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Sunday Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 09:26:56 AM EST

Just said goodbye to the last remaining ETers in Paris (there were about 12 of us yesterday, plus a number of kids - I presume photos will be posted when people get back home), and went to vote in the French socialist primary. Newspapers already note that more than a million people people participated as of the early afternoon, so overall participation could be several million in the end. In my (very right wing) area, there were 10-15mn lines to vote and the organisers told me it had been like this all morning, so this would tend to support the notion of a pretty high participation rate, which will give good legitimacy to the whole thing.

Update: I've posted a story on the primary vote over at the Orange place


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I didn't feel at all concerned by the thing up until a few weeks ago, and now it seems very important. I think that's somewhat indicative of a general trend.

Still hesitating as to who to vote for. Montebourg is the candidate making the right noises, and if he beats Royal for third place that would be a good signal. On the other hand, if Aubry is seriously behind Hollande this evening, that would be bad news for the second round... I'm dithering.

I hope I have motivated my elder daughter into voting - she's not yet on the electoral roll but has just turned 18, apparently that's good enough for the PS.

Of course, all this tends to take the wind out of the sails of the EELV campaign -- that, among other things, is what it's for. But, barring  major disaster, it's the next President we're choosing, so...

My guess is that the big turnout is not good for Hollande the centrist, but for Aubry (and probably Montebourg too), because it's the actual self-identified left who's turning out. On the other hand, his whole campaign is subliminally designed to get disaffected right-wingers to vote for him. But will they be prepared to pay their euro and sign the pledge? I have my doubts.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 09:40:33 AM EST
Are Royal and Aubry really to the left of Hollande? They seem to differ mostly in personality and occupy the same political space.
by IM on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 10:24:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hollande has chosen a "serious people" pitch, angling for centre-right people who are "disappointed" by Sarko. Aubry has played another sort of legitimacy, that of 100+ years of socialism, 200+ years of progressive politics. Solidarity, an inclusive caring society, and so on. Is he fundamentally further right than her? I think so.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 02:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Will that turnout sustain for a second vote next week?  I imagine the deal-making has begun in earnest, but as Hollande has been the "favorite" for many months it is reasonable to conclude that many of those who voted for others are voting against him.  The "anti-Hollande" vote is therefore in the neighborhood of 60%, leaving him vulnerable.

Does Montebourg line up as a possible Prime Minister partner for Aubry?   Many tell me that the French would not elect a woman, I don't think there is much truth to this, but how relevant does this become in a 2nd round PS primary?

by paving on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 08:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is that the people who turned out for the first round already knew who they would vote for in the second.

The deal-making is nice for the egos of those concerned, but won't shift many votes :

  • Emmanuel Valls is not even centre-left, he's centre-right. He has already given his support to Hollande for the second round, and it's something of a poisoned gift.

  • Montebourg's support is in large part, probably more than half, from people who won't vote for the PS candidate in the first round of the presidential election : Greens, Communists, and a handful from the far left. The biggest danger for Aubry will be that they may not all turn out for her next weekend. Virtually none will go to Hollande.

  • Baylet's faithful few, the rural rump of the Left Radicals, will go to Hollande, who, now that I think about it, has positioned himself as a sort of reincarnation of their late 19th century values.

  • A possible exception : Royal's loyal rump is probably emotionally attached to her, and may be swung by her call, which she has reserved for later in the week.


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 04:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it hard to believe that Royal would endorse Hollande...
by paving on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 02:42:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any expectations on the outcome?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 10:39:31 AM EST
suggested something like 40% for Hollande, 30% for Aubry, and the rest mainly split between Royal and Montebourg, but these polls are not expected to be very reliable as nobody knows what sample to use to identify voters to these primaries.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 11:30:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it's roughly that, 40/30

BUT : Montebourg has an estimated 17%, which is huge (leaving Royal in the dust, around 7%)

If the final result is close to that, it's looking very good for Aubry for the second round.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 02:36:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
provisional (then final) results here

(warning: slow to load)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 02:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
according to TV, so should be less than 10% in the end... this should ensure a second round victory for Aubry.

Holland is past master of backroom deals, but even if he, for example, promises to make Montebourg his prime minister (which would be incongruous), Montebourg can't tell people how to vote. This is a clear signal that the presidential election must be fought with a clear left wing program. This is a rare historical opportunity to win a clear mandate with a coherent program for change.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 02:50:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How clear? According to the present projections, it's 31% for Aubry and 17% for Montebourg, vs. 39% for Hollande and 7% for his ex-wife; 48% to 46% in total. Where do the other two (Baylet at 1% and Valls at 6%) stand on issues?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 03:21:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Royal has been trying to run to the left of Aubry actually...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 03:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we have Aubry 32%, Montebourg 20%.
Even better in my polling place : Aubry 37, Montebourg 19

Overall, the results are looking pretty final :


Montebourg  17
Aubry       31
Baylet       1
Valls        6
Hollande    39
Royal        7


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 04:19:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SKi areas opened in Colorado yesterday. With our late close (July) and early opening, we are now a nine month per year ski destination.

In the city of Colorado Springs we had a bit of rain/sleet/snow yesterday, but even in the low foothills this morning there is good snow cover down to about 2500 meters elevation...

by asdf on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 11:52:19 AM EST
Bremen was down to +1C last night, wow. Very fresh bike ride today, through the industrial harbor area. Found a U-boat bunker.

Saw a tanker docking, with a windmill in the background (they're all over the place). Ship's much bigger than it looks.



"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 12:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PS. Besides my love of touring dockside industrial areas (especially on Sunday when it's quiet and empty, unlike the beautiful country lanes), i'm always impressed with how windpower is no big deal here. There's more than a dozen in the harbor area itself, with others visible in the distance.

There's all manner of controversy about windmills and radar around the world. Bremen's airport has been ringed with them for years. No big deal.

Here's a teaser for a future diary. who can guess what the building taking shape in the background is for?



"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 02:59:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
building giant accordions?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 03:18:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that was the building's previous use.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 04:13:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Blimps?

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere
by ATinNM on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 03:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe an aerodynamic testing laboratory?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 03:21:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Imagine a 60m rotor blade anchored at the small end. Imagine the tip flapping at the large end. Wow. Fatigue measurement plus.

Here's where the computation will be done, and the espresso machines housed. (the giant building is in the background lower right.) Looks like a blade, no?



"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 03:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, so I guessed right? What is the directional axis of the airflow: up-down or left-right?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 03:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a wind tunnel

Can be used for static failure testing or fatigue. Either pile weights on it 'til it breaks, or flap it many thousands of times 'til it cracks. all the while measuring strain.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 04:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh. How is it flapped: moved at he root end?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 04:13:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure for this one.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 04:22:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though highly likely cycled at the root.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 01:45:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PS. rather, lower left.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 01:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As noted in an update, I've posted a story on the primaries over at DailyKos

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 12:50:06 PM EST
A Dick Van Dyke marathon on the tube and Al Davis croaked. Blessings to us all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 03:20:02 PM EST
Seriously, I loved Al Davis for the entertainment value (like when he fired a coach for reasons of "propaganda") but it's good news for Oakland that he's gone.
by paving on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 08:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NewsBiscuit: French food experts discover you really can taste cruelty.

The discovery comes after years of research. `We prepared identical meals from two groups of chickens. One brood was fed on corn in a grassy field, while the other was kept in a tiny pen in our lab, and fed on kit-kats and blu-tac. There was always an assistant on hand to shout disparaging remarks, and show them pictures of a fox licking its lips. Once they were properly upset, we drowned them in Tizer and fed them to a control group with no experience of gourmet food, a group we call `Germans'.'

The results were remarkable. `The abused chickens were over 73% more luscious than the happy chickens. We'd expected to see some link between bad husbandry and good cheffery, but this was beyond our dreams. And we French spend a lot of time dreaming.'



You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 04:09:21 PM EST
Naturally I'm not in the photo nor is Pi or Redstar and family who arrived latzer.

Left to right: Cyrille with Elwan, Helen, dvx, >Jerome, Jake S, linca, afew, Colman with Alexander, Sam with Christopher and Nomad.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 04:18:36 PM EST
I thought your flash had failed and you didn't get the picture.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 05:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, despite indications to the contrary, I was there.

Twas fun although I want to apologise for wimping out in the middle of the evening on Saturday. I am not good with wine and had "enjoyed" the afternoon's refreshment a little too much and so was obliged to retire early. I hear I missed a great debate on the usefulness of revolution, which, seeing as I have excessive views on the subject, is probably for the best.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 05:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it was a great discussion, it reminded me of something I saw somewhere: "How do I know what I think until I see what I say?" :-) So in such discussions one can discover what one was only vaguely aware of believing and finding out why you do. Some might have found my views "excessive" so perhaps I could have done with your help - unless you're excessively against revolution.

I think that in a context where those in power seek to denigrate the idea of revolution it's important to defend the general idea of the need for radical change and that revolutions are not inherently doomed to failure, but external forces have often crushed or led to their distortion. I don't welcome bloodshed and chaos, revolution can take a variety of forms and come in many different contexts, the Arab Spring has been relatively non-violent and has to be seen in context of decades of brutal repression of those seeking a more just society. Revolutions can be long-drawn out processes, we'll have to see what happens in Egypt, etc. but I think important steps have been taken, and those who might have intervened to suppress them have had to declare their support for greater freedom and democracy - but we'll have to see; I'm well aware that those with power don't give it up easily.

But the idea of the need for radical social change needs to be defended as do examples of revolutions which have brought such change, despite the efforts of those in power to do everything to destroy and discredit them. One constantly sees media reports about repression in Cuba; but these real fruits of revolution need celebrating, they are what the US fears "the threat of a good example". I think many of the 99% of Americans Occupy Wall Street represents would be envious of this, if they were ever informed about it:

"Take health care for example. It's world-class, and Article 50 of the 1976 Constitution mandates it for all Cubans. They get free medical, hospital and dental care including prophylactic services with emphasis on public health, preventive care, health education, programs for periodic medical examinations, immunizations and other preventive measures. The Constitution also guarantees worker health and safety, help for the elderly and pregnant working women, and paid leave before and after childbirth. In addition, Cuba's Public Health Law obligates the state to assure, improve and protect the health of all citizens, including providing rehabilitation services for physical and mental disabilities.
 
Compare this to World Health Organization's (WHO) rankings for America - 37th in the world in "overall health performance," 54th in health care fairness, worst of all western countries overall, and only developed nation besides South Africa with no single-payer national health insurance system.

...
but at the same time Cuba's no paradise. Its problems are huge, and as Petras puts it, it faces new "challenges and contradictions:"

http://www.rense.com/general80/wass.htm

As Gore Vidal said, roughly, during the status quo one should be for the revolution, and during the revolution one should be critical of it.

To the barricades - or facebook pages :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 06:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
reports on Nicaragua were similar, its literacy and education figures shot through the roof during the sandanista period,  

statistically revolutions result in a change of government about one time in three, unless the Army can be persuaded to join the revolution, in which case  it becomes roughly two in three

However just because a revolution has resulted in a change of government, It's most likely  that it will be a change from one sector to another of the middle class that gets left in charge.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 07:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's most likely  that it will be a change from one sector to another of the middle class that gets left in charge.

This has been said of the French Revolution, with some truth, but it must also be said that the redistribution of the prime third of agricultural lands held by the Church was a significant benefit to the society and economy, as was the substitution of Code Napoleon and constitutional monarchy for divine right and feudal custom. Other innovations took longer to resurface after the restoration, really until the emergence of The Third Republic.

In our current situation a change from haut bourgeiose  bankers and their minions to a group more representative of the broader population backed by a fundamental change to totally public election finance would be of great significance while still being " a change from one sector to another of the middle class" . But it must be accompanied by a broader understanding of the limitations and implications of the current unsustainable system.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 12:34:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's most likely  that it will be a change from one sector to another of the middle class that gets left in charge.

Maybe, but maybe it's more useful in the context of all the powerful opposition to radical change to emphasise the more encouraging possibilities and some of the actual achievements, as in Cuba, despite ruthless attempts to destroy the system.

If you assume that there is no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are opportunities to change things, then there is a possibility that you can contribute to making a better world."

 Noam Chomsky



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 05:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is wonderful: Old Sainsburys packaging from the 1960s & 70s http://t.co/3hzk5DoS My favourite: Cornflakes http://t.co/locntyqZ

packed with childhood memories

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Oct 9th, 2011 at 06:24:11 PM EST
Re: Anglo Disease

Just wondering - - -
Given the current status of Dexia and other European banks, would you be willing to step back from your previous use of the term "Anglo disease"?

At the very least - "Anglo-Belgian-French Disease"?

As you well know, I thought it was inappropriate then -and events over the past three years suggest that the malady was far more universal in the halls of capital than a single cultural/ethnic label might indicate.

<a href="http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/2/3/10253/66655">http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/2/3/10253/66655</a>

by jamawani on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 11:05:39 AM EST
Ah, no. Although I always grumbled that it should be called Chicago disease, after Al Capone the Chicago school of Friedmanite economics, JaP's assertion that this idiocy came to prominence in the english speaking financial sphere.

It was then effectively imposed on the rest of the World via institutions such as the World Bank and IMF as well as by the conversions of significant parts of the European elites to the enhanced possibilities of wealth capture under such a programme. So, just as La Marseillaise is always the French national anthem wherever and by whomever it is sung, Anglo disease is the British/American way of robbing a country blind wherever it is practised.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 12:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the European Elite was converted around 1990 (pensée unique, third way, etc). That's enough time and political generation turnover that where it came from becomes irrelevant. It's now perfectly able to perpetuate itself. And Europe compounds it with the idiocy of Euro goldbuggery.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 12:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but JaP came up with a description of it as the financial standard bearer of the neoliberal/PNAC  that became dominant in the 90s.

so our comments do not necessarily contradict each other; the name is that of the originator.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 12:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Euro crisis is endogenous. It is unfortunate that it was triggered by the outiside, "Anglo" subprime CDO crisis.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 12:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps we should be thankful that the Anglos went so far over the edge as to show us how dangerous derivatives (and the financial system which embraces them) truly are to the real world.

But to comment on the original question, the same disease is present now in Singapore and Hong Kong as well. But it didn't originate there.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 01:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome will probably recognize me.
I'm the guy who predicted $80 oil in mid-July 2008.
Curious?  What is the price of oil today?
by jamawani on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 09:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, 6 months ago it was $110 or so... Anyone who predicted any price between $45 and $145 4 years ago has been right at some point. Gotta love Brownian motion...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 09:17:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, but I prefer rafting the Yellowstone River on an early autumn day or hiking the Cloud Peak Wilderness after the first snow.
by jamawani on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 03:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Welcome to ET, jamawani. At the moment you are our newest user. So why should any of us "well know" any of your previous positions?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Oct 10th, 2011 at 05:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Diseases spread. That's the point.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 09:14:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And yet - -
How can some claim a pattern during one period and random movements during another?
Amazing, huh?

It do seem, however, that WTI has been in the $70 to $100 range for most of the past three years - after plowing down to $30 in Dec 2008 from a heady peak of $143. (Which averages out to $86.50 BTW.)

Since mid 2009, WTI has been in the $70 to $90 range except for a brief foray above this past spring.

http://ycharts.com/indicators/crude_oil_spot_price

Is oil a finite resource?  Absolutely.
Does immense speculation take place in energy markets? Always.
Do countries like Russia and the U.S. manipulate energy resource for political gain?  Hmmm - -

by jamawani on Tue Oct 11th, 2011 at 06:40:45 PM EST


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