is often very good, and lost his other show for being outspoken, here he is being very serious about Occupy Wall Street and letting Van Jones make some good points:



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 12:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I watch pretty much every show eventually ... but the monologue, sometimes the special guest, skip the panel, and then new rules. Sometimes listen if the drop-in during the panel looks worth it or if there is a staged bit that might be mildly amusing. I've long since given up watching "the panel".

And now it turns out that even if something does happen, I still don't lose anything from fast forwarding, because its sufficiently newsworthy that it made a cable news show I watch.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 04:20:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How Alan Grayson exposes the fraud of the showroom dummies (h/t ThatBritGuy) that all our politicians are. We need a Grayson, we need a generation of Graysons. Kudos!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 02:26:49 AM EST
And yet those idiot Floridians "unelected" him. Hopefully he'll be back in there fighting for the ungrateful populace soon enough.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 07:17:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Given the avalanche of attack ads on the TV machine in the two weeks before an election, in a district that tilts Republican and an election when the Democrats are staying home, the loss was not surprising. "The Republican Health Plan: Don't Get Sick. And if you do get sick, Die Quickly." ~ that earned lots of pharma and health insurance money to try to bury him.

AFAIU, he'll be challenging in a district that he has a better shot of winning and holding. And I hope he does, it'll really cheese off Wall St, Big Oil, and Big Pharma.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 04:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
P.J. O'Rourke used to be mildly funny; now he's just pathetic like Dennis Miller.  He first truly pissed me off with his "Parliament of Whores" which should have been named "Parliament of Pimps" - whores sell their OWN product, they don't sell someone else's and keep the money, which is what Washington, D.C. does, selling the People's government to the oligarchs and pimping themselves up to their necks in the profits while the People are left bruised and used up on the curb.

And besides being a more accurate title, it would also have benefited from alliteration.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 07:25:59 AM EST
Ah! Alliteration - always admirable.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 08:06:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bruised and used, but not defused!!

Occupy Wall Street!

Check it out. Powerful stuff.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 05:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Upstate NY on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 09:29:53 AM EST
Yea, tis pretty good

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 10:09:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's easy to find excuses to be cynical about politicians, but I think it's a good idea to welcome it when one of them does make some important and damning points about the system well enough to have people on their feet. Particularly in a context where, whatever their training, so few do so, and that's largely because, as Grayson himself points out, (not endearing himself to other Dem politicians, nor to the usual sources of funding):


They're upset about the fact that wall street have iron control over economic policies of this country and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of wall street and the other party caters to them as well, that's the truth of the matter...



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 12:04:30 PM EST
Agreed, with a whole heart. But let's not forget Feingold and Kucinich. These guys have stopped every bullet around, and still keep firing away.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 05:28:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It gets a little over-wrought (imo) towards the end, but this is a useful juxtaposing of the comments of Obama and Clinton criticizing the authorities' clampdowns upon the Arab Spring protests with video of the NYPD response to #OWS



keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 06:56:51 AM EST
Great stuff. If only Americans can see it on Fox news..

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 06:25:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
don't worry, we've got youtube.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 06:32:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Protest is slowly disappearing ... and it is normal. It's just a good beginning. I can't count how many protests we had in Belgrade...People cannot live on the streets for ever. Organisers (now they formed somebody to organise things and that's good, because they do not have political party to back them) now need to work more than ever on future events that will happen now and then. It needs to be inspiring, very inspiring so they need to put more imagination in it. They may need some professionals...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 11:23:53 PM EST
Yes, NYC in autumn isn't quite the same as Tahrir sq in springtime. Plus the situation in Egypt was more desperate than that of the US.

So, they will have to think forward as to how they maintain the momentum as the crowds on the streets retreat. They're gonna have to organise something more than a protest, maybe takeover expensive restaurants or Wall st canteens and feed the homeless. Find ways to inconvenience banks and bankers.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Oct 13th, 2011 at 02:50:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They have to think how to destroy American dream actually. Because American dream is a big fat lie.
Narrative "If you are not rich do not blame anybody but yourself" is so mean and is striking straight to American soul. The fact is that statistically very few people advance from the class they were born in,  in to a higher class, no matter what effort they may put in it...and it is usually strike of luck combined with some entrepreneur's talent (or better said lack of morals).No matter how educated one may be, the ability to understand how money "works" is quite rare. And also for those who understand it, it takes greed and lack of morals to properly use this knowledge, in order to really get rich.
I do not know why people seem to believe that by hard work only they can get rich. It is such a lie. Yes if you work hard you will advance yourself and your way of life to the point, but as we see now they (real rich) will at some point "organize" to strip you from your advancement. It was never meant to be society of equal...especially not in America.
Some societies tried to make equal opportunities for everyone...but it seems to be long time ago, ha-ha. Equal opportunities (in education mostly) actually was designed to make more educated working class because that's what is needed and will be needed in the future, with advanced technologies entering commercial field. And also more educated people in work force mean lower salaries for them (holy market).


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Oct 13th, 2011 at 06:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno, I liked this;-

Liberty for these youth does not mean freedom from a British sovereign, but the ethic is the same. They want liberty from being thrown to and fro by a financialized economy that rewards gambling, fraud, and theft but punishes work, thrift and invention. They want liberty from a political system which not only ignores, but actively seeks to disenfranchise them. They want liberty from a global economy that benefits only a handful of people fortunate enough to be global citizens with private jets. They want liberty just as much as Americans did two centuries ago. They are doing what those young people of old did: assembling for their inalienable rights.

What we are witnessing is the rebirth of the American Dream in a new generation. If they didn't believe in it, they wouldn't be fighting for it. For all those who ask "what do the protesters want" the answer is clear and obvious: They want life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They want The American Dream. The tide is turning. Sooner or later, they will have it. The times we are in, the crest of the dismal tide, is nothing new. Our ancestors, in one way or another have fought the tide before. This country is hard on people. Sometimes just a little bit too hard. When it gets too hard, a generation of young Americans will arise and give meaning to liberty, once again, in its own way, for its own time.

I know what you mean about the American dream having become perverted, but stated like this it's a fairly reasonable aspiration. It's the same aspiration that motivated uprisings in the Arab spring, it's what drives An San Suu Kyi, Nelson Mandela. People want hope, they're prepared to work hard but, if they put in the hours, they want to end their days in a better place rather than just exhausted while some other bastard lives high on the hog on the back of their labour.

We are the 99% and we're sick of supporting the parasitical elite

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Oct 14th, 2011 at 02:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, it can be kept up indefinitely because the crowds aren't all the same people -- not in NYC or in the same actions sprouting up in cities all over the country.  Most of the people there have full time jobs and participate in some of the time, rotating few.  And there are not just a few Wall Street workers among them, even.  Funding for this has been strong as well.  If it doesn't go on indefinitely, it won't be because of the things like the weather or that people have other lives to get back to. Just keeping the protest going is enough -- nothing more dramatic is needed for this to work.
by santiago on Thu Oct 13th, 2011 at 11:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that's gonna be a hard ask in a New York winter, especially if/when the NYPD start confiscating their gear on a regular basis.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Oct 14th, 2011 at 02:47:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not really.  The gear is already prohibited and isn't even necessary if people rotate their time in the place, as they are already doing. They are already prohibited from lying down even. The crowds might go down when it gets cold, but as long as there area enough people to make a big issue when the police try to forcibly remove them from a licensed meeting site (which can be kept up by unions and others getting the licenses), then there is no reason it ever has to end. NYC is a big city, so there is no logistical reason that a few hundred people can't be found to be there at all times to keep the space alive indefinitely.  Other cities' Occupy sites are already doing that.
by santiago on Fri Oct 14th, 2011 at 02:56:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's good to keep going but if they does not have massive crowd from time to time (organised marches, maybe during weekend or similar) it's going to be forgotten crowd soon...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Oct 14th, 2011 at 09:02:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there is enough energy in this to have those marches and attention-getting actions weekly, if not more, especially since other cities are doing the same and can take up the slack.  The main thing to look for is whether people are having fun while doing this, and they are.  It's a blast for most participants.  People aren't angry or burning with ire and futility here -- their anger is a righteous kind, like the classic soliloquy so popular in so many American films (and that so many Europeans hate about the films) where the climax at the end is when the hero gets to give a satisfying speech about truth, justice and doing what's right to whomever is the "man" in the film.  That's what is driving so many people out right now -- the ability to give it back to the Tea Party and to chastise the President and other leaders for not having done this earlier.  It's great theatre and tremendously entertaining for people to be involved in, and I think it can go on for a long time as long as the entertainment and fun in doing this continues.  At least through the next election.
by santiago on Fri Oct 14th, 2011 at 11:39:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, yes. Entertaining hunger, fun in foreclosure. Jobless joy.

Here's an eloquent and angry funseeker. Jesse LaGreca and Grayson should meet.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Oct 16th, 2011 at 01:32:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah...but this is not entertainment at all. This is a fight for life. They are preparing us for "cataclysmic" 2012 when they expect shit to hit the fan, I suppose. And they do not even pretend that it's going to be fun.
Trouble is , to keep people on the streets you need to either entertain them or to make them angry enough to fight (police).You see , when ever protesters numbers become higher we see police violence starting, arrests  etc. While they are "singing" small bunch police does not bother to intervene. Only after clashes when crowd is dispersed police would attack small groups in revenge.
I am not advocating any kind of violence on protesters side but singing is not going to do the job. They need to engage brother public for action. In order to that they need CLEAR tasks...explaining people what is their course of action? People hesitate to join them because they do not want to feel like bunch of hippies etc. They need more actions. But as we learned that the best resistance movements in the world lately were organised by CIA (ha-ha) they will need to search for help elsewhere. They need lawyers to see what is possible to achieve for examples with petitions, they need unions (not just to support them) but to organise strikes.
I wasn't in Serbia at the time but it seemed as a good idea to me when they organised every night at the time of main news on TV that everyone gets to his window , open it and make a big noise (hitting dishes etc.). And noise became louder and louder every single night...Even those scared to protest on the street had a chance to show their anger and frustration and to feel that they participated. Someone had to get big bonus in CIA for that idea, ha-ha. Well with a little of imagination they can do a lot...
Protest is spreading and it is becoming international. They can think how to use new media like Internet and organise same kind of protest worldwide at the same time...that would wake them up because they do not like to see organised resistance...And so on...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Oct 18th, 2011 at 12:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Civil rights lawyer:



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2011 at 11:43:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When I said that protest may be orchestreted I did not mean this (in Serbian):
http://pressonline.rs/sr/vesti/vesti_dana/story/181291/Srbi+i+CIA+organizovali+ustanak+u+Americi.htm l

Here is transation

The U.S. government has engaged the founders of the Serbian "Otpor" movement to organize protests on Wall Street to create a counterweight to the influential conservative movement "tea party", according to the most famous right-wing conspiracy theorists in the U.S. and the UK.
...Ivan Marovic, one of the founders of "Resistance", now known globally as a promoter of non-violent struggle against the dictatorship, held in September speech to the protesters in New York, which was identified in some quarters as a direct connection, "Resistance" organizing movement "Okupirajmo Wall Street."
 ...Jones wrote that Marovic one of the "founders 'Resistance' - a key organization in the Serbian wars of the nineties, which had the effect of the recent protests in Egypt."
...Ivan Marovic, who after 5 October promoting video games on non-violent dictatorship shift confirms the Press that he was in New York in late September, but that has nothing to do with the organization of protest, which, he says, best seen from the fact that he is now in Belgrade.
That day I had a lecture at New York University. After the lecture, the organizers and the students they took me with him to Zukoti park, where they protested.
They asked to speak and I told them about the importance of symbolic occupation.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Oct 15th, 2011 at 02:11:31 AM EST
hahahahahaha

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Oct 15th, 2011 at 02:53:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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