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Explosion [And Mass Shooting] In Oslo

by ceebs Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:01:18 AM EST

news coming in of a huge explosion at the building housing the prime ministers office in Oslo

Picture here

Reports of injuries, this doesn't look good.

[UPDATE 23 July by afew] As many as 80 young members of the Labour Party were shot dead on an island where they were holding a summer congress by a man posing as police sent to guarantee security after the bomb attack. A man of 32 was arrested last night. An extreme-right anti-Islamic nationalist, his name, according to leaks, is Anders Behring Breivik. The bombing, in which 7 died, is suspected to be also his work.


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Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 09:51:49 AM EST
Another view

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johsgrd/5964147932/

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
another too large to include

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174138/17413824/jpg/active/978x_13197743.jpg

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:28:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Video of what is purported to be a second explosion.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
seen lots of denials of a second bomb, and one report that reports of a second bomb was a large badly damaged wall and window collapsing rather than a bomb

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, why I wrote "purported."

And the Guardian has removed the link "because the video appears to be fake."

So: ignore

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:54:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter report from the scene

Lise Sand (Lise_79) on Twitter

Lise_79 Lise Sand Police says we don't need to evacuate the building. We have the parliament on one side, the town hall on the other :P » Lise_79 Lise Sand A bomb. Un-fucking-believable. 6 minutes ago » Lise_79 Lise Sand This is not a joke. Yes, I'm in Oslo. I saw the explosion. 7 minutes ago » Lise_79 Lise Sand The police has parked just outside our office block, shouting 'leave the city centre'... 8 minutes ago » Lise_79 Lise Sand VG, one of the main tabloids, have had their building affected. Not sure how badly. They're not updating their website... Evacuated, prob. 10 minutes ago » Lise_79 Lise Sand The whole area is evacuated. Sirens everywhere. The police are worried that there might be more bombs. 11 minutes ago » Lise_79 Lise Sand It's right next to the government offices. It's in Oslo's 'fleet street' as well. 12 minutes ago » Lise_79 Lise Sand Our windows shook, and we could actually feel the shake. 13 minutes ago » Lise_79 Lise Sand I could see explosion behind Grand Hotel from my office window. Materials hurled into the air. 14 minutes ago » Lise_79 Lise Sand Omg. Explosion in Oslo city centre. There's actually been a bomb that's gone off.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 09:57:57 AM EST
Reuters: Explosion rocks central Oslo, Norway PM's office
A huge explosion damaged government buildings in central Oslo on Friday including Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg's office, injuring several people, a Reuters witness said.


Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 09:59:56 AM EST
RT @chaglen: Bomb in Oslo, Norway - this is undoubtedly one of the worst days in Norwegian history. http://twitvid.com/RQNBF

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:05:08 AM EST
Twitter / @journodave: AFP are reporting the expl ...
AFP are reporting the explosion took place in offices of Norway's largest tabloid. #Oslo


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:10:22 AM EST
@Lise_79
VG, one of the main tabloids, have had their building affected. Not sure how badly. They're not updating their website... Evacuated, prob.
half an hour ago...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:14:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
PM reported as being OK according to links to Aftenposten

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:12:43 AM EST
Scene after explosion from NRK



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:15:05 AM EST
@AJELive Norwegian prosecutors on Tuesday filed terrorism charge against founder of the Kurdish Islamist group Ansar al-Islam, #Oslo

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:17:42 AM EST
That means they don't have shit. Picking up some random brown people is the terrorism equivalent of saying "we have lots of hair and fiber samples from the murder scene."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Disagreement about whether it's multiple explosions

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:23:11 AM EST
AP: Norwegian broadcaster NRK reports at least one person killed in Oslo explosion

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 10:47:15 AM EST
One death confirmed in Oslo explosion, but pictures from the scene suggest the death toll will be higher.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:17:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could be far-right terrorist attack, says expert on BBC.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:03:55 AM EST
Norwegian TV says it cannot be confirmed if it is a bomb or an accident (possible gas explosion).
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:07:56 AM EST
Bomb now confirmed, it seems
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:10:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC reporting 2 people now confirmed dead


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:14:43 AM EST
saying oil and gas ministry was the apparent target

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:17:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dagbladet front page.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:26:26 AM EST
NRK live feed here

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:28:31 AM EST
Early report saying the bomb was located in Youngstorget Square and the damage was multiplied by the shock wave reverberating off the buildings.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:36:18 AM EST
Death toll expected to rise.

Reports people may be trapped in buildings (source BBC.)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:43:43 AM EST
Norwegian TV2 reporting 3 people arrested in Oslo.  Also reporting a car is surrounded near/at the airport.  Don't know if this is two different situations or one.

Eyewitness report police arrested a man shortly before the explosion.

Police are requesting people not use their cell phones in and around downtown Oslo.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:51:41 AM EST
reports of possibly two more bombs in city centre

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bomb exploded after work, during the holidays.  Either the bombers wanted to limit deaths and casualties or they were afraid their organization had been compromised and did it before they were arrested.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:03:29 PM EST
Or it was a diversion from the real hit on the youth camp?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There appears to have been co-ordinated attacks with the bomb in Oslo and on the island.  

The police may have prevented one, perhaps two, other attacks.

Situation still too fluid, information too sketchy, to be able to say with any certainty.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:26:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @LudditeWebDev: FFS. Citizen journalism on ...
FFS. Citizen journalism on Twitter better. "We can hear the Norwegians talking whatever language it is they speak there." Kay Burley #quote


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:03:46 PM EST
Reports of "wild shooting" near a summer camp near Oslo.

Police requesting people stay at home.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:12:34 PM EST
Tweet:  A man disguised as a police officer is reported to have opened fire at Norske Arbeiderpartiet's youth camp on Utøya - a few hours away from Oslo.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:16:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How do they know that he was disguised and wasn''t a real polce officer?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ack.

I should have written, "dressed as a police officer."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:49:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's hope it was a disguise - real police officers usually aim a lot better than random skinheads.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
New info (Source: Guardian Live Blog)

According to David Berry, from the department of Political Studies at Swansea University, on NRK in the last few minutes they interviewed the head of police in Oslo and he stated that the gunman was NOT wearing a police uniform, rather a blue jumper which had a Norwegian police badge or sign on it. He also confirmed that the suspect had never worked for the police.



She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was a summer camp for Social Democratic youth according to Norwegian news. According to the Guardian the Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg was there at the time.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Putting the pieces together:

an attack on the Norske Arbeiderpartiet?  (whose national headquarters are at the bomb site.)

Explain why the attack took place at the time it did.  


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The attendance of the Prime Minister has not been confirmed, nor even addressed, by NRK.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:29:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Standard procedure.  The PM is now in a secure location and the police, etc., will be knowledge of where he is secret.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hope this is old data:

TV 2: shooting w/ automatic weapons at Utøya youth camp. Ambulances can't reach them due to ongoing shooting.

Early reports the shooter or shooters were using handguns.  Now reports of automatic weapons being used to shoot kids attempting to swim off the island.

What kind of diseased mind deliberately shoots kids to make a political statement???

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian:

There are 700 people on the island camp. At 5.20 pm ambulance personnel were told not to proceed out to the island because there was still shooting there. One Labour youth member tweeted: "We are sitting down by the beach. A man is shooting clothed in a police uniform. Help us! When are the police coming to help us!"

Police stormtroopers are about to land on Utoya island from helicopters. Shooting still going on. Eyewitness describes shooting from his position on the mainland: "There is a little war going on out there"



She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:58:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SKY Reports: Four people killed during shooting at ruling Labour party youth meeting on Utoya Island, Norway

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reports police now have the man in custody.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Arrested man is blond, nordic and about 1.90 CM accourding to TV2

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Police: "Shooting at Utøya was 'probably' related to the bombings" and "One man arrested."

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:24:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @clq: Unconfirmed eye-witness re ...
Unconfirmed eye-witness reports from Utøya: Police have shot a suspect.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:47:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It could go either way.  

If if was a "home grown" group one would expect the person to look Norwegian.

If it WAS an Islamic terrorist attack - and there's ZERO evidence for that at this time! - they would hardly send a swarthy man, wearing a keffiyeh, saying, "I'm here to ensure your safety, insha Allah"

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one has claimed this yet?
by rifek on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:59:48 PM EST
No creditable reports of such, yet.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Police: At least 7 dead, at least two seriously injured in Oslo bombings.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:39:54 PM EST
Death toll is bound to rise given the destruction of the buildings.  Flying glass and spalling will have created a death zone in the offices facing the blast.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 01:44:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
RT @ketilbstensrud: LATEST: Eye-witness on Utøya LIVE on NRK just said that he saw 20-30 dead youths floating by the shore. Shocking.
JonathanHaynes Just now

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 02:29:09 PM EST
Norwegian press: there were several shooters on the island.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 02:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh.

Shit.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 02:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
not heard that anywhere else though

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 02:52:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to solveig there is a story going around in the Swedish and Danish press of a video warning/threat of an attack in Norway which is no longer on-line.

Whoever was in that video spoke Polish, and the Norwegian press never ran the story.

She reckons what has happened could well be a piece of domestic lunacy directed at the Labour party.

Maybe Tim McVeigh style.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 03:05:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It might be this. But one Polish response claims it is a fake and that the owner changed the date.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 03:57:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian Live Blog:

9.07pm: On Twitter runehak, who works for the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation, says:

News agency NTB says police do NOT think this is international terrorism.

and then

Nationen also writes police think its a local variant directed at the current political system.

Apparently the man arrested on the island has a anti-government history.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:24:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
link to photo from twitter.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Oslo bomb - latest updates
2100:

Acting Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim in Oslo says the shooter had also been spotted in the capital prior to the explosions.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:11:23 PM EST
Ida Aalen (idaaa) on Twitter
@fmanjoo @techsoc @jeffjarvis Police says they do NOT believe it is international terrorism; but local aimed at political establ. Source NTB

Ida Aalen (idaaa) on Twitter

@techsoc police says they "know" the "grouping"/subculture/clique (=miljø) he belongs to.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:21:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Beginning to look like a 'home-grown' operation.  Maybe a lone nut.  Maybe had some help.

With the guy in custody it now becomes a straight-forward police investigation.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:25:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
police says they "know" the "grouping"/subculture/clique (=miljø) he belongs to.

Translation: We would like to round up his drinking buddies as well, but can't prove they actually did anything illegal.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
H'mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Don't know anything of Norwegian Criminal Law.  In the US his miljø would be investigated and, if the man had been talking about his plan to the others, they could be prosecuted as Accessories Before the Fact and depending on the evidence Co-Conspirators.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point taken. Make that "can't prove they actually did anything illegal. Yet."

Still, talking about the plan is not in and of itself sufficient in the eyes of Scandinavian law - the people he talked with about it would have to believe that he was serious about it. If they did not believe that he was serious about it and they reported it, they would be breaking the law by making frivolous reports of criminal activity.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No argument from me.

A quick scan of my posts on ET will reveal I've made over-the-top remarks so I wouldn't want to get into a position where every statement is automatically assumed to be evidence of intent to commit terrorism/murder.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Death toll now seventeen: seven in Oslo, nine or ten on the island.

CTV Calgary- Oslo police link camp shooting suspect to bombing - CTV News

Oslo police say they suspect the man arrested in a deadly shooting at a youth camp that killed at least nine people is also linked to the bombing that rocked the Norwegian capital earlier Friday, killing seven.

Acting Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim won't give any details about the man, who was dressed in a police uniform when he opened fire Friday on Utoya, an island just outside the capital, where the youth wing of the ruling Labor Party was holding an event for hundreds of youths.

Police say nine or 10 people were killed in the shooting and that the suspect had been observed in Oslo before the explosion there.

However:

An early, unconfirmed report put the death much higher. An eyewitness told Norwegian broadcaster NRK that he saw 20 to 25 bodies on the shore and that there were more bodies in the water.

Too early too tell what is what exactly, but this is bad enough.

by Bernard on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the press conference, the Justice Minister confirmed the man arrested is Norwegian.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin
by Crazy Horse on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 04:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in police press conference after the political one they said apparently to expect more bodies

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 05:57:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
@Terence_Hughes NRK reporting #Oslo bomber link to known rightwing domestic group http://t.co/K72Hrrt Oklahoma city meets Norway

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 06:17:44 PM EST
We have a name and a twitter account.

Far-right. Already talk about the Norwegian Timothy McVeigh...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 07:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And thus we have a face.
by Nomad on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 07:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The single tweet is a J.S. Mill quote.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 07:55:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More about Anders B. Breivik, soon to be poster-child for every crazed nationalist, islamophobe or xenophobe fuckwit in the European continent - and surely beyond:

UPDATE: vg.no reports: In online debates he makes his mark as a well-read, and one with strong opinions about Norwegian politics. He promotes a very conservative opinions, which he also called nationalist. He expresses himself strongly opposed to multiculturalism - that cultural differences can live together in a community. In one of the posts he states that politics today no longer revolves around socialism against capitalism, but that the fight is between nationalism and internationalism. He expressed clear support for the nationalist mindset. He also commented on the Swedish news articles, where he makes it clear that he believes the media have failed by not being "NOK" Islam-critical.


The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 08:08:19 PM EST


Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 08:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This could be the shooter's income/wealth of the past years. Apparently this kind of information is public in Norway.

And his family (?) owns a ... fruit and veg shop? (Not certain, just been searching for a bit.)

by Nomad on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 08:13:05 PM EST
According to this, Breivik himself owned and ran Brevik Geofarm. For 'Growing of vegetables, melons, roots and tubers'.

And perhaps for collecting fertilizer on the side.

by Nomad on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 08:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
@stacyherbert  piece on anti-Islam site condemning gov for not condemning the 'terrorist' that turned out to be them http://t.co/e2yzJoV

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 08:35:58 PM EST
REUTERSFLASH Norwegian police say at least 80 killed in shootings at Utoeya

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 09:55:11 PM EST
That would make it the worst single terrorist attack on Scandinavian soil since the War. Possibly since the Stockholm Massacre.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Utøya is a small island:

surrounded by water.  Once the bastard had made it on the island it was like shooting ducks in a barrel.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 12:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Labour's summer camp opens : Views and News from Norway

Around 1,000 young supporters of Norway's Labour Party were making their way over to Utøya this week, an island in the Tyrifjord that's often viewed as an incubator for future Labour Party leaders. Detractors call it a breeding ground for a relatively small clique of would-be power mongers.

The summer camp for members of Labour's youth group AUF (Arbeidernes ungdomsfylking) has launched the political careers of many a Labour Party leader. Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg was a fixture at the camp in his youth and remains keen to visit every summer. Both he, Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre and former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland were due to make appearances at this year's camp during its five-day run that began Wednesday.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 01:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There were reports that kids were being shot while trying to swim away.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 02:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anders Behring Breivik Identified As Suspect In Norway Shooting

The 32-year-old Norwegian man who allegedly went on a shooting spree on the island of Utoya has been identified as Anders Behring Breivik, according to multiple reports.

The Daily Mail and Sky News were among those to report the suspect's name. According to witnesses, the gunman was dressed as a police officer and gunned down young people as they ran for their lives at a youth camp.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 01:15:06 AM EST
Analysis: Questions over far-right link in Norwegian attacks | Reuters

(Reuters) - A report that Norway's bomb and gun rampage may be the work of a far-right militant confronts Europe with the possibility that a new paramilitary threat is emerging, a decade after al Qaeda's September 11 attacks.

One analyst called the attacks possibly Europe's "Oklahoma City" moment, a reference to American right-wing militant Timothy McVeigh who detonated a truck bomb at a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people.

Police forces in many western European countries worry about rising far-right sentiment, fueled by a toxic mix of anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant bigotry and increasing economic hardship.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 01:29:37 AM EST
"New" paramilitary threat?

In which fictional alternative universe is right-wing assassinations a new and surprising development? The only thing about this massacre that doesn't fit the bog-standard post-war right-wing assassination pattern is that he went after a large number of mid-value targets rather than a few high-value targets (Palme, Dutschke, Kennedy, MLK, etc.).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:05:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He could have caught Gro Harlem Brundtland and/or Stoltenberg depending on the timing of the attack.

I am focusing on this

[Utøya's] detractors call it a breeding ground for a relatively small clique of would-be power mongers.
regarding the motivation for the choice of targets. Also, it's a perfect way to strike terror into the hearts of Labour sympathisers. And the bombs in the city centre were a perfect diversion of attention and first responders away from the real target.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:56:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The only thing about this massacre that doesn't fit the bog-standard post-war right-wing assassination pattern is that he went after a large number of mid-value targets rather than a few high-value targets

Hm, I don't know about that. The OAS terror campaign to break the Evian agreements, Bologna station bombing, Oklahoma bombing, Baruch Goldstein's massacre in the Cave of the Patriarchs, the Oktoberfest attack in Munich, David Copeland's nail bomb attacks in London, Austria's Franz Fuchs the letter bomber, the Gypsie killers in Hungary, the Nijvel gang in Belgium, the Shankill Butchers in Northern Ireland, any number of lethal skinhead attacks on immigrants and minorities and homeless? If we go beyond nominal right/left and include nominally leftist extreme nationalists, there are also the acts of ETA or splinters of the IRA.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 08:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would argue that most of these are attacks on large numbers of low-value targets (that is, ordinary civilians of no particular political affiliation). Going after party activists in addition (or even in preference) to the leadership is a new development.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:22:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would argue that most of these are attacks on large numbers of low-value targets

I wanted to argue that the bog-standard post-war right-wing assassination pattern is to hit on mid- or low-value rather than high-value targets. As for a distinction between low and mid value target, looking at examples other than indiscriminate killings (Algeria, Bologna, Munich), do you think that from the racists' point of view, party activists are of higher value than people of the wrong colour of skin or ethnic group or religion?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If terror and a strategy of tension is the aim, yes.

At the Bologna or Oslo level, racist extremists aren't out to terrorize immigrants (there are skinheads for that), but the intelligent, well-meaning elements of society they would like to shake out of the tree.

The aim of the Oslo attacks (whether one-man or group-organized) is to disrupt the apparent solidity of social institutions and interaction.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently Breivik wrote that
once you decide to strike, it is better to kill too many than not enough, or you risk reducing the desired ideological impact of the strike. Explain what you have done (in an announcement distributed prior to operation) and make certain that everyone understands that we, the free peoples of Europe, are going to strike again and again.


Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 10:10:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You also shouldn't discount the simple numerical impact of losing a hundred members of your youth organisation. If he had gone after the smaller coalition partner, he would have pretty much wiped out the core of their next generation. That would have been crippling a few years down the road. With the SocDems he bit off more than he could chew in that department, though.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 01:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A kill ratio of 100 to 1 is pretty good in the political warfare department...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 01:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not if your targets outnumber you by a thousand to one.

Organisational and institutional depth can't be circumvented by any single act of direct action. Which is why the first rule of successful direct action is to stay alive and at large - something you very nearly automatically forfeit if you start deliberately killing people in a modern industrial society with proper statistical services and forensic experts.

This is why political assassinations, aside from being fundamentally morally repugnant, are strategically unsound. Unless you are operating in either a very favourable media environment or a police state where a dissident's chance of remaining alive and at large is not materially affected by killing people, because dissidents are hunted with greater diligence than murderers in the first place.

Neither the left nor the right in Norway meets any of these objective criteria, even if one were deranged enough to believe that the Norwegian constitution is sufficiently repugnant to merit assassination as a political tactic. Which latter claim is, in case it needs to be said, crazy talk.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Daily Kos: At least 84 dead in Norway shooting.
Active on many net forums, a strong opponent of multiculturalism and immigration.

He referred to Gro Harlem Brundtland, a former Norwegian prime minister, as "nation murderrer Brundtland" in all his references to her name, using the Norwegian landsmo(r)deren Brundtland. Inserting the r there changes the word from nation-mother to nation murderer.

He was of the belief that the Norwegian Labor Party, dominant political party since WWII, was working to destroy Norway by allowing and promoting multiculturalism. He lauded Japan and South Korea for their ability to "keep their nations pure".

He's a conservative Christian and freemason, with alleged ties to right-wing extremist circles in Norway. The action has been planned for a long time - in 2009 he established a eco-agriculture company, that allowed him to buy the quantities of fertilizer required to build the bomb.

His postings on facebook (now down) and twitter, indicate that the decision was taken on July 17. On that day, the leading Norwegian daily had an article with the heading: "Utøya - the glue of the labor movement".

Utøya is the name of the island where he murdered and wounded an unfathomable number of children and youths. The police are stating at least 80 killed on the island, there are at least as many wounded, and many still missing, presumed to have drowned while trying to escape.

(I'm in Norway)



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 04:54:03 AM EST
Daily Kos: At least 84 dead in Norway shooting.

Gro Harlem Brundtland, former Norwegian prime minister and leading international politician, was at Utøya on the day of the shootings, but left the island an hour before the shooter appeared there.

She was addressing the young political activists. The sitting prime minister was scheduled to appear on the island on Saturday.

There is speculation that he had planned to attack the seat of government, and then attack the island while Mrs. Brundtland was there.

He was cold and methodical as he carried out his killing spree - the tales told by survivors are horrifying.

It is alleged that the shooter years ago lauded the two Columbine shooters in comments on the net forum of another leading Norwegian newspaper - it is not confirmed that the nick used there is his, but the comments by that writer match his many other comments on other forums.

nick peewee in the newspaper VG:
http://vgd.no/...

"If you don't use your majorities, you lose your majorities."

by SteinL on Fri Jul 22, 2011 at 11:51:49 PM PDT



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 04:55:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 1930s were not only a decade of economic hardship, but of political violence.

This guy was not just an "anti-islam nationalist". He was an "anti-internationalist" nationalist. His enemy was not so much the external threat of Islam or what-not, but the internal threat of a political class committed to a liberal, open and inclusive state. That's why he targeted not just the sitting Social Democrat government, but the "breeding ground of future Labour leadership". With 80 dead, he may have actually succeeded in decimating the younger ranks of the Social Democratic Youth and this may have an impact in the leadership of the Social Democratic Youth in the next decade and the Labour party leadership further down the line.

Things are going to get really ugly because any crackdown is going to be criticised by business interests and their friendly press as illiberal and a danger to democracy. Meanwhile, in Europe as a whole the "centre-right" continues its march to hegemony and its destruction of the economic basis of prosperity while encouraging right-wing populism as an outlet for workers' discontent.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 05:14:37 AM EST
With 80 dead, he may have actually succeeded in decimating the younger ranks of the Social Democratic Youth and this may have an impact in the leadership of the Social Democratic Youth in the next decade and the Labour party leadership further down the line.

You underestimate the depth and professionalism of the SocDem party organisation. The casualties so far reported are not in and of themselves crippling - the real effect will depend on which lesson the survivors learn: Whether it galvanises them into an uncompromising destroy-the-right-wing-and-take-no-prisoners stance or it makes them want to heal-the-national-wounds. The former would be useful, the latter would kill the party stone dead.

Too early to say which way they'll jump just yet.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:11:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One could expect this horror to galvanize the Soc Dems.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:41:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One could expect it to galvanize the youth organization, but maybe Stoltenberg and the rest of the adults will go for healing the national wounds...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That depends on who they view as their enemy. As long as they view the parliamentary right wing in terms of genial collegiality, it will not galvanise them in any meaningful way. If they understand that this was a right-wing hit, not (just) a lunatic with a gun, they might actually be useful.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is all horrific and scary...especially when it happened in Norway (country rich and peaceful).Poor people...
But also I do not understand what political party has to do with 14 years old kids, let alone make camp and brain wash them at that early age. I remember eastern style socialism very well and how we all had to become members of "PIONEERS" at the age of 7.As one progressed in school he was pushed to join communist party. Kids have nothing to do with political parties.
Now does anyone have any other theory of what happened but one about lunatic doing this on his own or Islamists...?


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:53:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So I guess churches are okay organizing youth camps and boy scout groups but political parties aren't...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:56:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not know what to answer here...When kids gather around church it is mostly because their parents are pushing them...Are this kids there with their own free will or again parents have a role in it? Or  is it just convenient to party for free ( and being " corrupted" later pay with your political orientation)?
I am just sensitive when poor kids are pushed around because I lived trough "socialism" where we as kids had to adore dictator more than our mum. On the other hand I have even less sympathy for "young conservatives" especially because when you are young as they say : if you are not leftist then you do not have heart...( and when you are old and you are leftist you do not have brain, haha...that's what they say, not me...) As you all know I am kind of religious person but I never pushed my children to be religious...and I am not pushing my grandchild even if I take her to church sometimes to play with kids. I am political "animal" but also I wouldn't push my child to share same political views with me. All tho we can argue about politic...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It may not be that parents force children to attend church groups, necessarily. Often the strongest community group in an area is centered around the church. Where I was growing up, the only 'scout' band in my naighbourhood was run from the local parish church. I wasn't at all gregarious but my sister did join the scouts like many of her schoolmates. What tends to happen is that the less religiously oriented people end up leaving the group. Other strong communities are organised around unions, especially the Communist Union CCOO, and political parties. People in the organization form strong commnity bonds and organize events for groups of adults and their children, and later youth camps are a natural development. The only camp I even attended was organised by the regional government, but every community group likes to organize events both for group cohesion and as a fundraiser.

Indoctrination-oriented activities are much rarer, but they happen, though they are usually associated with more cult-like organizations. Mainstream organizations from the Catholic Church to the Communist trade unions don't actually feel the need to behave in a cult-like manner precisely because they are mainstream (whose existence is accepted by society at large, even by those who don't share its values or goals).

I do not know what to answer here...
Life is complicated...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 07:00:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This may be less what we might understand by "summer camp" (an Americanism immediately used by the media) and more a rally or meeting. If it had been a rock festival teenagers were camping out at, would we be calling it a "summer camp"? But I don't know how long it was meant to last - perhaps those who have access to Norwegian sources can enlighten us.

As for ideological camps in the summer, I went through a whole series, under family influence - organised by religious fundamentalists. The tendency of people who have lived in formerly Communist countries to prefer religion to politics seems to me mistaken. If you haven't tried it the other way round, don't knock it.

But of course, indoctrination whether religious or political is unacceptable.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:40:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to remember that the camp was supposed to be something like a one week gathering of members of the youth wing of the socialist party. They would be learning about political organising and activism. The youth are reported to be between 14 and 20-something. I don't see why one would be worried about it being some kind of "indoctrination". These are politically active youth. 14 would be on the young end of political activism, but not overtly strange to me. I had friends while in school who joined the youth wings of various parties in Sweden at 15-16, for example. And at the time they seemed to have a genuine interest in politics. Why would we be concerned that young people show an interest in politics and would attend political meetings? Teenagers are hardly some kind of innocent kids incapable of holding opinions of their own. Some of the attendees would already be of voting age, and also capable of standing for election. Others only a few years away.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 09:58:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But also I do not understand what political party has to do with 14 years old kids, let alone make camp and brain wash them at that early age.

Ah, that's not quite an accurate impression. This sort of event is more of a "get together and party" thing than ideological schooling. The ideological schooling happens elsewhere.

Now does anyone have any other theory of what happened but one about lunatic doing this on his own or Islamists...?

Islamists is pretty conclusively ruled out at this stage. "A single lunatic" has been the right-wing modus operandi for assassinations since the last world war put an end to the traditional right-wing militia. So yes, I'd say that this is more than just a single lunatic, but everybody else involved has plausible deniability.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
peaceful

No.

Libia
Afganastan
Nato

see also Glenn Greenwald

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:39:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah...you are right...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 09:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
any crackdown is going to be criticised by business interests and their friendly press as illiberal and a danger to democracy

Given the shocking scale and horrifying circumstances, I think they'd have a hard time selling that line. Supposing "business interests" to be somehow favourable to leaving nutters of this kind free to commit mass murder.

Though there's some fancy footwork needed from those who at first lined up spontaneously with the stock analysis:

Why did the Norweigan attacks? - CBS News

(CBS News) 

The explosion in Norway's capital Oslo and a shooting on the island of Utoya that have left a total of at least 16 dead is puzzling because Norway is considered a peaceful country. It had prompted this question: "Why target Norway?" CBS News correspondent Bob Orr explains:

"Believe it or not, Norway has been on al Qaeda's hit list for agent about eight years now. Leader Ayman al-Zawahiri back in 2003 warned Norway would be targeting for supporting the U.S. War in Afghanistan. After a Norwegian newspaper reprinted cartoons of the prophet Mohammed in 2006, once again al Qaeda called for revenge.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We're also going to see a lot of "lone nut" rationalisations of this. And that would be an angle from which to criticise a crackdown as an overreaction.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 07:58:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember That "Eurabian Civil War"?

If someone mentioned terrorism in Europe, you would probably have an idea about the size of the threat and who's responsible.

It's big, you would think. And growing. As for who's responsible, that's obvious. It's Muslims. Or if you're a little more careful with your language, it's radical Muslims, or "Islamists."

After all, they were at it again just in the past month. On Dec. 11, a 28- year-old naturalized Swede - originally from Iraq - injured two people when he blew himself up on the way to a shopping district. And on Dec. 29, police in Denmark said they thwarted a plan by five Muslims to storm the office of a Danish newspaper and kill as many people as possible.

So the danger is big and growing, and Islamists are the source. Right?

Wrong, actually.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:00:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Craig Murray » Blog Archive » Islamophobia Run Wild

I watched the disgraceful Islamophobic rantings on the BBC and Sky News last night in mounting disbelief. Security correspondent and security expert vied with each other to tell us that the dreadful attacks in Norway were the work of al-Qaida. One extraordinary American, introduced as from a Centre for Combating Extremism, explained that these Norwegian jihadists had international links and plans to attack London and the New York subway. Norway was a target, we were repeatedly told, because of its NATO membership.

There was at least six solid hours of this poisonous bullshit. I did not pick up on one single person who said that this probably was not Islamic terrorism - despite the glaringly obvious fact that the atrocity had a Norwegian domestic political agenda, being an attack on the Prime Minister's office, and on a youth camp of the governing party. The internet was buzzing for hours with the news that the attacker on Utoya Island was blonde, without the broadcast media mentioning it. The American security expert I mention above had that base covered - he had obviously seen those reports, but did not mention them. However he said that jihadist groups had probably recruited European looking operatives to carry out the attacks, because they were aware that security services "consciously or unconsciously operated racial profiling."



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:05:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is really sickening how USA media and "friends" are pushing for Islamists to blame...Poor Americans that have to endure all the shit they are presented. After all that happened last 10 years I hardly believe even what date is today when I see/hear it on TV...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:21:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well apparently CNN had an expert who after the police were saying that it was internal politics, explained how they were wrong

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:28:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Charlie Brooker (charltonbrooker) on Twitter
Just wrote a col for Monday Guardian about some of the Oslo coverage. May run online tmrw, maybe earlier.

John Bolton on Fox News earlier: anchor says looks like lone madman, not AQ as JB had speculated. He says let's not speculate till facts in.

To be fair to Fox, anchor was v clear it seems similar to Oklahoma tragedy; following bulletin also described suspect as rightwing extremist

Some ppl singling out Sky News unfairly I think: foreign ed T. Marshall tweeted v measured info last night: http://bit.ly/qbfayy

Whereas every channel seemed to have countless speculating security experts incorrectly guessing their gobs off.

Next angle will prob be impact of violent films & games etc. Not impact of negative depiction of Islam in news.

Not that I have any idea what caused it either. All very sad.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:37:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dan Gardner: Remember That "Eurabian Civil War"?
Oh, there are incidents. I cited two above. And for people like Steyn, that is more than enough. Tell a true story; treat it as typical; draw a scary conclusion: This is the standard operating procedure of alarmists.
When I imagine that the Utøya massacre is not an isolated incident, am I being alarmist?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 07:09:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a difference between claiming that something is "not an isolated incident" and claiming that it is commonplace. Nobody here is claiming that right-wing assassinations are commonplace, but nor are they isolated incidents. In the same way that Islamist bomb-throwing is not commonplace even though it cannot be separated from its ideological justifications either.

There is also the fact that alarmists like Steyn simply flat out lie about the ideological and social background for Islamist bomb-throwing.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 07:34:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't really know the Norwegian media, but one might hope there's less craven crap than in the US, where McVeigh was the wrong colour to be labeled a terrorist. Or there was some other reason.

Though it'll be (sort of) interesting to see by what contorsions the American media twist out of calling this terrorism (after having called it such and supposed Al Qaeda involvement).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I hadn't read ceebs above before posting.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In order to get to the bottom of this horrific story it would be interested to know WHO supplied this guy with automatic weapon (it must be automatic if he killed and wounded so many people in such a short time) and of course who supplied him with a bomb so powerful? I assume it's not easy to buy all that stuff like in a corner shop...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He was on a small island. Full of kids. A semiautomatic pistol is actually more likely, since it lets him use his ammunitions more effectively.

I'm more interested in why the police held off on going to the island for so long. It should have been simplicity itself to requisition a helicopter full of terrorist police with automatic weapons and high powered scoped rifles.

But I expect that that part will be the subject of a detailed inquiry.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:20:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say there's probably a factor that the major factor probably is the big explosion, all of your heavy duty security police are probably rushed to Oslo to deal with bombs which probably seemed to be the bigger threat, whereas a shooting on an Island probably was seen as a distraction from the major problem for quite a while.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:32:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I continue to think the bomb was a deliberate and clever diversionary tactic by the shooter.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the Norwegian police single police helicopter was grounded because the crew was on holiday.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 02:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to swedish news, he bought a semi-automatic gun for hunting after getting a gun license in accordance with the rules (joined a gun club, took the mandatory training classes etc).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 02:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brevik's obscene massacre is, I think, perhaps one of the most virulent symptoms yet of the effects of the Anglo Disease of neo-liberal globalism/internationalism in a developed and 'civilised' nation.

Norway historically is a nation of rugged frontier individualists but with the long tradition of solidarity/ 'Dugnad' necessary for survival in a hostile environment.

This society has - in the last 30 years - become thoroughly corrupted by the influx of alien values of neo-liberal politics of greed. This process has been turbocharged by the Curse of Oil and has led to the hopefully not yet irreversible spread of selfishness and materialism.

A relatively small elite has been an almost permanent fixture at the pinnacle of Norwegian Labour politics - such as Brundtland; the Stoltenbergs; and behind the scenes there have been key figures and 'eminences grise'.

Post-war the Labour party exemplified the spirit of solidarity that rebuilt the nation after the war. But Power corrupts over time, and Norwegian Labour has paralleled New Labour in the UK, whose policies they have studied and follow slavishly.

When the Norwegians voted twice, narrowly, against joining the EU, the elite essentially ignored this inconvenience by simply adopting EU directives and enforcing them more rigorously, within a context of EEA membership, than any EU member.

Brevik clearly blamed Brundtland in particular for this internationalism, and I would imagine he was aiming to kill her on Utøya had she not been fortunate enough to leave an hour before he arrived.

The neo-liberal assaults which followed - many of which flowed from following EU directives - on traditional property rights; and on common ownership of productive assets, have deeply divided Norway.

Creeping marketisation and exploitation has taken place of institutions as diverse as the 'for profit' enforcement industry in respect of court judgements, and an entire industry built around removing children from 'unfit' parents and fostering them at huge expense to the state, and immense private profit.  

This process has been exacerbated by the opening up of the borders through Schengen, which is one of the main drivers of the membership of the anti-immigrant populist Fremskritt party, whose members perceive themselves as being excluded from work by immigrants. Brevik was apparently a prominent member of the Fremskritt party's youth movement.

This tragedy creates a watershed or cross-roads moment for Norwegian society.

Hopefully, they will draw the right lessons from this appalling crime and address the cause, rather than this gruesome symptom, of the Anglo Disease in Norway.


"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:52:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Norway has its own tradition of right wing extremism that has nothing to do with the Anglo disease.
by rootless2 on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 11:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Every nation has somewhere around 25% of their population classifiable as politically psychotic, meaning "not emotionally and cognitively attached to reality" often delusional, a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated and is held with very strong feelings or opinions and expressed forcefully, possibly hysterical, unmanaged emotional responses, often leading to moral panic, high intensity of feeling about an issue that appears to threaten the social order and concretized in a group who is perceived as the threat to the established social order.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:38:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
False consciousness.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 05:48:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This attack is no good turn for world peace and sane politics and economics. Norway, of all places...

The most certain outcome of this event for the left politics is fear. The left is already marginalized and betrayed by own elites in most countries. They can't buy a confidence boost in this century. Whatever revival scenarios were in cards, the area of passive fear - of loosing your job, house, friends, and now perhaps your own life - has just expanded. Whatever "global awakenings" you may hear about, you don't see any mass pressure on rather coherent crashing events (unlike the 1960s), just a passive observation. Did totalitarian manipulation experts dream of anything better?

Even if there will be an expectable crackdown, with these governments you will never know what they would be actually doing. Thanks for extra "emergency" powers, no watch this... A compartmentalized control of global politics, economics through shock events is not only feasible, it should be now a serious consideration.

Don't laugh, but I checked a few "truth" sites:

Oslo Police Conducted Bombing Exercise Days Before Terrorist Blast

Obama Reaction To Norway Massacre Betrays US "War on Terror" Fundamentalism

I don't believe that "the" global conspiracy is that awesome as, say, David Icke describes. That type of conspiracy actually needs to inflate its awesomeness with "leaking" stories to leave a few options to those "getting it". Let's see: the mass media is evidently consolidated and routinely manipulated; much of alternative information sources do not leave much potential for rational analysis; more and more commentary and decisions are based on fear, unknown factors. It goes only one way since some time, and no slowdown or turn around in sight.

by das monde on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The most certain outcome of this event for the left politics is fear.

The left still doesn't know what hit it. But, to be honest, the left's base has become "bourgeois" - the post-WWII prosperity has given them (us...) a lot to loose and a middle class ethos even when they're still just hiring their labour out rather than owning their own business. And, of course, the trend towards transforming full-time employment with self-employment with a single client just reinforces that political shift.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ask a comedian:

That's the way the ruling class operates in any society. They try to divide the rest of the people. They keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other so that they, the rich, can run off with all the fucking money! Fairly simple thing! Happens to work! You know? Anything different! That's what they're gonna talk about race, religion, ethnic and national background, jobs, income, education, social status, sexuality, anything can do, keep us fighting with each other, so that they can keep going to the bank!

You know how I define the economic and social classes in this country? The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there... just to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep 'em showing up at those jobs.
by das monde on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 11:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A few questions for anyone that might be knowledgeable about Norway:
  • Could one man plan and execute all of this alone? Is there any information on investigations among Norway's extreme right?
  • If the suspect was indeed as Chris Cook says, "a prominent member of the Fremskritt party's youth movement", doesn't this create a PR problem for the party - to say the least? What are they saying for themselves?
  • Were there no police officers in the island? I mean, shouldn't there be?
  • Is there some really dark side of Norwegian society that is surfacing here? Recently, I always connect Norway with its uniquely violent, and sometimes murderous (not to mention racist/fascist on occasion), Black Metal scene, especially of 10-20 years ago...
  • Yet this is still one of the more equal societies in Europe, no?
  • The left of SD in Norway is in decline, and it is a part of the ruling coalition. Are there two facts correlated?


The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 10:00:39 AM EST
Could one man plan and execute all of this alone?

Yes, if he had an IQ above room temperature. On the Celcius scale. I'll bet that I can come up with three ways to assassinate the Danish queen within ten minutes, if you don't care about getting caught. It's our good fortune that most assassins aren't very bright, but this one seems to have been the exception.

Is there any information on investigations among Norway's extreme right?

At this stage you don't get anything but blather. The real police hasn't gotten into gear yet, so all you'll get is political posturing and photo ops. That isn't a criticism of the real police, by the way - murders don't get any worse with time, so being thorough is better than being fast.

If the suspect was indeed as Chris Cook says, "a prominent member of the Fremskritt party's youth movement", doesn't this create a PR problem for the party - to say the least?

No. They have plausible deniability.

What are they saying for themselves?

I haven't checked, but if they play by the usual right-wing assassination playbook, they'll invoke plausible deniability, claim that he was an isolated individual who acted without their knowledge or consent, and that a party can't be held responsible for the actions of individuals who happen to be members - they can't run a thorough background check on every new applicant, after all.

Were there no police officers in the island? I mean, shouldn't there be?

Why should there be? It was a political party holding a summer camp, and there had been no threats made that we know of.

Is there some really dark side of Norwegian society that is surfacing here?

Yes. Scandinavia has a long-standing problem with violent right-wing direct action.

Recently, I always connect Norway with its uniquely violent, and sometimes murderous (not to mention racist/fascist on occasion), Black Metal scene, especially of 10-20 years ago...

I don't see any credible connection between the '90s black metal and right-wing direct action groups. Right-wing direct action groups tend to be associated with hooligans - at least that's the British and Spanish experience.

Yet this is still one of the more equal societies in Europe, no?

Yes.

The left of SD in Norway is in decline, and it is a part of the ruling coalition. Are there two facts correlated?

Yes, but whether the causality goes from being in government to reduced militancy or from reduced militancy making it more acceptable as a party of government is not completely clear to me.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 10:17:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
At this stage you don't get anything but blather.

For example on Norwegian TV2, where it's mostly standard we're so surprised he seemed a calm and nice person Who Could Have Predicted?

Only fact advanced (by Fremskrittspartiet), he was a member of their party in the early 2000s and then left.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 10:43:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because they weren't radical enough for him, I suppose.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:24:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Their line is he got more extreme after leaving.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 11:19:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A nation's enemy within: The far-right loner who wiped out nearly 100 souls - Europe, World - The Independent

Norway's right-wing Progress Party, which has risen to become the second largest party by surfing on a wave of growing anti-immigrant sentiment, was forced to hastily deny that Breivik had any recent contact following revelations that he had been a paid up member as recently as 2006.

"He is not a member any more," Progress leader Siv Jensen told Reuters. "It makes me very sad that he was a member at an earlier point. He was never very active and we have a hard time finding anyone who knows much about him." He added: "He had a hard time accepting our principles and our way of working because he had his own ideas. When we didn't listen to him, he walked out the door." But after leaving Progress, it is clear that Breivik had turned to more extremist politics.

More in the "he seemed a calm and nice person" department, but here the sadder part:

In the suburb of Oslo where Breivik is known to have spent much of his time with his mother, a feeling of shock and disbelief had descended upon the area, an affluent corner to the west of the city centre. Police spent yesterday searching a flat that tax records show was owned by Breivik and his elderly mother, Wenche Behring.

Caroline Slatti, 22, a neighbour who lives in the same block of flats on Hoffsveien, remembered a quiet but unremarkable man with a sociable mother who tended to his every need. "He looked like an ordinary guy, he was just like anybody else," she said. "I didn't know him all that well but his mother is really friendly. She dotes on him and always talks about him."

At the back of the mall opposite the flat is a café where many of the area's retirees, including Breivik's mother, would come for a daily coffee. Stephan Imbernon, a French-born 34-year-old waiter, recalled how Mrs Behring had been in the cafe at the time her son began his rampage. "She was sitting there for around two or three hours," he said. "It's horrible. People feel very sad for this woman because everyone knows her."



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 04:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well you wouldn't expect any information to be leaking on the investigation. There's reports that he was running an organic vegetable farm, and had had recently received six tons of fertiliser, so it's reasonable to think that he could do this on his own, but its just as reasonable to think that he should have had help.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 10:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know what kind of certified organic fertiliser can be used as an explosive.

I do know what kind of chemical fertiliser can be used as an explosive, on the other hand.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 10:39:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You picked up on that little inconsistency

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 10:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm a known PNer.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 11:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
any excuse to sling more shit at the organic farming persuasion, so a la mode right now...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 10:25:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure by now he did ran some kind of vegetable farm - the documentation fits.

Breivik apparently had a license for several weapons - I see reports he owned a Glock pistol, an automatic weapon and a rifle/shotgun.

There are witness accounts of a second shooter on the island. Will have to see how credible these reports are.

The details from the stories of the survivors are horrifying. Breivik deliberately used his guise as a policeman to draw out people from their hiding places, calling out to them it was safe. The moment people approached him, he shot them. He targeted pretty girls first.

by Nomad on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 11:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I've seen reports about the vegetable farm, and the suggestion it allowed him to get fertiliser to use as explosive. But I doubt it was an organic farm, because I don't see what fertiliser he'd have used. In non-organic farming, otoh, there's an obvious candidate.

I also heard (radio) he had permits for a Glock and at least one other firearm.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 12:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a strong hunting culture in Norway after all...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:26:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My instinct is that this was a one-man operation by an extremely intelligent psychopath. Note that he went to one of Oslo's top schools, the Handelsgymnasium 'commercial college'.

As a 32 year old he would have been in the Fremskritt party youth movement a few years ago: I think that this outrage may well see existing schisms in that party destroy it in months to come. We should get an indication of that in forthcoming local elections in the autumn.

Yes, indeed there are some extremely dark and sometimes dangerous currents in Norwegian society.

The myths surrounding what went on in the war and in the aftermath are now being dispelled as a generation dies and the truth is revealed after generations of suppression.

Note here that there is more than one source of poison: there is the Nazi collaboration aspect, which is mirrored by similar revelations in France and elsewhere which dispelled prevalent myths.

Secondly, and more dangerous still, there is the relationship between elements of the Norwegian Left, and the Soviet Union.

Don't forget here that the Russians did not pull out of Northern Norway until over 6 months after the War ended, and some say that was not until they were comfortable with the regime which followed. Some believe that the US was for many years uncomfortable in their dealings with Norway whom they suspected of being infiltrated. This is a very dark and dangerous area, and there have been many unexplained deaths and much ruthless suppression of inconvenient facts.

But I digress.

The real point is that lurking within the civilised and egalitarian Norwegian society may be monsters which have grown in the last 30 years, nourished by the black tide of oil and gas 'wealth'.

I think - maybe 'hope' is better - that this massacre may prove to be a cathartic event, and that Norway will emerge the stronger as the 'Old Norway' of sturdy self reliance and solidarity re-asserts itself against alien values.

It all hinges on how the Labour party heals itself in the aftermath.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 11:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian dug-up Breivik's posts on Document.no.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 11:10:49 AM EST
A nation's enemy within: The far-right loner who wiped out nearly 100 souls - Europe, World - The Independent
With few friends in the real world, he appears to have immersed himself in political chat rooms. Hans Rustad, editor of one forum, Document.no, does not remember Breivik being "particularly hateful" in his online postings. "There was nothing that would suggest that he was an extremist, as in the meaning of an actionist." Breivik showed up a public meeting hosted by the website in December 2009. "There wasn't anything that could back up what he said. He pretended to be someone he wasn't."


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 04:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Notice there's not much people have to comment about this horror. one sits, i sit, in stunned silence... at the crass violence.

Call World of Warcraft and its clones part of the GDP, then reap what you sow.

There are over 100 families who will never quite get over the shock. My heart goes out to them, losing your children is beyond comprehensible.

Could that be happening in Waziristan also?

I remember a girlfriend, who happened to be a nurse, who happened to be a hundred yards from the OK City bomb, who worked as first responder until 3 days later.

Will this civilization ever wake the fuck up?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 05:17:41 PM EST
I sit in stunned silence too. I cannot imagine any pain worse than that of losing a loved one, especially a child. But I do know that desperate people do desperate things, often with horrible consequences. Does it have to be like this? And why? We may have reasons, but we don't have answers.

My heart goes out to all whose lives this tragedy has touched. I grieve with you over this senseless loss of life. How unfair, how arbitrary. Why can't we just get along? Will we ever learn?

by sgr2 on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a link to that murderous thug's Political Manifesto.

All 1,518 pages.

I couldn't get it to download, maybe someone else will have better luck.

The guy who found it, Kevin Slaughter, has a copy up on his site here.

A 'feel' for the document::

Political Correctness now looms over Western European society like a colossus. It has taken over both political wings, left and right. Among so called Western European "conservative" parties the actual cultural conservatives are shown the door because being a cultural conservative opposes the very essence of political correctness. It controls the most powerful element in our culture, the media and entertainment industry. It dominates both public and higher education: many a college campus is a small, ivy-covered North Korea. It has even captured the higher clergy in many Christian churches.  Anyone in the Establishment who departs from its dictates swiftly ceases to be a member of the Establishment.

and

It is not sufficient just to criticise Political Correctness. It tolerates a certain amount of
criticism, even gentle mocking. It does so through no genuine tolerance for other points of view, but in order to disarm its opponents, to let itself seem less menacing than it is.  The cultural Marxists do not yet have total power, and they are too wise to appear totalitarian until their victory is assured.  

Rather, those who would defeat cultural Marxism must defy it. They must use words it forbids, and refuse to use the words it mandates; remember, sex is better than gender.  They must shout from the housetops the realities it seeks to suppress, such as our opposition to Sharia on a national and local level, the Islamisation of our countries, the facts that violent crime is disproportionately committed by Muslims and that most cases of AIDS are voluntary, i.e., acquired from immoral sexual acts. They must refuse to turn their children over to public schools.

Above all, those who would defy Political Correctness must behave according to the old rules of our culture, not the new rules the cultural Marxists lay down. Ladies should be wives and homemakers, not cops or soldiers, and men should still hold doors open for
ladies. Children should not be born out of wedlock. Glorification of homosexuality should be shunned. Jurors should not accept Islam as an excuse for murder.

and on (& on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on) it goes for another 1,517 pages.  The only thing I've read to compare it to is Mein Kampf which is also the deadly earnest rantings of a sociopath and the same inability to engage with reality.

Here's a picture attached to the document:

He also posted a YouTube which has been withdrawn for "violating YouTube's terms of service."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:21:14 AM EST
France Info radio this morning, referring to this document and the (pulled) Youtube video, says he worked on this attack for several years. Was for Europe against Islamisation favourised by the political left.

Christian values of the West versus (cultural Marxism + Islam).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:10:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was travelling for four days and haven't seen any news, to come back at this...

the facts that violent crime is disproportionately committed by Muslims

Then you commit something to disprove it? I can't get the motive. In the Dokument.no rantings linked to in this thread, in the very first one quoted from last October, the madman warns the site from hiring a "potentially 'potentially correct' person with a background in a Marxist boot camp", which suggests that he saw the summer camp as incubator of evil ideas – still, could even such a madman expect to avoid a comparison in evil-ness with Islamist terrorists?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
His lawyer said the other day on Swedish television that in his clients own little world things were proceeding according to plan. The lawyer has also filed for an investigation into wheter his client is legally responsible for his actions (or should be locked up in a mental ward).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 02:54:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He also posted a YouTube which has been withdrawn for "violating YouTube's terms of service."

I think I wrote about this before: YouTube (and other international video/image hosting sites) are full of far-right propaganda in languages other than the site owner's, and they are little bothered to do anything about it. They would need to hire lots of 'moderators' who understand what's spoken and written and know the symbols shown, after all.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, wait, Youtube is destroying evidence potentially useful to the investigation?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:37:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ladies should be wives and homemakers, not cops or soldiers, and men should still hold doors open for ladies.

Combined with this:

He targeted pretty girls first.

...the possibility of a real a motive wholly different from Islamophobia emerges...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He did not kill single Islamist...he killed pure "white and blonde" Norwegians...it's just not adding ...story is a little bit hollow...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, he killed "cultural marxists".

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:22:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Multiculturalism has not been "invented" recently and not by this government. It was economic necessity for Western Europe for a long time...All tho they who invented it didn't expect  that those foreigners will ever have same rights like west Europeans...How that happened?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 09:11:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean this guy is fucked up? Sure.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:52:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not know...Looking at his face he does not look like crazy man to me...You know how one can see "sign" in their eyes?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 09:14:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I don't really know what "sign" you can see in someone's eyes that shows they're crazy.

What looks evident to me is this young man's extreme narcissism. That isn't enough to make him a paranoid schizophrenic, but enough to consider he's "fucked up".

But I was thinking more of what has been shown by his deeds (even allowing for the possibility he wasn't the only organiser).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 11:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i would bet an over-authoritarian family was involved. i also suspect deep issues regarding relating to the opposite gender.

over-rightwing tendencies tend not to be seen as sexy by modern females, bless 'em. jilted revenge coupled with generalised resentment could be a powerful enough combo to motivate an act so demented.

i too was disgusted by the kneejerk, lockstep media reaction, with nary an apology after the truth finally was established, (that i saw anyway).

i wonder whether he will defend himself in court, he may be the type to use it as soapbox.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The 1500-page document reportedly contains passages about his difficult relationship with family, including a stepfather described as 'spending most of his time with prostitutes in Thailand', but at the same being a 'good man'.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:08:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm curious as to your previous experience with seeing "crazy in the eyes" - where this took place, the manifestations of the craziness of said person.  I ask this because so many people get their ideas of this from television rather than reality.

Thanks.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 11:36:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Said with much more grace than I was going to comment

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, thanks, Ceebs.  I had to fight this problem with juries SO often.  People tend to think that criminals are "masterminds" like the anti-hero in Die Hard, and you have to explain to them that lots of criminals really are stupid and incompetent, and that just because you think "no one could be that stupid" doesn't mean you should find someone "not guilty." On TV, sure, but not in real life.

"Crazy in the eyes" can be REALLY subtle, in my experience.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well this one is not simply criminal...he is a mass murderer. I make a difference.
Long ago I have heard a friend psychiatrist saying: I don't need much to tell if they are crazy..."I just have to look at their eyes" (or something like that). After that I tend to look people at the eyes more often and I (not being professional) learned to recognise not exactly madness but certainly to recognise when people around me have some psychological issues. Maybe professionals here may tell us more...
Well maybe these photos of this mass murderer were made prior to him going totally crazy.
And yes to kill 92 people one has to be totally crazy in my eyes...not simply stupid. Even solders can rarely kill masses and they are trained to kill. This does not make them necessarily mentally healthy and we can see that lot of them have mental problems after they come back home from war.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, no...I never said he was stupid rather than crazy, and I referred to "crazy IN the eyes" - not "crazy in YOUR eyes."  He's crazy in my eyes, too, but I also think he's crazy IN the eyes; we just differ there. I see a horrible coldness in his eyes.

I think it has already been established that he was quite intelligent.  But I still wonder what BEHAVIOUR you have seen on the part of those who you thought to be "crazy in the eyes" has confirmed for you that you were right about them being crazy.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 03:20:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said I am not professional and it is hard for me to explain "what" I see in the eyes of people that I met and in the end it was proven that they had some mental issues. But there is something and professionals obviously know to recognize it even without naming it for us amateurs.
Yes I see "horrible coldness" in his eyes but for me it's not sign of madness. There are types of people with that "cold eyes"...and preatty normal...
These are words that come to mind when I am talking about what I see in people with mental issues:  permanent and without specific reason  intense panic, terror, anxiety ... so it's kind of obvious that he is lost, absent,  fragmented person , in teriffic psychological pain , that just lost it...
That is for lack of better words...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 05:36:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What kind of mental illnesses have you seen signs of? Were there any who went on an amok run?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 07:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a good point. Mass murdering psychopaths make up a tiny percentage of the mentally ill. Most mentally ill people aren't much of a danger to anyone - even themselves.

I - quite seriously - believe that established psychopaths in positions of power are far more dangerous than shooting spree crazies.

Unfortunately only the latter create outraged and horrified headlines. The former are considered serious and leaderly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 08:46:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"I - quite seriously - believe that established psychopaths in positions of power are far more dangerous than shooting spree crazies."

(Sorry, don't know how to do the quote thing yet, and about to go to bed)

I totally have to agree. As a prosecutor, it made me CRAZY that someone who robbed a convenience store with a gun could end up in prison for life (one or two victims, most likely, in person) whereas a person who cheats THOUSANDS, MILLIONS, out of their pensions, retirements, whatever, goes to a federal country club prison for a few years.

I know this doesn't directly address the quotation, but it's in the same vein.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 03:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quotes are [blockquote]Quoted text here[/blockquote], with the sharp brackets replaced by "<" and ">".

Oh, and the inverse relationship between the seriousness of the crime and the seriousness of the punishment goes even further: Add a few zeros to Madoff's scam and he would have been a pillar of society who needed a bailout.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 06:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course not.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you don't have experience to tell whether the madness is visible in this killer's eyes, then.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 02:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not. As I said I am not a professional and this I have heard from a professional who had about 20 years of experience at the time...
Yesterday on TV there was a Norwegian psychologist telling us that this man is a RARE kind of a mentally sick man that managed to hide his sickness.
You know the saying: Eyes are windows of a soul...Some people are able to lurk trough these windows...I try...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find the "Eyes are the windows of the soul" idea  ludicrous. and the idea that he is the rare type of mentally sick person who can hide their sickness almost insulting in its lack of thought.

The major problem that people with mental illnesses face (Apart from the illnesses themselves) is that they are not instantly visible on the outside. people who dont have them are constantly faced by people saying "But theres nothing wrong with you".

Would that there was a simple thing visible on the inside of the eyes, but no it's rubbish.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 10:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's your right to believe and think what you want...
Regardless of mentally ill people I do believe and think that with perfectly healthy people their eyes can tell a lot about their character etc. Face and expressions are also revealing...
Maybe one have to live long enough and to be interested in people to realise that eyes are "windows of the soul". When one looks at his own photos when young it is usually easy to recognise "innocence" comparing with photos later in life. Our face is not blank page...People made science out of this issue...apart from medicine, criminology those results are used very widely...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 12:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo:
People made science out of this issue...apart from medicine, criminology those results are used very widely...

If you're claiming your view is science-based, you should at least give some references.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 01:17:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe this discussion has gone wrong way and I'll stop here. It is not even relevant in this case.
Whoever is interested can investigate more by searching internet or talk to professionals.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 01:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
its no more correct than Phrenology

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 01:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but that cold hardness Is crazy, though it may be indeed 'rational'.

it just hasn't acted out yet.

and yes, it is becoming 'normal' to have no affect or capacity for affection, given or taken.

indeed these are rewarded 'values' by a sociopathic society, led by models of the genre.

increasingly 'leaders' are foisted upon the gullible lectorate, selected for their highly skilful capacity to lie...

think about it, every time you see a commercial on tv, what is it but someone lying for money?

how many million ads do we see growing up?

lies are the water in which we have learned to swim. truthful people are admired for their candour, but avoided for their abrasiveness...

easier to go with the flow, learn to lie better, bigger. cf dave from marketing! in the great bliar tradition, he...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 08:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes things that are normal today simply sadden me...
Not that we were perfect but back then when our behaviour wasn't appropriate, family, friends / society would intervene telling us that we shouldn't be for example selfish , hurtful , cold etc. towards others. But now ...maybe they still talk like that but you teach children by example...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:46:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lots of speculation there, but I mean that he may have built his elaborate mad political theory of a freedom fight against Islamofascists and their 'politically correct' 'cultural Marxist' enablers around nothing political but a male chauvinist incapacity to accept being dumped or shunned by a successful girl (who may have attended this island).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Saw a comment earlier that some of his stuff is copied from the Unabombers manifesto

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and apparently a couple of pages at least quoting mad mel from the daily mail

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 09:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe he just hates feminists and doesn't want any Socialist girls to grow up to be a new Gro Harlem.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Friends in amurka report that the media there says the maximum sentence for the killer is 16 years, and report that Norway has no death penalty. This seems to be one angle on how to get around that it wasn't islamist terror.

Is there a maximum sentence for murder there? If so, couldn't each count be additive?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 05:34:01 AM EST
What they should be talking about instead is gun control. For what reason could he keep an automatic weapon at home? Not for hunting, nor for self-defence. There is no reason to keep sports weapons at home (from what I know, the main loophole for madmen in Europe).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:28:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why the hell would ANY CIVILIAN have permit for automatic weapon ANYWHERE?
And while I am at this first of all I do not think that he was alone. Why? To kill 92 people (do not know if this is a final number) in such a short time one have to be very well trained. Was he ex army man or something? Even the fact that island is small is not good enough and one would have to be very precise to KILL all those people. Not to mention that it takes a lot of nerves. Looking at his face he does not look like a lunatic to me...not even like sociopath...
Then the bomb...if that was a bomb in usual sense. How easy it was for him to plant it? And in that district where leading political party has headquarter? Do not tell me there are no cameras around these buildings! It would need to be very well organised and organisation takes "organisation" (group). No...For me there are a lot of questions here...
And did you see how Prime minister in his first speech that they addressed attacker as "group" as if he knew whom he is telling that "they will not take our democracy away"...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:35:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems to have been a car bomb. In that case, as long as parking was legal outside the building, there would have been no reason to suspect anything.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 09:18:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To kill 92 people (do not know if this is a final number) in such a short time

85 were killed in 90 minutes: one a minute. That's not so fast. But yes he was reportedly well trained.

Looking at his face he does not look like a lunatic to me

How does a lunatic look like? And from what experience do you know? If looks would give away all lunatics, they would never get the chance to prepare and execute amok runs.

How easy it was for him to plant it?

This is Norway, not the USA.

Do not tell me there are no cameras around these buildings!

Those are of no use in prevention if you don't plan to get away with it.

It would need to be very well organised and organisation takes "organisation" (group).

In movies yes.

With all that said, I wait and see if accomplices will be found or only evidence of his own claimed years of preparation work.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
85 were killed in 90 minutes: one a minute. That's not so fast
---------------
Oh c'mon...one a minute is NOT fast?

But yes he was reportedly well trained.
---------------
Where exactly he had his training?

I already explained about eyes and lunatics. Most of the mentally sick people are diagnosed sooner or later. It's hard to hide madness. Problem is that there are no facilities or money in the states budgets or simply will or political directions to keep them in hospitals. Most of them are even aware of demons they are fighting and usually before they commit some horrific murder they actually call the hospital and ask for help...and they do not get it.
I wouldn't really know about those militant lunatics but people around them has to be aware that something is definitely wrong. They may not take it seriously enough...
As for him doing everything on his own, maybe... but as I said he would then be very talented man... and wouldn't be practically without income (as tax returns shows).To make car bomb (remotely activated) successful one also needs some technical skills. He seems to be studied commerce...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not so hard to misdiagnose it either.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 01:26:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hah...knowing few psychiatrists looks like psychiatrist should be assessed and diagnosed first, haha

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 05:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is why Most of the mentally sick people are diagnosed sooner or later. It's hard to hide madness. Problem is that there are no facilities or money in the states budgets or simply will or political directions to keep them in hospitals gives me the creeps.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 05:20:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the mentally sick people are diagnosed sooner or later.

Unless they're rich and/or powerful.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 05:25:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah...you may be right, haha.
Unless in the end they kill someone or themselves...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 05:43:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They aren't, AFAIK, allowed automatic weapons. But as we've seen in this case, semiautomatic weapons will work just as well (if not better) when you have an isolated, target rich environment where your victims can't shoot back.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 11:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gun control  and can prevent off-the-cuff attacks such as the University of Iowa shooting.  It will not, cannot, prevent a functional, organized, person from acquiring military style weapons.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Saw someone saying that the maximum sentence for anything in Norway is 21 years, however, for someone who is still considered a threat to society, there is a five year renewable extension on the end, so effectively a life term

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 07:22:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And in fact, according to wiki:

Murder (Norway law)

that's the case.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 12:15:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But a 2008 law on crimes against humanity carries a 30-year sentence. They may be thinking of charging him under that law.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 04:21:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I was the defense attorney I'd go for "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" ruling.

Personally, I think this is a clear-cut case for the death penalty.  The guy committed mass murder.  He is almost certainly somewhere in the sociopathic-psychopathic spectrum, for which there is no known cure.  He cannot be released from incarceration for the term of his life as he is a clear and present danger to society and individuals.  He is going to have to be guarded and supported by society ... at colossal expense for the next 50 years, or so.  Kill the bugger off and be done with it.

But I've never claimed to be all that Civilized.

 

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You do realize that in the US at least, it's far more expensive (for the state) to deal with death penalty law than to incarcerate him for life.

And who are you to say anyone, including him, must die?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No matter the situation, the death penalty is wrong,

not because of anything to do with the person who is being executed, but because it says things about us. Do we really want to lower ourselves to their level?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More to the point, do you really want to create a government bureaucracy whose mission statement includes killing off their own citizens?

If you do, I have two words for you: Mission creep.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:54:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or creepy mission.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:29:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You said it better than i, but that was my intent.


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think we have the right to decide collectively, in cold blood, to put someone to death.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:37:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure about this, to tell the truth.
I rationnally understand that it is not a good thing to put someone to death, nevertheless, I'm not entirely convinced that this could/should apply to politically oriented crime, in the sense that the criminal here wishes to destroy the country in which he is living, included its laws.

This guy has as objectives to overwelm democracy in a european country. Would this happen in France, I believe it would qualify as organising an insurrection (attempt to destroy the institutions of the Republic by violence), crime that would involve the maximum prison time (death penalty before 1981): 30 years, no reduction.

by Xavier in Paris on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 05:10:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can find contrived scenarios that make very nearly any punishment or investigation technique at least ethically debatable.

The more important question is whether you ever going to find yourself in a situation where you have enough armed revolutionaries that finding prison space for them becomes a genuine logistical problem? If so, you are already experiencing an armed revolution, during which the whole "rule of law" thing, judging by historical experience, tends to go out the window anyway.

As long as you're only looking at a couple of political assassins every decade, scattered all across the EU, I can see no justification - in simple practical terms - for establishing a whole bureaucracy dedicated to killing them off legally. A bureaucracy that will, in all the time it does not have any political assassins to kill, have to justify its existence by dreaming up ever broader categories of crimes that might make it ethically palatable to treat people to a bullet in the back of the head.

So even sidestepping the question of whether it is ethical to put revolutionaries to death - I would still argue that it isn't - such a penalty would either be an expensive boondoogle or an invitation to broaden the penalty to more pedestrian crimes, in order to satisfy the needs of petty bureaucratic empire building.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 10:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the question of whether it is ethical to put revolutionaries to death - I would still argue that it isn't

Depends on whether the regime is legitimate. If so, then during an insurrection, shoot-to-kill, or even summary execution up to a point, is fine by me. After the fact (with due process), certainly not.

Borderline case : mercenaries captured during coup attempts. Tidiest solution: accidental extra-judicial death.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 11:04:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't trying to make the case that it's unethical to shoot hostile irregulars before they surrender, only after they have done so.

Of course, in practise during a serious insurrection (and even during a not-so-serious one - see, e.g., the alleged suicides of German RAF members in prison) rebels are going to get summarily executed. And while nobody will complain very loudly about that, it still doesn't make a good legal precedent.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 12:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And in cold hard realpolitik terms, a regime that will not kill to defend its existence cannot survive in the long run.

But this guy is no threat to the Norwegian regime. He organized no insurrection, and even if he had, the regime would have handled it easily. If you execute him, you open the door to execution of the silly black b(ol)locs who smash windows, shrieking "Paris, lève-toi!".

If a regime gets near the tipping point, insurrectionaries will logically be shot on sight. Executing them after the fact is not very effective really.

In practice anyway, Norway has a law that enables them to renew his lease on a prison cell every five years. So logically he'll never be free again.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 10:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I was the defense attorney I'd go for "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" ruling.

That will get him locked up just as tightly, only in a mental ward instead of a prison. The rules for releasing the (by then hopefully formerly) criminally insane patients grant a lot more discretionary power to the wardens of such facilities than the rules for probation from prison sentences. Which usually means that rich and well connected murderers are released after much less time than swarthy poor ones.

But it's a moot point, because Scandinavian murderers have experienced a veritable revolution in their mental state over the past fifty years, to such an extent that they are almost universally declared to be sane in the eyes of the law. Whether this has something to do with political pressure to be "tough on crime" is a judgement I will leave to the reader.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am also against death penalty...generally.
But if, God forbid, someone would kill one member of my family, I would be able to kill him. Simple as that. I would not wait for government to do it.  I do not see how one can be "civilised" in this kind of situation...ever. But hey I may be just a wild and " primitive" Serb, haha.
I just hope God will spare me of those kinds of temptations...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 07:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As many as 80 young members of the Labour Party were shot dead

Some sources are saying up to 98!?

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:30:34 AM EST
The latest count I heard was 92 with 4 missing (but that includes 7 in the bombing). So, on the island, 85 with 4 missing.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:48:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reportedly, the business where the assassin bought the five tons of fertiliser warned police about the unusually large order.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:41:33 AM EST
Well, apparently not before but after, and the amount was not unusual:

A nation's enemy within: The far-right loner who wiped out nearly 100 souls - Europe, World - The Independent

When news of Breivik's arrest emerged, an agricultural supplier phoned the police to inform them that six tons of fertiliser had been delivered to the farm just two weeks before the twin attacks. Mixed with the right chemicals and with a detonator, fertiliser is highly explosive and has been frequently used in terrorist car bombs. But a farmer ordering six tons would not have been enough to ring any alarm bells.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 04:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Six tons of this would not be much for a grain farmer, for example. It might be more than usual for a market gardener. But, in itself, it's not a huge quantity.

I understand why they say "mixed with the right chemicals" but it's an open secret. The hard part is detonation.

Unless Breivik did something much more fancy.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 04:34:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently he bought some chemicals from Sweden and some from Poland to decrease suspicion. Common market and all.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jul 27th, 2011 at 03:00:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Norway massacre: 6 arrests in Oslo, police trying to gain access to 2 chemical containers at address they have been searching- Sky News

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 07:22:44 AM EST
El Pais, Spain's "social democratic paper of record" has an op-ed by a Spanish professor at the Quality of Government Institute at the University of Göteborg advising us to look the other way.

ElPais.com: La clave es despertar igual que antes

La tragedia de Oslo revela dos cosas sobre la naturaleza humana. Uno, que existe una minoría, afortunadamente muy escasa, de seres humanos capaces de planear y ejecutar actos de una brutalidad casi inimaginable. Y dos, que el resto de seres humanos sentimos una necesidad muy comprensible de explicar por qué ha sucedido algo así. ¿Por qué alguien quería causar tanto daño en tal lugar y en tal momento a un grupo más o menos determinado de personas?

Como me es imposible encontrar una respuesta a esa pregunta, me gustaría limitarme a cuestionar dos explicaciones del tipo "X es el caldo de cultivo que nos ha llevado a esto", que resultan muy tentadoras en estos momentos. La primera sería una lectura política simplista, vinculando la barbarie al ascenso de la derecha populista en la Europa del norte y responsabilizando a sus líderes políticos de inspirar este crimen. Que el asesino estuviera políticamente motivado no implica que debamos criminalizar a colectivos (posiblemente heterogéneos) de votantes, militantes o parlamentarios de unos partidos políticos, por mucho que nos disgusten algunas de sus propuestas. Como han enfatizado miembros del Gobierno noruego, la clave es que mañana Noruega despierte como Noruega, una sociedad abierta, donde es posible confrontar ideas políticas en un ambiente de libertad.

The key is to wake up just like before
The Oslo tragedy reveals two things about human nature. One, that there's a minority, fortunately very small, of human beings able to plan and execute unimaginably brutal acts. And two, that the rest of human beings feel a very understandable need to explain why something like this happened. Why would someone want to cause so much harm at a given time and pace to a more or less well defined group of people?

Since it's impossible for me to find an answer to that question, I'd like to limit myself to questioning two explanations of the kind "X is the medium that cultivates this", which are very tempting right now. The first would be a simplistic political reading, linking the present barbarity with the ascent of the populist right wing in Northern Europe and making their political leaders responsible for inspiring this crime. That the murderer was politically motivated does not imply that we must criminalise groups (possibly heterogeneous) of voters, activists or parlamentarians of certain political parties, however distasteful we find their ideas. As members of the Norwegian government have stressed, the key is for Norway to wake up tomorrow as Norway, an open society, where it is possible to confront ideas in an atmosphere of freedom

He goes on to dismiss the idea "popularised by a slew of Scandinavian crime mystery novels" that there's something rotten in Scandinavia underneath the a civilised veneer, and even the "curse of oil" explanation for why this happened in Norway. So, he has no explanation and things should continue just like they were.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 07:31:33 AM EST
Sigh.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 07:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When they say "reveals something about human nature", you KNOW they're fucking rightwingers spewing a smoke screen.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:46:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, don't knock it. It's a piece of analysis by a Spanish political science professor "embedded" in the Scandinavian establishment. It's a scoop!

Bleurgh.

The guy doesn't look like an obvious rightist.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder who does these days.

Just getting abundant confirmation from French TV Noos that we are going to have this thing handled as a lone weirdo but not under the heading "terrorism".

Just one old and tired journalist on the island (who looked like this horror had really seeped into his soul), who, in response to the bright young néant doing the anchor number, actually spoke of political terrorism. But he can, he's a former Beyrouth hostage (Philippe Rochot).

All the other journalists played the game according to the narrative. Which persuades me (a little more) that we're all rightists now - and so can't make an enemy of one of our own.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:17:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dropped you an e-mail with a draft LTE that rebukes this toady for carrying water for the right-wing prevarications.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 11:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew you'd like it.

Translated LTE now sent back.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not post it here?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:20:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because I don't know what El Pais' rules are regarding LTEs that have previously been published in online venues.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another day, another op-ed. This one's a bit better;

El Pais: The far right threatens Europe

A Siv Jensen, la incendiaria líder del Partido del Progreso noruego, se le mojó la pólvora al saber que Anders Behring Breivik, el asesino de Oslo, había militado durante años en sus filas. "Duele saberlo", comentó cuando le dieron la noticia. "Lo que ha ocurrido es una terrible tragedia y lo importante es que los noruegos estemos juntos". Jensen se encuentra ahora en el centro del escenario, bajo unos focos que la muestran en nutrida compañía de líderes y partidos extremistas europeos, que cazan a placer votos de un electorado a la defensiva por la crisis económica y defraudado por una Unión Europea que no solo no resuelve sus problemas sino que sacrifica en el altar de la globalización puestos de trabajo cada vez más escasos. El extremismo político, tintado de nacionalismo y xenofobia, ha dejado de ser tabú cuando políticos tan respetables como Nicolas Sarkozy, Angela Merkel o David Cameron juegan con la idea de que "el multiculturalismo ha fracasado completamente", como mantiene la canciller alemana. Políticos clásicos y radicales pugnan por ese electorado como en una subasta, lo que permite a los analistas aventurar que las ideas extremas modelarán el debate político en Europa.
Learnng that Anders Behring Breivik, the Oslo murderer, had for years been an activist among her ranks, wetted the gunpowder of Siv Jensen, the incendiary leade or the Norwegian Progress Party. "What happened is a terrible tragedy and what's important is that we Norwegians remain together". Jensen is now in centre-stage, in a limelight showing her in the company of a large number of extremist parties and leaders, catching votes from an electorate at the defensive due to the economic crisis and disappointed by a European Union which not only does not solve their problems but sacrifices ever scarcer jobs on the altar of globalization. Political extremism, coloured by nationalism and xenophobia, is no longer taboo when politicians as respectable [sic] as Nicolas Sarkozy, Angela Merkel or David Cameron toy with the idea that "multiculturalism has completely failed", as the German Chancellor maintains. Classical and radical politicians fight for that electorate as in an auction, which allows analysts to guess that extreme ideas will shape Europe's political debate.


Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 01:53:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the video Anders Behring Breivik had posted on youtube:



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:25:08 AM EST
This looks pretty professionally done to me. I couldn't read small letters because of a size of video...As I said in my opinion he was not alone...or he is a man of many extraordinary "talents"...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:52:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's like he collected all the Islamophobe cartoons and montages off the web, I wonder how all the authors feel now... and then there is the one about "The Party has decided: NATIONALISM KILLS" – which, again, he went on to prove...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:30:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jesus, El Cid was not a "crusader commander". The Crusades began 200 years after El Cid and he himself served both Christian and Moorish kings as a mercenary after his own king had him banished.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, but you would have to let the facts get in the way of the "Clash of Civilization" narrative, now wouldn't you?

Same for the "Eurabian civil war" bullcrap debunked by Dan Gardner.

by Bernard on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 01:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Groups define themselves in relation to/by other groups.  Without a terrible, horrible, atrocity-committing THEM there is no good, righteous, beneficent US.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For some people, I need to add.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:04:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
El Cid as Crusader, or even jst a hero of Christianity, is total BS; but the first Crusade began four years before his death, and crusaders even fought the Moors on the Iberian Peninsula in the next few decades.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @moronwatch: Norway killer attended #ED ...
Norway killer attended #EDL demo in 2010 and had many #EDL FB contacts http://twitpic.com/5v2vxm /via @bantheedl

Twitter / @jamesdoleman: English Defence League att ...

English Defence League attempt to justify Far-Right rampage in Norway, truly foul http://twitpic.com/5ummdb #edl


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:49:46 AM EST
Are people going to stop using words like "rampage" or "killing spree" for what is evidently a terrorist attack?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 08:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The omnipotence of Al Qaeda and meaninglessness of "Terrorism" - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

For much of the day yesterday, the featured headline on The New York Times online front page strongly suggested that Muslims were responsible for the attacks on Oslo; that led to definitive statements on the BBC and elsewhere that Muslims were the culprits.  The Washington Post's Jennifer Rubin wrote a whole column based on the assertion that Muslims were responsible, one that, as James Fallows notes, remains at the Post with no corrections or updates.  The morning statement issued by President Obama -- "It's a reminder that the entire international community holds a stake in preventing this kind of terror from occurring" and "we have to work cooperatively together both on intelligence and in terms of prevention of these kinds of horrible attacks" -- appeared to assume, though (to its credit) did not overtly state, that the perpetrator was an international terrorist group. 

But now it turns out that the alleged perpetrator wasn't from an international Muslim extremist group at all, but was rather a right-wing Norwegian nationalist with a history of anti-Muslim commentary and an affection for Muslim-hating blogs such as Pam Geller's Atlas Shrugged, Daniel Pipes, and Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch.  Despite that, The New York Times is still working hard to pin some form of blame, even ultimate blame, on Muslim radicals (h/t sysprog):



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 09:12:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A nation's enemy within: The far-right loner who wiped out nearly 100 souls - Europe, World - The Independent
As well as frequenting neo-Nazi forums, he spoke admirably of British far-right groups, eulogising both the English Defence League (EDL) and Stop the Islamisation of Europe (SIOE). "I have on some occasions discussed with SIOE and EDL and recommended them to use conscious strategies," he wrote.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 04:24:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The far-right mass murderer also thought he was killing the enemy within: the internationalist, politically correct, feminist, culturally marxist left that was allowing his country to be destroyed.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 04:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tabloid Watch: The Sun's editorial(s) on Norway
In the aftermath of the tragic events in Norway on Friday, several media outlets began to speculate as to who was responsible and, predictably, fingers were pointed at Muslims.

The front page of Saturday's Financial Times referred to 'Islamist extremism fears', while the Sun mentioned a 'homegrown al-Qaeda convert' and a 'homegrown Islamic convert' in its coverage:


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:28:30 PM EST
In Der Spiegel article DoDo reference, he wrote:

"He had "an extremely strong psyche," writes Breivik, "stronger than anyone I've ever known." Nevertheless, it was "potentially biologically impossible" to survive the consequences of his actions. "I think I'll have to wait and find out."

So he wrote he expected not to survive, whether shot and killed, or suicide. But i've read that when the SWAT team asked him to put down his weapons, he did.

either afraid to die, or committed to live as symbol, or to make further statements. to me, an interesting aspect to fathom of the story.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:52:22 PM EST
He also states he took "a lot" of anabolic steroids. To prepare his body for the Templar task ahead.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I nailed the 2083 document, read a lot of it, skimmed the rest.

I think Breivik built the bomb, was highly aware of safety considerations and security - he socialized, enjoyed political conversations, had worries about friends visiting him and finding aluminum powder all over the place, had accidental visitors, including 4 Polish immigrants looking for work.

His descriptions of the entire acquisition process for knowledge, farming, fertilizer, weapons are very very detailed, including worries about his physical health, and admonitions to future followers on being prepared for a LOT of physical work (he used an iPod to keep boredom at bay and took regular breaks for violent video game play and movies.

Here's my take: his confirmation bias is for Christian Aryanism, which is pretty common for the elite, which he is: blonde, smart, good-looking, male.

He does a good job of criticizing liberalism, leftism, Marxism, but glaringly doesn't criticize his own ideology. He's a walking advertisement for compartmentalization theory.

He's no crazier than John Boehner or Sarah Palin.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:52:25 PM EST
He's no crazier than John Boehner or Sarah Palin.
------------
Yes, I agree...But they also can make much more people die if they ever come to real and absolute power.
Not that others made less people die...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 07:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In his "crusader" manifesto, the Oslo murdered says that the coming war is going to make WWII look like a picninc...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 01:22:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Taking a more global human view, it seems the way to prevent this kind of fiercely focused nuttiness is to inoculate kids with skepticism very early on. Not tolerance, but the ability to recognize nuttiness and faith-based thinking.

Of course, if you've any experience with kids of formative ages, it's very difficult to teach them skepticism, because they are designed to be gullible, as Richard Dawkins puts it, so they can learn quickly from their culture/parents.

This leads us to the conundrum of slow, skeptical learners versus ideologically infected fast learners. Does this mean that cool, thoughtful skeptics will always lose the evolutionary race? Will it always be crabs-in-a-bucket like it is now with a world of scrabbling nationalities/ethnicities/cultures with no ability to define what's best for humanity in general?

Multiculturalism and blind acceptance of intolerance is suicide, eh?

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 04:07:26 PM EST
The bastard has requested a prominent member of the Norwegian Labour Party as his defence counsel.
Lippestad said "I thought carefully about it. Everyone is entitled to a lawyer, even in a case like this, and I decided to accept."
Because I suppose Cultural Marxists deserve to die but only after they have been used for political cover by exploiting their commitment to democratic values.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 04:51:34 PM EST
Lippestad also represented Ole Nicolai Kvisler, who was convicted of the racially motivated murder of Benjamin Hermansen in 2002.

Murder of Benjamin Hermansen - Wikipedia

Benjamin Hermansen (May 29, 1985 - January 26, 2001) was a Norwegian-African boy whose father was born in Ghana, his mother was Norwegian. He was stabbed to death at Holmlia in Oslo, Norway, just before midnight on January 26, 2001 by people from the Neo-Nazi group BootBoys. Joe Erling Jahr and Ole Nicolai Kvisler were convicted of the murder and sentenced to 18 and 17 years in prison respectively. A third defendant, Veronica Andreassen, was convicted on a lesser charge of abetting bodily harm causing death and sentenced to three years in prison.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 05:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like everything else this tragedy will be misused for an agenda of...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 07:49:10 PM EST
ElPais.com: Una granja idílica para hacer bombas
Arild Tangen es uno de los "tres o cuatro" taxistas de Rena. Prestando la atención justa a los meandros de la carretera regional que lleva a la granja de Breivik, contaba ayer cómo lo recogió de allí la víspera del doble atentado. Relató un par de anécdotas sobre su "ropa de calidad" y su "amable trato". No parecía nervioso ni asustado, según Tangen, que añade "el muy bastardo". A Tangen, que es un tipo alto y rubio de 40 años, le contraría que Breivik matara "a jóvenes blancos y noruegos". Si tanto odiaba a los musulmanes, "que hubiera matado a jóvenes musulmanes o negros". Tangen es uno de los 614.717 noruegos (el 23% del censo) que votaron hace dos años al Partido del Progreso (FRP), la misma formación de derecha populista de la que Breivik formó parte entre 1999 y 2007. El partido antimusulmán y xenófobo es la segunda fuerza política del país.
An idyllic farm to make bombs
Arild Tangen is one of the "three of four" taxi drivers in Rena. Paying just the right amount of attention to the meandering regional road leading to Breivik's farm, he spoke yesterday of how he picked him up on the eve of the attack. He told a couple of anecdotes about his "quality clothing" and his "agreeable demeanor". He didn't seem nervous or afraid, according to Tangen, who adds "the bastard!". Tangen, a tall and blond 40-year-old guy, is upset that Breivik killed "white Norwegian youths". If he so hated muslims, "he should have killed muslims of blacks". Tangen is one of the 614,717 Norwegians (23% of registered voters) who voted two years ago for the Progress Party (FRP), the same populist right-wing group that Breivik belonged to between 1999 and 2007. The anti-muslim and xenophobic party is the second political party in the country.
And this, my friends, is why we're pretty much fucked.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 08:09:11 AM EST
Unless...they use this tragedy to ban all far right parties that are actually lately getting their way to European parliaments...or can I dream about it?
On the other hand even if they dare to do it it would kill democracy as we know it...How that saying goes : I do not agree with you but I will do anything for your right to say your opinion " or something like that...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:57:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you ban the 2nd largest party in parliament?

And, what do you do with the "mainstream" "centre-right"? (so-called, by the standards of 30 years ago, today's centre-right is far right and today's social democrats are centre-right)

Basically, blaming "multiculturalism" for the ills of our societies is a mainstream position, almost a central plank of mainstream conservatism. Along with anthropogenic climate change denial and "Europe is a Christian Land".

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 10:06:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shorter Arild Tangen: The bastard's spoiled things for the rest of us.

Which is also the line coming out of Breivik's favourite American blogs (h/t Making Light).

by Gag Halfrunt on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 05:21:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New Statesman - Glenn Beck: youth camp attacked in Norway sounds "like the Hitler Youth"

Never one to shy away from controversial remarks, right-wing pundit Glenn Back has caused an outcry with comments on his Premiere Radio Networks' show, The Glenn Beck Program.

Discussing the massacre in Norway, he says:

As the thing started to unfold, and then there was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler Youth or whatever -- I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing. But anyway, so there's this political camp, and some crazy man goes and starts shooting kids.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 12:29:16 PM EST
Norwegian Labour youth organization = Hitlerjugend? Check!

Lone nut theory? Check!

Who Could Have Predicted?

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 01:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Between the Hammer and the Anvil
The world's first "anti-Jihadist" mass-murderer isn't a suitable topic for my usual comedy bullshit, so I'll cut right to the chase here.

Melanie Phillips' site is down for now, and I sure as Hell don't link to Gates of Vienna et al, but you can take it from me that she and the gaggle of paranoids that make up the internet's nutty "Counter-Jihad" movement are loudly insisting that they don't advocate acts of violence or terrorism.  For now, let's assume that's true and move on from there.

What, exactly, do they imagine it is that they are advocating?


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 01:37:56 PM EST
Twitter / @StopBeck: O'Reilly offers proof Brev ...
O'Reilly offers proof Brevik isn't Christian: "It's impossible. You can't believe in Jesus and do mass murder."


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 01:17:48 PM EST
LOL

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 06:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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