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We're running out of virgins …

by Colman Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 06:55:02 AM EST

Seamus Coffey on Irish Economy points out, among other things, that despite a 20bn cut in government spending over the last few years the Irish exchequer current account balance is not falling.

This isn't a surprise to anyone who understands that cutting government spending also cuts government revenue. Unfortunately, as Michael Taft writes, this doesn't include the Serious People, whether in Ireland, in Europe or in the US:

The current debate over fiscal policy is based on a fundamental confusion – that the finances of a government are analogous to household finances. When spending in the household, exceeds income, goes the argument, the household must reduce its expenditure. People go out less, buy less, take less holidays, postpone major purchases, etc. The key point here is that if I cut my spending, this doesn’t reduce my wage or income. My wage is unaffected by me buying less books. Therefore, spending reductions are a net gain. It is a rational act at household level.

However, governments are not households. When a government cuts its spending, it cuts its revenue as well – because it cuts the economy’s revenue. This is fairly straight-forward and the ESRI has published two studies on this subject. […]

Cutting public employment, government spending on contracts to private business and cutting social welfare only serves to deepen and accelerate the recession. We know this. They don't.
A related problem is that the debate confuses means and ends. The goal is to reduce the deficit. However, the debate obsesses over spending cuts and tax increases and measures success in the amount of (downward) fiscal adjustments we can come up with. This is known at the ‘arithmetic’ approach and we see this popping up everywhere. If we cut x, then we save x – but as we know, cuts do not equal savings. We do not debate fiscal effectiveness; we debate different numbers on the revenue and spending balance sheet and delude ourselves that we are discussing fiscal stability. As Seamus has shown, however, this is not happening.

Most crucially, we don’t even acknowledge that the nation’s balance sheet is made up of three elements – revenue, spending and investment. The latter is rarely referred to even though it has been the driving force in the Irish recession. Investment is a tool of fiscal consolidation – a down-payment on future income; an activity that drives up demand in the short-term and continues to contribute to economic growth and revenue raising in the long-term through its supply input.

We are left with a wholly inadequate framework with which to understand, never mind debate, the continuing economic and fiscal crisis. All we get, with every fresh round of bad economic and fiscal news, is call to ‘tighten’ our belt even more, take ‘tough’ decisions, and make ‘sacrifices’. It is depressing that those calls are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

This is madness. And it's not unique to Ireland: Paul Krugman believes that President Obama is infected by the same mindset:
OK, here’s an unprofessional speculation: maybe it’s personal. Maybe the president just doesn’t like the kind of people who tell him counterintuitive things, who say that the government is not like a family, that it’s not right for the government to tighten its belt when Americans are tightening theirs, that unemployment is not caused by lack of the right skills. Certainly just about all the people who might have tried to make that argument have left the administration or are leaving soon.
The simple model of personal moral rectitude is seductive for people who can't or won't grasp the idea of feedback loops. We're screwed because we're terrible at thinking about systems, especially in public debate.


Display:
I'm guessing that the imports of virgins for the next six months are going to make a mess of Ireland's trade balance.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 06:55:35 AM EST
I know that for Ireland this may be OT - but for the US it is very important - and it it very important for the military town I live in.

When it comes to government spending and cutting, not all cuts and expenditures are equal. In particular there is a whole lot of less bang (sorry!) for the buck to engage in military spending than just about anything else.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 07:13:20 AM EST
Sure. What's the odds that huge cuts in military spending is what's going to happen in the US?

I didn't think so.

What's going to be targeted in both places is generally the most beneficial spending. You don't gut your public service during a recession. If it needed reform it should have been done during the good times. Of course, that didn't happen.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 07:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Odds are pretty good: cuts in salary, COLA increases, base housing, base schools, Tri-care health insurance, spousal support groups, MWR recreation facilities, retirement pensions...

Useless big ticket weapons programs that eat up taxpayers dollarsand provide kickbacks and guaranteed consulting jobs to people with stars on their collars? Not so much

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 at 06:21:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To me that's just conceding the best position to the right. Consider how Obama puts it

And nothing can be off limits, including spending in the tax code, particularly the loopholes that benefit very few individuals and corporations.  

Now, it would be nice if we could keep every tax break, but we can't afford them.  Because if we choose to keep those tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires, or for hedge fund managers and corporate jet owners, or for oil and gas companies pulling in huge profits without our help - then we'll have to make even deeper cuts somewhere else.  We've got to say to a student, `You don't get a college scholarship.'  We have to say to a medical researcher, `You can't do that cancer research.' We might have to tell seniors, `You have to pay more for Medicare.'

That isn't right, and it isn't smart.  We've got to cut the deficit, but we can do that while making investments in education, research, and technology that actually create jobs.  We can live within our means while still investing in our future.  That's what we have to do.  And I'm confident that the Democrats and Republicans in Congress can find a way to give some ground, make some hard choices, and put their shoulders to wheel to get this done for the sake of our country.


by rootless2 on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 at 05:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's what's being said. But what has been actually happening over the past 2 years even with Obama's stimulus in place is massive cutbacks in public service provision from the state and local governments which are budget constrained.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 03:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. The US has a federal system. And?
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:27:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The only entity that need not act like a household is the federal government. Obama choosing to do so appears criminally negligent to me.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:22:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We know this. They don't.

Or perhaps they do. But they don't care, because 'reform' concentrates their power, and that's all that really matters to them.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 08:30:06 AM EST
a fundamental confusion - that the finances of a government are analogous to household finances

This fallacy is trotted out so often that I have a job believing the pols really credit it as anything other than a facile talking point. For example, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, who surely knows it's not true, served it up as a self-evident truth on TV evening news on his last visit to France, (just a short time before getting arrested).

Problem is, it's a narrative that works for a fair-sized constituency of conservatively-minded folk (on the right or left). And another large group doesn't have the means of knowing one way or the other. Taken together, that doubtless adds up to a majority.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 08:32:46 AM EST
And most of those who learned the hard way from Keynes in the '30s are dead by now but the effect Upton Sinclair famously noted is very much alive:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it."

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 09:50:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Krugman: The Hangover Theory
The hangover theory, then, turns out to be intellectually incoherent; nobody has managed to explain why bad investments in the past require the unemployment of good workers in the present. Yet the theory has powerful emotional appeal. Usually that appeal is strongest for conservatives, who can't stand the thought that positive action by governments (let alone--horrors!--printing money) can ever be a good idea. Some libertarians extol the Austrian theory, not because they have really thought that theory through, but because they feel the need for some prestigious alternative to the perceived statist implications of Keynesianism. And some people probably are attracted to Austrianism because they imagine that it devalues the intellectual pretensions of economics professors. But moderates and liberals are not immune to the theory's seductive charms--especially when it gives them a chance to lecture others on their failings.
Also, Brad DeLong: What Have We Unlearned from Our Great Recession?
... Remember Orwell's Animal Farm? Every animal on the Animal Farm understands the basic principle of animalism: "four legs good, two legs bad" (with a footnote that, as Squealer the pig says, a wing is an organ of locomotion rather than manipulation and is properly thought of as leg rather than an arm--certainly not a hand).

"Four legs good, two legs bad," was simple enough for all the animals to understand. "Short-term countercyclical budget deficit in recession good, long-run budget deficit that crowds out investment bad," was too complicated for Congressmen and Congresswomen to understand. Given that, discretionary fiscal policy should be shunted off to the side as confusing. The Federal Reserve should do the countercycical stabiization job.

This also turned out not to be true, or not to be as true as we would like. ...



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 09:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a fundamental confusion - that the finances of a government are analogous to household finances
You can actually make it so by appropriate absurdization of institutional arrangements, as the EU has pioneered.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 09:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was back home in Minnesota over the past week where the government is shutdown due to a lack of a new budget agreement. Just about everyone on the street was talking about it as the shutdown started while I was there. Both in conversations I had with people and overhearing others out in public this analogy was used exclusively. I think this is simply the only model people have to understand government budgets.

The other killer with the analogy is that it presumes tax rates are a static thing, and the fight here is that democratic governor wants to raise taxes on the rich. [The republicans are more than willing to let the government rot while giving "fuck off" offers of a token increase in tax rates in exchange for a ban on abortion along with a few other barbaric horrors.]

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 05:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When you encounter people who assert that government finances are the same as family finances, as Reagan did so regularly, just ask them: "Can your family print money or mint coins? Of course this does not work in Europe or in respect to state budgets, but the state having its own bank, as with North Dakota, is the next best thing. A deficit is the way a sovereign with its own currency can, essentially, borrow money to engage in counter-cyclical spending. Prohibiting deficit spending is like denying individuals credit.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jul 8th, 2011 at 12:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
depends on how you use it.

For example, saving on household expenses by giving up costs of commuting to work is probably not a good idea.

by rootless2 on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 at 05:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The analogy is disastrous because the Treasury/Fed system is solvent by definition (as long as all its liabilities are un US$) and not budget-constrained.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 03:45:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see why:

The government budget is like a family budget - when it comes under strain you have to cut unnecessary expenses. For example, luxuries like the low tax treatment of capital gains have to be sacrificed so that necessities like food and light can be purchased. And cuts in expenses have to be intelligent. You might save some money short term by keeping your kids home from school, but that would be irresponsible longer term.  So we have to look at whether we really need all those military expenses ...

Relating government expenses to family expenses helps make it concrete. Just because the right has been good about using such analogies and the "left" wants to be pedantic doesn't make such analogies inherently right wing.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The government budget is like a family budget

The Treasury/Fed create money backed by the full faith and credit of themselves, therefore they are not like a household in that they're by definition solvent in their own currency without reference to standard balance sheet accounting.

That's a huge difference.

As a policy position, "the government is like a household" is consistent with the policy goal of protecting the purchasing power of rentiers' net worth, and inconsistent with the policy goal of full employment.

Therefore, "the government is like a household" cannot be a left policy position.

Note, however, that state and local governments are indeed like private entities and can become insolvent, only the Fed/Treasury system is not bound by a budget constraint because it has access to seniority income to fund expenses in the local currency.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You want to make policy concrete to ordinary people, so you relate it to things in their ordinary lives. People are not so stupid that they don't realize that most households can neither print money nor operate armies. So what? The US tax code implements a $1trillion/year transfer of money from the poor/middle to the rich. Casting that transfer as a luxury that "the household" can't afford may not be the way you want to speak of the problem, but it's absurd to claim that analogy used to drive the argument is inherently right wing.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:26:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"The government is a household" lends itself very strongly to "governments must balance their budgets."

The latter is, I hope you will agree, an inherently and indisputably right-wing narrative.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:46:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The analogy can lend itself to whatever one makes vivid. Don't pick at the metaphor, you'll make it bleed - as someone once said. The idea that in the long term the government should balance the budget seems to me to be perfectly reasonable. I am unconvinced that dedicating a large portion of tax revenue to rentier bond income is such a great idea.

For example, instead of increasing US debt, if the central bank simply destroyed its holdings of treasury bonds and perhaps also acquired the mortgage backed bond holdings that the Treasury is parking in some legal half-way house now, it would reduce the deficit and the long term debt burden.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:53:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea that in the long term the government should balance the budget seems to me to be perfectly reasonable.

In a nominally growing economy, balancing the sovereign budget is deflationary. Unless you believe that economic growth makes people want to hold a lower amount of purchasing power in government securities.

I am unconvinced that dedicating a large portion of tax revenue to rentier bond income is such a great idea.

Balancing the budget, by being inherently deflationary, does precisely this.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US government spends around $400b/year on debt interest. That's enough money to fund a hell of an infrastructure project - and it currently is a dedication of a large part of government revenues to rentier income.

The goal of the right is to increase that by starving revenue and creating financial crisis. At that point, the government is directing a huge percentage of tax revenue at bond investors and becomes captive to the demands of the bond market.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:57:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a complete red herring when discussing fiscal policy. It has nothing to do with the federal budget and everything to do with the Federal Reserve deciding to subsidise bondholders. If the Fed continues to decide to do that, no amount of balancing the budget will ever reduce the subsidy, and if the Fed decides to stop doing it you can run any deficit you like for as long as you like (barring dollarisation of your economy).

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
90% of people would look at a budget where the Central bank purchases and destroys $500B/year of treasury notes and the budget is in balance and be satisfied that the government was living within its means.

Deficit means borrowing to most of us.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:48:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But if the government sells $500B/year in treasury notes to the Fed it would be $500B/year in deficit. The budget would not be balanced. And there wouldn't be a problem because the Fed passes on its profit to the Treasury so any debt from the Treasury to the Fed is ultimately owed to itself.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 11:26:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem would only arise if the Fed ever sold its holdings back into the private market.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 11:53:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, so the situation we're in now is one in which the "debt ceiling" would be a binding constraint if all the Federal debt were in private hands, but since lots of it is in the hands of the Fed it shouldn't count. Except, for people who obsess about the government balance sheet, it does count.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 12:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in fact, even though I don't think that debt is problem free, the interest rate burden on the US government is historically low so the debt is certainly not an emergency issue.

The point I'm making is that balancing the government books does not have to carry a right wing argument. In fact,the Irish opposition should  be arguing that like any householder who has overextended on a mortgage, the Irish government needs to cut its losses, turn the assets over the the lender and try to make do on a more modest budget. The motivations for jumping up and down and yelling that governments are not like householders are unclear.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 12:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In arguing with conservatives (you should try it) I have used the argument that we borrow to buy houses and to send our kids to college and the government is in the same situation.  People understand that a lot better than "the senior debt issuance capability of the central bank .... "
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:56:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that since conservatives agree with progressives on the need for austerity, we need to start by arguing with progressives.

First convince yourself, then convince your friends, then convince your enemies. We're still in the situation where "our side" is part of the Hooverian consensus.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:14:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hooverian consensus? Where? Obama is certainly not calling for drastic reductions of Federal spending - he specifically exempts recovery, education, and infrastructure from his targets and also proposes that social benefits not be cut.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:00:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People also understand "there are people who want a job. There are jobs that need to be done. Having the government pay people to do these jobs means everyone wins. Except the banksters, who don't want people to have jobs, because people without jobs make better debt slaves."

There is no need to concede that you need to subsidise the banksters by balancing the budget.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:25:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who is conceding that you need to subsidize bankers?
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:52:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You do. Balancing the budget is a bankster subsidy, because it is deflationary as long as nominal GDP is growing.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:04:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No it's not. There was no deflation under Clinton as US budget went into surplus.  If the government balanced the budget by printing sufficient funds to cover the deficit, would that be deflationary?
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:43:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was no deflation under Clinton as US budget went into surplus.

Because clearly the downward part of the business cycle is an outlier and may be safely ignored.

If the government balanced the budget by printing sufficient funds to cover the deficit, would that be deflationary?

No, but it would be a very strange definition of "balancing your budget."

If you think that redefining balanced budgets is an easier sell than arguing that balanced budgets under the current definition is bad policy, then by all means go ahead. But do make clear to people who criticise you for wanting to balance the budget that you are using an idiosyncratic definition of that term. That will avoid many miscommunications.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 12:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You want to make policy concrete to ordinary people, so you relate it to things in their ordinary lives.

It so happens that macroeconomics is counterintuitive, so maybe ordinary people are natural-born common-sense conservatives when it comes to economics.

It's abcolutely fascinating that the only congresscritter able to think out of the Hooverian consensus is Ron Paul. From Dean Baker: Ron Paul's Surprisingly Lucid Solution to the Debt Ceiling Impasse

The basic story is that the Fed has bought roughly $1.6 trillion in government bonds through its various quantitative easing programs over the last two and a half years. This money is part of the $14.3 trillion debt that is subject to the debt ceiling. However, the Fed is an agency of the government. Its assets are in fact assets of the government. Each year, the Fed refunds the interest earned on its assets in excess of the money needed to cover its operating expenses. Last year the Fed refunded almost $80 billion to the Treasury. In this sense, the bonds held by the Fed are literally money that the government owes to itself.
As long as the Congressional Democrats keep trying to appear serious and Obama tries to appear reasonable, it's only going to be people like Ron Paul, who know they are considered unreasonable and unserious but don't care, that are going to speak sense about the Depression of the 2010s.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:20:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like this plan - which is similar to a plan I've been trying to push for a year in which the Fed simply buys the stock of financial assets held by the mortgage agencies of the government.

But to me the optimal outcome would be a settlement that takes away subsidies of the richest companies followed by a FRB action of that sort.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:45:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, although it violates the narrative of the "left", the Democrats did come up with a reasonable plan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/senate-democrats-draft-debt-reduction-plan/2011/07/08 /gIQAFQbS4H_story.html

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 11:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I love the WaPo's narrative setting: Senate Democrats have drafted a sweeping debt-reduction plan that would slice $4 trillion from projected borrowing over the next decade without touching the expensive health and retirement programs targeted by President Obama.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 11:29:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So talk about how you're going to encourage job-creating projects, not about balancing the budget. Because people don't care whether the federal government is in balance as long as they can find a half decent job.

On making policy concrete for ordinary people, which includes congresscritters, here's Brad DeLong: What Have We Unlearned from Our Great Recession?

Remember Orwell's Animal Farm? Every animal on the Animal Farm understands the basic principle of animalism: "four legs good, two legs bad" (with a footnote that, as Squealer the pig says, a wing is an organ of locomotion rather than manipulation and is properly thought of as leg rather than an arm--certainly not a hand).

"Four legs good, two legs bad," was simple enough for all the animals to understand. "Short-term countercyclical budget deficit in recession good, long-run budget deficit that crowds out investment bad," was too complicated for Congressmen and Congresswomen to understand. Given that, discretionary fiscal policy should be shunted off to the side as confusing. The Federal Reserve should do the countercycical stabiization job.

I suppose you're arguing "the federal government is like a household" is easy enough for congresscritters and voters to understand. But when cutting spending fails to reduce the deficit, how do you explain it to people?

Unfortunately Macroeconomics is counterintuitive:

That doesn't mean you can't learn from history.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:27:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For example, luxuries like the low tax treatment of capital gains have to be sacrificed so that necessities like food and light can be purchased.

Raising taxes on the rich is an excellent policy on general principle. But while it will reduce the size and malignancy of the next bubble to come around, it will not solve a serious industrial depression that is already here.

You have to have the state spend money to do that. In large quantities. Preferably on useful things like an overhaul of the rail net and power grid. But in a pinch, you can get rid of the private debt crisis by paying people to build battleships and then scuttle them over an ocean trench.

Of course, you can also get rid of the private debt crisis by forcing lenders to write off all bad loans, and Lehman'ing their asses when they become insolvent as a result. That's the small-government solution to a debt crisis, and if you can do it fast enough and decisively enough it should work just fine.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You came in at the middle of the story. The US right wing,deliberately took a path of loading the government down with huge debt and subsidies for the rich, and crippling its revenue both for the immediate benefits in terms of graft, and for the longer term benefits of protecting incumbents and making social spending unsustainable. Solving the revenue problem as Obama proposes has the political benefits of damaging the finances of the sponsors of the far right and at the same time taking away the justification for the destruction of social spending.   To me, arguments of the type that you and Krugman make miss the political reality entirely. The US far right has spent 30 years producing a certain dynamic and you can't just draw a fucking diagram and expect to refute it. Keynes, who was painfully aware of the political constraints on economic policy would have found Krugman's pedantic fumbling very amusing.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:20:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You came in at the middle of the story. The US right wing,deliberately took a path of loading the government down with huge debt

And the point is that this is not a "load" for the government, since the government is free to, at any point, decide that it will not pay interest on this debt. To continue to subsidise bondholders is a political decision, not an economic imperative.

and for the longer term benefits of protecting incumbents and making social spending unsustainable.

Which is only possible if you accept the narrative that the government has to fund its expenditures.

There is no such thing as "unsustainable government expenditures." There is such a thing as "unsustainable current accounts balance." There is such a thing as "unsustainable aggregate demand." There is such a thing as "unsustainable resource use." Those are the operational constraints, and if you design your policy around "fiscal sustainability" rather than real operational sustainability, then you are needlessly and uselessly crippling yourself.

Solving the revenue problem as Obama proposes has the political benefits of damaging the finances of the sponsors of the far right

Which part of "raising taxes on the rich is an excellent policy on general principle" did you fail to parse?

I will never, ever argue that raising taxes on rich fuckers is a bad policy. I will, however, argue that it will not solve the problem that you were marketing it to solve in your defence of deflationary fiscal policy above.

And if you do not solve that problem, you'll be out on your ass after the next election. At which point it will be much, much easier to lower the taxes you got raised than it would have been to cut the expenditures you conceded to get those tax hikes.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a politically naive point of view. In theory, the Irish and Greek and Spanish governments are free to repudiate debt, but in practice they are not - not without huge costs. The US right would love to reduce the US government to that sort of bond market client status and have worked hard to get there.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In theory, the Irish and Greek and Spanish governments are free to repudiate debt, but in practice they are not - not without huge costs.

What costs?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:16:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Political cost to the EU.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:18:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And that's sad.

But not relevant for Greece and Spain, as long as the EU insists on being a net negative for their industrial development.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:23:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The PIGS are operating under an "EU Stockholm's syndrome". The motivation to "be good Europeans" is extremely strong. The idea that the EU could be deliberately damaging their economies is nigh unfathomable.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:26:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that a serious question? Those countries are under the heel of the ECB much as third world countries are under the heels of the world bank and IMF. The few that have successfully defied the bankers only show how difficult it is. Argentina is an exception and still finds it hard to elude the chains.

Capitalism is a world system in which those who control the flow of capital exercise inordinate power over those who depend on it. In theory, anti-capitalist revolution is an option. In practice, it seems not immediately likely.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:33:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that is a serious question. Please outline the practical difficulties that the Greek population and industrial plant would face as a result of default and withdrawal from the EMU, and compare and contrast them with the difficulties currently faced as a result of compliance with the Maastrict rules.

Because whenever I look at their situation, I see nothing to justify remaining in the EMU but craven idiocy and blind, indoctrinated loyalty to a failed economic ideology. You may believe that blind indoctrination into a failed economic ideology is an exculpatory circumstance for elected officials, but I do not.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 12:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's what would happen. First, there would be a local capital strike as anyone with hard currency fled the local economy. Civilian employment would collapse with millions of people out of work. Food and fuel imports would cease and there would be food shortages immediately and collapse of transportation and of the electrical grid. The far right would organize paramilitaries and begin the standard stages of an insurrection supported by elements of the military.  Hospitals would shut down because of fuel shortages and people would start dying. The water supply would fail. Macedonian and Cypriot radicals (on both sides) would take up arms.

You want to play at revolution without any notion of consequence.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 12:43:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First, there would be a local capital strike as anyone with hard currency fled the local economy.

They can only do that with the cooperation of the Greek central bank, which controls all clearing between local and foreign banks.

Civilian employment would collapse with millions of people out of work. [...] The far right would organize paramilitaries and begin the standard stages of an insurrection supported by elements of the military.

You should really be using past tense when discussing events that have already occurred.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 01:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to make sure it's clear: anyone can come up with a nice optimal plan. My plan would be that the government embark on a massive infrastructure rebuild and financing of new green energy all using money printed by the Fed without borrowing. However, I'm not in charge - and Obama's not in charge either. He is constrained by the political and institutional power of finance and other elites and by the success of the marketing of right wing bullshit to the public. It's probably an inescapable product of the class basis of the contemporary "left" that there is such a tendency to proposing "clever ideas" as if one will be awarded full marks and a teaching stipend for being smarter than everyone else.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:43:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, I'm not in charge - and Obama's not in charge either. He is constrained by the political and institutional power of finance and other elites and by the success of the marketing of right wing bullshit to the public.

That is a fairly banal statement. What your critics are arguing is not that Obama is unconstrained by institutional insipidity. It is that you are exaggerating those constraints in order to relieve Obama of responsibility for right-wing policies that he pursues by underselling his discretionary power. That you are, not to put too fine a point upon it, engaged in apologetics rather than institutional analysis.

And while apologetics has a place in politics, I would rather you saved your particular brand for those who need to be persuaded to hold their nose and vote for anybody with a D after his name because the candidate with an R after their name belongs in a padded cell. Everybody here understands that well enough that I find it vaguely insulting that you think we require constant reminders.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:56:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But in fact, your complaint is not with the policies, it is with the wording. You, and Krugman, are making a marketing critique in guise of an economic argument. Federal spending and infrastructure spending in particular has gone up under Obama.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:02:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Federal spending and infrastructure spending in particular has gone up under Obama.

When you add state and local spending, has public sector spending gone up, still?

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:05:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama does not have much influence on state and local spending.In fact, my critique of his original stimulus is that it sent too much money to the states, allowing right wing state governments to hide the effects of their idiot policies through the 2010 elections.  If California refuses to tax the property of wealthy corporations and individuals and insists on dedicating much of its revenue to water projects subsidizing agri-business and to a shameful prison system, that's not really something he can fix.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:15:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are state and local governments funded out of own resources exclusively, or do they have a federal allowance?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:17:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They have both. For example, the state government of Texas 4 years ago decided to cut property taxes statewide, essentially defunding education - fortunately for the right wing government, the Obama administration supplied them with a $20billion stimulus fund which they used to disguise the effects of their policies until after the 2010 elections which they won on a platform of successful budget management. Additional stimulus would have allowed them to paste the same illusion over their continuing project.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, because Obama used his bully pulpit to reinforce the damaging (to the left) state as household narrative.

He had a choice of narratives to build his speech around, and he chose the narrative of common sense conservatism.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You assume your premise. Your premise is that the household income story is inherently right wing and then you conclude that it is inherently right wing. I dispute that. The argument that the government cannot afford generous tax subsidy of Exxon and also must protect vital expenses for the future like education and infrastructure is one that can easily be made via this story.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:11:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you or do you not agree that deflation is an objectively right-wing policy objective?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know if deflation is always right wing. You'll note that bond investors in the US are essentially unhappy about deflation because it reduces the vigorish. PIMCO has been bitching non-stop about the low rates on US bonds. The current deflation has also been a big benefit to mortgage holders of variable rate mortgages who have been spared the resets that bankers were counting on. If interest rates had gone up over the last year, there would be another couple of million homeless.

Right wing policies are those to protect and fortify the status of the elites and to subdue everyone else. Those policies can make use of varying economic schemes as circumstances change. No?

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:27:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know if deflation is always right wing. You'll note that bond investors in the US are essentially unhappy about deflation because it reduces the vigorish [interest rate?]. PIMCO has been bitching non-stop about the low rates on US bonds.

Interest rates and inflation are only tangentially related. It is perfectly possible for the central bank to fix nominal interest rates wherever it wants them regardless of the rate of inflation. The notion that interest rates have to follow inflation is itself a piece of bondholder ideology, not an operational necessity.

Right wing policies are those to protect and fortify the status of the elites and to subdue everyone else. Those policies can make use of varying economic schemes as circumstances change. No?

Deflation benefits net creditors, because it raises the real interest rate. The central bank can decide to compensate the net debtors by lowering the policy rate (which is a transfer from the government to the net debtors, or rather reducing the government's seigniorage income from its debtors and reducing its subsidy to bondholders). But first, the central bank could always decide to do that - it is not an option that it only has in a deflationary environment. And second, it cannot lower the policy rate past the zero bound.

Ultimately, if you want to cut the subsidies to bondholders, you should pursue zero policy rate (except in very rare cases), stabilise demand through fiscal policy and not worry unduly about the rate of inflation until it passes 6 or 7 per cent pro annum.

Now, if you want to argue that the dispossessed are net creditors, and therefore benefit from higher real interest rates, be my guest. It's not a wholly impossible case to make (if you argue that the dispossessed have fixed nominal wages and public transfers, they work almost but not quite like creditors). But it's not an easy one either.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 01:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The way it currently works is that Treasury bonds are auctioned with rates set by market, not by decree.

Given the bargaining situation of US workers right now, inflation would destroy their purchasing power.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 01:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The way it currently works, the Federal Reserve cannot be prevented from fixing the price in these auctions, should it want to do so.

Given US industrial policies right now, deflation is destroying US workers' jobs, and therewith their ability to bargain for a wage in the first place.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 01:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that true? And what if nobody buys them?

Of course the Fed could just fund the deficit by purchasing bonds directly at least until the dollar dropped in value too much.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 01:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course the Fed could just fund the deficit by purchasing bonds directly at least until the dollar dropped in value too much.

The rate paid on 10-year bonds has next to no bearing on the value of the dollar. The actual additional spending by current bondholders if the interest rate was dropped to zero is minuscule, and only spending dollars that the US economy is incapable of delivering goods and services to cover can reduce the value of the dollar relative to real goods and services.

Of course they could attempt to shift into foreign currency, which would temporarily depress the dollar. But since the dollar is well above where you'd want it to be under a pro-industrial policy stance, that is not a problem.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 01:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"only spending dollars that the US economy is incapable of delivering goods and services to cover can reduce the value of the dollar relative to real goods and services."

For a nation that has recycled cardboard boxes used to house imports from China as one of its main exports and that uses 1/5 of the world's oil, those are serious concerns.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 01:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but dumping the interest rate on 10-year Treasuries to zero would not create new consumer spending in a volume statistically distinguishable from zero.

The lazy money would piss and moan about it. But they make no productive contribution to society, so fuck them.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 02:31:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Part of the resilience of this belief is how it ties into a larger belief structure = that of economics as morality play.

Bad things happened and we must do penance.

If you accept the Keynesian alternative, then other parts of the structure, such as:

The rich deserve their wealth and power, otherwise they would not have received it in our market economy....

start to come under scrutiny...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2011 at 12:07:26 PM EST
  Speaking of mythology, it might be a good time to retire the junk theory that "PiP" (people in (high) power) are essentially idiots, fools, who can't recognize what many of the rest of ordinary humanity has not-a-whole-lot-of-trouble grasping about economic basics.

  IOW, if we can "get it" that the neo-con theories are a sham and a con, then, friends, so can "they"--the people who peddle the bullshit.

   If we can recognize that the Madison Avenue publicity BS isn't really bought into by the corporate flacks who sell that stuff--that they are simply doing what sells and they don't give much of a damn about the facts or the ethics of the matter-- then, again, friends, maybe it's time to recognize that the lobbyists and their corporato-governmental clientele also know that what they're doing amounts to shoveling shit to the public, that doing so seems to still "work" much of the time to and so they keep shoveling it.

    Or, in short, "Yes.  They're lying.  And they know perfectly well that they're lying."  It's the job.  They put their consciences to sleep a long time ago.  They see their little children sleeping in safety and comfort in a world where millions of children live, suffer and die in poverty and misery and the question of whether the PR people are going to continue to lie and shovel shit doesn't even arise.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 at 07:13:45 AM EST
I'd say it is half true.

True in that of couse, there are a lot of liars and they lie for a reason.

But we should put to rest another myth -that our leaders are part of an intellectual elite.

Many of them are top of the neurosis distribution more than anything else. Even in the French system that picks a lot of politicians from ENA, you could argue that they have an incentive to practice sprouting out conventional wisdom rather than bringing personal understanding. And of course, Sarkozy had a terrible curriculum. He's just not particularly intelligent, what distinguishes him is that he has been completely obsessed by squasing all around him since before he was born.

I often see plenty of demonstrably intelligent people struggling to grasp the implications of a macro-economical discourse, and how it can appear counter-intuitive when all you see around you is micro. You may argue that it's difficult because they are not specialists of the field. But again, those in power are not selected on the basis of their ability to hold the role, but on their ability to rise through ranks. Look who now heads the IMF.

So, I would not be surprised if quite a few of them really did not understand it. They would probably not care much if they did understand, of course.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 07:07:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems that we now have around 30 exhibits of what I have just said.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 12:28:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  I think that's an interesting view of things and there's certainly something to what you point out---that is, to some extent, there's less than complete understanding (or care about) these complicated issues, "even" at "the top".

   On the other hand, there's also something going on which concerns the routine attempt by PiP to manage and manipulate mass public opinion to some at least minimally effective extent; and in that there has to be more than dumb luck at work because to consistently fail at it would meant that the supporting "logic," the conceptual premises on which PiP rely to hold their places, would fail, collapse; and in numerous places in North Africa, we've been given recent lessons on what ensues from this collapse.

   So, to re-state, PiP can't be entirely just "winging it" (depending on dumb luck) nor entirely ignorant of the counter-claims and arguments which refute their own power-base's premises.  They must to an extent counter or disarm those through various mechanisms, rhetorical and other.  This is power's self-preservation at work.  By the way, the visible political office-holders aren't necessarily the ones who have the best understanding of these things.  Many of them do what they're told by others on whom their positions and resources depend.  Sarkozy used plain dumb obstinancy to eventually attain his elected office; but he didn't put himself into power--a group effort did that.  All Sarkozy has to do is front for a plausible line of argument; if he fails because the plausibility is lacking, his betters are responsible for replacing it with a "new and improved" version of mythology.  If Sarkozy fails to represent that effectively, he'll be replaced---not only by his opponents but by his erstwhile backers, too.

  No?

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Tue Jul 12th, 2011 at 07:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, to re-state, PiP can't be entirely just "winging it" (depending on dumb luck) nor entirely ignorant of the counter-claims and arguments which refute their own power-base's premises.

There are two different statements here: 1) That TPTB are not just "winging it" and that 2) TPTB are aware of what people outside their echo chamber have to say.

The first is obviously true. The second is almost certainly false. You do not need to be aware of the opposition's reasoning to perform effective social control. It is sufficient that you imprint your own talking points early and often on those becoming or aspiring to become Very Serious People, at least if you design those talking points with a modicum of care.

It is an astonishing experience (at least it was for me the first time I did it, which perhaps goes to show that I remain insufficiently cynical) to set side-by-side a textbook in physics, economics and sociology. A physics textbook is, for lack of a better term, confident. It will show its work, it will show you the experimental tests, and it will tell you the boundaries of the model's validity.

A sociology textbook is also confident, but it is a different sort of confidence. It is a confidence in methods more than in results: It will happily tell you when there are sane and sensible people who disagree with its conclusions, and that they have unimpeachable reasons for doing so.

A Serious economics textbook is... insecure. Insecure in its results, and insecure in the soundness of its methodology. Right from the word "go," it will over-emphasise the degree of consensus within the field, and pre-emptively defend itself from critiques that you have never heard of, that it will not bother to explain nor, frequently, even explicitly name.

As such, a reader without the background required to recognise the weaknesses in its narrative will come away with a set of heuristics for dismissing foreign arguments without examining them closely. A skill set more conducive to certain sectarian religious practises than to the broadening of human understanding.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jul 12th, 2011 at 08:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since that's hard to believe, I guess he's just making it up as he goes along.

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2011/07/trickle-down-keynsiansim.html

by rootless2 on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 at 05:49:40 PM EST
Please. It's the author of the article who neither understands Keynes nor bothered to actually read what Krugman writes. The misrepresentation is staggering from the very first sentence.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 03:26:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The lack of specificity in your critique is hard to overlook.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:03:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really?
The first sentence is "According to Professor Krugman and his many internet acolytes, cutting any government spending in our poorly performing economy would be a disaster because all government spending is stimulative."

Which is a lie. He ,ever said that.
(Well, of course all government spending is stimulative, but the stimulus can be incredibly small if it's spent abroad, all you'll get is whatever the people getting it will spend on your shores).

He DID mention that the government spending that was under threat was stimulative.

Let's see the second sentence just for fun:
"If that's the case, the near doubling of the Federal budget under George W. Bush and the parallel rise in state spending (much of it driven by the unfunded mandates of the Republican Congress and President) should have produced a thriving economy by 2009 when President Obama took the oath of office."

Wow. First, that completely ignores Krugman's many explanations about various multiplier effects. Second, that certainly is not in real, population-deflated or GDP-deflated terms, but I guess the first sentence kind of set the standards.

The killer is: were we in a liquidity trap throughout the Bush embarassment? I thought we weren't, indeed.

When an article starts with two such howlers I don't take the time to deconstruct it all -I am already too busy. What I certainly don't do is quote it to pretend I have refuted one of the best economists ever with a phenomenal track record of being right about his predictions (DeLong even said that the one thing he had learnt about the past five years, and that he found quite scary, was that Krugman was always right and that, when your painstaking study led you to believe otherwise, remember that he's always right).

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 12:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you or Obama seen or understood the latest payroll figures?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 03:43:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unemployment is terrible. What follows?

There is a certain constrained political and economic situation and I don't see how panic improves either.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:04:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unemployment is worse that Obama's stimulus plan predictions, as Krugman warned. You claim Krugman is wrong and Obama is right. Obama doesn't know about economics. His team designed the stimulus for him. They were wrong in his projections and Krugman was right in his criticism 30 months ago.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:05:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is extensive journalistic discussion of the stimulus package proposal that Obama's team produced. They were not operating with a blackboard but with a highly fractured political system in which one disciplined and powerful political party was and is intent on sabotaging any recovery.

And my argument is that Krugman is wrong about Keynes analysis of stimulus. Not all government spending has the effect of boosting the economy. For example, the money the Irish government spends paying interest to bondholders has a de-stimulating effect on the economy. I'm sure Krugman knows this, but it would interfere with his pissy whining to actually distinguish between productive and non-productive spending.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:12:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
one disciplined and powerful political party was and is intent on sabotaging any recovery

So why does Obama adopt the narrative angle most favourable to that party's sabotage project?

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 09:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Aha, first let's note that this is a marketing argument not an economic argument. You propose that the "narrative angle" favors the right. But that's incorrect. When you are marketing against a successful branding campaign, you would be stupid to simply argue that "Coke tastes like shit" because the essence of marketing is that people agree emotionally and don't apply their critical thinking to it. Obama is saying, "yes, government needs to balance its books, like any household and the way to do it is to stop the unfair tax treatment of crony companies and the waste of government money into subsidy of crony companies". That's a far more powerful narrative angle than "the government can print money so it's not really a problem".
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:09:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But it's a narrative angle that reinforces "balanced budgets" more strongly than "stop funding cronies" since the first is the "truth" and the second the policy choice derived from the truth. The right agrees with the truth but proposes a different policy: "cut entitlements".

Since the right and the left agree that "the budget has to be balanced by cutting entitlements", and they just disagree about whose entitlement to cut, and I happen to believe "the budget has to be balanced" is actually deflationary and against a full employment policy objective, I have to object to the narrative angle.

From a narrative point of view common sense conservatism has it easier. That is a difficult political problem. But it's the one we should be addressing in strategy and I think Obama or his speechwriters are making a mistake by adopting what I see as the enemy's frame.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How you can get from that speech that "the budget has to be balanced by cutting entitlements" is beyond me. The argument he is making is exactly the opposite - the government cannot afford tax gifts to the wealthy unless it is going to cut benefits, something that should not be done. And since Obama repeatedly says he can cut medicare expenses without cutting benefits - even that part does not match your take.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Currently there's a lot of "entitlements" of the wealthy. Obama wants to cut that. The right wants to cut entitlements to the poor.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Example of entitlement for wealth: Spain's tax incentives for real estate purchases. Cutting it is about the only "austerity" policy by the Spanish government that I think is a net positive. Of course the right wing opposition is campaigning on reinstating it.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:24:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is both narrative and economic. Because I don't believe the budget needs to be balanced as a matter of principle.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:15:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially not in a recession, and as long as you're not under a gold standard.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They are discussing 10 years.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They need to start after the recession is well and truly over, which is not the case if you look at employment.

How many jobless recoveries in a row is this, already?

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:20:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But joblessness is not due only to the recession - it results from longer term trends that cannot be ameliorated by "stimulus". Aside from everything else, the theory that "stimulus" will overcome long-term capital mis-allocation problems is one that I have not seen justified.
 
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 10:41:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but reorienting capital allocation on a massive scale cannot be left to "the market" and the state can only do it through deficit spending.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 11:22:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which, of course, is why the administration is proposing infrastructure expenditures are exempt from the budget cutting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/us/politics/16infrastructure.html

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 01:24:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're going to play those kinds of games, then just admit balancing the budget is silly.

The EU does the same: borrowing from the European Investment Bank doesn't count against member states national debt.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 02:54:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course they are playing these games. The public doesn't give a fuck about the technical details - they want to know the government is run on a sound basis and is being careful with their taxes.  That's why Krugman is an idiot- he takes a well crafted political ploy to push for good politics and pedantically fixes on the analogy as one he doesn't like.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 03:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The household analogy is factually wrong and is of no obvious use in arguing for leftwing policy proposals. After all it says nothing about distributional issues and sets an arbitrary limit to government action to achieve full employment.
Now if you happen to be a politician there is a case for using popular misconceptions to argue for your preferred outcomes. In this case taxing the rich and ending the wars.* But there really is no reason for Krugman to do so.

*Not that I'm convinced that these actually are the preferred outcomes. Talk is cheap and most leftists will vote for the Ds whatever they do whereas pissing off contributes may actually harm reelection prospects.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 04:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How can an analogy be "factually wrong"?  What arbitrary limit? The analogy does not suggest the budget be balanced every year or every 10 years and is highly non-technical. A government that prints all it spends is not borrowing.

Given the "lefts" electoral and organizational success, I don't know if lecturing about proper framing of policy proposals is something it should indulge in. I'm certainly not telling Krugman how he should speak, but I'd like him to stop issuing ignorant diatribes based on his theory of how Obama should speak. A mastery of bog standard orthodox economics does not make one an expert on political marketing. And to condemn a speech that is substantively about how the rich manipulate the tax code for their gain as "right wing" because you don't like the wording is pedanticism gone wild.

by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 04:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Krugman has been warning since Obama's inauguration that his stimulus plan was half the size it needed to be and that the evolution of employment figures would disappoint.

He also predicted that people would then conclude that Keynesian stimulus doesn't work.

He's been right on both counts.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 03:47:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's actually wrong. Krugman proposed a stimulus number smaller than Obama eventually passed. As the political process was going on, Krugman raised his estimate, but not by 100%. And the size of the stimulus package was not determined by academic analysis but by political calculus of what could be passed. The Obama administration had to deal with the very real possibility that a bigger number would lose the essential conservative democratic/marginal republican votes needed to pass any stimulus.
Finally, the Obama administration actually invested hundred of billions more in stimulus than was in the recovery act via other programs. The pedanticism of the "left" is truly annoying.
by rootless2 on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 at 08:08:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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