Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.

Libyan War - Second Mothership

by Nomad Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:39:39 AM EST

Yesterday it became actually clear what the decision of a Libyan no-fly zone really meant: all-out war with the army forces of Muammar Gaddafi.

Comparisons with the 2003 Iraq invasion should be interesting. For instance, the decision making was relatively low-key, included Arabian leaders, and so far has European countries in the lead, with a cheese-eating surrender monkey (albeit on steroids) securing a key role. Not surprisingly, European interests for Libya are larger than those for the US.

The first aggregator of the news on Lybia is beginning to fill up, see:
Libya - by ATinNM

This thread can be used for further analysis and news reports.

bumped - Nomad


Display:
Channel 4 News - Libya's government has begun distributing arms to more than one million people, state news agency reports.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:09:46 AM EST
Smells like a disaster...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
smells like incredibly short term thinking, Although its notable that there's no statement on giving people ammunition

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:20:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mike Mullen says Libya's air defenses are pretty much done.  So the NFZ is effectively in place.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:25:24 AM EST
Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs
4:56pm

Overnight missile strikes, during which some 110 cruise missiles were launched, hit 20 of 22 targets, "with various levels of damage", the US military told Reuters.

Well that's rather uncertain for an assessment (reminds me of Iraq wars). Where did the bombs/cruise missiles destined for the two missed targets hit?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
depends which ones miss, if its the UK/French one its meant to check its target by camera, and if it doesn't recognise it fly off to a safe location.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
2:43pm Bombs overnight hit "near Bab al-Aziziyah", Gaddafi's Tripoli home and headquarters.

No further information has been given where exactly they hit. The compound is in the residential southern suburb of the capital city, which is home to more than 1million people.

Not clear if they were hitting the compound or something near it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:29:32 AM EST
Chris McGreal (chrismcgreal) on Twitter
  1. force of assault on tanks so great that turrets blown off. Lorries still burning nearby. Wreckage of air attacks strewn for miles along road 12 minutes ago via web
    • standing in front of wrecked #Libya government tanks near Benghazi hit by 4am air strike. #Gaddafi soldiers appear have died as they slept


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:34:19 AM EST
    Which is probably why they were making such a huge effort to push into the cities before the UN force was ready.  Better to take their chances with the rebels in urban areas than sit on the roads out in the desert where it was a fish-in-a-barrel exercise for the Rafales.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:37:40 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Get into the cities (see below) and say: "What are you going to do from the air now? No boots on the ground, no win".
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:11:01 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, they would have been much better off (if they wanted to live) by just walking home in small groups. Incredibly, these guys just don't seem to understand the capabilities that modern military forces are able to employ against ground-confined armoured units. It's not just the aircraft but the whole package that's so devastating.  I think it takes a lot of brainwashing to get a soldier to sit inside an armoured vehicle when your side doesn't have air superiority.

    I remember a conversation with a US Army tank jockey many  years ago while taking a Greyhound bus home from college. He was totally convinced that armour was the way to go. I was amazed that he could believe that his tank could survive without friendly air cover.  

    I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

    by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:47:17 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    One problem with learning the lesson the hard way is by the time you've learned it, you're dead.


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:21:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Gaddafi denounces foreign intervention - Africa - Al Jazeera English
    Destroyed military vehicles and at least a 14 dead fighters littered the road between Benghazi and Ajdabiya, witnesses said on Sunday. In the western city of Misrata, which regime forces have sieged for days, residents said snipers were positioned on rooftops in the centre of town, making people too afraid to walk in the streets.


    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:14:23 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs

    The Taliban has issued a statement condemning the strikes in Libya, saying they represent a "politically-motivated and uncalled-for intervention and adventure" of Western nations in the internal affairs of the country.

    The "anti-Islamic" and "colonialist" forces don't want a solution to the bloodshed, the statement said, but rather plan to weaken Libya and take its oil through "direct invasions."

    The Taliban called on Muslims and rulers in the Islamic world not to remain neutral and to help Libya to "wriggle free" and "save itself from the tentacles of the foreign colonialism." 



    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:39:59 AM EST
    But didn't Gaddafi say Al Qaeda was behind the rebels?

    So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:03:18 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Here (in German)/end of clip:

    http://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/videos/politik/Gaddafi-droht-mit-Heiligem-Krieg-article2798891.html

    he announces that he may make peace with AlKaida to prepare his Holy War - said on Turkish TV on 09/03.

    by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:01:54 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    According to Wikileaks the U.S thought so as well three years ago.
    A U.S.-Libyan dual national who regularly visits family members in eastern Libya recently described for us social, political and economic factors that have contributed to and facilitated participation by a disproportionately large number of eastern Libya"s native sons in "martyrdom acts" and other insurgency operations in Libya and Iraq. A reportedly deliberate GOL policy to keep the east poor as a means by which to limit the potential political threat to Qadhafi"s regime has helped fuel the perception among many young eastern Libyan men that they have nothing to lose by participating in extremist violence at home and in Iraq.

    [...]

    Unlike the rest of the country, sermons in eastern Libyan mosques are laced with phraseology urging worshippers to support jihad in Iraq and elsewhere through direct participation or financial contributions. While senior regime figures, including Saif al-Islam al-Qadhafi, appear to have recognized that the east merits more attention and investment, the reported ability of radical imams to propagate messages urging support for and participation in jihad despite GOL security organizations" efforts suggests that claims by senior GOL officials that the east is under control may be overstated.

    by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:42:34 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    So the US is as mad as Gaddafi?

    So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:54:36 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The fact that the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli reported it doesn't mean it's true. But things might be more complicated than we're being led to believe.
    by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:01:07 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yes of course they were.  But the taliban have got an equally good story.
    by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 09:42:34 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    LIVE BLOG: Libya - Operation Odyssey Dawn - Channel 4 News

    Reports forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi have entered the centre of the rebel-held city of Misrata with tanks. Residents say that several people have been killed by gunfire.  

    "Two people were killed so far today by snipers. They are still on the rooftops. They are backed with four tanks, which have been patrolling the town. It's getting very difficult for people to come out," one resident told Reuters.

    13.20 Resident of Misrata in Libya claims pro-Gaddafi forces are using boats to blockade the city's port and to prevent supplies from entering.



    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:42:09 AM EST
    Libya intervention comes too late for some - Africa - Al Jazeera English

    Opposition forces in Benghazi say 30 people were killed and many more wounded when troops loyal to longtime leader Muammar Gaddafi attacked the western outskirts of the rebel stronghold in the hours after the UN Security Council approved military action against him.

    Residents of the city expressed anger with the international community, saying it had acted too slowly to prevent one final assault from Gaddafi.

    But opposition fighters more than held their own, driving back the loyalist troops - some of whom may have remained in Benghazi all along as "sleeper cells" - and capturing at least two tanks.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:15:56 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    Timestamp:  12:21pm

    According to the AFP news agency, one hospital in Benghazi says at least 94 people died in Gaddafi's last push on the city late Friday night and Saturday morning, in the hours after the UN security council approved military action against him but before coalition planes were in the air.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:26:09 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    On the Al Jazeera blog, there is a rebel YouTube video up, showing dead 'loyalists' in jeeps, one of which appears to be a mercenary as a rebel removes dollars from his pocket. The video taker cries "Allah Akbar!" without pause.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:30:25 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    LIVE BLOG: Libya - Operation Odyssey Dawn - Channel 4 News
    Russia calls on Britain, France and the US to stop air strikes against what it said were non-military targets in Libya, saying the attacks had caused civillian casualities.


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:42:43 AM EST
    AFP: Arab League Secretary-General Amr Mussa criticises air strikes on Libya saying they differ from original goal

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:14:37 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    4:00pm

    Civilians have been hit in the bombardment of sites in Libya, says Russia ...

    He said that 48 civilians had been killed in the overnight shelling, with strikes hitting a medical facility, roads and bridges.

    Libyan state TV had also given the same casualty count earlier in the day.

    On bombing targets other than air defense:

    2:34pm

    The initial stages of the operation to enforce the no-fly zone "has been successful", says Admiral Michael Mullen, US military chief.

    Kenneth Fiddler, a spokesman for the Germany-based US Africa Command, said 19 US warplanes, including three B2 bombers dropped 40 bombs "on a major Libyan airfield" at dawn today. he didn't specify which airfield, or how many of the "military targets" were destroyed.

    2:43pm

    Bombs overnight hit "near Bab al-Aziziyah", Gaddafi's Tripoli home and headquarters.

    No further information has been given where exactly they hit. The compound is in the residential southern suburb of the capital city, which is home to more than 1million people.

    No. Decapitation. Attempts. Please.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:23:01 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Analysis from The Arabist (read all):

    5 questions few are asking about Libya - Blog - The Arabist

    1. UNSC Resolution 1973 isn't really about getting a ceasefire, is it?

    Not really. Even if Qadhafi were to produce a real ceasefire, which is unlikely, the rebels would not observe it: they would keep trying to topple the regime. This resolution, under the guise of obtaining a ceasefire, seeks to carry out regime change...

    2. But what if Qadhafi hangs in there, and there's a stalemate?

    Well, prolonged civil war happens. But it's not clear whether this is a likely outcome, particularly if there are such stringent sanctions and travel restrictions on regime officials. There could a "liberated zone" and a Qadhafi-controlled zone for a while, with ongoing skirmishes...

    3. What happens if Qadhafi is toppled but the remnants of the regime, perhaps backed by some measure of tribal or other popular support, remains in place? 

    ... It gets more complicated in the Qadhafis are gone, both Westerners and Arabs may be ready to deal with regime remnants (particularly if they play a role in getting rid of the Qadhafis) but the insurgents may not want anyone associated with the former regime in place. So prolonged civil war is one possible outcome, yet again. This is why some kind of recognized leadership for the insurgency that is able to negotiate with whoever comes after Qadhafi is necessary.

    4. What if the insurgents don't want to negotiate?

    Once empowered, the insurgents will naturally want to go all the way and topple Qadhafi. I totally support them in that endeavor. But we don't know much about them, or how they might behave towards non-combatants that back the Qadhafi regime...

    5. What is the most desirable outcome?

    Obviously, to see Qadhafi toppled. But that's only step one. We don't know what the insurgents want aside from a Qadhafi-free Libya. We don't know what Western powers (if they are united on this) want to see.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:42:17 AM EST
    I don't get the sense that the western allies have a clear agenda here.  And I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.  The basic game seems to be, "Take out Gaddafi's ability to fight from the air and shoot at our planes, and knock out his ground forces on the outskirts of rebel cities."  I think they were surprised at how quickly Gaddafi was able to move on rebel towns and cities once the resolution was passed.  They seem to have expected the rebels to hold up better.

    Some may want ground troops.  The consensus in the US seems to be overwhelmingly against doing much beyond a few missiles and the NFZ.  Obama seems to have barely had an appetite for even that.  Clinton seems to have been the big supporter of military action within the administration, because she feared it would be Rwanda all over again -- a pretty common theme for both Bill and Hillary, who openly admit to being scarred by it.  Obama seems to have been dragged kicking and screaming into this, probably because Gates was opposed to getting involved (which worries many of us, because Gates has earned a lot of respect from people, especially on the left).

    Cameron seems to simply be following Sarkozy and Obama.  He looked like a deer in the headlights, but some of that may simply reflect never having had to make these kinds of decisions yet, whereas Obama and Sarkozy have been around for years.

    Sarkozy is probably going to continue as the public face of this.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 11:01:53 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    ...adding: And others who are more knowledgeable than I am can speak to Sarko.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 11:03:56 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Sarko is in it as an anaesthetic for his imperial phantom limb pain.

    - Jake

    Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

    by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:52:15 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    His only possibility, I think, is to appeal to the followers of Chauvin. It will be interesting to see how it plays with the North African immigrants.

    paul spencer
    by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:07:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Sarkozy is in deep doo-doo politically: his poll results are at historical lows, and it looks like even Strauss-Khan's dog could beat him at next year's presidential elections.

    So what's best to look "presidential"? Why, start a war of course, that's the W's method.

    Not to mention that Ghaddafi has humiliated Sarko during his visit to Paris in 2007. As Juan Cole was writing about the Lebanese Shiite: "Payback is a bitch."

    by Bernard on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:54:11 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I prefer to shout at him.

    I'd rather Alain Juppé were to assume the role as front man, rather as Dominique de Villepin did during the last war. But they're not asking me.

    It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

    by eurogreen on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 07:10:35 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Cameron . . . looked like a deer in the headlights

    I thought that was his default expression. Granted that no one on my side of The Pond should make any comments about ineptitude of national leadership, especially after the last 10 years, he still strikes me as someone who is a walking example of The Peter Principle.

    by Mnemosyne on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:55:35 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    A group of eight Italian aircraft are today ready to join operations against Libya says defence minister Ignazio La Russa.

    "We want to participate as equals in the operation."

    He also said Italy was "ready to take action" over an Italian tugboat, whose 11 crewmembers have been detained in Libya.



    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 11:06:54 AM EST
    That should go over well.

    The Italian air force bombing Libya? What could go wrong?

    by Mnemosyne on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:56:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    That contributed my one laugh in an otherwise every serious day...
    by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 09:45:06 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I note the North American and European allies are on the same side as Hezbollah and Iran here.

    The Middle East is such a fun place.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 11:34:51 AM EST
    "The enemy of my enemy is my friend!" -- for the moment.

    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 11:43:22 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    And now the Arab League is pissing and moaning because the NFZ wasn't what they envisaged.

    What were we supposed to do -- leave Gaddafi the ability to shoot down the planes?  Leave the tanks outside Benghazi alone?

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 11:46:07 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    This is about radical change in the Arab world.  A movement from unpopular authoritarian regimes run by kleptocrats and the institution of governing bodies responsible to the people.

    The Arab Revolution is spreading to Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, and Saudi Arabia.  The government representatives at the Arab League are probably scared their people are going to start protesting to throw them out.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 11:53:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yes.  And from what I've read in the news in recent weeks, all is not well between the US and the House of Saud.

    Interesting times and all that.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 11:57:29 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    4:30pm

    Amr Moussa, the head of the Arab League says that Arabs did not want military strikes by Western powers that hit civilians when the League called for a no-fly zone over Libya, saying:

    What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:25:36 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Amr Moussa is Egyptian. The headquarters of the Arab League is in Egypt and Moussa is the Secretary Gerneral. He is contemplating running for President of Egypt. He is covering his bases. Ask for a No Fly Zone, then complain about how it is implemented.  He is also likely getting lots of flack from Saudi Arabia and other Arab Monarchies who don't like Gadaffi but don't like the precedent of inviting non-Arab powers to take military action against an Arab regime that is crushing opposition with military force. A little too close to home.

    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:55:46 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Apparently yes.
    by Andhakari on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:15:46 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    "I note the North American and European allies are on the same side as Hezbollah and Iran here"
    What??? Can you offer some information? I think  it is just the opposite.
        Bahrain: U.S. Backs Saudi Military Intervention, Conflict With Iran - http://www.globalresearch.ca
        Obama's Bay of Pigs in Libya: Imperialist Aggression Shreds UN Charter - tarpley.net
    by xurxo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:24:40 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Lebanon supported the move by the Arab League in part because a senior Shia scholar who had gone to Libya to attempt to dissuade Gadaffi from one of his follies was, presumedly, killed by Gadaffi. Hezbollah, a Shia group financed by Iran, took and takes grave exception. And I suspect Iran has other reasons to hate Gadaffi. He has alienated just about everyone, excepting some comparable moral monsters, such as Mobuto, and, until recently, Berlescuoni.

    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 12:32:15 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I figure it is in relation to Gaddafi.

    Hezbollah calls for 'defeat of tyrant Gaddafi' - Israel News, Ynetnews

    The Lebanese Shiite group Hezbollah on Monday denounced the "massacres" committed by the regime of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya, saying they "prayed for the revolutionaries to defeat the tyrant.

    PressTV - Iran: Gaddafi must meet public demand

    President Ahmadinejad addressed leaders of countries who replied the popular revolutions "with a bullet" and said, "I highly recommend leaders of these countries to let their people express their words and that they should follow public views," IRNA reported Wednesday.

    He expressed the world's outrage at "bad behavior of the Libyan government towards the people" and added, "All should yield to demands of their own nation. Otherwise, the outcome is already clear."

    The Iranian chief executive warned that resistance against demands of a nation would result in no achievement, stressing world leaders to "hear the voice of their people."


    A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
    by A swedish kind of death on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 02:40:53 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    News from Israel? Sure, objectivity ensures. I can not think of any reason why they  would want to divide (and conquer). As for Ahmadinejad, you do not think given recent events he is saving face?
    by xurxo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:10:53 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Just took the first appropriate Google-hit I came upon. Is it contested that Hezbollah supports the rebels against Gaddafi?

    And Ahmadinejad might very well be saving face, just as Sarkozy is out to get re-elected. Do not really see why the motivation matters here.

    A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

    by A swedish kind of death on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:17:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I should clarify that that would be supports in the political and moral sense, not in the material sense.

    A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
    by A swedish kind of death on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:21:28 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    As askod said; and it was pointed out by someone in an older thread that Hezbollah hates Ghaddafi's guts for 'disappearing' Musa al-Sadr, Lebanon's onetime top Shi'a cleric.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:32:38 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The attacks of last night against the Gadaffi forces in and around Benghazi have cleared the way for the revolutionaries to advance to the besieged city of Ajdabia, bypassed by regime forces late last week.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 12:08:28 PM EST
    Good.  The quicker they move and get this over with (if they can), the better.

    Qatar jets are preparing to go.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 12:10:10 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I've seen reports the TNC army has armor, artillery, and other heavy weapons but they couldn't risk them in open movement and battle as long as the regime controlled the sky.  Pictures of the results from last night's coalition air attacks on regime forces in and around Benghazi clearly show why.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 12:27:31 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I'd imagine their armor is increasing exponentially now that we're feeding them weapons with Egypt.  And I think France is moving heavy weapons in through Tunisia, aren't they?

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 12:37:13 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The only reports I've seen state Egypt shipped small arms and "humanitarian aid" to the TNC as soon as the UN resolution passed.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 12:53:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Ive seen a report that Egypt shipped a load of Artillery through to Benghazi as soon as the vote went through, no reliability on that, but apparently it was that which slowed the Ghadaffi attack down enough to keep them outside the city according to the report.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:16:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Thanks.

    IIRC, the Egyptian army had old Warsaw Pact stuff lying around from their Soviet-Client days.  Since the Libyans are trained and armed with the same stuff it does make sense:

    • The Egyptians could get rid of it

    • The TNC forces can use it


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:24:02 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    And if the rebels fail, why obviously it's Libyan equipment that they happened to loot from some unsecured army depot. What's not to like?

    - Jake

    Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

    by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:20:08 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Pictures of the results from last night's coalition air attacks on regime forces in and around Benghazi

    Link?

    Just started reading the updates at Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs, where there is a photo of a monstrous explosion on the road between Benghazi and Ajdabiya.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:19:00 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    5:49pm

    Among the headlines, you may think '"Odyssey Dawn" is the only military operation in action - but we understand each of the contributing nations has their own codename for enforcing UN Security Council resolution 1973:

    Operation Odyssey Dawn - The US military operation.
    Operation Ellamy - The UK military effort
    Operation Mobile - The Canadian component.
    Operation Harmattan- The French military operation.

    If we find out why they're named those names, we'll let you know...

    Harmattan is a desert wind.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:20:24 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Military operations are often named using a random word generator.  

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:28:56 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Harmattan is a West to South  Saharian wind... It is said that it brings meningitis and high blood pressure !!! (Mostly because of the tiny particles of dust it carries)
    So I guess it wasn't chosen at random !

    "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
    by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 08:57:00 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Hello there margouillat! Good to see you!
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 02:15:00 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Merci... :-) All those fours from nice people, I'm flabbergasted !!!

    "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
    by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:31:47 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    As you see, you've been missed!
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 06:55:48 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Ellarmy might be a sort of reference to the Battle of El Alamein, during the Second World War.  The British Eighth Army and the German Afrika Korps chased each other through Libya for a while during that war.
    by Gary J on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 12:38:26 PM EST
    [ Parent ]


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:26:26 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I am purely evil;
    Hear the thrum
    of my evil engine;
    Evilly I come.
    The stars are thick as flowers
    In the meadows of July;
    A fine night for murder
    Winging through the sky.

    -- Ethel Mannin, 'Song of the Bomber.'

    by asdf on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 12:21:36 PM EST
    US commander warns of Libya stalemate - Americas - Al Jazeera English

    Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, has said the military operation in Libya called for by the UN Security Council is not aimed at regime change - adding that a "stalemate" could well exist, leaving Muammar Gaddafi in power.

    The 64-year-old admiral also said that no-fly zone had "effectively been established", as Gaddafi's planes had not taken to the skies following Saturday's overnight shelling of dozens of targets in northern Libya.

    "In the first 24 hours, operations have established the no-fly zone. French air planes are over Benghazi as we speak and will do that on a 24/7 basis. The operations have taken out some ground forces near Benghazi, taken out air defences, some of his control nodes, some of his airfields, I don't have all damage assessments, but so far [it's been] very very effective," he said.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:29:59 PM EST
    At a quick first glance at recent comments I have been staring at the word "mothership" thinking of "friendship" and "father- and motherhood" wondering what mothership might be... :))
    by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 01:58:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Think funkadelic.

    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:03:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I don't know what that is either...

    I had been busy with mothership chores which is why - I guess.

    by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:10:30 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Parliament-Funkadelic: Whatever happened to The Mothership?  dangerousminds.net

    Wonderful tale about tracking down what really happened to one of the wildest, most iconic set pieces of 1970s rock shows, the Parliament-Funkadelic Mothership. Forget about Kiss, the Mothership was ten times cooler. George Clinton is a god. From the Washington Post:

        Before the Mothership was built, it was a concept. Parliament released "Mothership Connection" in 1975, an album with a title track about hitchhiking to cosmic transcendence: "Swing down, sweet chariot. Stop and let me ride." Clinton started dreaming up a tour to match. After watching the Who's 1969 rock opera "Tommy," he asked himself: "How do you do a funk opera? What about [black people] in space?"

        He called upon David Bowie's tour producer, Jules Fisher, to help bring the Mothership to life. "This was theater. This was drama," says Fisher, a renowned Broadway lighting designer. "Current shows like U2 and the Stones--they don't provide this narrative arc."

        The Mothership was assembled in Manhattan and made its first descent in New Orleans from the rafters of Municipal Auditorium on Oct. 27, 1976.

        Minds were blown.


    The Gospel according to George Clinton! But, alas, I was too deep in the design of my console, too far out on two hits of hash a night, to take note at the time, so no altar call for me.

    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:34:06 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Gospel meets Star Treck and the Mother Ship is manned by black folks who want to go away on the ship! Funky and psychedelic all at once. What was white America to do with George Clinton in 1975?  Far, far too subversive.



    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:36:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    "It's the blimp. It's the blimp. It's the Mothership!"
    Captain Beefheart if I recall correctly, but that was a few lifetimes ago.
    by Andhakari on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:24:18 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    A mothership is a vehicle, not motherhood.

    So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:59:51 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    "A mothership is a vehicle, not motherhood."

    Thanks! ;-)

    Even if the hardship of motherhood occasionally turns into real mothership.

    by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:51:46 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It seems that the Gadaffi Regime figured out that armor without infantry cover is vulnerable in cities held by rebels. They countered with snipers on the roof-tops to suppress rebels and civilians who otherwise would attack the tanks. Now the rebels need to learn how to go roof top to roof top cleaning out snipers.  

    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:02:24 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yesterday a report from Misurata claimed they were able to clear the cities from snipers by surrounding them and waiting until they ran out of ammunition.

    Neither side in the ground forces seem to understand what "fire discipline" even means, much less do it.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:14:22 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I think Admiral Mullen is under-rating the TNC militia unit's over-rating the regime's units combat effectiveness.  

    The regime hasn't demonstrated any tactical adeptness or competence, e.g., their leap-frog move to Benghazi has turned into a military disaster.  They've bludgeoned their way forward with air and artillery superiority.  Take that away and I find it hard to credit they are THAT much better than the odds-and-sods fighting in the TNC ranks.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:11:48 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Gaga-affi is all bluff. He thought he could call a ceasefire and get the opposition to do nothing until he got his forces in place.  Oops.
    Now they'll be looking to hitch a ride home or change their flag.  
    by Andhakari on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:31:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Ad-hoc units made up by rebels tend to be decent defenders of their home towns but lousy attackers, at least until someone trains them to act like a group.

    Take away Qaddaffi's sides offensive capabilities and you have a stalemate unless a rebellion takes out either side from within.

    A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

    by A swedish kind of death on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 07:13:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Twitter reports Gadaffi forces outside of Misurata are being attacked.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:33:02 PM EST
    Phone call from Misurata:



    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:40:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    A good source reporting:

    Almanara Media URGENT: The city of Zintan has been heavily bombarded by Gaddafi forces today using Grad missiles. Strikes were random and came from the east. Zintan has not had much coverage recently but the city has been under constant strikes for the past 3 days

    Yet more pointless violence from the regime.  

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:36:05 PM EST
    I don't know anything much about Grad rockets, but they would seem to be useful against relatively concentrated military positions. Firing them at a city would constitute mass civilian homicide.
    I don't expect much from Russia, but their criticism of unverified civilian causalities as a by-product of the NFZ seems out of place in the face of this sort of random violence by Gagafifi.  
    by Andhakari on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:36:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    CNN: Arab League reaffirms support for Operation Odyssey Dawn.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:51:19 PM EST
    My small contribution to Diary Drift:

    Reports of widespread protests in Syria.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:59:05 PM EST
    AJ - Yemen president has fired his government after weeks of protests.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:01:24 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya attack - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Muammar Gaddafi's armed forces have announced that they will begin a ceasefire at at 7pm (GMT).

    It's the second announcement of a ceasefire by the regime's forces, but one thing that might also be significant about the statement, which was announced at a press conference in Tripoli, is the fact that there doesn't appear to be any mention of Gaddafi.

    Could it also be an attempt to suggest that the initiative is in the hands of a wider circle than just Gaddafi himself.



    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 02:59:30 PM EST
    This is crap.

    They had a chance during the day to stop fighting and they attacked Musurata and Zintan.  Now that their forces are getting the shit kicked out of them they start making noises.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:03:55 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, you still have to give his armed forces the opportunity to go into a ceasefire, but they have to actually demonstrate it by pulling back.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:29:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    AJ - The cease fire has not been announced on Libyan State Television and the military spokesman, when asked if it was, replied, "no."

    h'mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:07:28 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Possibly some conflict and splitting going on within the regime.  Possibly nothing  who knows with these guys?

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:10:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Anyone who believes anything the Gadaffi regime says has rocks in their head.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:20:33 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    AJELive #AlJazeera's @anitamcnaught, in #Tripoli: "City is quiet. Anti-aircraft fire was probably due to nerves"

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:15:55 PM EST
    77% vote in favor of the constitutional reform

    Wind power
    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:20:34 PM EST
    Saw a few stories on the initiatives.  Mostly about limiting the power of the presidency and putting more in the hands of parliament.

    But, you know, the Arabs can't do democracy.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:28:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Sultan Al Qassemi (SultanAlQassemi) on Twitter
    Qaradawi now speaking on Al Jazeera on Egypt elections. Qaradawi is Qatar's secret weapon.

    Qaradawi: I congratulate the Egyptians & Tunisians for their freedom, soon we will congratulate the Libyans, Yemenis & Syrians.

    Qaradawi: If Gaddafi was indeed a leader, he wouldn't kill his own people. A shepherd protects his flock

    Al Jazeera anchor asked Qaradawi, "Gaddafi calls this a Crusade..?" Qaradawi answers "Is he the protector of Islam?"



    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:26:46 PM EST
    Reports TNC troops have captured 7 T-72 tanks from Gadaffi's forces in or around Benghazi.

    That's a platoon's worth of tanks or half a company.

    With the losses in the battle yesterday while taking Benghazi and from the attacks last night it's very possible the regime force has simply run out of tanks in the eastern half of Libya.

    I can only guess but if the tanks are gone the GRAD mobile rocket platforms and any self-propelled artillery have been captured/destroyed as well.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:41:05 PM EST
    Seven tanks is a pretty ugly hit.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:44:11 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yeah it is.

    I'll guess it is the total number taken over the last 34 or so hours.  The Benghazi defenders managed to take 2 yesterday during the battle so they found 5 today.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 03:52:08 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Plus at least four destroyed by France yesterday and any others today.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:04:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Another 4 said to be destroyed in the attack on Misurata today.

    Adding it all up, over the last couple of weeks the regime has lost somewhere between 30 to 40 tanks and about the same number of BMP Infantry Fighting Vehicles.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:25:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    problem is finding a journalist who can tell the difference between the two

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:28:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    If its tracked and got a rotating thingie with a gun sticking out on top ... it's a tank!

    Right?

    :-)


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:39:18 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Who needs a rotating thingy with a gun, seen M113's described as tanks and theyre just a tracked armoured shoebox.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:47:49 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    'Twas ever thus.

    Reading a silly book on WW 2 and  discovered a picture of a Bren Carrier captioned as "British Tank advances from Caen."

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:59:16 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Looking at pictures 6, 8 and 10 here, where they say Tanks they mean SP Artillery (although other pictures include tanks. Going agressively after that stuff is a far better way of defending civilians than going after tanks.

    Detritus of War - Photographs - NYTimes.com

    A bomb from an allied aircraft exploded among vehicles belonging to forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi during an airstrike Sunday on the highway outside of Benghazi.


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 07:16:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I agree.

    Looks like the French caught a Palmaria SP 155mm howitzer battery on the move and blowed-it-up real good.  

    Libya Army has about 160 of these things and they are the "heavy" artillery of the Libyan military.  There's all kinds of munitions available for a 155mm tube including a laser guided anti-tank missile, though the Libyans shouldn't have any.  They will have HE, shrapnel, and white phosphorous and that's bad enough.  

    A very high value target.  Good on you, whoever spotted these.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 07:55:49 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    AJA is said to have reported a "loud explosion and heavy anti-aircraft gunfire is being heard in Tripoli."

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:23:39 PM EST
    Reports that its from one of the main Barracks next to Gadhafis headquarters

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:32:32 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs

    Turkey is the latest state to say it will "contribute to international action" in Libya. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he hoped military operations would be over "as quickly as possible". The country's foreign ministry said:

    Turkey will make the national contribution it deems necessary and appropriate to the applications of UN resolutions 1970 and 1973, taking into account the security of the Libyan people.

    To this end, preparations and works are under way in cooperation with our civilian and military structures.



    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:27:59 PM EST
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    US military: We are not coordinating our strikes with opposition fighters


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:33:24 PM EST
    When parsing military statements have to be careful to note exactly what is said.

    He said, "we."  Which could mean US forces only.

     

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:41:32 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well I took the We to be the Airforce, the fact that some special forces mob might be providing FAC support in the company of  the rebels is of course entirely coincidental.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:45:38 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Now rumors are floating Al-mu'tasim-Billah Gadaffi, Lt. Colonel and "overseer" of the Libyan National Security Council has been severely burned and Khamis, commander of the Khamis Brigade, has been killed.

    Take with salt.


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:43:30 PM EST
    Was hearing that the Khamis brigade, and another one that I didnt quite catch have been attacked from the air outside Misratah

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:46:35 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    For what it is worth:

    ShahabLibya, a creditable source:

    BREAKING: It has been confirmed by a few sources and now also Al Manara, Khamis Gaddafi has died today, as a result of burns


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 08:44:37 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Paul Waugh (paulwaugh) on Twitter
    No.10 just rejected Gaddafi ceasefire."Our assessment is he is in breach of these obligations so we will continue to enforce the Resolution"


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:51:05 PM EST
    Revolution spokesman tells AlJaz that death toll among their fighters at 8,000. - Reuters

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:58:53 PM EST
    yee-yow

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:01:07 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
     Reuters: sporadic explosions, heavy gunfire for past 20 minutes in #Benghazi.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:59:24 PM EST
    ShababLibya, a usually reliable source, twitters:

    The shooting heard in Benghazi we understand maybe from sleeper cells as the opposition hunt them down and arrest


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:14:28 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    ShababLibya:

    The road between Benghazi and Ajdabia is free of Gaddafi forces, many have been caught also many tried to flee r being chased

    This is the kind of thing that happened during WW2.  One side would break-through and race hundreds of kilometers with little opposition.  If the TNC can keep their forces together, disciplined, and supplied I don't see any reason they couldn't be outside of Sirt by the end of this coming week.

    Then, things get harder.


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:21:59 PM EST
    BBC - Rebel Voice of Free Libya radio says the insurgents have driven Col Gaddafi's forces from the south-western suburbs of Benghazi and surrounded them at the port of Al-Zwitinah, 80 miles (130km) south of the city

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:40:14 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Surrounded?  No kidding.

    The regime's forces have to be in bad shape.  They pushed 160 kilometers, or so, in one night.  Attacked Benghazi the next day and were repulsed.  Last night got bombed in their positions outside of Benghazi.  Today they retreated 160 kilometers, back to their starting point.

    Nothing short of complete military defeat.

    From the last reports from Al-Zwitinah there was some kind of occupying/blocking force left in or around the city.  How many, how well they are supplied, what their Order of Battle and Table of Equipment is ... who knows?  

    Hopefully the revolutionaries have gotten enough discipline to wait, rest, and organize themselves and not fling themselves into immediate battle.


    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

    by ATinNM on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:55:46 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    If the TNC can keep their forces together, disciplined

    Big if, from everything I have seen.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:50:02 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    BBC - Pressed about his assertion that Col Gaddafi was "not on a targeting list", Vice Adm Gortney said: "If he happens to be in a place, if he's inspecting a surface-to-air missile site, we don't have any idea that he's there or not, then yeah, but no, we're not targeting his residence this time."

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:42:33 PM EST
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    11:55pm

    Robert Gates says that attempting to assassinate Gaddafi would not be a good idea, saying:

    I think it's important that we operate within the mandate of the UN Security Council resolution.

    Some learning curve?

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:52:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    al Jazeera - Egypt stays away from military action in #Libya, due to number of Egyptians living there.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:54:41 PM EST
    Libya Live Blog - March 20 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    11:47pm

    Egypt has decided to steer clear of joining the military action against Libya, fearing reprisals against hundreds of thousands of its citizens living and working there.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:52:49 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    SKY News - AFP: Air strike destroys building of Gaddafi's residence

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:52:56 PM EST
    Attack on Gadhafi's compound was not a US strike, official tells NBC News

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 07:50:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    AP Airstrike hits Libyan administration building a few yards from Gadhafi's tent in his personal compound

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 07:53:13 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Ha.  Sounds like AT was right about reading things literally then.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 07:54:34 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    They say it was a command &control centre.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 02:41:50 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    John McDonnell (johnmcdonnellMP) on Twitter
    The cruise and tomahawk missiles are providing the smokescreen behind which the butchers in Yemen,Syria and Bahrain are murdering protestors


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:08:05 PM EST
    Libya Live Blog - March 21

    4:21am As the uprisings continue across the region, signs of solidarity continue as well. Making the rounds on Twitter is this short video with the following message:

    "Inspired by the uprisings occurring in the Middle East and North Africa, this film is an ode to movements striving to reclaim their dignity and sovereignty from their keepers":

    4:14am  The AFP newsagency, quoting the coalition, says Gaddafi's military control centre was the target of strikes on Sunday and was destroyed.

    Libyan officals took journalists to see what they claimed was the damage from a missile attack. Officials said the missiles had struck very near to Gaddafi's tent.

    Anita McNaught, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Tripoli, said journalists taken to the scene asked officials why there was no smoke or fire. One official said he didn't know because he wasn't a military expert.



    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 12:39:04 AM EST
    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    10:34am

    UK defence secretary Liam Fox has told BBC Radio 5 that targeting Gaddafi himself - something the United States has thus far denied doing - could "potentially be a possibility" if civilians would not be harmed. 

    Robert Gates, the US defence secretary, responded negatively to Fox's comments. He said expanding the coalition's goals could divide it and that it was "unwise" to set such specific goals that might be unachievable.  



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:12:06 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I always find this strange. Apparently it's fine to blow up property in the millions and minions in their thousands, but killing a single person - which would effectively end the conflict - is somehow against the rules? Because it's unwarranted interference?
    by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:25:20 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    why I have my doubts about Gates' statements. The "decapitation" of Hussein was a clear aim of the US army during the Iraq war - hard to believe it would be so different now.
    by Nomad on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 08:35:16 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    but killing a single person - which would effectively end the conflict

    Do you seriously think so? Did taking out Saddam end the Iraq conflict?

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 08:51:12 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    That's a false comparison. Saddam had an entire state+tribal+party apparatus backing him.

    Gaddafi is just a mad guy in a silly costume who happens to own an army. The only serious contender as a successor is his son.

    There's no significant pro-Gaddafi party in Libya. He can't even count on the inherent loyalty of the army, never mind the rest of the "government."

    by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 08:58:31 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Gaddafi is just a mad guy in a silly costume who happens to own an army.

    am always suspicious about this presentation

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 09:14:35 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Saddam had an entire state+tribal+party apparatus backing him.

    Half of which defected or ran away. The same is true of Ghaddafi, who may have had half his army turning sides, but the other half (with some merc help but it wasn't mercs who manned airplanes and heavy armour) easily rolled up the rebels until the bombers came around and had no problems killing civilians even afterwards. And he also has an awful son. And we'll see how the tribal angle plays out once the Benghazi rebels reach Sirte.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 10:58:12 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I think TBG makes a good point about there being a certain critical mass loyal to Saddam.  The tribal angle seems less worrisome here given the widespread protests before Gaddafi began his clampdown.  That he also needs mercenaries doesn't bode well, as the US can probably attest better than most after Iraq.

    These revolutions seem to transcend religious and tribal loyalties.  My hope is that the others wind up more like Egypt than Libya, as far as the incumbents go.  Unlike Gaddafi, Mubarak never seemed willing to go all-out and try to crush the population (not that the army would've gone along with that anyway).  That may just be my impression due to having not gotten the full story.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

    by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 06:59:16 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It appears both in Bahrain and Yemen the government killed civilians indiscriminately in an attempt to stop the protests. However, reportedly the Yemeni military brass is beginning to defect to the protesters.

    One interesting thing about this is that consistently it appear the police is much more willing to attack civilians, even with deadly force, than the military. May just be a matter of the police having internalised its role of keeper of internal security while the army focuses on external security. The police are trained to think about citizens as potential criminals while the army only thinks about external threats and isn't trained to consider their countrymen as potential enemies.

    So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:10:17 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    could be that the armys culture is more  that they protect the nations civilians. Historically, state representatives prepared to torture seem to come more from the policing side too.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:21:53 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Drew J Jones:
    Unlike Gaddafi, Mubarak never seemed willing to go all-out and try to crush the population (not that the army would've gone along with that anyway).  That may just be my impression due to having not gotten the full story.

    Fisk claims that Mubarak ordered it, but the troops on the gorund refused:

    Robert Fisk: As Mubarak clings on... What now for Egypt? - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent

    But the critical moment came on the evening of 30 January when, it is now clear, Mubarak ordered the Egyptian Third Army to crush the demonstrators in Tahrir Square with their tanks after flying F-16 fighter bombers at low level over the protesters.

    Many of the senior tank commanders could be seen tearing off their headsets - over which they had received the fatal orders - to use their mobile phones. They were, it now transpires, calling their own military families for advice. Fathers who had spent their lives serving the Egyptian army told their sons to disobey, that they must never kill their own people.



    A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
    by A swedish kind of death on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:45:15 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    there being a certain critical mass loyal to Saddam

    First, what would that be? The Tikriti clan, or even the entire Sunni population, compares to the population of Sirte and surrounding areas resp. Sirte and Tripoli. Second, why do you make a point based on addam loyalists? The civil war in Iraq wasn't at all propagated by Saddam loyalists only.

    The tribal angle seems less worrisome here given the widespread protests before Gaddafi began his clampdown.

    Again, the tribal angle can be judged once the fronts move into Ghaddafi-aligned tribal areas. Well, in fact, we don't even know what locals living between Benghazi and Sirte thought of the rebels from Benghazi.

    That he also needs mercenaries doesn't bode well

    Mercs are more useful than loyalists in terrorising locals. In a way, the Iraq terrorists using foreign suicide bombers knew that, too.

    These revolutions seem to transcend religious and tribal loyalties.

    Well, there were deadly Copt-Muslim clashes in Egypt, and, even if from the side of the repressors rather than the protesters, the Shi'a-Sunni angle of the Gulf States protests is rather obvious. Which doesn't mean that the equality and unity slogans cannot turn into lasting social reality, but it does mean that such a positive development is not a given.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:10:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    DoDo:

    That he also needs mercenaries doesn't bode well

    Mercs are more useful than loyalists in terrorising locals. In a way, the Iraq terrorists using foreign suicide bombers knew that, too.

    I am reminded of the role of the Regulares in the Spanish civil war.

    Regulares - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Fuerzas Regulares Indígenas ("Indigenous Regular Forces"), known simply as the Regulares (Regulars), were the volunteer infantry and cavalry units of the Spanish Army recruited in Spanish Morocco. They consisted of Moroccans officered by Spaniards.

    ...

     The professionalism and brutality[1] of the Army of Africa played a major part in early Nationalist successes.



    A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
    by A swedish kind of death on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:18:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The fewer bombs dropped, and the more clearly military the targets, the less the risk of hitting a couple of weddings and a marketplace. Anti-aircraft batteries are something you pretty much have to knock out. If you can polish off a tank or two here and there then that's pretty obviously military too.

    But going after Qaddafi would mean dropping powder on civilian areas where he might be, or where he might have been an hour ago. Sure, if he's dumb enough to present himself as a target of opportunity inspecting a tank column or a SAM site, then he's too dumb to live. But I think it's wise not to commit to killing him from the air. Last time the Americans tried that, they got a couple of hundred dead civilians, no dead Qaddafi and a thousand or so new mortal enemies for their trouble.

    - Jake

    Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

    by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 09:19:16 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Indeed let's recall this:

    U.S. Attacked Iraqi Defenses Starting in 2002

    Air war commanders were required to obtain the approval of Defense Secretary Donald L. Rumsfeld if any planned airstrike was thought likely to result in deaths of more than 30 civilians. More than 50 such strikes were proposed, and all of them were approved.

    IIRC most of those missions were decapitation attempts, and they failed without exception.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:05:14 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    that they tried...

    It could well be that the Obama administration has decided on a different strategy, ruling out decapitation. But I'm not believing Gates just because he says so.

    by Nomad on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:38:24 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The point is that they tried...

    Whose point? I'm lost here.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 02:56:58 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, the track record is pretty poor here. Ronald Reagan tried a decapitation strike against Gaddafi, and that didn't work. The US tried to take out Saddam Hussein, and that didn't work so well either.

    Gates is perhaps simply more reality-based than his predecessors.

    The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

    by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:47:58 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    6:15pm

    Libyan rebel envoy has told Associated Press news agency they do not want Muammar Gaddafi killed. After his ouster they would like him to stand trial.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:21:51 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libyafeb17.com

    02:13 Almanara Media is confirming from trusted sources that Khamis Al Gaddafi has passed away on Sunday due to severe burn injuries he sustained a few days ago. The burns were caused when a fighter jet pilot performed a martyr mission and crashed his fighter jet into Gaddafi's compound Baab Al Aziziyah. IMPORTANT: We are only citing Almanara Media for this news. We have not confirmed it via any other source.

    If confirmed this might significantly impact the morale of the Khamis Brigade.

    As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 01:10:09 AM EST
    I think the death of any powerful member of the Gaddafi clan is likely to impact morale on all sides of this conflict.

    The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
    by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:02:09 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    12:41pm

    The Guardian newspaper's Chris McGreal was on the road today near Ajdabiya, around 160km south of Benghazi, where Gaddafi troops are still fighting with rebels. That appears to be the current front line. The rebels, he says, view the coalition airstrikes "as part of their campaign." That's not what the West wants to hear; they're trying to keep themselves from becoming embroiled in a full-scale regime change effort.




    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:09:26 AM EST
    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    12:11pm

    Meanwhile, the violence continues inside Libya. Rob Crilly, a correspondent for the Telegraph newspaper, tweets that he was halted during an attempt to get into Ajdabiya - south of Benghazi - because rebels in front of him were caught in an ambush and four were killed. Rebels may still be trapped inside Ajdabiya by pro-Gaddafi troops, he says.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:10:01 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    10:38am Amr Moussa, the secretary general of the Arab League, appeared to backtrack on the League's support for the coalition yesterday, saying the jet and cruise-missile strikes "differ[ed] from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone."Moussa and his colleagues had asked the UN Security Council days before to institute a no-fly zone and left it up to the member states as to how it might be carried out, so yesterday's remarks had some observers scratching their heads.Today, UK foreign secretary William Hague attempted a bit of damage control. Hague said he had spoken with Moussa, who still supported the coalition."I think too much was made of Amr Moussa's comments," he said. "I will be talking to him again today."


    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:11:16 AM EST
    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    12:30pm

    UN chief Ban Ki-moon, who spoke with Amr Moussa in Cairo today, was mobbed by dozens of pro-Gaddafi demonstrators today, the AFP reports. Ban was going to walk to Tahrir Square, the heart of the Egyptian revolution, but the demonstrators forced his delegation back into the Arab League.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:11:27 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Dozens?

    Hey.

    by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 08:59:31 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Private Eye | Official Site
    AS the western nations get a green light from the UN Security Council to impose a "no fly" zone over Libya, the UK Foreign Office list of arms exports from Britain suggests that the UK has done much to help Gaddafi's forces fly (and drop bombs) in the first place.

    In 2005, the UK licensed the sale of £29.5m worth of "military transport aircraft" to the colonel; and in 2009 and 2010 licensed the sale of "bombing computers" and "military aircraft ground equipment" too.

    In addition, between 2005 and 2007, sales of armoured all-wheel drive vehicles, armoured personnel carriers, night vision goggles and water cannon got the go-ahead.

    The biggest shipments (and most alarming ones, given how Gaddafi's forces are repressing the population) suggest that the exports didn't even help boost British manufacturing. In 2007, for example, a job lot of "anti-riot shields, body armour, anti-riot guns, crowd control ammunition, smoke ammunition, tear gas/irritant ammunition, smoke hand grenades & CS hand grenades" were licensed for export to Libya by British businessmen. The materials, however, were from Serbia.

    In 2005, a £41m package of battlefield weapons, including heavy machine guns, armour for tanks, day and night sights for weapons and military image intensifier equipment, originally from the Ukraine, was also licensed.



    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 09:17:46 AM EST
    And if remember a number I read in dead tree news the other day, the EU payed (or offered) about 45 million euros for Libya's services as refugee-stoppers.

    So EU countries gave Gaddafi money for - lets face it - killing people. EU countries then accepted the money (or other money) as payment for advanced weaponry, the use of which is to better kill people. And now EU countries are bombing his advanced weaponry (and troops manning it) because Gaddafi is killing people.

    Clearly we are dealing with a madness, but it does not seem to be contained to Tripoli.

    A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

    by A swedish kind of death on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 02:53:39 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The cycle needing to be broken.

    Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
    by ATinNM on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:04:53 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Question if it will be broken, as the same offer will probably go out to the next ruler.

    A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
    by A swedish kind of death on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:19:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Four New York Times journalists detained in #Libya are released and handed to Turkey´s embassy in Tripoli, from AFP

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 09:53:28 AM EST
    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
    4:30pm

    Libyan rebels say pro-Gaddafi troops in Misurata are using a number of civilians from neighbouring towns as human shields.

    This was to be expected...

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:07:03 AM EST
    Eastern front:

    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs

    4:12pm

    Libyan opposition National Council says eastern gate of Ajdabiya has been recaptured.

    One of the Western fronts:
    Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs

    4:01pm There are reports of heavy shelling by pro-Gaddafi troops in western city of Zintan.

    ...

    2:28pm Swiss journalist Gaetan Vannay has been in the western city of Zintan for the past nine days and says the eastern outskirts of the city are currently under fire and have been since yesterday.



    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:10:27 AM EST
    Frank Gardner (FrankRGardner) on Twitter
    1. Sources close to #Yemen president tell me if he leaves now it will descend into 'Yemenistan' 2 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone
      • Lots of speculation #Yemen President Saleh will step down within hours. If so, his supporters will be looking at facesaving exit


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:11:29 AM EST
      BBC News - Live: Libya crisis
      "The warlord Sarkozy [the French president] wants to 'Arabise' the coalition against Colonel Gaddafi," writes journalist Arnaud Leparmentier in a blog hosted by France's Le Monde website (in French). "This is his first war... He wants to follow in the footsteps of [former President] Jacques Chirac, the defender of the Arab peoples, not those of George W Bush... However, the Arab League seemed to be backtracking Sunday, and the Arab public are worried about bombardments carried out by what is not an international coalition, but essentially a US-Franco-British one. On Sunday evening, he called Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed, emir of Abu Dhabi, to encourage him to participate in the coalition."


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:16:52 AM EST
      Private Eye | Official Site
      HOW did Mutassim Gaddafi, the fourth son of the Libyan dictator and now the country's detested "national security adviser", get where he is today? Only with the considerable help of blue chip western management consultants who employ the cream of Britain's spies.

      Monitor Group, the global management consultancy that has been working for Libya since 2006, has already been criticised for its PR for the regime, which included paying such "thinkers" as Anthony Giddens, the man who so inspired Tony Blair, to meet Colonel Gaddafi and say nice things about him.

      But Monitor, which hired the former head of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove, and the MI6 agent-turned-BP adviser Sir Mark Allen, also helped Libya build the security and intelligence apparatus which is now being turned against its own people with such bloody effect. As parallels go, it's as if 007 and "C" had retired and gone to work for Dr No's advisers.

      School for despots
      Mutassim Gaddafi and the National Security Council he oversees are a pillar of the Libyan regime - thanks in no small part to Monitor. Not only did its suits mentor the trainee despot; they even discussed with MI6, the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office the possibility of sending him on bespoke "educational" visits to Britain to learn how to deal with such problems as "dissent and extremism". This proposed personal "Draft National Security Syllabus" also included a visit to the Cabinet Office. While the Foreign Office and MoD told Private Eye these visits were indeed "mooted", they did not in the end take place.



      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:23:30 AM EST
      by xurxo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:36:09 AM EST
      Protest, Praise From Balkans As Allied Strikes Continue in Libya :: Balkan Insight
      A small group of protestors, headed by the son of former Yugoslav President Josif Broz Tito, rallied in Belgrade on Sunday brandishing posters in support of the Libyan strongman, while allied forces launched a second wave of airstrikes on the country.

      Meanwhile, in Albania and Kosovo political leaders rushed to praise the western-backed intervention, drawing parallels with NATO air strikes against Slobodan Milosevic, and offered assistance to allied forces.    

      Observers note that the picture emerging from the Balkans, as the air campaign against Gaddafi forces intensifies, reflects political grievances over western intervention but also a dose of pragmatism.


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:40:34 AM EST
      I'm a bit late to the party and didn't realize that the caravan had moved on to this post. So I will repost (for convenience) the stuff I added to Libya - by ATinNM:

      Robert Fisk in his inimitable way describes the ironies and dilemmas waiting for the coalition:

      And let's not be fooled by what the UN resolution really means. Yet again, it's going to be regime-change. And just as in Iraq - to use one of Tom Friedman's only memorable phrases of the time - when the latest dictator goes, who knows what kind of bats will come flying out of the box?

      ... So here are a few things that could go wrong, a sidelong glance at those bats still nestling in the glistening, dank interior of their box. Suppose Gaddafi clings on in Tripoli and the British and French and Americans shoot down all his aircraft, blow up all his airfields, assault his armour and missile batteries and he simply doesn't fade away. I noticed on Thursday how, just before the UN vote, the Pentagon started briefing journalists on the dangers of the whole affair; that it could take "days" just to set up a no-fly zone.

      ... We talk now about the need to protect "the Libyan people", no longer registering the Senoussi, the most powerful group of tribal families in Benghazi, whose men have been doing much of the fighting. King Idris, overthrown by Gaddafi in 1969, was a Senoussi. The red, black and green "rebel" flag - the old flag of pre-revolutionary Libya - is in fact the Idris flag, a Senoussi flag. Now let's suppose they get to Tripoli (the point of the whole exercise, is it not?), are they going to be welcomed there? Yes, there were protests in the capital. But many of those brave demonstrators themselves originally came from Benghazi. What will Gaddafi's supporters do? "Melt away"? Suddenly find that they hated Gaddafi after all and join the revolution? Or continue the civil war?

      And what if the "rebels" enter Tripoli and decide Gaddafi and his crazed son Saif al-Islam should meet their just rewards, along with their henchmen? Are we going to close our eyes to revenge killings, public hangings, the kind of treatment Gaddafi's criminals have meted out for many a long year? I wonder. Libya is not Egypt.

      ... It is all wearingly familiar. And now we are back at it again, banging our desks in spiritual unity. We don't have many options, do we, unless we want to see another Srebrenica? But hold on. Didn't that happen long after we had imposed our "no-fly" zone over Bosnia?

      geo-magazine reporter Gabriele Riedle visited the country recently and comes away with a completely different assessment of the situation. Basically, she saw a power struggle between factions and tribes.

      What do the demonstrators want? The surprising answer of the journalist: "I haven't met a single person who talks of democracy." The reflex of the West to think of the protest as good and bringing democracy is nothing more than "wishful thinking à la CNN" says Riedle and believes instead that the protests are more about a redistribution of power.

      ... What does the power struggle mean for the future of the country and social progress? And does the ouster of Gadaffi solve the problems? Gabriele Riedle's answer is less than optimistic. "What's supposed to get better? The privileges will be gone as well as the benefits and women will be afraid that the country will turn more fundamentalist." The protests have gained their own dynamic that have nothing to do with political intentions. "Someone shoots, then there is grief and then there is more shooting."

      ... An assessment that is shared by the Northern-Africa expert Thomas Hasel of the Otto-Suhr Institute. Especially the strong rivalries between tribes would make it difficult to "pull something new out of the hat." Additionally, there are no alternative parties (in contrast to Egypt) and no structures of civil society such as associations since they are forbidden.

      I fear the Libya crisis has resurrected (at least for a short time) the unholy alliance of liberal do-gooders and trigger-happy right-wingers that achieved so much mischief in Afghanistan and Iraq. And we're already seeing how they are pouring more fodder into the conflict. France is apparently delivering heavy weapons to the rebels - isn't there some arms embargo in place? This could turn into a long-running civil war between East and West with its attendant refugee crisis. I don't want to imagine what kind of new monsters will be born out this.

      One lesson to take away from the Iraq and Afghanistan disaster was to learn how to let go. The Middle East is on its own path and a beneficial outcome and history cannot be engineered. Instead, the old cliches of 'impending genocide' and 'bad dictators who will be overthrown by democratically minded people' are dusted off for their final performance.

      I hope this goes well. But there is the primary difficulty. What does "well" mean? It's very hard to win a war when you don't define 'victory'. Monsieur Le President Hyperactif probably has no mind for that.

      The age of interventions is over.

      Zenga, zenga!

      _______________________________________________

      Ulrich Ladurner's post on "Die Zeit"'s site poses five questions worth pondering:


      1. What if the no fly zone doesn't work and Gadaffi takes Bengazhi anyway?
        Flying air support for rebels in Bengazhi (indefinitely?) is not covered by the resolution. Or will they have to send in ground troops?

      2. What if the rebels win and commit massacres in Tripolis?
        The rebels are against Gadaffi. That's about the only thing we know. The West has a long history of supporting unsavory rebel groups such as the UCK in Kosovo and the Mujahedin in Afghanistan.

      3. What happens if there is a military stalemate?
        That could split the country. An inherently unstable situation. Wouldn't Gadaffi have to be chased out anyway with additional military power because of the uncertainty? Who wants to monitor Western and Eastern Libya for an indefinite time?

      4. What if Libya drifts into anarchy?
        Afghanistan in the 90's is the template. A failed state. Soon enough the Europeans would have to wonder: who is going to rebuild that place? Recent experiences show we're not very good at that.

      5. Who is actually for this war?
        NATO members are arguing among themselves. The US don't want to take the lead. Germany is staying out. Katar is sending four planes (where are they?). The Arab League (with all the remaining despots as members) gave the green light but immediately criticized the attacks. Only Cameron and Sarkozy are really hot for this war.


      Allied attacks have so far held off loyalist troops from advancing on Benghazi. So the first question is more or less settled for now. But the long-term implications are all but nebulous. In all probability this will not end well.
      by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 02:45:24 PM EST
      France is apparently delivering heavy weapons to the rebels

      Where have you read that? (So far I saw reports of Egyptian arms deliveries only.)

      *Lunatic*, n.
      One whose delusions are out of fashion.

      by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:00:23 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Jerome posted something about that:
      apparently includes France - the Canard Enchainé says that French secret services delivered heavy artillery (105mm cannons) and weapons to Benghazi in the past 10 days.

      Is that a good idea? Fueling a conflict - once you start you can't stop. Président Bang Bang, as he now must be called, will have his little Algeria moment. "L'Algerie pour algerien" I hear in the distance. Or is this our own little Vietnam on close shores?

      by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:16:27 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Thanks, I missed that.

      *Lunatic*, n.
      One whose delusions are out of fashion.
      by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:43:28 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      "Just a Bad, Bad Idea": Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo weighs in:

      ... First, insurrections like these by poorly organized rebel forces depend hugely on momentum and the perceived weakness of the leader. Not long ago Qaddafi's authority appeared to be crumbling. ... It seemed like only a matter of days. Perhaps hours. The turning point came when Qaddafi stabilized the front moving into western Libya. Once that happened, once he'd halted the momentum toward collapse, it was very bad news for the rebels because as we've seen Qaddafi had all the heavy weapons and command and control on his side. By this weekend, without massive outside intervention, it's pretty clear Qaddafi had already won.

      ... Second, it's difficult for me to distinguish this from an armed insurrection against a corrupt autocrat that looked to be winning and then lost. That sort of thing happens a lot. Only in very specific circumstances is there any logic for us to intervene in a situation like that.

      ... It looks more like once we've closed down Qaddafi's air forces we've basically taken custody of what is already a failed rebellion.

      ... So let's review: No clear national or even humanitarian interest for military intervention. Intervening well past the point where our intervention can have a decisive effect. And finally, intervening under circumstances in which the reviled autocrat seems to hold the strategic initiative against us. This all strikes me as a very bad footing to go in on.

      by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:58:17 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Another angle: Patrick Cockburn: "Gaddafi cannot hold out. But who will replace him?"

      The local leaders who rise to the top in these circumstances are usually those who speak the best English and get on with the US and its allies.

      ... Already there are signs that David Cameron, Hillary Clinton and Nicolas Sarkozy are coming to believe too much of their own propaganda, particularly over Arab League support for air strikes. Diplomats normally contemptuous of the views of the Arab League suddenly treat its call for a no-fly zone as evidence that the Arab world favours intervention.

      ... The worst verifiable atrocity in the Arab world in the past week was not in Libya but in Yemen, where pro-government gunmen machine-gunned an unarmed demonstration last Friday, killing 52 people.

      In terms of the exercise of real authority, Gaddafi is likely to be replaced not by Libyans but by the foreign powers which assist in his overthrow. Going by what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq it will not take much for their actions to be seen across the Middle East as hypocritical and self-serving, and resisted as such.

      by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 06:01:45 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      1. What if the no fly zone doesn't work and Gadaffi takes Bengazhi anyway?

        Then the rebels lose Bengazhi. The point of shooting down Qaddafi's air force is to prevent Qaddafi from terror bombing cities he does not like. It is not to support the rebels (whose objectives we do not know).

      2. What if the rebels win and commit massacres in Tripolis?

        Then there is nothing we can do about it. We can prevent terror bombing from the air, and to some degree terror bombing from mobile artillery. We have no way to prevent either side from using ground forces to commit massacres.

      3. What happens if there is a military stalemate?

        Then we withdraw, and leave an anti-aircraft ship or two off the coast to dissuade the use of air power by the belligerents. Nothing more we can do without boots on the ground, and boots on the ground is A Very Bad Idea, for a long list of reasons.

      4. What if Libya drifts into anarchy?

        Isn't that pretty much where it is right now?

      5. Who is actually for this war?

        Doesn't that depend on what magnitude of war we're talking about? I think everybody except a few neocons with penis envy is against committing ground forces. Most people seem to be in favour of not allowing Qaddafi to terror bomb Libyan cities. The main difference of opinion seems to be over the degree to which European bombers should be offering tactical air support to the rebels (for the record, I think that's a bad idea).

      - Jake

      Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

      by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 09:26:22 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Then we withdraw, and leave anti-aircraft ship

      In that case I hope it works out that way. I wonder whether the combined ego of Sarkozy and the rest of Europe will allow that. Mission creep is the biggest risk.

      by epochepoque on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:04:02 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      What I forgot to say: I already hear Rasmussen's voice again "I can't imagine the international community standing by as..."
      by epochepoque on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:31:36 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Scores of mercenaries reach Benghazi for aid

      Ahmad Al Obaidi, member of the February 17th Revolutionary Coalition told Gulf News that militiamen and mercenaries reached Benghazi in scores yesterday looking for food and medical treatment.

      "The soldiers claimed that they have defected from Gaddafi's command and would like to join the revolutionaries if accepted. Most of them were in a miserable condition with wounds and fractures and were looking tfor medical treatment," Al Obaidi said.

      He added that the revolutionaries will offer them the help they need according to international conventions, but will hold mercenaries accountable for the crimes committed against the Libyan people.



      Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
      by ATinNM on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:09:21 PM EST
      So many warmongers on Eurotrib. I am appalled. Not much difference with the NYT or the the Washington Post. War is peace, go kill those infidels. Yeahhhhh. I thought you where suppose to provide links, at least try to support your cheer-leading with something actually publish. Not many links, I guess the effort is not worth it when it is just about comparing gun sizes.
      by xurxo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:32:05 PM EST
      Huh!?

      I note that the one debate you have been involved in in this thread wasn't about any ET poster's support or rejection of the war, but Hezbollah's position, and you have been provided with links.

      *Lunatic*, n.
      One whose delusions are out of fashion.

      by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:41:07 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      "The fewer bombs dropped, and the more clearly military the targets, the less the risk of hitting a couple of weddings and a marketplace. Anti-aircraft batteries are something you pretty much have to knock out. If you can polish off a tank or two here and there then that's pretty obviously military too.
      But going after Qaddafi would mean dropping powder on civilian areas where he might be, or where he might have been an hour ago. Sure, if he's dumb enough to present himself as a target of opportunity inspecting a tank column or a SAM site, then he's too dumb to live. But I think it's wise not to commit to killing him from the air. Last time the Americans tried that, they got a couple of hundred dead civilians, no dead Qaddafi and a thousand or so new mortal enemies for their trouble."

      "I agree.
      Looks like the French caught a Palmaria SP 155mm howitzer battery on the move and blowed-it-up real good.  
      Libya Army has about 160 of these things and they are the "heavy" artillery of the Libyan military.  There's all kinds of munitions available for a 155mm tube including a laser guided anti-tank missile, though the Libyans shouldn't have any.  They will have HE, shrapnel, and white phosphorous and that's bad enough.  
      A very high value target.  Good on you, whoever spotted these. "

      "Looking at pictures 6, 8 and 10 here, where they say Tanks they mean SP Artillery (although other pictures include tanks. Going agressively after that stuff is a far better way of defending civilians than going after tanks."

      "This is crap.
      They had a chance during the day to stop fighting and they attacked Musurata and Zintan.  Now that their forces are getting the shit kicked out of them they start making noises."

      by xurxo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:14:56 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Well seeing as one of those comments is mine and Im in effect being accused of being a warmonger, let me reply.

      You don't Know what the fuck you're talking about

      If you look at what has actually been said, you'll see that we're discussing a) the reliability of reporting, and their tendency for war reporting to become completely inaccurate (The second and third comments)

      The first comment covers the ethics of the use of air deployed weapons, and how a decapitation strategy is probably unworkable as it increases the risk of civilian casualties unacceptably.

      the fourth comment is on the likelihood of the announced ceasefire actually being real.

      What do you wish us to have done? wrung our hands and decry any action while the local government settled any disagreement with its citizens with heavy artillery?

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:45:29 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      There were a couple of uncomfortable comments in this and the older thread that seemed like cheering on a football match, or simplifying and reducing the conflict to the person of one tinpot dictator (as it was done during the Iraq War). However, overall, I think commenters had a whole range of views, from an unabashed pro-rebels stance through more cautious views and Sarko-cynism to clear opposition to Western intervention.

      *Lunatic*, n.
      One whose delusions are out of fashion.
      by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:30:47 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Nah, we're apparently all parroting corporate media propaganda.

      So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
      by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:50:42 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      As most of the rest of the comments are mine ...

      I only monger wars on a retail basis.  When a government immediately responds to protesters by shooting them with 12.7mm anti-aircraft rounds:

      [not me in the picture]

      and they rise against a brutal regime to protect their basic human rights, that's a war I'm willing to monger.

      Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

      by ATinNM on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:21:38 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Where in that round is there a 12.7mm length?

      So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
      by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:23:12 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      beat me to it, id say its more a 23 mm round

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:25:16 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Don't know why I typed 12.7mm.  The Shilka's 2A7 autocannon use 23mm rounds.

      Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
      by ATinNM on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:30:40 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      (you $%#$%! war-mongers)

      Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
      by ATinNM on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:32:08 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      reading , its belts of three rounds high explosive incendiary, followed by one of armour piercing as standard. that has got to make an exceptionaly terrible mess of any crowds, treating anything they want to hide behind as no more inconvenient than clouds.

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:40:11 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      What's the 23mm? The blue? the silver?

      So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
      by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:17:42 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      the  width of the bullet, guns are described  by a measure of the diameter of the hole (the bore) and the length. so in the modern system  you'd see a gun described as 75 L50 it would be 75mm across the hole, and the length of the barrel is 50 multiples of the width, or 3.75 metres. older guns are described as being a 24 lb gun, this is the weight of the theoretical sphere of lead that would fit inside the barrel,

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:17:57 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Somehow that round looked wider than 23mm to me - I guess I have faulty intuitions about the lengths of fingers.

      So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
      by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:54:47 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      The round is wider than the bore at the base. The lower part of the round contains propellant encased in a casing that is ejected from the chamber after the weapon is discharged, not fired out the barrel. I don't know precisely where the casing ends and the bit that goes out the barrel begins, but the blue part would not be a bad guess.

      - Jake

      Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

      by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 07:16:19 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      The casing is the brass part.  The bullet is crimped into the casing at the neck, the narrow bit at the top of the casing.  The bullet is held in the casing by mechanical pressure.  The bullet itself is slightly tapered at the base.  

      When fired the propellant burns, releasing gases creating a sharp pressure inside the casing flowing around the bullet's taper, freeing the bullet from the casing, and away she goes.

      (I know this because I'm a war-monger.)

      Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

      by ATinNM on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 01:16:05 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      (From another war monger) There are also the rifling inside the barrel. If you just removed the projectile from the casing and put it in the barrel of the gun it would not just drop through. The widest part of the projectile is compressed by the rifling, causing the projectile to engage and to make a partial revolution on its way down the barrel, thus imparting thes pin which stabilizes the projectile in flight. My guess is that the diameter of the projectile is set so that there is no air gap between it and the barrel during its journey. That would avoid wasting part of the charge.

      As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
      by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:36:55 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      I thought that on first inspection, but looking at the length of the entire shell, it does appear to be about the right size. Looking through the equipment the Libyan army has, there's a gap between those and large guns. due to arms embargos the Libyans didnt upgrade their IFVs from BMP1 to BMP2 which would have left piles of 30mm shells about.

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 07:22:47 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      You need to put that thing down.  You'll shoot your eye out kid. ;)

      Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
      by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:44:11 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      The fewer bombs dropped, and the more clearly military the targets, the less the risk of hitting a couple of weddings and a marketplace. Anti-aircraft batteries are something you pretty much have to knock out. If you can polish off a tank or two here and there then that's pretty obviously military too.
      But going after Qaddafi would mean dropping powder on civilian areas where he might be, or where he might have been an hour ago. Sure, if he's dumb enough to present himself as a target of opportunity inspecting a tank column or a SAM site, then he's too dumb to live. But I think it's wise not to commit to killing him from the air. Last time the Americans tried that, they got a couple of hundred dead civilians, no dead Qaddafi and a thousand or so new mortal enemies for their trouble.

      I am not sure why you think this is warmongering.

      Before the French shot his air force out of the sky, Comrade Qaddafi was using his air force for terror bombing of settlements he does not like. If the French had not shot his air force out of the sky, there is every reason to believe that he would have kept using it for terror bombing of settlements he does not like. If you want to shoot somebody's air force out of the sky, you have to knock out their surface-to-air attack capability. Otherwise, they shoot your air force out of the sky, and go back to what they were doing before you arrived.

      The net result of this is to move the bombing from civilian population centres to anti-aircraft batteries. This strikes me as a net win in humanitarian terms.

      If you actually read the post in question, you will notice that it argues against striking targets that are not clearly required by the need to prevent the Libyan surface to air defences from killing our aircraft.

      However, if you happen to come across a column of self-propelled artillery on an open road, and have reason to believe that it belongs to a faction that likes shelling cities indiscriminately, then knocking it out strikes me as a net win for the people who do not want to see cities shelled indiscriminately. Similarly, if Comrade Qaddafi were to become collateral damage in an otherwise justified attack, I would not particularly mourn his passing.

      - Jake

      Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

      by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 09:09:41 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      You were uninformed on Hezbollah's and Iran's stances in Libya, and you were provided links demonstrating so.

      The fact that you didn't bother to read the links is on you, not us.

      As for warmongers, I think the comments here have largely been observational or linking to what it being reported by the BBC, Al Jazeera and the Guardian.  I think you'd find mostly mixed feelings about this.

      But go on insisting otherwise.

      Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

      by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 06:47:45 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Testimony from someone actually living in Libya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0YYIMz4j6k
      "Collateral damage":
      http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23837
      Congressman: "we are in Libya because of oil":
      http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/21/dem_congressman_were_in_libya_because_of_oil.html
      By the way, Israel is again air striking the civil population in Palestine. I am looking forward to your reaction. No doubt you will be demanding air strikes there.
      by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:52:41 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      "Collateral damage":
      http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23837

      The only actual information on collateral damage in the article:

      Libya: Coalition rejects claims of civilian deaths

      Journalists taken by the Gaddafi government to visit the site shortly after the blast said they saw a bomb-damaged building that appeared to be an administrative center rather than a military barracks or a Gaddafi residence, although the exact nature of the facility could not be definitively confirmed. No casualties were reported, though the government spokesman, Moussa Ibrahim, called it "a barbaric bombing."

      ...Libyan officials and state television have said that dozens of Libyan civilians were killed in the air attacks. But an Indonesian newscaster, Andini Effendi, reported Sunday that she was able to visit two Tripoli hospitals after the airstrikes early on Sunday and found no influx of casualties, only empty ambulances. Libyan officials promised Sunday to bring foreign journalists to a funeral for civilians killed in the attacks. But the funeral turned out to be more of a pro-Gaddafi political rally, and the true number of dead remained a mystery.

      It's hard to gauge the number of civilian killed when one doesn1t trust the claims of either side and there are no independent witnesses. But there is one point that makes me more sceptical of the claims of the Ghaddafi regime than NATO in this instance: that the Ghaddafi regime didn't take journalists on propagandistic trips to the site of alleged airstrikes with civilian dead. In contrast, the Saddam regime did take journalists to the site of the 1991 Amiriyah shelter bombing. Ghaddafi himself allowed Western press to the sites where civilians were killed in the 1986 US attempt to assassinate him.

      *Lunatic*, n.
      One whose delusions are out of fashion.

      by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:00:13 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      FMC the Netherlands (FMCNL) on Twitter
      1. @USAfricaCommand be advised, one of your WEASEL's F-16CJ from 23th FS Spangdahlem Germany has his transponder Mode-S on! NOT secure! about 13 hours ago via web
        • PSYOPS is is airborne again! USAF EC-130J tail nr 00-1934 callsign STEEL 74 in orbit near Libya at FL250 #Libya #OdysseyDawn

        FMC the Netherlands (FMCNL) on Twitter

        1. Mission switch, USAF is RTB, French Air Force is coming up, first one is MARC 36, a Stratotanker C-135FR tail nr 497 #Libya #OdysseyDawn about 12 hours ago via web
          • Hmmm, second fighter showing his ID, a USAF F-15E from 494FS Lakenheath UK, I presume Gadhafis radar equipment has destroyed :o)


          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:47:54 PM EST
          Reuters - Libyan government spokesman says many killed after west hit several ports and Sirte airport in campaign

          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 03:50:03 PM EST
          Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
          8:53pm

          Italy warns that it will review the use of its bases by coalition forces for strikes against Libya if the mission doesn't pass to NATO's command.



          *Lunatic*, n.
          One whose delusions are out of fashion.
          by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:14:53 PM EST
          Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
          Timestamp:  6:30pm

          The United Arab Emirates said on Monday that its involvement in Libya is limited to humanitarian assistance, after reports that it would send warplanes to patrol a UN-backed no-fly zone.



          *Lunatic*, n.
          One whose delusions are out of fashion.
          by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:18:38 PM EST
          [ Parent ]
          Libya Live Blog - March 21 | Al Jazeera Blogs
          5:54pm

          Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president,  has slammed prime minister Vladimir Putin's comments on military action against Libya as "unacceptable", in the most public clash yet between Russia's ruling tandem.

          Putin earlier Monday denounced the UN resolution allowing military action on Libya as resembling a "medieval call to crusade", in one of his most virulent diatribes against the West in years.



          *Lunatic*, n.
          One whose delusions are out of fashion.
          by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:22:58 PM EST
          [ Parent ]
          One more sign that if NATO wants to make it a bit further into the 21st century, it will have to re-concentrate on actual defense [of its treaty signatories]. This whole expeditionary force idea is untenable. There are already too many failed states.
          by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:32:16 PM EST
          [ Parent ]
          As long as NATO is like the Delian League, I just want it dissolved :-)

          *Lunatic*, n.
          One whose delusions are out of fashion.
          by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:43:20 PM EST
          [ Parent ]
          There are already too many failed states.

          And, sadly, several of them are NATO members in good standing.

          - Jake

          Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

          by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 08:47:42 PM EST
          [ Parent ]
          A Tiny Revolution: The Lesson the U.S. Is Teaching the World in Libya
          In all the discussion about the current U.S. bombing of Libya, something important has gone almost unnoticed--the lesson the United States is teaching the government of every country on earth. That lesson is: no matter what, no matter the inducements or pressure, never ever give up chemical weapons or a nuclear weapons program.


          Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter
          by generic on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:37:42 PM EST
          I though that lesson had already been taught by Iraq and North Korea.
          by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:59:46 PM EST
          [ Parent ]
          Unconfirmed:

          Via Family: Any male above the age of 16 has been killed, kidnapped, missing, or they've escaped Zawiyah


          Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
          by ATinNM on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 08:18:12 PM EST
          Reuters - U.S. military says U.S. fighter jet has crashed in Libya, one crewman recovered, one "in process of recovery"

          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:40:24 AM EST
          US claims loss Likely down to mechanical failure rather than enemy fire

          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:46:24 AM EST
          [ Parent ]
          Libya: US fighter jet crash lands in field near Benghazi - Telegraph

          The pilot of the F-15E fighter jet was rescued by rebel soldiers after ejecting from the aircraft, it is understood. Another crew member is also thought to have ejected.

          The crashed plane was discovered by a Telegraph journalist reporting in and around Benghazi, the rebel-held city.

          It is thought the F-15E fighter jet came to ground after suffering a mechanical failure.

          The US military confirmed that one of its jets had crash landed. Vince Crawley, a spokesman for the U.S. military's Africa Command, said that one crewman had been recovered and one was "in process of recovery".

          Crawley said the crash occurred "overnight." He declined to give the location of the crash and also would not say how the rescued crewman was picked up.



          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:58:14 AM EST
          [ Parent ]
          Ah. Rescue mission done – and we have the first confirmed shooting at civilians...

          Live Blog Libya - March 22 | Al Jazeera Blogs

          7:25pm

          Channel 4 News is reporting that six villagers in a field on the outskirts of Benghazi were shot and injured when a US helicopter landed to rescue a crew membr from the US fighter jet that crashed late on Monday.

          It said the local Libyans who were injured in the rescue mission are currently in hospital and that one young boy is expected to have his leg amputated due to a bullet wound.



          *Lunatic*, n.
          One whose delusions are out of fashion.
          by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:48:32 PM EST
          [ Parent ]
          Jon Snow (jonsnowC4) on Twitter
          1. Lindsey Hilsum exclusiv report on C4news:US rescue chopper shoots Libyan rebel rescuers of crew of crashed US F15 wounding six one loses leg about 2 hours ago via web
            • Ghastly screwup in Libya:Us jet crashes:rebels save crew:US rescuers shoot rebel rescuers:one has leg amputated:Lindsey Hilsum C4News tonite


            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:17:27 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Ghastly screwup

            More like Iraq/Afghanistan rules of operation brought to Libya, methinks...

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.

            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:56:27 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Apparently it's the helicopter door gunner did it.

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:39:51 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            I think it is one thing to aim to protect civilians, but measures like a no-fly zone, an arms embargo or a prohibition of foreign occupation forces have nontrivial effects on the balance of forces and it is not clear that the consequences have been weighed.

            It appears that "the international community" has sided with the rebels - this includes the Arab League, crucially.

            However, the rebels have indicated they want "no foreign boots on the ground" - this has been respected by the UNSC which prohibits foreign occupation forces. Question: is Gaddafi's use of foreign mercenaries a violation of this? Will the rebels be aided by foreign volunteers?

            The no-fly zone is justified by the perception that air strikes are mostly indiscriminate and were being used by Gaddafi to target civilians. There are even allegations already the the "allied" air strikes enforcing the no-fly zone have hit civilians, too, even if they were targeted at Gaddafi's military forces. Evidently the no-fly zone nullifies one of Gaddafi's advantages (behavioural if not material - Gaddafi seemed willing to bomb cities and there had been defections of pilots with their aircraft out of Gaddsfi's ranks so it's not clear whether the rebels had any planes or would in the future acquire more).

            Now for the arms embargo. This is a favourite measure to impose on armed conflicts. It was used in the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s.

            I have mixed feelings about both the no-fly zones and the arms embargos because they just tend to drag conflicts out longer. It appears that the aggressor in most cases is the side with a weaker political position but a stronger military position. So an arms embargo does not allow the militarily weaker side to build up forces to defend itself and eventually counterattack and win. This happened during the Spanish Civil War of 1936-9. The Republic was hamstrung by the arms embargo and the official neutrality of the League of Nations, and the war dragged on for 3 years and ended up being a proxy war between the Soviet Union on the one hand and the German/Italian axis on the other. Franco led a scorched earth strategy, purging his rearguard, laying siege to cities for years and dragging out the conflict to ensure the maximum amount of destruction - his goal was not merely victory but extermination of the Republicans.

            I'm afraid that in Libya we'll end up seeing the same. Gaddafi can bankroll a mercenary army, has extensive connections with arms dealers, no qualms about violating the arms embargo, and the character and motivation for a scorched-earth campaign. Whether he wins or not, this will be a dragged out, brutal war, partly because of things like the arms embargo.

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:49:22 AM EST
            On the other hand, I would not be comfortable selling guns to the rebels. We know nothing about them, we do not have a clear picture of their motives, their strategic objectives, or even how many distinct factions there are.

            Given that we can't actually enforce an arms embargo, it's effectively just a pretentious way of saying that we won't actively sell weapons to any of the belligerents at the moment.

            - Jake

            Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

            by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 07:24:22 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            As I understand it, and IANAL, without an arms embargo both Gadaffi and the TNC could purchase on the open market and import into their respective ports.  Arms dealers don't give credit.  Given the regime has "hundreds of billions," according to news reports, outside the country to purchase weapons, munitions, and other military gear not having an arms embargo in place favors them.  The TNC's problem is they don't have money, in hand, to purchase what they need and have to scramble to find money.  

            One odd fact: both sides have been trained on and are using Warsaw Pact era weapons.  I doubt much of this is being manufactured so the source(s) for this equipment, especially the heavy equipment, will largely be whatever is lying around in Eastern Europe and former Soviet client's mothball depots.  How much of this stuff is workable is: take a guess.  How much of this stuff will be sold, and by who, and at what price, is: take a guess.

            Mixing new equipment with old equipment is a logistical nightmare.  "Upgrading" either to side to modern weapons would cost in the tens of billions.  The regime could afford it.  The TNC almost certainly couldn't.

            The final result of an arms embargo depend on how it's enforced.  I find it hard to believe the coalition is going to allow the regime to purchase and import what they need.  I am more willing to believe the coalition will allow arms and supplies to flow to the TNC.  

            Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

            by ATinNM on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:24:27 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Theres a comment somewhere (maybe here but I can't find it) that the regime has a 2 Billion contract to update the regiemes T72 tanks, and there's an outstanding 4 billion contract to update other land equipment.

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:33:19 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Thats with the Russian fed

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:33:46 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Now we know why Putin is pissed.

            As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
            by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:43:43 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            There's plenty of Google links for "Libya T-72 upgrade" as the search terms.

            I can't find, 'tho I didn't look very hard, for any reference to the tanks actually being upgraded or what "upgraded" means.  It could be no more than bringing non-working T-72s - of which Libya had a lot - into working condition.

            Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

            by ATinNM on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:46:09 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            That's one example, but Afghanistan, Zaire/Congo or Somalia are other examples, where the weapons supplied once keep being used for killing people in successive armed conflicts. It does matter perhaps that Republican Spain still had in theory a central government, while in the other cases (and Lybia), there were patchwork coalitions that could easily break up and form new fronts once victorious against the old common enemy.

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.
            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:24:22 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Laura Kuenssberg (BBCLauraK) on Twitter
            UK sources suggesting command of operation might be taken by a hybrid - not a straight NATO operation but using their structures

            Laura Kuenssberg (BBCLauraK) on Twitter

            NATO meeting now to hammer out structure but 'it s difficult' - particularly getting Turks on board-they weren't invited to Paris summit


            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:55:04 AM EST
            This is demonstrating that the EU's defence structures are not worth the time that has been devoted to building them.

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 07:15:18 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Well, they are of limited use as offensive structures.

            As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
            by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:48:04 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            They have been putting together "battlegroups" and command and control structures for crises, and rapid reaction forces and all that good stuff... This kind of crisis seems like the perfect setting to try them out. But then all we have is Ashton making platitudes about how there's a common policy which will be implemented individually at each member state's pace.

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:53:58 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            The important thing is to support each state's armaments industry, it would seem. If they want to keep the funds flowing they had better get SOME operational capability soon. The Libyan episode will make it obvious that they don't have that capability.

            But, if they did, how likely would it be that it would be deployed in this circumstance? How many nations have to agree and which nation?

            As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

            by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:08:15 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            The political unity required for Ashton to commit to a collective European response simply isn't there. The only people who can order European punitive expeditions and expect compliance are the US State Department. And while I detest the fact that the US can order around European militaries, the fact that the EU has no ability to commit to independent offencive operations does not strike me as unequivocally bad.

            That said, most individual European member states seem to be joining the effort to ground Comrade Qaddafi's air force. The Danish parliament OK'ed it unanimously. You can count the number of unanimous votes in the Danish parliament in living memory on the fingers of one hand and still have some left over, so this is in itself rather remarkable.

            - Jake

            Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

            by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:47:59 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            ARGeezer:
            The important thing is to support each state's armaments industry, it would seem.
            Oh, yeah, the EU spends a lot of time negotiating rules about "procurement".

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 05:07:38 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Of course they do.

            It's the only form of industrial policy that isn't Unserious.

            - Jake

            Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

            by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:14:44 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            The Libyan TNC should have dispatched their most prominent and prestigious willing citizen to Turkey to lobby for a more forthcoming attitude by the Turks.  

            As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
            by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:47:05 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            In the Mideast, useful and non-useful tyrants - The Washington Post
            Why is Libya so different? Basically, because the dictators of Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia -- also Jordan and the Persian Gulf sheikdoms, for that matter -- are friendly, cooperative and useful. Gaddafi is not.


            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 09:57:06 AM EST
            The dictator of Yemen appears to be tottering...

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:48:39 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            EXCLUSIVE: Libyans Use Journalists as Human Shields - FoxNews.com

            EXCLUSIVE:  An attack on the compound of Libyan leader Muammar al-Qaddafi on Sunday had to be curtailed because of journalists nearby, Fox News has learned.

            British sources confirmed that seven Storm Shadow missiles were ready to be fired from a British aircraft, but the strikes had to be curtailed due to crews from CNN, Reuters and other organizations nearby. Officials from Libya's Ministry of Information brought those journalists to the area to show them damage from the initial attack and to effectively use them as human shields.

            The curtailment of this mission led to a great deal of consternation by coalition commanders, sources told Fox News, but they opted to call off the mission to avoid civilian casualties.



            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:12:26 AM EST
            Robertson: This allegation is outrageous and it's absolutely hypocritical - CNN Press Room - CNN.com Blogs

            WOLF BLITZER, HOST:  On another related - unrelated matter - maybe it is related

            - I want you to explain what you know about this suggestion Fox News reporting that you, a Reuters crew, some other journalists, were effectively used by Gadhafi as a human shield to prevent Allied fighter planes from coming in and attacking a certain position.

            Explain what you know about this.

            NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT:  Wolf, this allegation is outrageous and it's absolutely hypocritical.  You know, when you come to somewhere like Libya, you expect lies and deceit from the dictatorship here.  You don't expect it from the other journalists.

            Why do I say that?

            Because Fox News has said that they didn't send somebody on this trip last night because they said it was a quote, unquote, "propaganda trip."

            They sent a member of their team.  He was non-editorial.  He was non-technical, not normally a cameraman.  He was given a camera by the team and told to come out and come on - come on the bus with the 40 other journalists who were there, who were free to get on the bus, free to get on the bus when they wanted, told us, when he was on the bus, that even he - this member of this Fox team, was surprised that their correspondent and the normal cameraman weren't coming out, that he was being sent - this isn't his normal job - that he was being sent.

            So that's why I say what Fox is saying is outrageous and hypocritical.



            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:13:03 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Someone at Fox was concerned that the newsies were being used as "civilian shields" and then reported that as fact. But, if the trip was at night, I would have been equally concerned about that possibility.

            As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
            by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:52:01 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            So they sent a low level employee instead? Interesting employee policy there.

            A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
            by A swedish kind of death on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:54:20 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Yeah, Fox has a definite risk hierarchy, it would seem. Wouldn't want to risk a high value employee.

            As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
            by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:04:30 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            The thought of Gadaffi and Glen Beck co-hosting a TV show on Fox News has a strange appeal.

            Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
            by ATinNM on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 08:59:59 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Yes! The thought of Glenn Beck and Gadaffi doing a joint surprise live TV broadcast from Bab Al-Aziziyah which goes on the air mere seconds before a Tomahawk or Stormshadow flies through the window....

            As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
            by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:36:08 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Fox News Reporter Lambastes CNN Rival, Calls His Reporting 'Bullsh*t' | TPMDC

            The hostilities between the Libya correspondents for Fox News and CNN continue to play out in the media. Responding to Monday's fusillade by CNN's foreign correspondent Nic Robertson, Fox News reporter Steve Harrigan questioned his rival's manhood in an interview with Huffington Post.

            "He puts on his blue blazer and gets on the government bus, and then pats himself on the back and calls that news?" Harrigan says. "Bullshit."

            The feud started Monday when Fox reported that CNN and other Fox competitors were lured into a propaganda mission by Libyan officials, and used as human shields against a British missile attack. Fox stands by their scoop that the reporters were used as shields, but has since acknowledged that one of their own employees was on the trip as well. But before they issued the correction, CNN's man on the ground in Libya, Nic Robertson, took issue with Fox and his colleague Harrigan as well.



            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 08:59:20 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            George Galloway on Wests Libya intervention
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:05:08 AM EST
                US shamelessly admitting to funding Middle East revolutions - landdestroyer.blogspot.com.

            As previously reported, the US State Department manages a vast array of extra-legal networks of NGOs, propaganda outlets, and organizations like Movements.org that are literally recruiting and training foreign protesters and supporting their efforts as they return home to incite unrest and regime change. It was described how Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was literally sitting on the Broadcasting Board of Governors which oversees "news agencies" like Voice of America, Radio Free Europe, and Radio Free Asia.
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:15:12 AM EST
            I call bullshit.

            The US was flat-footed by these revolutions, and now they're trying to take credit for Arab popular organisation. If they had been actively fomenting them, Serbia style, both their policy and propaganda in relation to the last month's events would have been much more coherent.

            - Jake

            Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

            by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:20:28 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Globalist crimes against humanity expanded over Libya - www.activistpost.com

            The Libyan rebellion began on February 17, 2011 after a call from London based Libyan opposition leaders of the NCLO for a "Day of Rage" (Arabic link: use Google Translator). The call was fashioned after the US State Department recruited, trained, funded, and supported uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt. The most recent admission of US involvement in the "Arab Spring" came from Hillary Clinton herself who admitted the US State Department, the Department of Defense, and the Broadcasting Board of Governors have been funding tech firms providing the revolutions with tools to circumvent cyber security employed by various Western targeted regimes.
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:18:21 AM EST
            You are not increasing your credibility by posting links to green-ink websites like activistpost.

            From their current "most viewed articles:"

            TODAY'S MOST VIEWED ARTICLES
            Japan's Nuclear Crisis Debacle and the Depopulation Agenda
            The Surprising PNAC Connection to Libya
            HAARP Data Says Japan Quake was Induced
            5 Theories Why We're Experiencing Increased Earthquake Activity
            Libyan War: Globalists Bluffing Their Way To Victory
            Libya: Another War, Another Pack of Lies
            Obama Starts Another Illegal War, Rangel Calls For Draft
            3 Ways To Protect Yourself From Radiation NATURALLY
            Radiation Protection, Now and Long Term
            How to Become a World Class Survivalist in 5 Simple Steps

            Of the six articles in that list not related to Libya, I count two clear-cut conspiracy theories, and two more that set off my tinfoil allergy.

            - Jake

            Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

            by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:28:21 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Shall I  refer to Rupert Murdoch's media? Is it there where credibility rests for you?
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:35:03 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            May I suggest that you post your analysis of the Libya situation as a diary?

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:47:53 AM EST
            [ Parent ]
            No, need to. I am just enrage by the hypocrisy of those in power in Spain. It is got to my nerves. But it is such a beautiful afternoon and there is no oil underground here. I think I will go and pry for Zapatero to suffer some incurable disease, so he can not join Aznar in living the good life that awaits those that served well the International Crime Syndicate (how is that for a conspiracy?).
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:11:07 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            xurxo:
            No, need to.
            Why? Because the case is self-evident or because there is no case?

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:12:59 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Well, in my opinion western corporate media lost all credibility in the last decade; The war on terror, the financial ponzi pyramid happened not so long ago (still on). How did corporate media covered those? What about the meme financials are the economy? How about saving financial institutions as workers rights go back a 100 years? Where where El Pais, El Mundo, ABC, Fox, The Guardian, Der Spiegel, NBC? Did they or did they not provided the cover up for such world changing events? These corporate mediums really deserve our trust...
            So, in this thread I see almost only one side of the story (corporate media's, IN MY OPINION). That makes me uneasy.
            The only reason I said no need to is because I realized I am wasting my time; The only thing is, if you want someone to go away patronizing him may be not the best idea.
            Salud.
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:39:02 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Is twitter corporate media?

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:46:14 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            I think twitter is a fish tank for corporations. By corporations I also mean states. Did I say only corporate media was used?
                U.S. State Department speaks to Twitter over Iran - Reuters
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:18:25 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            xurxo:
            So, in this thread I see almost only one side of the story (corporate media's, IN MY OPINION). That makes me uneasy.
            The only reason I said no need to is because I realized I am wasting my time; The only thing is, if you want someone to go away patronizing him may be not the best idea.
            Which is why
            I suggest that you post your analysis of the Libya situation as a diary
            But if you think that's patronizing...

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:48:33 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            What do you think of Al Jazeera? (I think that was the most quoted corporate news source in the Libya diaries on ET.)

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.
            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:20:43 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Al Jazeera is a beacon of freedom in a country ruled by an absolute monarchy.
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:53:58 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            It also quite obviously opposes Ghaddafi, supports the rebels and supports the NFZ. And also supported the other Arab revolutions which your conspiracy theory article claimed to be fake revolutions engineered by the USA.

            Like in the case of Hezbollah, it seems you have too simple a view of interests and players.

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.

            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:02:32 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            You are aware that there are outlets that are neither far-right propaganda sites nor tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists, right? Surely you realise that one does not have to trust the benevolence of the American government in order to mistrust the analytical acumen and basic sanity of green-ink websites that use terms like "globalist conspiracy."

            Or, in other words, I'll take a third option.

            - Jake

            Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

            by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:36:38 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            "You are aware that there are outlets that are neither far-right propaganda sites nor tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists, right?"
            This I call patronizing. I am aware thank you very much.
            By the way using the tinfoil argument it is a great way of having a civilized discussion; next to calling someone anti-Semite if he opposes Israel ethnic cleansing, or nazi if he just opposes your opinion on anything.
            Like it or not there is not only one view on this war (sorry! no fly zone humanitarian campaign) and for your consideration lies and propaganda have been used before in the path to convincing the masses to cheer for war. (That is patronizing too, because of course you do know this. My apologies)
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:32:11 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            These two sound pretty much insane, you have to admit:

            HAARP Data Says Japan Quake was Induced
            Japan's Nuclear Crisis Debacle and the Depopulation Agenda

            ...and this one is borderline:

            5 Theories Why We're Experiencing Increased Earthquake Activity

            Regarding patronizing, you did worse by accusing others to trust Murdoch media just because they don't trust your sources.

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.

            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:43:03 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Sorry, this sinner can not follow you.

            "HAARP Data Says Japan Quake was Induced
            Japan's Nuclear Crisis Debacle and the Depopulation Agenda

            ...and this one is borderline:

            5 Theories Why We're Experiencing Increased Earthquake Activity"

            I am afraid you are barking at wrong dog.

            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:58:13 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            What is that supposed to mean? Do you think all of those claims are sane?... And do you think there is an increase in earthquake activity in need of theories?

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.
            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:59:27 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Aaaagh had to spend an hour yesterday explaining why his Haarp theory that the US had caused the Japanese earthquake seemed utter madness

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:19:20 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            "You are aware that there are outlets that are neither far-right propaganda sites nor tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists, right?"
            This I call patronizing. I am aware thank you very much.

            You presented a false dichotomy. Either I accepted your tinfoil covered source, or I accepted the Murdoch press. Now you admit that you knowingly presented a false dichotomy.

            If that's the standard of your reasoning, then you are not raising the signal-to-noise ratio of the discussion.

            By the way using the tinfoil argument it is a great way of having a civilized discussion; next to calling someone anti-Semite if he opposes Israel ethnic cleansing,

            Put a link in there you might want to check before you toss around that sort of accusation.

            Like it or not there is not only one view on this war

            And you are entitled to your own opinion.

            But on European Tribune, you are not entitled to your own facts. And you are not entitled to cite crazy conspiracy theorists as if they were credible sources.

            - Jake

            Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

            by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 06:48:24 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Could you explain why the U.S. would be interested in overthrowing friendly governments in the first place?

            As for your link, I quote

            2011: Late February NFSL/NCLO's Ibrahim Sahad is leading opposition rhetoric, literally in front of the White House in Washington D.C. Calls for no-fly zone in reaction to unsubstantiated accusations Qaddafi is strafing "unarmed protesters" with warplanes.
            Looks at the video. To me, it looks as though he is "literally" in a studio, with a picture of the White House in the background.
            by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:24:40 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            taking that comment about tech firms as proof that the west is behind the revolutions in Arab countries is laughable, makes nice PR for US tech firms, but the people on the ground involved  would no doubt be insulted. The tech involved  is a tremporary game changer for revolutionaries, but in the slightly longer term is an advantage for the state.

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:28:04 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Also, nevermind that in spite of all the talk about Facebook, the way the Egypt protest organizers circumvented cyber (and non-cyber) security was old-fashioned diversion, conspiracy and leafleting in an working-class neighbourhood (see here).

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.
            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:15:37 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            And note that they already had the organisational strenght of organising 21 demonstrations at the same time, so that the first 20 could tie-up the security forces. The building of that strenght appears to have taken years.

            A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
            by A swedish kind of death on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:04:20 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            This was an alliance of the youth groups of several opposition movements, not a new ad-hoc movement: I think the infrastructure for such organisation is less surprising.

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.
            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:08:50 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Yes, I meant that it is a further indication that facebook did not cause this.

            A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
            by A swedish kind of death on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:15:10 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Ah, OK, I get you now.

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.
            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:19:03 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            So posting a link stands for proving something? I am not taking the time for reviewing your posts sorry. I am not that angry.
            I do understand pack mentality; I also express my opinions as I feel them, which sometimes has the result of alienating people.
            The truth is people is dying, and Europeans are still bringing civilization to countries that can not solve their own problems, those barbarians.
            We just write democracy where our ancestors used to write God.
               
            Now if you don't mind I have to go tell my grand children the story of how I assassinated Kennedy and introduced Elvis Presley to drugs.  
            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:16:06 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            So posting a link stands for proving something?

            Do you even read the links you post? Ceebs was responding to claims in what you quoted from your link...

            You have posted a link to a a video of an interview with George Galloway, in which he made some very strong arguments (along with some weaker ones) that basically shut up a hostile interviewee. Your own arguments weren't like that, and you post stuff indiscriminately, Galloway on one hand and conspiracy site garbage on the other hand, and some links you misinterpreted yourself (e.g. collateral damage).

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.

            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:18:07 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
                DOD News Briefing with Secretary Gates and Adm. Mullen from the Pentagon March 01, 2011

                 Q:  Do you see any evidence that he actually has fired on his own people from the air?  There were reports of it, but do you have independent confirmation?  If so, to what extent?

                        SEC. GATES:  We've seen the press reports, but we have no confirmation of that.

                        ADM. MULLEN:  That's correct.  We've seen no confirmation whatsoever.

                        Q:  Mr. Secretary, could you give us your assessment of the situation on the ground?  How bad is it?  Can the rebels take Tripoli?  Are thousands dying?

                        SEC. GATES:  Well, the -- I think the honest answer, David, is that we don't know in that respect, in terms of the number of casualties.  In terms of the potential capabilities of the opposition, we're in the same realm of speculation, pretty much, as everybody else.  I haven't seen anything that would give us a better read on the number of rebels that have been killed than you have.  And I think it remains to be seen how effectively military leaders who have defected from Gadhafi's forces can organize the opposition in the country.  And we are watching that unfold, as you are.

            by xurxo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:31:17 AM EST
            We had a discussion of oil resources a month ago
            To what extent do the rebels control the oil resources in the Eastern half of the country? Can they use those resources for revenue? What are the economic prospects of the East in case of a protracted civil war?

            So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
            by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:55:15 AM EST
            Good questions.

            If we can believe news reports - and I think we can - there was a mass exodus of foreign oil workers out of Libya over the past four weeks.  This implies the oil fields and oil infrastructures are no longer operational no matter who "controls" them.

            Both sides can forward-contract oil sales, if they can find someone willing to purchase ... at a substantial discount, no doubt.  

            The situation is moving too fast, too unstable, for me to be able to make any sort of rational prediction. Both sides have economic resources, both sides are facing severe handicaps to mobilizing those resources.


            Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

            by ATinNM on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:37:49 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Ex-airforce chief says no UAE planes in Libya - The National

            ABU DHABI // The UAE is not deploying military forces to Libya because of disagreements with the west over Bahrain, the former commander of the Air Force said yesterday.

            Maj Gen Khaled al Bu-Ainnain said the disagreement stems from a conviction in the Gulf that Iran is interfering in Bahrain's affairs, and instigating protesters. He added that Bahrain's security is a priority for the Gulf and the UAE.

            The Gulf countries are certain that Iran is involved in the protests in Bahrain, he said.

            "The GCC is supporting Bahrain, and they were not happy at all with the European and American attitude," he said. "They think it's a matter of a civil movement, a matter of democracy. It is much beyond it."

            He continued: "What's going on in Bahrain is much beyond our western allies to understand it. It is a complete conspiracy of the Iranians in the region."

            Gen al Bu-Ainnain also said the main reason for the UAE's decision not to deploy troops to Libya is "because the Europeans and Americans in particular don't realise the amount of the threat available in Bahrain".



            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:22:23 PM EST
            He continued: "What's going on in Bahrain is much beyond our western allies to understand it. It is a complete conspiracy of the Iranians in the region."

            The Sunni dictatorships' version of Cold War mentality (when every resistance and reform movement was assumed to be a Soviet spy network in the West and a capitalist/counter-revolutionary/CIA outfit in the East). This can get ugly. Since the Shi'a are the majority in Bahrein, the toppling of the regime is only a matter of time there.

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.

            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:26:59 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Michael Markman (Mickeleh) on Twitter
            If UK and France led the push for the "no fly zone" and Obama went along, does that make him Cameron and Sarkozy's poodle?


            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:37:00 PM EST
            A lone swallow makes no summer.

            - Danish proverb

            Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

            by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 01:06:09 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            Cost of military campaign in Libya could wipe out GOP's spending cuts - TheHill.com

            U.S. military operations in Libya could wipe out a significant chunk of the budget cuts won by congressional Republicans in recent weeks, defense analysts say. 

            GOP leaders have trumpeted enacted spending reductions that amount to more than $285 million per day since the beginning of March. 



            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:18:46 PM EST
            Bahrain warns its citizens not to travel to Lebanon for safety reasons after Hezbollah comes out in support of protesters - Reuters

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 02:51:14 PM EST
            Vilifying Gaddafi externalises evil | Richard Seymour | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

            The air strikes on Libya are, under the terms of the UN resolution, supposedly intended to protect civilians and result in a negotiated settlement between Colonel Gaddafi and the rebels. This has resulted in some controversy, as air strikes devastated Gaddafi's compound - Bab El-Azizia, the presidential palace abutting military barracks in Tripoli. The defence secretary Liam Fox has insisted, against British army opposition, that Gaddafi would be a legitimate target of air strikes. Assassination, whatever else may be said about it, would leave Gaddafi unavailable for negotiations. But a "compound" - what could be wrong with bombing such a facility?

            In situations like this, the usual affective repertoire is unleashed. Gaddafi is a "Mad Dog", the Sun, the Mirror, the Star and the Daily Record inform us - an epithet first applied by Ronald Reagan when the latter bombed Gaddafi's compound, among other targets, in 1986. He is "barking mad", they say. Jon Henley in the Guardian went further - not just "barking mad", but "foaming at the mouth". "Cowardly Colonel Gaddafi," the Sun almost alliterated.



            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 03:36:14 PM EST
            France wants body outside NATO to head Libya fight, so Arab League countries can be included. -AP

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:32:26 PM EST
            self serving comment of the day

            @RumsfeldOffice: There's a reason Gadhafi isn't contemplating using a nuclear/radiological weapon today: He saw what happened to Saddam.

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:41:01 PM EST
            This is so twisted it had to be told across a neck twisted 720 degrees around.

            *Lunatic*, n.
            One whose delusions are out of fashion.
            by DoDo on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 05:05:52 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            @robcrilly: some of the rebels have very new looking AK-47s today. Shiny and they are covering the muzzles to keep dust ou

            Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
            by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 04:47:23 PM EST
            Possibilities:

            1.  They cleaned them.  (Gadzooks)

            2.  The reports of Egypt shipping small arms to the revolutionaries was accurate & this is evidence.


            Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
            by ATinNM on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 09:04:40 PM EST
            [ Parent ]
            First reports of ground attacks on regime forces in Eastern Libya.  

            Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
            by ATinNM on Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 09:10:45 PM EST
            A military stalemate was reached sooner than I hoped.  

            The regime has plenty of heavy weapons and the revolutionaries don't.  Until some kind of parity is achieved, or the revolutionaries learn advanced small unit tactics, they're going to sit outside Ajdabiya.

            Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

            by ATinNM on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 02:48:27 PM EST


            Display:
            Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]

            Top Diaries