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Elections in UK result thread

by A swedish kind of death Fri May 6th, 2011 at 12:18:26 PM EST

Since no-one that knows something about it has put up one. Results, discussions etc in the comments.

front-paged by afew


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BBC News - Scottish election: SNP surges to Holyrood majority

The Scottish National Party will form Scotland's first ever majority government after a stunning election victory.

The party has reached 65 seats in the 129-seat parliament, with some counts still to declare, taking key seats in Labour heartlands.

The Liberal Democrat vote also collapsed, with the party returning four MSPs so far.

The SNP now has enough Holyrood votes to hold an independence referendum.

Labour leader Iain Gray announced he would stand down from the job in the autumn.

SNP leader Alex Salmond, whose party formed a minority government after the 2007 elections, described the unfolding Holyrood election results as "historic".



A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:33:16 AM EST
BBC News - LIVE: Vote 2011
BREAKING NEWS: Scottish Labour Leader Iain Gray tells BBC Scotland he will stand down in the autumn after his party suffered a crushing defeat in the Holyrood elections.

See also European Tribune - The End of Labour in Scotland?

I believe that the forthcoming election will lead to the death of Labour in Scotland, and hopefully the birth of Scottish Labour.



A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:39:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gray had to go, he was widely criticised for Labour's collapse.

Leader's have to be visibly leading (Ed Milband should take note)

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:57:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anyone know what the EU's attitude would be toward Scottish independence?
by FoolsErrand on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:47:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm, I think most other EU countries would not care as such if the UK splits. Perhaps Spain and Belgium might see it as bad examples.

But the more interesting question is how a request to join the union from an independent Scotland would be treated (as it is the state of the UK, not its territory that are members today an independent Scotland would formally start outside the union (barring re-interpretation of rules)). Since Scotland would fulfill all requirements (legislation already in line with EU directives) the only thing that could keep it out is if some countries would try to block it.

So I guess it boils down to if the government in London would protest. Would it?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Surely it would be less of a problem that German unification, which brought in lots of new people to the union.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:06:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
this is presuming that anyone here from the UK actually knows much about it. :-))


keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:55:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I presume you know more then I have read at the BBC site in the last halfhour :)

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:00:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can contextualise some of the results more readily. But much of the time I'm reading the same stuff you are

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Scottish election: Live results and reaction
1603 Co-convener of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie, said he was disappointed that his party had only secured two MSPs. He said: "I would be lying if I tried to hide my disappointment. It looks like we are in for another five years of extremely hard work."


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:08:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With all votes counted this is the seat distribution:

SNP 69 (+23)
Labour 37 (-7)
Cons 15 (-5)
Lib-dems 5 (-12)
Others 3 (+1)

BBC News - Election 2011 - Scotland

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 12:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greens got two of the "Other" seats and the last is the Presiding Officer, elected by the parliament.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 12:47:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually the third other is Margo McDonald, an Independent who used to be quite prominent in the SNP.

The Speaker in the UK Parliament does not remain connected, in any way, with their former party. The Speaker seeks re-election as such, not using a party label.

However in the Scottish Parliament, the Presiding Officer is no longer counted with a party group when elected. I believe no Presiding Officer has yet been a candidate for re-election. I presume they would not use a party label in an election, but the custom may not yet have been clearly established as it has been in the UK Parliament.

by Gary J on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 11:14:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Vote 2011: Welsh Labour falls short of overall majority

Labour has fallen just short of an outright majority in the Welsh assembly after the final results came in from north Wales.

Labour has won 30 seats, but was unable to the 31st needed for an overall majority but is set to try to form a government.

The Conservatives took Aberconwy and Clwyd West, key Labour targets.

Tories lost their leader Nick Bourne, but did well otherwise. However, Plaid and the Lib Dems had a poor night.

Lib Dems finished behind the BNP in a number of seats.



A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:34:09 AM EST
Rumours of a Labour-libDem coalition. But I think InWales would have better knowledge on the implications

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Labour has ruled out any coalition with the Cons and rumours are that Plaid wouldn't wish to be in coalition with Labour again due to 'personal attacks' on the competency of Plaid's leader.  

Throughout the election we've stated we want a working majority so we can govern alone.  There is some talk of trying to govern with 30 but personally I think that would cause huge rows and is risky - you only need one AM to be ill and you can't get a vote through. So rumours are that there could be a coalition with the lib dems but I think the picture will be clearer next week.

It was an incredible night and we made some important and impressive gains, some very close indeed, like Cardiff Central which was gained from the lib dems with a majority of only 38.  

cross posted form my blog -

The results are in from North Wales, at the end of a very dramatic night of counts, knife edge marginals and superb performances for Welsh Labour. Whether or not we would get a majority was on a knife edge, we have 30 seats, rather than the 31 we hoped for. Nail biting, but what a brilliant night. Cardiff has turned red!

Full results on the BBC site here

I want to quickly pay tribute to the incredible campaign teams across Wales, from our HQ in Cardiff, to every local team of members that has gone out canvassing, leafleting and working unfailingly hard to get the vote out for Welsh Labour. It has been a wonderful experience to work alongside everyone and I'm going to miss the campaign massively when we are finished after today.

I've really enjoyed the privilege of working with Carwyn Jones, he's a great man and a brilliant politician, and I'm very proud that we have him as our party leader.

If you missed it, here is my article on WalesHome

and the Welsh Labour flickr site of campaign images here

Found various sleepy but happy newly elected AMs around the local pubs on my way home from watching the First Minister do his round of tv interviews this evening. All good stuff.  The next couple of weeks will be interesting to watch.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 04:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't find any results. Opinion polls looks like NO.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:35:52 AM EST
BBC News - Huhne suggests defeat over AV referendum campaign

Energy Secretary Chris Huhne suggests the Yes to alternative vote campaign has lost, just hours before the referendum result is due in.

Mr Huhne - one the most vocal Yes campaigners - told the BBC that "if the boxes are anything like what I've seen it doesn't look good for the Yes cause".

Polls suggest voters will reject a switch from first-past-the-post, to AV where candidates are ranked in order of preference.

The result is expected around 2000 BST.



A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:03:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to change the system, you have to do a darned sight better job of explaining why than the Yes2AV campaign managed. They were always behind the story instead of out in front, always distracted, never campaigning.

In fact, if it weren't for the No2AV adverts, nobody would even have known there was a referendum going on. And people were getting overpaid good money to run this sort of nonsense, whose side were they really on ?

And to cap it all, these supposedly professional campaigners seemed shocked to discover that tories (and David Blunkett) tell lies to achieve their ends, again and again and again. It's as TBG wrote in his diary

1. Reduce arguments to trite dog-whistle talking points - such as flip-flopper, tax-and-spend, "soft on defence", and so on.

2. Lie. Repeatedly, in public, with no moral consistency in their talking points.

If you accept that the purpose of politics is power, not integrity, neither of these becomes shocking.

Do they not pay attention ? Gah !!

I have to say I was disappointed that Labour seemed so half-hearted about campaigning. A bit of Ed Miliband here, a bit of Eddie Izzard there. But a poll reveals that 60% of Labour voters didn't know that Labour were in favour of reform, largely cos the only labour politicians we saw campaigning were John Reid, David Blunkett and Margaret Beckett, all of whom were on the No side.

If Labour really wanted AV to win, then they didn't really give much of a sign.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:12:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess you're right, but a question remains: how can one vote for first past the post? It's so obviously atrociously bad, probably the worst of all systems. Anything would be better. Yet lots of people actually bothered to go and cast a vote to keep it.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat May 7th, 2011 at 01:37:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Internally in the party I came across a few MPs who were proactive about encouraging party members to vote yes.  For our Welsh MPs the focus for their time was supporting Welsh Labour in the Assembly elections.  

Still I would have expected English Labour MPs to be more active on encouraging a yes vote, even though there was no party line as such.

Saw a comment on twitter that has been retweeted massively - "32% of people vote for AV and that's a rejection. 35% of people vote for the Tories and that's a 5 year mandate"

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat May 7th, 2011 at 05:32:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
4pm UK time.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:04:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The winning side needs 9.8 million votes, opinion polls recon it's about 2/3 trending No

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:55:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
AV referendum resullt - live blog | Politics | guardian.co.uk

4.51pm: The first AV referendum results are in. And it looks as if the pollsters are not going to have too much to worry about.

Here they are, from the Isles of Scilly

Yes 288 (34.70%)
No 542 (65.30%)
No maj 254 (30.60%)
Electorate 1,737; Turnout 830 (47.78%)

Perhaps it was a Scilly question?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:59:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 hearing that in one area it's in excess of 75% no

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 12:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Vote 2011: UK rejects alternative vote

UK voters have rejected a change to the voting system - a major blow to Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg after heavy election losses.

Counting continues but more than 9.8m people have voted to keep first-past-the-post, more than 50% of votes cast.

The No campaign is on course get a decisive 69% of the vote - leading AV campaigner Chris Huhne conceded the rejection had been "overwhelming".

As expected then.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 03:07:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still counting, but Conservatives appear stable, Lib-dems are falling and Labour rising.

BBC News - Vote 2011: Nick Clegg quit calls after council losses

Nick Clegg is facing calls from the party's local government chiefs to step down as leader after heavy losses in the English council elections.


A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:37:51 AM EST
BBC News - Vote 2011: BNP suffers council seat losses

The British National Party looks set to lose many of the seats it holds on local councils in England.

After 168 council election results, the anti-immigration party had won one seat with a net loss of nine councillors.

The BNP lost all five of its seats in Stoke-on-Trent, where it launched its election campaign in England, and one of its two councillors in Burnley.

The party, which has two MEPs elected in 2009, lost almost half its council seats in last year's local elections.



A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:59:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To be fair to Clegg, that was only from one councillor, the leader of Nottingham libdems, who was upset at losing his seat.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although he represents an area that I would think would have a strong Lib-Dem tendency.  

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:34:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
AV referendum and election results: live coverage | Politics | guardian.co.uk
* The Greens have won 23 seats on Brighton and Hove. That makes them the largest party, and it's the first time the Greens have won the most seats on any UK council. (Caroline Lucas, the Green leader, is MP for Brighton Pavilion.)


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:04:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hooray !!!!!

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:13:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Counting of votes for NI assembly elections under way

Counting is underway in the Northern Ireland assembly elections.

There is still no official turnout figure, but the percentage is predicted to be in the low to mid 50s.

This will be well down on both last year's Westminster election and the last assembly election four years ago.

Anything interesting happening there?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 10:40:30 AM EST
Ulster politics is a cultural and religious minefield. As none of the 3 main parties organise there (it's a discussion as to whether they should), it's irrelevant to Westminster

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:02:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Low Unionist turnout helping the nationalists.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 11:09:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
1721: That is all the results in: Final totals: SNP 69, Labour 37, Conservatives 15, Lib Dems 5, Scottish Greens 2, Independent 1

That's a reasonable working majority bearing in mid how fragmented the opposition is.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 12:33:29 PM EST
What's the SNP's views on Land Tax/Land Reform?  

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 01:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now ? Or after Chris has got at them ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 01:03:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point.  ;-)

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 01:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The answer is no chance of LVT under Salmond, who is firmly in the conventional financial services/property rights paradigm.

The reason that the pro corporate Scotsman and the Murdoch press went for the SNP was Salmond's evident sympathy for the Irish Celtic Tiger meme, and association with the likes of Reform Scotland and the 'Edinburgh Mafia' clique of financiers and professionals which still thinks it runs Scotland and is sniffing around 'fiscal devolution' ie corporate tax cuts and public sector 'reform'.

I think that Salmond might have difficulties within his own party in actually imposing any sort of austerity policy.

He's had a fairly easy ride so far thanks to the historic funding settlement and Swinney's astute policy of devolving financial decision making locally, so that the unpleasant decisions are not imposed top down.

But chickens - such as a five year Council tax freeze; no tuition fees; no prescription charges etc - are going to come home to roost, and neo-liberal policies offer no solution.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 01:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...Irish Celtic Tiger meme

You mean: borrow a shit-pile of money and piss it away in non-productive economic activity having no hope of ever being able to pay it back?

WOW!  What a GREAT idea!

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 01:52:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're going to spend it on something totally unproductive, you might as well have no way of paying back. Otherwise, you will be asked to do so more strongly.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat May 7th, 2011 at 01:49:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From the manifesto, page 40:

Rural Development:

We also want to see an expansion of the mutual model in rural Scotland and will support the creation of rural co-operative, including local energy co-operatives to enable communities to take forward their own local renewables projects.  We will make the case for further devolution [whatever that means - AT] in this area to enable a more rapid expansion of co-operatives in rural Scotland.

Economic revitalization of rural areas depends on grabbing as much of the 'final consumer pound' as possible.  Co-operatives is a known way (see Denmark) to achieve that goal.  OK. cool.  

What's not so cool is a drive to increase tourism - not quoted.  Tourism, I can state from experience, is a lousy business to be in.  

Land Reform:

We believe it is time for a review of Scotland's land reform legislation.  For example, we believe the current period of three months for communities to take advantage of their right of first purchase is too short, and we would wish to se it extended to six months.

feh  Doesn't go near far enough.  Out of 19.46 million acres 1,700 entities own 9.something million.  On the face of it, too few owning/controlling too much.  

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 01:47:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Caledonian Mercury: The time for the independence referendum is now

The Caledonian Mercury is politically neutral. The Caledonian Mercury does not endorse any viewpoint over another. The Caledonian Mercury is a forum to celebrate all the voices of Scotland.

The Caledonian Mercury does not have a position Scottish independence.

But I do.

I support Scottish independence. And I want to write about it - as an individual journalist, not as Editor of The Caledonian Mercury - because there are so few pro-independence voices in the media. Those of us who believe the Scottish people are capable of governing themselves have a duty to speak up. Indeed, the anti-independence attacks have started already.

Alex Salmond has called for an end to "fearmongering, negativity and scaremongering" and insults to the intelligence of the people of Scotland.

Aye, guid luck wi' that, Eck.

The SNP should force through the independence referendum right now. (continues)



"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 02:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't been following the debate on Scottish independence so I can't comment directly.  

I do note the pro-independence side has a major question they need to consider:

What is the SNP's position on the Crown lands?  Those are the Big Wahoonie - IIRC - of land ownership in Scotland.  As long as HRH is Head of State and privileged vis-a-vis the other economic entities - especially local land users - rural economic activity, and how much that activity positively affects the rest of the Scottish economy, will not substantially change.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 02:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Crown Estate is a bit of a red herring since the revenues in fact go to the Treasury not Mrs Windsor, who has a separate, much smaller, private estate.

But there is an ongoing initiative to ensure that control of the Crown Estate in Scotland - where the marine foreshore is increasingly valuable thanks to renewables - is devolved through the appointment of a dedicated Scottish Crown Commissioner so that more of the revenues remain in Scotland.

The bigger picture is the completely iniquitous distribution of property in Scotland - which puts the average banana republic to shame. The Community Right to Buy - despite being heavily nobbled from the start - has nevertheless made some progress, but is currently limited to rural areas, and is totally under-funded.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 02:51:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaking as an outsider ...

In a way it's a herring of redness.  In another ... it goes to the heart of the matter. Lizzy may, or may not, directly own/control the land but she is the Poster Posh example of a deep-dog serious Scottish problem:  absentee landlordism locking locals out.  It's been 35 years since I talked/studied with the Single Taxers but, as I recall, Scotland was The Horrible Example of land use law and policies gone wrong.  

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 03:15:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I understand this correctly, this is a legacy of Union with England in the 18th century. The Scottish nobility got a green light to ship their population to the New World at an ever increasing pace and they could move to London.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 04:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I recall it was more a matter of kicking the crofters out and replacing them with sheep so the nobility could move to London.

Immigration to various Imperial lands was an "externality."

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 04:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They were a bothersome nuisance and the nobility had wanted them out of the way so they could run sheep more efficiently. This had been an ongoing problem, "enclosure" since the late middle ages. Thomas More described "sheep that eat men" in Utopia. In the 18th century the Scottish nobility hired ships to transport the crofters to the New World. Only some of the 'Scotts-Irish' came from Northern Ireland.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 06:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As much fun as an independence referendum would be, it isn't going to happen. The Scottish parliament does not have the powers to introduce one. Legally it can only do things delineated by the powers devolved to it. The power to do anything that would effect the UK constitution is expressly not devolved to the Scottish parliament, and removing Scotland would definitely alter the UK constitution.

If the Scots Nats produce a bill, the presiding officer has  to withdraw it from being laid before parliament, The only way it can happen is if the UK government agrees and votes it through the UK parliament. and the chance of Smiling Daves mob losing all that possible oil seems rather slim


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 05:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw Cameron earlier on BBC's webcast saying that if Scotland decides to hold a referendum he would campaign for a no. Sounds to me like they will not challenge it.

As I see it, if you are right, SNP could elect a presiding officer that interprets the devoluation as allowing an advisory referendum, and the Scottish authorities could move on to hold a referendum. If the result is a yes, then the Scottish parliament declares independence. If any step is challenged in court the Scottish government needs only to stall and continue with its actions. An independent Scotland will not fall under UK jurisdiction anyway.

The UK government can at any time stop this by sending in the troops, closing the Scottish parliament and turning it into another type of conflict. But I do not think that would happen.

In general assemblies that declare independence does not have a legal right to do so within the previous state. The crucial point is if they are believed to have the moral right.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 05:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Land reform needs more than that. People need permission to build in the highlands, they should set up something similar to the homesteading thing where people buy land they intend to run as a smallholding (5 - 10 acres) then they should be allowed to build a home on that.

I'm sure you can have strong legislative controls on definitions of intent to smallhold and size of house to ensure that it isn't abused but right now the Highlands are pickled in 19th century aspic as a playground for country gentry to shoot upon. And this is land that once held a huge rural population

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 03:14:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Small holdings aren't economically viable UNLESS they are producing a high value crop or crops they can sell direct to consumer.  This is one of the big advantages of co-operatives: the co-op can 'bundle' and market the goods.  In turn this reduces the marketing/sales costs to the producer and allows the producer to 'capture' the middlemen profit either directly or through ownership shares of the co-op.  

Add a credit union, somewhere along the way, and now you're talking.

BTW, I have no illusions about the moral superiority of co-ops or credit unions.  These organizations do, however, provide a maximum return to and for the people who create the wealth while giving them a chance - whether it is seized or not - of having more control over their lives.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 03:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't disagree, but a small holding can, in the cool temperate climate of Scotland, at least provide sufficient food and power for a family to live comfortably.

It may not be a varied diet, but with a little jiggery pokery, and co-ops help a lot to spread the load, a good living can be had. But the locality has to be willing to allow houses to be built - and more than those completely useless "crofts" which is simply 16th century technology

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 04:01:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe Norway has some rule against absentee ownership of rural properties, demanding the owner to live there.

Åland island also has a ban on absentee ownership, though I believe that is only allowed within the EU due to a special deal when Finland joined the EU.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 04:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Norwegian Land Act of 1995 can be found here.

Chapter IV. Protection of cultivated and cultivable land, etc.
Section 8. Protection of cultivated land

All cultivated land that can provide a basis for profitable operations shall be maintained.

The municipality 1 and the County Governor may prohibit measures that may result in poor maintenance of cultivated land. The municipality shall make recommendations concerning measures that should be implemented if land is poorly maintained or remains unused.

if the Ministry 2 finds that cultivated land is poorly maintained or unused, it may issue an order to the owner or lessee regarding the measures he shall implement in order that the land may be cultivated profitably, under the circumstances. The owner may also be ordered to lease out the land for a period of not more than ten years.

In the case of cultivated land that cannot provide a basis for profitable operations, the Ministry 2 may order that forests be planted on the land, or that measures beneficial to the cultural landscape be taken.

if the order has not been complied with upon expiry of the time-limit, the Ministry' may enter into an agreement that the land be leased out for a period of not more than ten years or make a decision to expropriate parts or all of the property in order to transfer it to others.

Orders may be issued on such conditions as are necessary for achieving the purposes of this Act.

1 Cfsection3.

2 Ministry of Agriculture pursuant to resolution no.413 of 12 May 1995
Section 9. Use of cultivated and cultivable land

Cultivated land must not be used for purposes that do not promote agricultural production. Cultivable land must not be disposed of in such a way as to render it unfit for agricultural production in the future.

The Ministry may in special cases grant an exemption if, after an overall evaluation of the circumstances, it finds that the agricultural interests should not have~priority. In so deciding, account shall be taken, among other things, of approved plans pursuant to the Planning and Building Act 1, operational or environmental disadvantages for agriculture in the area, the cultural landscape and the benefit to society that would result from land being disposed of for another purpose. Account shall also be taken of whether the land can be restored to agricultural production. The presentation of alternative solutions may be required.

Consent to dispose of land for another purpose may be given on such conditions as are necessary for achieving the purposes of this Act.

The exemption shall lapse if efforts to use the land for the purpose in question have not commenced within three years after the decision was made.

The Ministry 2 may order that illegal installations or buildings be removed.

Don't know what this all means in practice.


Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 05:05:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like a start, but if the EU require special dispensations then it seems that corporate control is preferred

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 05:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only about 5% of Norway is farmland with most of that in the Trøndelag.  So little arable land in the country has caused them to be protective of what they've got.  

And rightly so.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 05:51:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of my fathers Monday Night drinking mates failed by 60 votes to overturn one of the local Tory councillors

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri May 6th, 2011 at 08:03:04 PM EST
bummer

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Sat May 7th, 2011 at 12:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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