Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.

Disruption in the UK

by ChrisCook Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 08:30:25 AM EST

There is in the UK an evolving police strategy, particularly in dealing with the drug traffic, known as 'Disruption': it's an updated approach to the First Commandment of fraud investigation - 'Follow the Money' - and along the same lines as the tax evasion charge that saw off Al Capone.

This recent article outlines the Disruption strategy's use in Scotland

Scottish FBI arrests over 70 Scottish Crime Lords


MORE than £33 million worth of drugs have been seized and a record number of crime bosses arrested in the past year, according to figures that reveal how Scottish police are cracking down on serious and organised crime.

The Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency (SCDEA) - nicknamed Scotland's FBI - said it had been able to use better intelligence to pinpoint "soft spots" in sophisticated criminal operations.

It said more so-called "Mr Bigs" than ever had been arrested in 2010-11. Over that period, 73 of the 195 people taken into custody were "level 3" criminals and effectively ringleaders of major crime gangs, compared with 136 arrests, with 67 at level three, the previous year.

An interesting take follows below from someone I know in London who has pretty good high-level contacts. I take it with a pinch of salt, of course, since as far as the authorities go, I favour cock-up over conspiracy every time.

Rather than the crack-down he clearly favours, I think - as a Civil Liberties type myself - a better approach might actually be to treat the causes, not the symptoms. ie legalise and regulate drug use, and give people something useful and fulfilling to to do instead of dealing and using drugs.



  1. The Met has of late had some new and much better intelligence on the drugs trade in the UK, which of course is centered here in London, There was, for example, a huge haul of high grade narcotics on a cabin cruiser in Southampton just recently.

  2. The Met has been putting a lot of pressure on the drug barons in London - probably a planned operation to go on for several weeks before they say anything about it. Deliberately so.

  3. The man shot over the weekend, who apparently pulled a gun before he was shot by the police, was himself a leading light in the drugs trade in that part of London. The riots that followed locally were simple retaliation.

  4. The drugs barons are losing credibility among their own commanders and foot soldiers, who increasingly fear that they too are now vulnerable; they simply do not know where the police are going to strike next.

  5. So the drug barons urgently needed a show of strength, to show they could still call the shots. They organised the riots. The riot leaders have been filmed in urgent phone calls on their mobiles (cell phones) organising the next step. The summonses to arms and the next centre of rioting have been made through Twitter; it is planned, not spontaneous.

  6. The riots have been concentrated almost exclusively in those specific districts of London known to be the centres of the capital's drugs trade; very conspicuously so - that's where the footsoldiers generally live and so can be marshalled quickly. Obviously some local tearaways just want to join in as well, but the drug barons won't exactly object to that.

  7. It is (highly unofficially) in the police's interests to let the riot spread somewhat, to see how many rioters the drug barons can bring onto the streets, to see how many of them the police can photograph.

  8. Dramatic television coverage of shop and buses burning should also persuade the liberal tendency (of whom there are many, especially here in London) that the Metropolitan Police would now be fully justified in taking somewhat tougher action; the cinema-verite TV footage makes even the normal citizenry suddenly turn angry and militant. The police could then obtain greater powers without all those Civil Liberties types promptly jumping up and down in their cages.

  9. Sorted.

Display:
David Cameron meets police over London riots as relations hit low point | UK news | guardian.co.uk

The parallels with the 1980s are everywhere; in the burnt-out buildings, the looting, the anger of an apparently disenfranchised youth and the agonising over what caused an urban uprising which police have labelled the worst disorder in living memory.

There is one significant difference, however. During the riots of the 1980s, when Brixton and Toxteth burned and PC Keith Blakelock was hacked down with a machete as he fled for his life in Broadwater Farm, the police could count on the full support of the government. Margaret Thatcher was in power and the police were seen as an unquestioning arm of the state.

On Tuesday as David Cameron sits around the table with the home secretary, Theresa May, and senior police officers the ambience will not be a warm one. Relations between the country's top police officers and the Conservative leadership are at an all-time low, with senior Tory sources briefing against the country's top officers and they in turn speaking openly of the "stupidity" of government policy.

so this, and articles like it would point towards police being given  extra powers to assuage their  problems?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 09:20:05 AM EST
European Tribune - Comments - Disruption in the UK
The summonses to arms and the next centre of rioting have been made through Twitter; it is planned, not spontaneous.

There has been much discussion of this, reporters have been asking for these twitter messages, but there has been no sign of them tracking them down. On the other hand, there has been a large suggestion that the majority of  this happening through Blackberry messaging, numerous reporters requesting BBM messages in confidence, and through those going out to sites where current activity is occurring.

One would have to ask, what a group of poor kids are doing communicating through Blackberries? and why they need its more secure messaging system, and that could add to your friends thesis


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 09:28:10 AM EST
But I do see it too as tipping more towards conspiracy (and selling a mythical Met competence)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 09:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed: we are probably seeing unintended consequences here. A new intake of public order police have maybe had it too easy kettling peaceful demonstrations and had no experience of serious disruption.

A contact of mine in Bethnal Green saw the Halifax next door smashed and ransacked, and the culprits were not from the local ethnic group, but appeared to have arrived from up the road in Hackney.

Meanwhile the Turkish area of Dalston escaped unscathed firstly because the locals were standing guard  and possibly secondly because among them there would probably have been some very heavy Turkish 'entrepreneurs' from the area.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:06:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another question I'd have to ask is how does this compare to a normal years seizures? are they being more effective? theres been a rule of thumb that  only 1/10 of the drugs that is coming into the country gets seized. Now it isn't unusual for local supply disruption to happen in an individual network for several days or weeks, people usually dismiss this as a problem higher up the supply chain.  for many years now, there has been  very little effect of enforcement, flows have been such that street prices are now lower than they were twenty years ago.

If this is the mark of the high levels of organisations being rolled up, then you'd think that those organisations would be pulling arms and legs inside their shells. As of yet, talking to people I see no signs of any shortages develop from the few people I have talked to who do this kind of thing. Although they have said that they do forsee some problems in that it will be more risky to move stuff about, as people doing this are more likely to be stopped to be checked for high end electronics/petrol bombs etc.

Another thing is historically major arrests have had very little impact on the trading networks, at one point it was considered that the Welsh LSD network was manufacturing the vast majority of all consumed in the UK if not all. Operation Julie it was thought would disrupt the supply for six months, when it took out the top level manufacturing and supply of the drug for the whole country. She shortage lasted for six days before other groups laid their hands on alternative supply.

The more I think of it the less likely your unnamed sources thesis appears.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:21:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The links in the Business Insider quoted here explore the drug draught connection.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:27:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
reading the PDF it reckons that the shortage is at a much higher level than the UK. which also suggests problems with this as a cause.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 07:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the police have got this Disruption policy successfully on the move, and they can also underhandedly permit rioting so they can video the drug barons organising and the foot-soldiers fighting, they would not seem to lack powers. Apart from shooting on sight, what "greater powers" do they want?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:06:20 AM EST
I don't buy the 'permitting rioting' idea, though they might be able to sell that to the politicians as an excuse for having their eye off the ball.

I don't buy the idea that powers are lacking either.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:09:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the only reason I can see for "allowing" the rioting is to force the hand of a government that wants to cut police numbers.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:21:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
there were astonished eye witness reports on sky news about police sitting in their cars watching arson and looting without any reactions, and very slow reaction times to various incidents.

what helen says below...

if this is just drug gangs, that'd explain the blackberries.

i think britain is bracing for much more of the same, sweeping the druggies will justify piling on the spending on riot control.

what they are scared of is huge numbers, unions, students, and the generally disaffected, (who are enviously looking at the arab spring).

they know what's coming and they are planning on emulating assad rather than giving up easy. britain is the nexus for planetary big money, especially shady sourced, and the protection plans for the well-heeled will have been very thoroughly prepared.

no matter how many thousands of police they employ, they will always be outnumbered by the mass of public sheer body weight, ergo we will probably be seeing the water cannons and rubber bullets next.

the more they try to smother change with brute force and low-minded, petty guile, the worse they will appear on the world stage, and the more embarrassed brits will be by the humiliation of seeing their streets set on fire and their citizens herded around like cattle under the gun.

at that point the lipstick will come off the pig bigtime. brits are for the most part peaceable, fair-minded people, who don't want their country descending into a police state with curfews and people 'disappearing'.

that's when the stark contrasts between spun fiction and reality will be too hard to paper over any more, and that's when the cognitive dissonance can start to heal, as the proverbial 'other shoe' drops, and people are willy nilly made aware by events just who's on their (and humanity's) side and who's been exploiting and instrumentalising them...

it's tragic it has to be this way, it is so unnecessary, but people are shocked and in survival mode, so don't think deeply about things... fight / flight.

the system is stagnant with recalcitrance and people will always choose a path of suffering worse short-term to possibly escape a slow, undignified ground-down and hopeless stoicism, which is basically what the system is asking of its citizens.

the world as one big gaza strip... they pound you down, you get up and try to get your life going right, then...more pounding. lab mice in some demented pain threshhold experiment, pretty much sums up the human condition...

something had to give.

on a positive note, it's great to see the solidarity of cleanup crews bonding around their brooms as they sweep up the rubble and glass in clapham.

 

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:04:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if this is just drug gangs, that'd explain the blackberries.

I see lots (well, okay...) of teenagers with blackberries. If they're heavily into texting or social media the blackberry's keyboard is an advantage.

It's the use of the Blackberry instant messaging network rather than twitter that's unusual.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:10:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Blackberries are pretty secure, and I have heard they have become the dealers' comms tool of choice.

It's just biznis innit?

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:17:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the report to various middle eastern government that it was technically impossible to intercept the messages of protestors will have no doubt helped with that. and no doubt will be something that comes back to haunt  blackberry. as theyll now have assorted autocrats banging on the doors saying they lied

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 12:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I learned recently (to my surprise) that Blackberries are considered cool among young teenagers here in France. I'd have expected them to be seen as old-man stuff, but the keyboard/instant messaging/email make them an option the kids take seriously.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 12:05:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was puzzled in the same way, because kids here seem to have had a brief affair with BBs as a sort of contrarian choice vs the iPhone, and because a lot of people were initially very skeptical of the virtual keyboard.  Now Android has beaten RIM senseless in the not-iPhone category, and people have gotten used to the virtual keyboards, so RIM is getting wiped out.

I think BBs are more budget phones over there though.  RIM's starting to move in that direction stateside, but right now BBs don't make a lot of sense unless you just really love the keyboards they make (which, admittedly, are quite nice, but I prefer the touchscreen).

The BB Messenger service probably factors in hugely, too.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 07:26:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, what I've been told is that BBs are acceptable - when I thought they'd be like rolled eyes.

Most kids I know have touch screens.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 07:39:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I see in that set of 9 points is a rather delusional rationalisation. I am reminded of the noises the Coalition made before they went into Iraq.

Point 9 might as well read "We will be greeted on a carpet of rose petals".

It tells us far more about the "certainties" they impose on the world than it does about what is really happening.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:28:09 AM EST
As far as point 3 goes:
The man shot over the weekend, who apparently pulled a gun before he was shot by the police, was himself a leading light in the drugs trade in that part of London. The riots that followed locally were simple retaliation.
it appears the most thorough journalistic job here is being carried out by the Guardian:

Mark Duggan: profile of Tottenham police shooting victim

Conflicting portraits of man whose death sparked Tottenham riot and London-wide looting
Mark Duggan handgun tests show conversion into lethal weapon
It is understood that ballistics experts have established that the firearm being carried in the minicab was a handgun which at one point had not been capable of firing - a replica, a starting pistol or a collector's weapon. But the firearm had been converted - as many illegal firearms purchased on the street are - into a lethal weapon capable of carrying live ammunition.


...


The firearms officer is understood to have told investigators that he opened fire because he believed he was in danger from a lethal weapon. Two shots were fired, it is understood; one hit Duggan and one missed, lodging in another officer's radio.


Forensic tests will establish finally whether Duggan fired his weapon at all during the attempted arrest last Thursday evening.


Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:47:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1577008/-No-evidence--London-man-fired-on-police#

'No evidence' London man fired on police

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This could all be true... and it could still backfire on us all if it spreads further and sweeps up more general discontent...

And I think articles like the Telegraph one ceebs and Helen have pointed to remind us that there are the makings of a lost generation out there and they could get heavily involved with these riots because they have not much to lose...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:35:35 AM EST
Going by reports, the dead man in Tottenham was involved with gang violence (and that he was shot by a special police unit dealing with "gun violence ib black neighbourhoods"); but the problem of gun and knife violence among London youth is long-standing, as is gang involvement. There may be the makings of a lost generation as a result of the current crisis, but it's probably more accurate to say there have been lost generations for at least a decade and what this crisis is doing is "democratizing" that by making more and more people fall through the cracks into a world where it is har to escape involvement with gun violence and organized crime.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
London riots are not the work of organised gangs | Gavin Knight | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Following the London riots, the media have been quick to say the looting was the work of an organised gang of thugs, even a network of gangs working together. The truth is more complex. Mark Duggan was a member of the Star gang. Made up of less than 10 members, it had a notorious reputation for being armed, dealing Class A drugs and intent on making money. It was affiliated to larger, older gangs in the area known as the Tottenham Man Dem or the Farm Boys, with around 30 members each from different generations.

Given the cut-off nature of Broadwater Farm Estate, the gang members there are close-knit. They do not attack members of their own community. They all grew up together and remain in touch with previous generations. They also protect the estate like a fortress against rivals like Edmonton in the north, the Wood Green "Mob" to the west.

In Tottenham, as in other parts of inner cities in the UK, one of the key trends is the lowering of the age group involved in gang activity. Younger and younger kids are becoming involved. It is likely that young kids from outside the area, alerted by BlackBerry instant messages, arrived to loot the shops. One eyewitness from the community told me how he was driving in the area with his family and could see young kids he recognised but they were "so angry and emotional" he decided not to engage with them. "They saw the burning car and it gave them an adrenaline rush. They were spurred on by a chance to put one over on the police, maybe for the only time in their lives."

Some kids who looted Foot Locker later boasted about the boxes of trainers they had in their house. They do not fit the profile of organised senior gang members. A source close to the gang community, with a background in armed robbery, told me: "If senior gang members were involved, they would not be interested in just trainers and TVs. They'd take out the bank, the safes and tills from H&M and Foot Locker. They would break into the bookies."

A network of gangs at work is also unlikely, as rivals gang members entering Tottenham territory risk reprisals. "If they saw someone who had done something to their family, they would not hold back just because a riot was going on," my source told me. "The kids who turned up have nothing in common with each other except that they were throwing stones at the police. Young people looking for excitement."

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:53:00 AM EST


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:12:31 AM EST
UK riots: Is this the moment Boris loses his shine? | Westminster blog | Jim Pickard and Kiran Stacey share their views on the UK's political scene for the Financial Times - FT.com

Jim has written on this blog before about the general sense that Boris Johnson will win next year's London mayoral elections. He is regarded as charismatic, charming and has managed to avoid any serious misstep while serving as mayor. More importantly, Ken Livingstone is seen by many as yesterday's man, having previously done the job for eight years.

But the London riots have the potential to change all that. While Boris was away on holiday last night, Ken was allowed to dominate the airwaves, securing a prominent slot on Newsnight in particular, where he blamed the government's cuts for the violence.

Boris has now returned, and addressed people on the streets of Clapham. But he struggled. Almost drowned out by heckling, he defended his own response and that of the police to Monday night's riots.

Amid calls of "Why are you here now? Why weren't you here earlier?" and "You talk about robust policing. What does that actually mean?" Boris didn't really have a clear message, saying at one point:



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 12:03:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See www.riotcleanup.co.uk

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:15:38 AM EST
according to someone there, the photo of people waving brooms that will be all over the papers tomorrow is the result of the volunteers not being allowed to do any cleaning, so starting a broom based Mexican wave

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's right - they weren't allowed to clean up as Scene of Crime Officers hadn't finished gathering forensic evidence - hence the photo-opp
by LondonAnalytics (Andrew Smith) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding point 7:
It is (highly unofficially) in the police's interests to let the riot spread somewhat, to see how many rioters the drug barons can bring onto the streets, to see how many of them the police can photograph.
According to The Guardian's live blog
According to David Turner QC, who specialises in professional liability, the situation does not need to be officially described as a riot for the Public Order Act 1986 to kick in. Section 10 provides that the terms "riot" and "riotously" in the Riot Act 1886 is when "12 or more persons who are present together use or threaten unlawful violence for a common purpose and the conduct of them (taken together) is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present to fear for his personal safety, each of the persons using unlawful violence for the common purpose is guilty of riot."

Under the 1886 Act, the Metropolitan Police Authority will be liable to pay compensation to those whose property has been damaged, destroyed or stolen in the rioting within London borders, but claims have to be made within 14 days after the day when the damage, destruction or theft occurred.



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:35:27 AM EST
My understanding has always been the opposite, and that was why the police specifically charged people with civil disturbance rather than riot, civil disturbance being what its called when it's more than 3 people.

Even the poll tax riots in Trafalgar Square were treated as multiple cases of civil disturbance happening in the same place, rather than riot

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:45:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @virtualstoa: Sign of the times: sales o ...
Sign of the times: sales of aluminium baseball bats up 5,000% in last 24h over at amazon.co.uk/gp/movers-and-... via tehgraun


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:57:55 AM EST
A baseball bat is considered an offensive weapon in the UK and carrying one is an automatic arrest (unless in simultaneous possession of other baseball paraphernalia).

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 12:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Know people who have been advised in pubs to use a Newcastle Brown bottle, rather than a baseball bat, as it's something you could have legitimately just have grabbed

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it is not an offence to carry a hammer. Since there is no waking up the elite in their homes and offices, the only place they are vulnerable to be woken up is in the streets - in their easy-to-recognize big shiny cars. Even limos have to stop at traffic lights or in slow traffic.

I've heard tell it is easy to give a sharp blow to the beautiful bodywork with a hammer, before melting away into the pavement crowds. If this were to escalate into, say, a thousand dints an hour, it would certainly affect the enemy 'supply lines'.

Of course, I in no way advocate such action, I'm only thinking in script terms.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm only thinking in script terms.

In the immortal lyrics of Queen, let me out of this cheap B movie!



Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:18:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What about a cricket bat?

Police, in England, arresting people for merely carrying a cricket bat, in England, would be ... amusing.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can also apply for bails.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:25:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though I might need to explain that joke to you behind the sightscreen...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm stumped for a follow on to that one.

<ducks>

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ducks me ducks and out for a duck

<now that's put a googly down to the New Mexico end>

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 03:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... I take it you're just trying to see out the bowling and aren't aiming for the fences.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 07:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm offering mere umpirical evidence.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 01:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you're on asticky wicket with that one

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 05:44:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If that's the best spin you can put on it, may I assume you were selected for your batting and fielding?

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 01:54:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
keep on keeping on

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 04:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And why do you call spin 'english'? Gotcha!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 05:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't, I'm not a pool player. I call spin "a curve ball", if its baseball. Or "spin", if its cricket.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:07:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you'd need to play Billiards not pool :)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 07:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Be that as it may, its pool that I have the option to play around here, so its pool that I am not playing. I'd have to be in a different locale to be not playing billiards. Similarly, while in Newcastle I didn't lawn ball, here in Northeast Ohio I don't do ten pin bowling.

And do they call spin "english" in billards? Or do they call it "french" or some such.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 09:22:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cue sports techniques - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The term english (called "side" in the UK, and sometimes simply called "left" or "right", and sometimes "check side" for side that narrows the cue ball angle after contacting a rail, and "running side" for side that widens the cue ball angle after contacting a rail) normally refers to sidespin put on a cue ball by hitting it to the left or right of center. Generally, english is used to change the angle of reflection of the cue ball after it contacts a rail. English also affects the direction an object ball takes on impact (the "throw" effect), as well as the path of travel of the cue ball after impact with a cue ("deflection" or "squirt").


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 02:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 03:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Headrush - Ed Webb's Dickinson Blog: On the riots
I lived at the top of Crystal Palace park for a year and a half when I moved back to London from Cairo at the end of the 1990s. Couldn't afford to live closer in, so commuted from there to work in the centre. Commuting was one of the reasons I quit my (safe, government) job 18 months later and moved to the US. Croydon was soul-destroying then, but not as grungy and run-down as you describe it here.

On my last few visits to Austerity Britain(TM) I have been struck by both increasingly visible poverty and increasing electronic surveillance, particularly in urban areas. Public spaces are tense, fearful, surveilled. You can't pull out a camera at a station. But their cameras are watching you from several angles. It's not healthy at all. Orwellian, alienated.

Some on Twitter etc have been evoking the start of the Thatcher era. It strikes me that what Thatcher started, her successors have been working to complete. She proclaimed that `there is no such thing as society' and then did all she could to make that true. Community, solidarity, egalitarianism - all dying or dead, for the most part. I suspect if you could ask the rioters what they're doing, they would give some variation on a nihilist theme. Why destroy? Because they can. We have trained our young people to be acquisitive, atomized, unempathetic.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 12:06:49 PM EST
Twitter / @channel4news: There is no evidence that ...
There is no evidence that Mark Duggan opened fire at police before he was shot dead, ballistic test results say #londonriots


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 12:36:13 PM EST
Twitter / @Gaijinsan21: MT @Lord_Credo: BNP: Brita ...
MT @Lord_Credo: BNP: Britain rocked by angry black gangs http://bit.ly/qCJIPp Word has it GMP is following Griffin's tweets very closely.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 12:38:06 PM EST
angry black gangs
-----------
I have seen more white faces amongst rioters then black ...it's a lie...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:23:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
course it's a lie, it's the BNP

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which of course has led to reporting like this internationally.

BBC News - London riots

In a rare moment of harmony, press in both Israel and Iran cite immigration as one of the reasons for unrest in the UK. Editorials in Iran's Khorasan newspaper and Israel's Yisrael Hayom both speculate that tensions in multicultural communities may be the cause. "All those who felt disadvantaged and full of hatred are now running wild," the Israeli paper says.

miaaing out that the looters have appeared multicultural.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 05:48:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reminds me of the riots in the French suburbs in 2005, where the narrative insisted it was all about "France's Muslim youth". It wasn't easy even on ET to get across that the kids weren't all of the same religious culture, or ethnic origin for that matter. What they had in common was being young and in the underclass. And hating the police.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 10:52:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The office building I work in was closed early because of riots geographically not far away  (although there are a number of reasons to believe it wouldn't spread from there in that direction.)

Walking home, I observe across parts of Islington, Clerkenwell and the City that everything is closing early, pubs are open but clearly have the feel of emptiness.

The whole route is one that I would estimate will not see any rioting (going by the riots so far and my guess from covering things as a photographer in the past) but still a sense of tension and people battening down...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 12:45:32 PM EST
I'm assuming it's CYA for the office?

It's probably irrational for those businesses to all lock up, but perhaps better safe than sorry.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 07:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @example: Waterstone's employee just ...
Waterstone's employee just said on the news: "we'll stay open, if they steal some books they might learn something"


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:11:49 PM EST
UK Riots Live Blog | Al Jazeera Blogs
Reuters reports: Iran urged Britain on Tuesday to avoid using force to suppress riots that have rocked London.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast said the British government should "exercise restraint", avoid using violence and instead "talk to protesters and listen to their requests", the official IRNA news agency reported.

A member of Iran's parliament, Hossein Ebrahimi, told the semi-official Fars news agency that Britain should allow a delegation of human rights monitors to examine the situation.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:17:40 PM EST
The Irony.  It flows full mightily.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Its just a good job Ghaddafi has no qirforce

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is good...hahaha

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:25:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @FateemaS: Hey BNP, guess what? the M ...
Hey BNP, guess what? the MUSLIMS are protecting YOUR country. Yeah that's right. JUST like the war times... twitpic.com/63534y


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:23:19 PM EST
BBC News - Live: UK riots

BBC News understands that the CO19 officers involved in the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan in Tottenham last Thursday discharged their firearms because they believed there was a threat to human life. Their guidelines allow them to shoot in such circumstances. Another key witness, the driver of the minicab in which Mark Duggan was travelling, has yet to give his description of what happened. He is understood to be in a severe state of shock.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:28:12 PM EST
London riots: before and after photographs | UK news | guardian.co.uk
Images of damaged buildings in Croydon and Tottenham show the full force of the riots on local communities. Move the slider to see the effect on each property


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:32:48 PM EST
Londoners: Rioting through the ages - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

Back in the summer of 2010, as Chancellor George Osborne announced a swingeing package of public sector cuts, many journalists wondered why Britain, unlike other European countries, appeared phlegmatic about such severe austerity measures. Was this is simply an example of the British "stiff-upper lip", that stoical Britons don"t "do" civil disobedience?

These are questions that the past year has rendered ridiculous. London has seen serious riots break out at student demonstrations in November and December 2010, while peaceful mass demonstration organised by the Trades Union Congress in March of this year descended into violence as groups of demonstrators occupying Trafalgar Square clashed with police.

The looting and arson that has scarred London and now other English cities represents the most frightening apparent manifestation of this public discontent. Yet, unlike the student riots or mass demonstrations, there are seemingly few precedents in British history for the kinds of violent disturbances the country has witnessed in the past few days. Indeed, it is the lack of a clear context (social, historical or otherwise) that makes them so terrifying.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:43:14 PM EST
BBC News - Live: UK riots
The Central Housing Office in Salford, Greater Manchester, is on fire. Fire crews are said to be at the scene.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:45:19 PM EST
Bristol Culture

The photograph below is of Bristol men rioting in Old Market Street on February 23, 1932, as some 3,000 unemployed engaged in running battles with the police as they tried to march down to the city centre, led by the National Unemployed Workers Movement. Police baton-charged protesters outside Trinity police station and along Old Market.

Thanks very much to Kathryn Mottram for the photo, taken by a local press photographer, which family lore believes shows her grandfather, who was  an inspector in the Bristol Police Force at the time. The Mottram family  have a sneaking suspicion that he may be the police officer on the right of the photo with the flat peaked hat, as worn by inspectors, as opposed to all the other baton-wielding pointed hat constables.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 01:46:42 PM EST
Twitter / @louisebolotin: BBC Radio Mcr reporting it ...
BBC Radio Mcr reporting it's heard its OB car has been set on fire


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 02:06:24 PM EST
Twitter / @msgracefh: OK, STOP SETTING BITS OF S ...
OK, STOP SETTING BITS OF SALFORD ON FIRE. There is a tower block of flats above the precinct and you're scaring people.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 02:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @mtattersallitv: Arndale broken into http: ...
Arndale broken into yfrog.com/hsdm5oxzj


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 02:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the riots have not spread that fast.

(Tour de France winner Cadel Evans stated riding a bike in Armidale.)

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 07:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This implies that these people are rioting only because they're trying to protect the drug trade and not, like the students earlier this year, because of other, more legitimate complaints. In a community without much power or organization, you're going to have to have involvement of groups that have either or both for their voices to be heard (however distasteful the process seems to be). Otherwise you'll just have individuals feebly standing up to the well organized power of the police.

As for the police, if they're really looking to gain control over this trade then surely they're not just after more power. This trade won't go away by just throwing a bunch of cops at it. If they do succeed in driving out the heads of the operation they'll set up a power vacuum into which either new recruits will come from inside the industry (re: power struggle) or the police themselves will take over complete with the financial gains that come with protecting this market.

by Jace (jace6315 at yahoo etc.) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 02:30:16 PM EST
@BrianPaddick
Police tactics not suited to 12+ seats of disorder - time to re-think. Police also need to be part of community again http://t.co/BHximfV
links to his comment in The Independent.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 02:32:29 PM EST
Paddick:
Police also need to be part of community again

Oh, same problem as in France? (Thanks Sarko).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 03:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @clarered: Ian back safe from west br ...
Ian back safe from west brom. Tells of hearing old woman waving stick at balaclavad rioter shouting 'I know your mother' #birminghamriots


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 03:02:50 PM EST
Gerroff up your own end or I'll tell yer mam!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 03:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @sandralaville: Senior police source says ...
Senior police source says officers were told to stand back, wait and monitor - tactic now reversed after public anger at looting


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 05:27:08 PM EST
BBC: Nottingham police station attacked by gang
The fire has now been extinguished and at least eight people have been arrested, the force said.

There are so far no reports of any injuries. Earlier 10 people were arrested after youths climbed on to the roof of Nottingham High School.

In another incident, two males aged 17 and 18 were also arrested earlier in the evening after rocks were thrown at Bulwell Police Station.



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 05:57:58 PM EST
Twitter / @Hughes_Mark: By my reckoning in London, ...
Mark Hughes By my reckoning in London, West Mids, Manchester, Liverpool etc... About 1,000 people have been arrested. In four days. #riots #ukriots


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 07:33:30 PM EST
Twitter / @SkyNewsBreak: Gloucestershire Police con ...
Gloucestershire Police confirm they are dealing with a "gathering" in the Brunswick area of Gloucester


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 09:32:24 PM EST
Twitter / @cookdandbombd: Shit, @sangattv breaking t ...
Shit, @sangattv breaking the news of two deaths in Birmingham, now. Things look very tense, as you'd expect. They're switching off.

sangaatv are the Birmingham based Sikh? (i think) tv satation, theyve had a mobile crew covering the police and riots all night, and havehad the most in-depth coverage of what has been occurring. didn't see it myself, as id just decided to crash, but found this on my phone while getting to bed.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2011 at 10:07:58 PM EST
I see comments like this on BBC:

The perpetrators offer the excuse that they are underprivileged. Why not let us take them to a real poverty stricken area like Somalia and let them work with the aid agencies to see what real hardship and lack of opportunity means? Hopefully, they will recognise the opportunities that are available to them in UK. It is up to them to work for it.

So silly...There was someone commenting here on TV like this: Earlier those kids (most left school and have no qualifications) had chance to work in supermarkets etc. for low wages but still work. Now university educated people are applying for supermarket jobs so those kids have no chance".
People that have nothing to lose will become violent. We knew there will be war in Bosnia (all tho citizens really did not want it and avoided it even when war in Croatia was well on) when they couldn't buy bag of detergent for month's salary...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 01:38:08 AM EST
One more good coment on BBC

Politicians fiddle expenses and rob the public.
Newspapers froth with fraud while their owners buy politicians and police.
Police freely accept bribes selling information of murdered children.
Banks cheat and rob the country because they are "too big" to fail.

This is the example of the high and mighty, lets count the cost of these riots and do a comparison, i bet it's not in the billions!

Really how they expect to have "responsible" young generation? They also watch TV...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:02:35 AM EST
The Guardian: The UK riots: the psychology of looting
The shocking acts of looting may not be political, but they nevertheless say something about the beaten-down lives of the rioters

...

I think it's just about possible that you could see your actions refashioned into a noble cause if you were stealing the staples: bread, milk. But it can't be done while you're nicking trainers, let alone laptops. In Clapham Junction, the only shop left untouched was Waterstone's, and the looters of Boots had, unaccountably, stolen a load of Imodium. So this kept Twitter alive all night with tweets about how uneducated these people must be and the condition of their digestive systems. While that palled after a bit, it remains the case that these are shopping riots, characterised by their consumer choices: that's the bit we've never seen before. A violent act by the authorities, triggering a howl of protest - that bit is as old as time. But crowds moving from shopping centre to shopping centre? Actively trying to avoid a confrontation with police, trying to get in and out of JD Sports before the "feds" arrive? That bit is new.

Hmm: @izakaminska
Media baffled by random looting of immodium - have we all forgotten the most shocking scene in Trainspotting already?
Wikipedia: Trainspotting
One day, Renton decides to quit heroin. Realizing he needs one last high, he buys opium rectal suppositories from Mikey Forrester (Irvine Welsh), which immediately give him diarrhea. After using "the worst toilet in Scotland", he quickly discovers that he has lost the opium suppositories and fishes them out of the polluted toilet bowl. After this "final hit", he locks himself into a cheap hotel room to endure withdrawal.



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:10:08 AM EST
Why is it supposedly a-political to liberate class markers like upscale clothes and consumer electronics? Isn't that saying "we work more than the banksters, yet they have these things and we are denied them?"

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:13:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the article is more nuanced than its lede on whether this is "political":
Leaving Baudrillard aside, just because there is no political agenda on the part of the rioters doesn't mean the answer isn't rooted in politics. ...

...

... a more pragmatic reading: this is what happens when people don't have anything, when they have their noses constantly rubbed in stuff they can't afford, and they have no reason ever to believe that they will be able to afford it. Hiller takes up this idea: "Consumer society relies on your ability to participate in it. So what we recognise as a consumer now was born out of shorter hours, higher wages and the availability of credit. If you're dealing with a lot of people who don't have the last two, that contract doesn't work. They seem to be targeting the stores selling goods they would normally consume. So perhaps they're rebelling against the system that denies its bounty to them because they can't afford it.

The type of goods being looted seems peculiarly relevant: if they were going for bare necessities, I think one might incline towards sympathy. I could be wrong, but I don't get the impression that we're looking at people who are hungry. If they were going for more outlandish luxury, hitting Tiffany's and Gucci, they might seem more political, and thereby more respectable. Their achilles heel was in going for things they demonstrably want.

Forensic psychologist Kay Nooney deals impatiently with the idea of cuts, specifically tuition fees, as an engine of lawlessness. "These people aren't interested in tuition fees. In constituency, it's most similar to a prison riot: what will happen is that, usually in the segregation unit, nobody will ever know exactly, but a rumour will emanate that someone has been hurt in some way. There will be some form of moral outrage that takes its expression in self-interested revenge. There is no higher purpose, you just have a high volume of people with a history of impulsive behaviour, having a giant adventure."

Of course, the difference is that, in a prison, liberty has already been lost." ...

When you get to the point of comparing this to a prison riot, there are echoes of the Dosadi Experiment, which was also mentioned on ET in connection with the Gaza blockade.

In other words, life in London's most depressed communities is like life in an open-air prison, and Britain's pervasive and operative class distinctions acts as a prison to those in the lowest class.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 
1055:   BBC Monitoring

Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said.



Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:21:22 AM EST
 
1102:

Nine out of 10 British adults say police should be able to be use water cannon on rioters and one third support use of live ammunition, according to a YouGov poll of 2,534 British adults for the Sun.



Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:22:20 AM EST
However the police are saying no

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 07:34:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe  some reasonable and experienced people in police to said no but PM just said "everything" on hands (and legal backing for EVERUTHING necessary)...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 08:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What damages does a water canon do?

A free fox in a free henhouse!
by Xavier in Paris on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 09:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On March 9th (winter time in Serbia) they used water canons. See here in the middle of video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK47D-swfWA

I bet many people have been sick with cold after that and maybe some ended in emergency being hurt but not that this helped police in any way...It may crowd even more angry and they attacked vehicles as you can see.
They tried to move people from the square but people were back immediately.
It is summer in England...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 09:54:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And those were peaceful ordinary citizens not gangs...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 09:56:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well obviously most of them were peaceful citizens but also there were groups of football funs (hooligans) that wouldn't miss the opportunity to fight ha-ha

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 10:01:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on the pressure setting, but somewhere between getting beaten with a club and getting shot with a plastic bullet. You will want to get medical attention, and there are confirmed cases of permanent eye damage from unfortunate hits, but it shouldn't kill you if you have access to first-world medical care.

That water cannons are mentioned in the same sentence as live ammunition is something I find rather disturbing.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:42:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if USA police is preparing for something like this?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 06:46:33 AM EST
I was not in Serbia in October 2000 but I was very excited because it finally looked like "He (Milosevic) is finished". Video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNtvxc2-E_Y&feature=related

It really was the end for him sun but I will never understand why they put that beautiful Parliament building on fire and I felt said because of it. As much as I hated government it wasn't their building. It should be peoples building...

But crowd mentality is so strange...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 09:03:05 AM EST
Rioting for 'justice' in London - Features - Al Jazeera English

Young people take control of the streets in the riotous aftermath of Thursday's police killing, which created a tipping point in communities, where a lack of jobs and social services has given angry youth nowhere to vent frustrations [EPA]


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 09:42:35 AM EST
I was wondering where are the comparisons to the car-burning riots in France (the "Muslim" riots), but for some, the race angle is wished for:

London riots: Neighbours mount anti-gang patrols amid fears of far-right agitation - Telegraph

Stephen Lennon, the leader of the far-right EDL, said he spent yesterday in Enfield and claim to have 100 supporters on the streets of the town.

Lennon said the group had encouraged all its members to take part in street clean-ups. He said members would launch street patrols in Bristol, Manchester, Luton and Leicestershire over the coming days in an attempt to talk young men out of rioting.

"If they tried to smash up Luton town centre I'd know every one of them. I can go into any working class community and talk to them."

Footage emerged last night of a gang of white men chasing an alleged looter through the streets of Enfield. One bystander shouts: "We're chasing blacks."



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 09:48:22 AM EST
Great! If they allow other groups to take "justice" in their hands they will have full on war on the streets. They should not encourage this under any circumstances.
The other thing is big lie that these kids are all black. Take a good look and you'll see many white faces amongst them. Some even probably members of those far right groups...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 10:08:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/

The man just said it's not racial issue because there were all kinds of kids there...
And yes he said rightly that society owns them opportunity to work, to educate them opposing Cameron saying that those kids feel that we own them something.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 10:42:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:02:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No shame, no limits: Has the behaviour of the mob destroyed the idea of British civility for ever? - Crime, UK - The Independent

I think people were so frightened because something had been loosed and was on display, which was new to many people - and that was the sight of very large numbers of people, mainly young men, who were no longer constrained by our culture. The role of culture in making British society what it is, and in giving it its remarkable strengths, is not often remarked upon, but it is enormous. We are, or we have been, a culture-bound society: we have been governed largely by informal constraints on our behaviour.

This is in sharp contrast to a society like that of the United States, for example, which is largely a rule-bound society...

...We have plenty of rules and plenty of laws like every other nation, but what has held British society together, given its relative stability and unique values, has been culture. It is clear that there is a growing section of young men and women who have been so socialised that this culture means nothing to them and this will have to be recognised. This is probably not something that policy can deal with; it cannot be ameliorated, it can only be confronted.

It does not mean that we cannot have civil governance, but it will increasingly have to be based on rules which are enforced, rather than on universally accepted norms of behaviour...

Why do I have to read such a conservative look at the past through rose-tinted eyes, with a conservative conclusion that Britain needs more police state, and an unspoken anti-immigrant line throughout, in The Independent? Regarding the unspoken anti-immigrant line, he mentions the 1976 Notting Hill Carnival Riot as the supposedly first sign of the constraints of British culture ignored. Who rioted then? Here is the contemporary BBC:

BBC ON THIS DAY | 30 | 1976: Notting Hill Carnival ends in riot

The trouble is believed to have started after police tried to arrest a pickpocket near Portobello Road on the main carnival route.

Several black youths went to the pickpocket's aid and within minutes the disturbance escalated.

...At one stage a group of black youths were seen moving up Westbourne Park road smashing windows.

Gangs of white youths were also said to have been involved in the violence.

...and the BBC in 2006:

BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Remembering the Notting Hill riot

Tempers were boiling among young black men over police use of the "sus" law, under which anybody could be stopped, searched and held, even if only suspected of planning a crime.

Anticipating some trouble, 3,000 police officers turned up - ten times the amount of previous, relatively peaceful, events.

This raised the tension, but what sparked the riot is still open to question.

White fascist gangs were said to be at large. Police said it began after attempts to arrest a pickpocket.

...Professor Chris Mullard, chairman of organisers London Notting Hill Carnival Ltd... sees the riot as important in the history of race relations, giving rise as it did to the implementation of the Race Relations Act 1976 which prohibited racial discrimination.

Nice. Now, what was the inspiration for the Notting Hill Carnival in the first place? It was the previous most serious riot in London:

1958 Notting Hill race riots - Wikipedia

The Notting Hill race riots were a series of racially-motivated riots that took place in London, England over several nights in late August and early September 1958.

Tell me those 'British cultural conventions' were respected by the 1958 rioters.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 10:12:24 AM EST
British exceptionalism at its worst.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 10:35:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but this one is straight out of the Norwegian mass murderer's manifesto:

An example that has fallen by the wayside is giving up your seat to a woman on public transport. When I was a boy, no woman on a bus or a train would be standing if a man had a seat to offer her; now the man who gets up is the exception.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 03:24:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why he killed the SocDem girls in preference?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 04:01:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to a taz article, the manifesto is full of mysogyny (some of it quoted from blogger Fjordman who also rails against "totalitarian feminists"), and it is on the level of that of Islamists. On one hand, he wants to ban the pill, abortion, divorce, and grades above BA for women(!), and wants to establish 'sex zones' to correct falling birthrates. On the other hand, there is ample indication of the origin of his views, issues with his family: his promiscuous stepfather, his mother whom the stepfather infected with genital herpes, and his half-sister who also contacted a sexually transmitted disease (but he is ashamed of the mother and sister and blames the "feminist-sexual revolution", not the stepfather). I meant his insistence that men should return to courteous behaviour like opening the door for women, though.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 04:38:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An Open Letter to David Cameron's Parents « Nathaniel Tapley

Dear Mr & Mrs Cameron,

Why did you never take the time to teach your child basic morality?

As a young man, he was in a gang that regularly smashed up private property. We know that you were absent parents who left your child to be brought up by a school rather than taking responsibility for his behaviour yourselves. The fact that he became a delinquent with no sense of respect for the property of others can only reflect that fact that you are terrible, lazy human beings who failed even in teaching your children the difference between right and wrong. I can only assume that his contempt for the small business owners of Oxford is indicative of his wider values.

Even worse, your neglect led him to fall in with a bad crowd.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 10:14:51 AM EST
Church of Scientology using riot aftermath to recruit members | Political Scrapbook

The Church of Scientology is using the aftermath of the UK riots to recruit vulnerable people for their controversial sect, Political Scrapbook can reveal.

A "Scientology Volunteer Force" appeared at the cleanup operation in Birmingham City Centre this morning, purporting to be there to help sweep up. In reality, they stayed for around ten minutes - just long enough to convince members of the public to come back to their centre and "learn more" about the organisation.

According to cleanup helper @BrumProtester, the five volunteers, who wore the sect's trademark yellow jackets, each left with a member of the public in the direction of their nearby recruitment office.

The controversial sect routinely send "Volunteer Ministers" to recruit members in the immediate aftermath of disasters. They arrive bearing supplies, food and water, then begin offering medically dubious "therapies" known as "assists" to people suffering from extreme shock.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:06:12 AM EST
Now there's a group the rioters could target where it would take a heart of stone not to laugh out loud

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:13:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing wrong with Scientology that putting their leaders behind bars for running a pyramid scam would not solve.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:49:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thinking a bit further along those lines, the same is true for most of the City and their friends in Parliament.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:52:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A fitwatcher's view of the riots « Fitwatch

've felt a lot of emotions over the past few days ranging from joy to grief to anger. It's been amazing to see people fighting back against the police and it's been equally horrific to see damage to people's homes and small shops, let alone the deaths in Birmingham yesterday.

However, today I am just angry. I feel utterly sickened at the attitude of large numbers of people who are suddenly supporting the police, who support the army being brought in, who want to see water canon and plastic bullets used on the streets.

I am livid with rage at people who have never experienced police harassment not even attempting to understand the brutalisation this causes. I know the effect it has had on me, and I've only experienced it through the choice of being politically active which is nothing compared to it happening on a daily basis because of your skin colour or where you live.

Not only did the cops kill Mark Duggan, they tried to spin a story about him shooting first, the same way they manufactured lies about Charles de Menzes and Ian Tomlinson amongst others. They showed utter contempt for his family by not communicating with them, and the demands of peaceful protesters to speak to a senior officer were ignored.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:12:00 AM EST
"What the looting shows is that prosperity doesn't trickle down, but greed does"


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:36:21 AM EST
Is our ruling class clueless on the riots? | Gurublog

I am not cynical about politicians. I think they are largely a hard working bunch of earnest people who genuinely want to make the country a better place. I do not begrudge them holidays. Or expenses. Some get carried away by the hint of power, and its trappings. Many treat the media with contempt. But I understand this. I am also well used to politicians being powerless over big issues. This is not because they don't understand the problem - but because they are up against more powerful forces, world opinion, market behaviour, lack of resources and much more. However listening to politicians trying to explain the riots has begged a question that doesn't usually spring to mind : do they have the faintest idea what is going on?  All week I have acknowledged that the rarity of British rioting naturally makes it hard to understand. And I claim no unique insight of my own. But many politicians are trying to have it both ways : ask them why it is happening and they say this is "sheer criminality".  Ask them again and they say "there will be plenty of time to consider the wider issues but right now we need to stop the criminal behaviour". What they seem to mean is "I have no idea why it is happening but I really need it to stop".

David Cameron has now attempted his analysis within twenty four hours of returning from Tuscany - parts of Britain are "sick". By "sick" we assume this is not an attempt at getting down with da kidz, but a genuine diagnosis. The Prime Minister blamed a "complete lack of responsibility, a lack of proper parenting, a lack of proper upbringing, a lack of proper ethics, a lack of proper morals." He went on to say it is about "discipline in schools" and "making sure we have a welfare system that doesn't reward idleness".



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:48:58 AM EST
But the welfare state does reward idleness, or at least punishes work !!

You start losing unemployment, housing and child benefit immediately 1:1 if you get a part time job. So why work at all until you can get something that replaces all the benefits ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:43:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Video: Manchester riots: Gangster Dominic Noonan caught on film during Manchester looting - Telegraph

The last time Dominic Noonan was filmed it was as the subject of Donal McIntyre's 2007 documentary 'A Very British Gangster'. This time he is caught engaging looters in conversation in Manchester city centre yesterday.

Noonan has more than 40 convictions for a wide range of offences including armed robbery, police assault, attacks on prison officers, deception, firearms, prison escape and fraud, and has spent 22 years in prison.

In the footage it is unclear what role, if any, Mr Noonan is playing in the looting but the young men he approaches smile and appear at ease in his company.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:27:15 PM EST
Twitter / @Simon_Nixon: London youth worker on Sky ...
London youth worker on Sky just before me says all gangs told be leaders not to riot yesteray. Wonder if that's why London was so quiet?


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To try to lure the police into thinking all is quiet, only to strike when the alert level is reduced?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or to avoid ticking off the cops enough that they put the whole area into lockdown.

Or made up out of whole cloth by someone who wants to fit a "common criminals looting stores" narrative to the lull in the protests.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @alextomo: Bottles thrown at riot cop ...
Bottles thrown at riot cops by group of middle aged white guys

Twitter / @alextomo: They're shouting EDL sloga ...

They're shouting EDL slogans at cops


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 04:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Although I am reading that the police that have been deployed to deal with them are mainly re-enforcements brought in from Wales.  English nationalism is going to go down really well with them

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 05:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, lull, not lure.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Will cuts to youth services increase violent crime in the summer? | Local government network | guardian.co.uk

Last month schools and colleges across the country broke up for the summer, leaving children and teenagers with six weeks of freedom. For many parents, finding child-care during the holidays is difficult and as a result, youngsters can be left to their own devices while adults are at work, especially as funding for youth services is cut.

Professor John Pitts, an advisor to several local authorities in London on gangs and violent crime issued a stark warning to government last week about the risks involved when closing services for young people.

He said: "If you cut summer activities for young people, as night follows day you will see an increase in crime. My anxiety is that those gang members who were in school will now be on the streets. Coupled with cuts to the services they use and fewer youth workers who can mediate, those streets will be a lot more dangerous and I would expect the level of crime and violence to rise."



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:31:19 PM EST
Rioting for 'justice' in London - Features - Al Jazeera English

In a video posted on The Guardian's website on July 31, youth in the London borough of Haringey described the effects of the closure of eight youth centres, a move they said led to a growth in gang membership and crime - as they and their peers have nowhere to go after school.

A week before any window was broken or store looted, one of the young people in the video said: "The government doesn't realise what they're doing to us". Another adds, "there's going to be a riot".



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 04:41:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heresy Corner: Baying for broken glass

Late last year, in response to the student protests that saw Charlie Gilmour swinging from the centotaph (16 months) and a Rolls Royce carrying Charles and Camilla nearly everted, I wrote a parody of John Betjeman's Varsity Rag which contained the following lines:


It was almost like the Bullingdon as we bayed for broken glass,
For the rioting student nowadays is a better sort of class,


It seems I wasn't the only one to see a parallel between those events and the non-political boisterousness indulged in by members of Oxford University's Bullingdon Club, a fraternity in which both David Cameron and Boris Johnson were enthusiastic participants. Tom Scorza in his blog A Short Introduction to Cycling offered the following quote, attributed to Cameron and said to come from the "Oxford Book of Quotations":

"Things got a bit out of hand & we'd had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets." David Cameron, 7th June 1986.


Over the past couple of days this pseudo-quote has been Tweeted and re-Tweeted. Shorn of its tell-tale reference to the non-existent Oxford Book of Quotations, it has a certain superficial plausibility,


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:42:35 PM EST
No. Even if we are told that it is a made up quote, it is the lie that tells wider truths.

One truth is of the hypocrisy of the Tory party who celebrate their own juvenile vandalism but who seek to condemn that of the lower classes.

Another is of people who celebrate corporate plunder and mind boggling levels of profiteering at the expense of the majority of the country while condemning the  plunder of small shops by the lower classes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:49:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though Cowards Flinch: Rational choice rioting
Most people from richer areas, who have jobs or who have a good chance of getting a good job, will not riot in the next day or few because their retaining their job or job chance through not getting a criminal record is greater than any of the other incentives I have listed above...
It's as simple as that.

People from poorer, more deprived areas and backgrounds are rioting for different, shifting motivations, but they are doing so because they do not have enough invested in what the state can offer them to outweigh the benefits of that rioting.

That is, the state has temporarily failed, because a significant group of people in London have decided it is just not worth living within its jurisdiction.

What we do about it is a different matter, though for myself I think upping the incentive for more people to accept the state's jurisdiction is a pretty good idea.  Nevertheless, the logic of the state's failure should be inescapable, especially for right-wingers who believe that rational choice theory (RCT) is the best guide for the operation of society.

However, I suspect many of those that believe RCT is a good guiding philosophy for themselves and "the markets" will prefer not to extend thee same conception of basic human characteristics to young Londoners making their own calculations tonight.  They'll prefer to keep on calling them "mindless"



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:44:34 PM EST
good spot, thanks

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 12:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Guardian: Birmingham riots: intense anger after deaths of three young men
Community leaders appeal for calm after three British Asians rammed by carload of suspected looters in Winson Green

...

West Midlands police arrested a man near the scene and recovered a vehicle, which forensics experts are examining. They later launched a murder inquiry.

Groups of residents in Winson Green, the inner-city area where the men were killed as they tried to protect local businesses in the early hours of Wednesday, openly warned of inter-communal violence if the murder inquiry fails to produce rapid results.



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:09:40 PM EST
Comment is Free: The year we realised our democratically elected leaders can no longer protect us
The financial crisis, phone hacking and now riots. Where once we may have felt rage, now we can feel only impotence

...

The most unsettling reports have been of policemen standing back, apparently powerless to stop people as they smash and burn and steal. It's deeply unnerving to see those we expect to protect us incapable and in retreat. Read the comment threads and Twitter feeds, with their demands that "this must stop", or even for looters to be "shot on sight", and you see the signs of impotent rage, the desperate desire for somebody to do something.

The trouble is, we're getting used to this sensation. The news story competing for space on the bulletins was the world financial crisis, with the stock markets in London and across Europe fluctuating wildly. At one point the FTSE was down by 5%, coming after previous massive falls in London and New York. Once again, those in charge seem powerless to resist.



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:23:53 PM EST
What is becoming quite abundantly clear is that there is a large group of Britons who do not - and have been given no particularly compelling reasons to - view themselves as part of the "we" that is currently looking on in impotence.

And I imagine that this other group of Britons - the ones who are not included, who never were included, in his "we" - is feeling more empowered right now than it has in years. If not decades.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome:
There was a debate in France a few years ago about "la France d'en haut" and "la France d'en bas" ("upper France" and "lower France", or the elites and the normal people). People more or less understood the concept, but had a lot of trouble coming up with a definition.

So I proposed one, which I think is relevant to this discussion: people belong to "la France d'en haut" if they think they belong to "la France d'en haut".

ie not only do they have the "objective trappinps, as such, but they are are confident that they have them and that it's a recognised fact. and the tricky part is that it is largely a self-fulfilling thing.



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:43:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Guardian: Common ground
Having lived for years on a council estate, middle-class academic Gillian Evans set out to discover what it means to be be white and working class - with surprising results

...

I am not a complete outsider, but the anomaly of my status as a resident is pronounced: first, because I am, as Sharon continuously reminds me, "posh" and not "common" like her, and second, because my partner and the father of my children is black. The problem is that posh people don't live on council estates - they live in nice apartments and big houses - and Bermondsey people don't marry "blacks", especially not Nigerians.

Being posh and finding myself living and raising my children on a council estate in south London - because I have none of the money that equates with the manners (and education) that distinguish posh from common people - I have been forced, over the years, to come to terms with what it means to go down in Britain's social hierarchy; to understand what it means to become working or lower class, or what Sharon calls common.

To the self-described "common" who live in social housing, "posh" describes the middle class. The "common" are, therefore, largely the disenfranchised.

As a result of reading this article and its followup, I decided the House of Commons should be called House of Posh.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 03:46:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Riot costs could 'decimate' police authorities' funds

Funds held by English police authorities could be "decimated" by claims made for damage caused by the riots in English towns and cities.

Under the Riot (Damages) Act of 1886, insurers and the uninsured could claim costs from police authorities.

The Association of Police Authorities (APA) described the Riot Act as an "out of date law".

But the Association of British Insurers (ABI) said the regulations had worked well for 125 years.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 04:29:35 PM EST
The riots are a catastrophe | LabourList.org 2.0.2 | LabourList.org

They are a catastrophe for communities traumatised by looting, arson and petrol bombs - in many cases, such as Tottenham and Hackney, among the poorest areas in Britain. "It's poor people like who suffer because of these riots," one young woman told me just off Mare Street - where the worst of Monday's rioting in Hackney took place - her obviously shaken child clutching her leg.

They are a catastrophe for residents of London, Birmingham, Manchester and elsewhere, who feel terrorised in their own cities and even besieged in their own homes. Like all Londoners, I was pretty anxious on Monday as I cycled through Hackney at 10pm. There is a disconcerting feeling that trouble could flare up anywhere, at any time. Normal life still feels suspended.

They are a catastrophe for those who took part in the rioting and looting. I won't make a habit of quoting David Cameron, but when he told rioters that "you are potentially ruining your own lives, too", he had a point. There will be irresistible demands for the harshest possible sentences; Westminster council is already threatening to evict tenants involved in the disorder; and those who have taken part in the disturbances - on however big or small a scale - may well pay for the rest of their lives.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 07:23:24 PM EST
Disturbing fact is that some of the rioters are older and employed...
In order to them to PAY for the damage they first need to have a job...it's a catch.
At the moment I do not see any of politicians in UK thinking rationally. They promise to ask themselves why this has happened LATER. They should actually ask themselves what they are doing long time ago.
As we see reckless policies WILL sooner or later come to bite EVERYONE. Same with financial crises. Some may think that they are untouchable in their "gated communities" but they are not. They seem to forget guillotine...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 10:15:35 PM EST
A map of locations of confirmed incidents compared to deprivation.

http://maptube.org/map.aspx?m=ol&s=bBHFGlAlRcsKCSaXwRjAplwcCnYMCkid&k=http://orca.casa.ucl.a c.uk/~ollie/misc/londonriots_verified_20110809_1514.kml

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 05:00:19 AM EST
UK riots: Birmingham's Muslims and Sikhs debate retribution for deaths | UK news | guardian.co.uk

Spilling out in the road beside the Jet garage, where three Asian men were killed the previous night, around 300 Muslim and Sikh men gathered to debate how they should respond to the tragedy.

...After prayers and a silent vigil, men took turns to express their views. There had been fears that the meeting, held after last prayer of the day - Isha'a - would be a flashpoint, sparking a further round of rioting and looting.

It was clear from snatches of conversation that there were some in the crowd - a minority - who wanted to reap revenge on the black community, whom they held responsible for the deaths. They did not prevail.

It is hard to explain how the men gathered in the dark reached the conclusion they did. There was no leader; the forum was open for people to speak and disagree.

The consensus among most - after half an hour - was that a planned march should not take place, in part because it would be disrespectful to the families of those who died. Not everyone agreed - and it was impossible to know whether dissenters would break away later in the night and, in breach of the general will, seek retaliation.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 05:37:24 AM EST
Totally different spin in another paper:

Race relations on knife edge after three Asian men killed in hit-and-run - Crime, UK - The Independent

Police in Birmingham were struggling to contain swelling anger within the Asian community after a hit-and-run by suspected rioters killed three young men, two of them brothers.

Despite appeals for calm from senior officers, young Asian men vowed to defend their streets once more following an attack which has plunged a community into mourning - and awoken fury about what they believe to be a lack of police officers on their streets at a time of widespread unrest.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 05:53:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Daily Mash - Britain reminded that Melanie Phillips is not well
BRITAIN was last night urged to avoid the schoolboy error of thinking people like Melanie Phillips may have been right all along.

including the line

"And of course later today the looters will be condemned in Parliament by a bunch of people who stole money by accident.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 06:03:20 AM EST
Sir Hugh Orde: Water cannon make for good headlines - and bad policing - Commentators, Opinion - The Independent
Equally, to suggest human rights get in the way of effective policing is simply wrong. The proportionate use of force up to and including lethal force is both lawful and human rights compliant.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 06:16:23 AM EST
More about British policing: Police must show there is no bias against black people (By Brian Paddick)
The police should be the servants of the people, acting on behalf of the community they should be protecting. Failure to actively demonstrate that they are listening to and acting on community concerns, failure to align themselves with community priorities or show that they are "their" police, will inevitably result in a growing belief that the police are against the community, and not part of it.

I was a sergeant on the streets during the 1981 Brixton riots. Together with 10 officers hiding behind our plastic shields, we became the focus for community hatred, pelted with bricks and broken paving slabs. The police and the community tried to rebuild some kind of relationship - it took a long time. Twenty years later I became the police commander there. After 15 months, when I was moved out of Brixton, there were protests - it had been quite a turnaround from 1981. Do the people of Tottenham have to wait 20 years for the weekend's scars to heal?

Not if the police take action now to rebuild the burning bridges. In the aftermath of the Brixton riots, as we patrolled Railton Road and chased suspected criminals into the illegal gambling dens, those suspected of mugging were thrown back out into our arms, but the older black men guarding the doors would protect those we thought might have cannabis on them. They thought we were wasting our time policing "weed". Two decades later, it was clear from discussions with local community leaders that it was crack cocaine and heroin that were ruining young people's lives at that time, not cannabis, and that is what that community wanted its police to concentrate on.



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 04:08:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now put those two articles together with this one from the BBC: Looting 'reminiscent of LA riots'
"One of the first things we did initially was to back off from the flashpoint of the riot, but we realised after a while we had to send in more cops and just have an overwhelming show of force and take a lot of people to jail."

That was a similar approach to that taken by British police in London.

So that's one thing the LA police is not criticising.
"We have embraced community policing - we really work a lot more in partnership with the different communities and we do everything we can to keep things calm when bad things happen and make things better in any way we can.
British police is big on the concept of community policing (see Paddick above). Whether they do it effectively is another matter. But then
The former LAPD chief credited with driving this process, and dramatically reducing crime after the riots, is Bill Bratton - dubbed a "US Supercop" by the British newspapers.

At one point he was apparently being considered for the job as Britain's top policeman, the new Commissioner of London's Metropolitan police.

He is the man Prime Minister David Cameron is now turning to for help and advice.

<sigh>

He could just fund his own damn police.


Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 04:12:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See Brian Paddick criticises police over riots on BBC Question Time [video]

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 09:53:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now Is Not The Time For Speculation About The Riots In England - I Am Taking My Ball And I Am Going Home

Following the violent, disgusting and utterly unacceptable events that began in London last Saturday night and continued to spread across England for several days, bloggers, tweeters, commentators, pundits, politicians, random acquaintances of old Oxbridge friends of Newsnight researchers and ordinary people with functioning larynxes, Facebook accounts, or both, from all over the world and beyond, have been queuing up to provide what our American friends would describe as their 'take' on it all. Literally hundreds of thousands of words and images have been written, spoken, uploaded, photoshopped or typed out in a big hurry about the riots and the looting. All in vain.

I say 'in vain' because it is, or it at least should be, quite clear that now is not the time for speculation.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 02:57:57 PM EST
Worth a read.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 03:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yup, this too
Penny Red: Panic on the streets of London.
I'm huddled in the front room with some shell-shocked friends, watching my city burn. The BBC is interchanging footage of blazing cars and running street battles in Hackney, of police horses lining up in Lewisham, of roiling infernos that were once shops and houses in Croydon and in Peckham. Last night, Enfield, Walthamstow, Brixton and Wood Green were looted; there have been hundreds of arrests and dozens of serious injuries, and it will be a miracle if nobody dies tonight. This is the third consecutive night of rioting in London, and the disorder has now spread to Leeds, Liverpool, Bristol and Birmingham. Politicians and police officers who only hours ago were making stony-faced statements about criminality are now simply begging the young people of Britain's inner cities to go home. Britain is a tinderbox, and on Friday, somebody lit a match. How the hell did this happen? And what are we going to do now?
 In the scramble to comprehend the riots, every single commentator has opened with a ritual condemnation of the violence, as if it were in any doubt that arson, muggings and lootings are ugly occurrences. That much should be obvious to anyone who is watching Croydon burn down on the BBC right now. David Lammy, MP for Tottenham, called the disorder 'mindless, mindless'. Nick Clegg denounced it as 'needless, opportunistic theft and violence'. Speaking from his Tuscan holiday villa, Prime Minister David Cameron - who has finally decided to return home to take charge - declared simply that the social unrest searing through the poorest boroughs in the country was "utterly unacceptable." The violence on the streets is being dismissed as `pure criminality,' as the work of a `violent minority', as `opportunism.' This is madly insufficient. It is no way to talk about viral civil unrest. Angry young people with nothing to do and little to lose are turning on their own communities, and they cannot be stopped, and they know it. Tonight, in one of the greatest cities in the world, society is ripping itself apart.

excellent comments, for the most part

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Aug 13th, 2011 at 06:17:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excuse me, I may be stupid, but can anyone tell me is this sarcasm or is this real opinion?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Aug 11th, 2011 at 11:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heavy sarcasm, as it becomes clear if you read on beyond the quoted part.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 01:33:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't want to say (up to each one to see for themselves), but it is sarcasm.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 08:32:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are gonna love this ;)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smas hed-virtually-social-value.html

...predictable outcome of a three-decade liberal experiment which tore up virtually every basic social value.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smas hed-virtually-social-value.html#ixzz1UmnvnH9U
 



Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 12:36:57 AM EST
What has been fuelling all this is not poverty, as has so predictably been claimed, but moral collapse.

Hah...it goes together you clueless woman.
Narrative "I am poor but honest" has been made for poor parents to keep their children in same order and out of trouble. Anyway, where poor people have a chance to loot but on the streets as opposed to those rich who has so many channels and lawful opportunities to rob and still be considered honest people.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 12:45:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course these parents know their children are out on the streets. Of course they see them staggering back with what they have looted. But either they are too drunk or drugged or otherwise out of it to care, or else they are helping themselves to the proceeds, too.

As David Cameron observed yesterday, there are clearly pockets of society that are not just broken, but sick.
Melanie Phillips said every problem was instituted or exacerbated by the Labour government under Tony Blair

Melanie Phillips said every problem was instituted or exacerbated by the Labour government under Tony Blair

The causes of this sickness are many and complex. But three things can be said with certainty: every one of them is the fault of the liberal intelligentsia; every one of them was instituted or exacerbated by the Labour government; and at the very heart of these problems lies the breakdown of the family.
 

Oh shut up! Breakdown of the family has happened in western society but under ALL governments...left and right. There is much more to uncover on this issue then simple left / right ideologies of governing class.
If there is left at all for decades...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 01:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good comment on her text


"For most of these children come from lone-mother households." Good old Mel and her crystal ball. The fact is (remember facts? you see them occasionally in an actual newspaper, of which this is not one) that neither you nor I nor anyone at this point has the full facts about what has happened, never mind the kinship situations of those involved. This is so much right-wing frothing at the mouth. What strikes me as most remarkable is that bankers can loot the global economy with utter impunity, but when anyone else steals, it's a crime. Why should these people think any differently?


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 01:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's an Israeli take (probably not the one you were expecting)
Israelis better look carefully at England now. When I was a young boy my mother used to say that "a wise man learns from others' bad experiences, but a fool not even from his own." If the organised and just protest of the middle class in Israel fails to bring back the welfare state, labor rights and the ability to live in dignity, it is very likely that sooner or later we will see similar unrest in Israel too.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 02:19:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why are they using future tense to describe what Hamas has been doing in Gaza ever since the last PLO election?

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 09:41:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Three decades spans the Thatcher years. I suppose the counts as liberal utopianism?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 04:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well then you should probably read this

Twitter / @owenblacker: Wow. Amazing takedown of M ...

Wow. Amazing takedown of Melanie Phillips's ridiculous febrile rantings by @bobbyllew: http://bit.ly/ns3BFl


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 07:39:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 08:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And this from a minor celebrity who normally would have their PR person telling them to keep their head down

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 09:35:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is he? Is it no commonplace in the UK that comedians are among the most intelligent people and are privately depressed about the state of the world?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 11:49:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well I;ve often posted his comments here as he's heavily into electric vehicles, apart from playing the comedy robot in read dwarf.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 05:31:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tories on riot policing: too few, too slow, too timid | UK news | The Guardian

David Cameron is on a collision course with the police after the government used an emergency Commons debate on the English riots to issue a point-by-point dissection of the police's "insufficient" tactics during the week.

The prime minister praised the bravery of the police but said they had made a major miscalculation when violence first erupted in Tottenham on Saturday night after a demonstration over the shooting of Mark Duggan. Cameron said: "Police chiefs have been frank with me about why this happened. Initially the police treated the situation too much as a public order issue - rather than essentially one of crime. The truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge with different people doing the same thing - basically looting - in different places all at the same time."

But a few hours later, home secretary Theresa May, who opened the lengthy Commons debate on the riots on Thursday, warned that the failure of the police to contain violence in the early part of the week jeopardised a core British tradition. "Policing by consent is the British way," May told MPs. "But the police only retain the confidence of the wider community if they are seen to take clear and robust action in the face of open criminality. On Monday night it was clear that simply there were not enough officers on duty."

No discussion that the police3 held back on purpose, on hopes that it will get more powers. hough it seems at least they can achieve the undoing of the police cutbacks.

As for the Tories, the article lists their proposals for hash measures: a shopping list of lunatic right demands.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 01:41:32 AM EST
Of course they will misuse this for their "lunatic right demands".
But it will fire back...they are not thinking...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 01:54:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Murder investigation launched after Ealing riot victim dies | UK news | The Guardian

Richard Mannington Bowes, the man left in a critical condition after being attacked while trying to put out a fire during riots in the west London suburb of Ealing, has died, Scotland Yard said early on Friday.

Bowes, 68, died in hospital last night after he was set upon in Springbridge Road during Monday's disorder. The Metropolitan police said a murder investigation had been launched.

Detective Chief Inspector John McFarlane, of the Met's Homicide and Serious Crime Command, said: "This was a brutal incident that resulted in the senseless killing of an innocent man. I still need the assistance of the community who may have witnessed the attack on Richard to come forward and provide information or images they may have recorded on mobile devices. This information could be crucial in catching his killer."



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 01:43:05 AM EST
And about "black gangs" (meaning immigrants  multiculturalism bad etc.), look at the names here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-magistrates-court-list?intcmp=239

Also age and unemployment...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 02:39:43 AM EST
Indian subcontinent and Slavic names may be indicative of origin, some names are recognisably (West?) African, but English names can be both of blacks of Carribean origin and of whites. The photos in your other link show one skinhead, one black and one more white guy.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 03:52:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More about rioters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-courtrooms-country

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 03:00:53 AM EST

Again and again, the judges repeated the refrain "jurisdiction is declined". They considered the maximum powers of sentencing available to magistrates - six months in prison, or a £5,000 fine - to be insufficient, and so referred the case to the crown courts, where the cases will be heard before a jury. Very few of the accused were granted bail. At least one solicitor outside court six expressed concern at some of the courts' decisions, on a day when David Cameron had vowed that anyone charged with rioting should be remanded in custody and anyone convicted should expect to go to jail.

Rajinder Claire, who was representing several alleged rioters, said defendants who would normally be released on bail were being routinely remanded in custody. "The decisions seem to be being taken in a routine manner without enough consideration for the distinct factors of each case," he told reporters, "It certainly seems to me that it is being motivated by political pressure."

From other reporting (upthread?) it seems police also 'collected' any youth who walked the streets and ran away when police wanted to stop them.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 03:56:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At Camberwell Green magistrates, Nicholas Robinson, 23, an electrical engineering student with no previous convictions, was jailed for the maximum permitted six months after pleading guilty to stealing bottles of water worth £3.50 from Lidl in Brixton.

Six months for £3.50 of water? And how much for stealing £35 billion?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 03:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For that you might get a peerage.

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 03:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
£35 bn, you're a bold and nimble entrepreneur.

£3.50, you're a despicable thief. When England was properly run, it was a hanging matter.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 04:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it is becoming clear, from the whisky-quaffing heights of the gentlemen's clubs on tha Mall, that some youngsters have forgotten their 'place'...

DoDo:

the article lists their proposals for hash measures:

i have been wondering how long before they realise if they put the money spent on provocative 'policing' into free hash and dvds dropped from helicopters, this fuss'd be over in hours.

The Sorcerer's Apprentice

The best most insurrections can hope for, is to tie their oppressing state in knots, forcing it to spend ever escalating amounts on unaffordable and unattainable security. Al-Qaeda's goal was to do this to the West, and it seems to have worked: the west now spends a trillion dollars a year on wars and security that it cannot afford, but will not stop.

The moral hollowness of the left, however, is my topic here, because it is the key and final failure. We should expect those who hold the gates of commerce to want to extract vast tolls from their control of them. We should expect princes born to wealth to suck the riches of the world into their playgrounds in Dubai. This is their nature. However, the corruption of the left is not of its nature, and it is proof that the present discourse, the present economy, the present society, is going to burn, in a much larger magnification of London burning. The problem is that the present left is a conservative force, which is dedicated to keeping their part of the profits of privilege. They are not the oppressed, but functionaries in the more global extraction of wealth, and they merely want a better deal from the very corporations that they have erected. Lower debit card fees and better protections against their insurance companies. No windmills that might hurt their property values.

In short, a moral void which, none the less, passes moral judgments.

write on stirling

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 06:37:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Generation F*cked | Adbusters Culturejammer Headquarters

The UN's first ever report on the state of childhood in the industrialized West made unpleasant reading for many of the world's richest nations. But none found it quite so hard to swallow as the Brits, who, old jokes about English cooking aside, discovered that they were eating their own young.

According to the Unicef report, which measured 40 indicators of quality of life - including the strength of relationships with friends and family, educational achievements and personal aspirations, and exposure to drinking, drug taking and other risky behavior - British children have the most miserable upbringing in the developed world. American children come next, second from the bottom.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 08:21:48 AM EST
Yes...something is definitely "broken and sick"...But it smells rotten from the top...
Poor kids are just "collateral damage".


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 09:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great stuff...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 09:44:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ceebs:
British children have the most miserable upbringing in the developed world. American children come next, second from the bottom.

this is the real anglo disease, the seeds of it, in a nutshell.

it goes even beyond politics, though good politics could do so much more to address, then redress it.

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Aug 13th, 2011 at 06:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't find it now but theres a link questioning the internal logic of a Tory party comment blaming inter generational unemployment on the last labour government.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Aug 13th, 2011 at 08:00:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter / @clq: Point on the radio re coun ...
Point on the radio re council-house evictions: "It's a form of punishment that can only be imposed on the poorest ppl in society"#NotMyWords


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 07:40:17 PM EST
That is so terribly stupid...Most of them live with their parents (I suppose), so they are punishing parents for not being able to keep them in order. That's cruel because even those in much better position can't keep their kids in order (alcohol, drug use, partying you name it, even when they are not thieves).This is just NOT way to resolve this problem and it will back fire...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 08:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I've been saying all day, Collective punishment is hardly a measure of a civilised society

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 09:16:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aye, aye. Look to North Korea and their 'three generation retraining program'.
by epochepoque on Sat Aug 13th, 2011 at 01:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, they could borrow the bulldozer technique from Israel - and that doesn't apply only to the poorest. Much fairer.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 13th, 2011 at 01:38:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Trouble isn't over yet, says teenager who predicted riots | UK news | The Guardian

At 6ft 3in, with a loose gait and a large kit bag slung over his shoulder, 18-year-old Chavez Campbell is a striking figure as he walks past the boarded-up shops in Wood Green, north London. Last Saturday, riots erupted here, rampaging youths shattered shopfronts and filled their arms with anything they could grab.

A week before it began, Campbell, in an interview with the Guardian about cuts to youth services, predicted what would happen. Asked what he thought the future held, he said, simply: "There'll be riots."

Looking at his words again, he said: "I did see the riots coming and the government should have seen it coming, too. Jobs are hard to get and, when they do become available, youths don't get the jobs. There is nothing to do, they are closing youth clubs so the streets are just crazy. They are full of people who have no ambitions, or have ambitions but can't fulfil them."

The video of the interview is embedded in the article. The guy is very articulate (though he uses an accent barely understandable for me).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Aug 13th, 2011 at 05:01:57 AM EST
Twitter / @Heresy_Corner: What a difference a riot m ...
What a difference a riot makes: bit.ly/nCfoSV (blinding, suspended sentence) bit.ly/oxuvZQ (wearing stolen shorts)


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Aug 13th, 2011 at 07:51:25 AM EST
I can't find link but this morning news WAS that somewhere in USA people looted 1 in 10 grocery shops on that location. They organized through internet. They did not break anything they just walk in (in masses) and take stuff and went out (all on camera).It was only outside the shops that some had a fight between them
This seems like a new phenomenon. They did not even cover their faces...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 17th, 2011 at 12:58:10 AM EST
It was on ABC news this afternoon and interestingly I can't find anything on their site. This is not the first time that I saw some news during the day or night and then like it never existed you can't find it anywhere. If it wasn't for another person also watching I would think that I am going crazy...I am now not sure anymore...maybe it wasn't in USA (most of the people were black)...I do not want to misinform you people...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 17th, 2011 at 01:20:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/08/15/3293122.htm

The response to the recent wave of riots in English cities has exposed the ethical bankruptcy of both liberal left and neo-liberal right in English culture. (Significantly, there were no riots in Scotland, and but one isolated incident in Wales.)

In the case of the left, a latent callousness and authoritarianism has been laid bare. Many London liberals were quick to call for draconian police responses once they were given the impression - in part by exaggeration in the "quality" media - that their own civic precincts might be under threat.
...Thus some on the left at least initially supported new actions by Conservative local authorities to evict from council rented properties the parents of rioters. But as the conservative Peter Hitchens has pointed out, this would appear to violate a fundamental principle of British law, which holds that you cannot be held responsible for the criminal offences of others. Equally, a withdrawal of benefits from rioters implies an arbitrarily-imposed double punishment that lacks any real legal sanction.

The rioters share with the nation a problem that is at base ethical: if the young and the learning are to blame then the older and instructing (at every social level) must be all the more to blame.  


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 17th, 2011 at 01:37:46 AM EST


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]

Top Diaries