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Greek government nearing its end? The Thessaloniki Expo demonstration

by talos Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 08:16:08 AM EST

The Thessaloniki International Trade Fair (TITF) holds a special place in Greek politics. Traditionally it is there that the Greek Prime Minister presents his government's economic policy, every September. Leaders of other parties also give press conferences in response. It is the event that marks the beginning of Greece's political season, and as such it is an annual milestone, some times critical: A lame appearance in TITF in 2008, was a watershed for the Karamanlis government, the former PM, and a turning point for the Socialists on their way back to political power.


Traditionally also the TITF was ground for protests, as various groups demonstrated during the PM's visit, airing their grievances and their demands.

This year however what we're witnessing is of a different order of magnitude under a much darker mood.

First the PM: For the first time in history his exact residence is unknown, as he didn't show up in Macedonia Palace (where PMs traditionally reside for their visit) and his exact abode is presently unknown, although it is rumoured he is staying rather far away from the city center, near its airport. He also will not visit the kiosks of the Fair, again a first, and will avoid public appearances.

His main speech will not be delivered in the usual forum either. He will forgo the comforts of the Vellidio Convention Center, for some specially adapted port warehouse! The Prime Minister is hiding. He didn't even show up for the Fair's inauguration. He is hiding from thousands of protesters who have gathered in the city to protest the sum total of the, laughingly named, Socialists' policies.


Today 10/9/11, early morning encounter with protesters: The Prime Minister is booed as he visits the Mayor's office

There are to be ten demonstrations spread around the city as the PM delivers his speech. Everything from the official unions (which used to be PASOK strongholds) to parties of the left demos, anarchists, "indignados" and social movements, taxi-owners (who are also striking across Greece), even football fans protesting to their teams relegation to the second division - and of course students, who are protesting the new university law in Greece and the austerity imposed on public education: at this time there are over 300 university departments across the country under student occupation, promising a hot autumn... The city is full of demonstrators from around Greece - and cops. Thousands of cops.

Nearly eight thousand policemen are spread around the city. From sharpshooters at the roofs of main public buildings, to riot cops in every corner (and reports say this is not an figure of speech) of the city, to undercover cops infiltrating the demos. This is again unprecedented. As is the fact that yesterday there was a large demonstration of police officers and firemen against the government.  

The Prime Minister's speech starts at 8 pm local time. He is admittedly between a rock and a hard place. After some posing, his government caved in to the demands of the troika under "threats" that Greece will be expelled from the Euro otherwise. He is expected to defend the austerity policy and shift discussion to his proposals for the new tax system. This at a time when almost all of his tax measures to date have targeted the usual victims and the poor: Public and private sector employees that do not evade taxes, pensioners and even the precariously employed...

This whole insane austerity policy is of course bound to fail, and disappointment expressed by various EU leaders is pure theater. Thanks to the measures already implemented, the Greek economy has contracted a further 7,9% during the first six months of the year, non-seasonally adjusted apparently because the numbers would then be even more scary... (compared with a prediction pf -3% in early 2011, and an imminent recovery predicted for the end of 2011 by both the PM and the IMF)... Unemployment remained at 16% even in June even as the (decent) tourist season was starting. At the same time Greece is ordered to sell now as many and as much of its public infrastructure and companies it can, at rock bottom prices (as the Athens Stock Market has tanked), and there is talk of "special investment zones" with diminished labor rights and wages ~500 Euro, suggested by German industrialists (and seriously discussed by the Greek government) as ways to "increase investment".

Polls show the Socialists collapsing electorally, from 17 to 24% of the vote. Increasingly it is becoming hard to separate their rhetoric from that of the far right LAOS party - an ally by now. The conservatives are leading, but it seems that the sum of polling percentages for the two mainstream parties is stuck at around 40-50% (of those that will vote - because there is an intended 50% abstention rate according to the same polls, again a record).

In such a climate, the demonstrations and protests in Thessaloniki are seen as a huge test. I'm worried about the scale of police violence that might be unleashed, as last June it was only by luck that deadly injuries were avoided. Demos will also occur in most Greek city squares during the PM's speech. It is an open question whether the Greek government will survive September. It is an open question what our troika overlords will do in such an event...

Display:
Twitter updates from the ground at Thessaloniki in English (mostly) by IrateGreek and Teacherdude, general hashtag for events relating to the Thessaloniki demos and speeches #deth

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 08:30:13 AM EST
Also #tif76

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 08:51:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thessaloniki outside of the demos is a ghost town today... a few minutes ago:



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 08:59:10 AM EST
The police attack against the protesters has started and it is massive. On all fronts. The city is a war zone I hear. The PM is supposed to start his speech in twenty minutes. More soon.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 12:50:48 PM EST
It's difficult to follow (the protesters are spread all around the city) but it seems that the police are determined to stop protesters coming anywhere near the Velidio center (it turns out that the announcement about the port was a bluff). Tear gas, molotov cocktails, rocks, metal barriers. Very tense. In Athens there are people gathering now in Syntagma. I'll probably go see what's happening, there are not enough riot-police left in Athens to handle a large crowd I reckon...

In an act of surrealism that only he is capable of, the PM just tweeted a photo from the lecture hall he was supposed to have started speaking in 40 minutes ago, but is only just starting...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 01:42:23 PM EST
Not to put too fine a point on it: Situational Awareness.

The fact there aren't as many cops in Athens could easily turn into a situation where the cops that ARE there are more brutal while repressing protests.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 02:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
from your sig to your diaries, so lucky to have your work here at ET, talos.

European Tribune - Greek government nearing its end? The Thessaloniki Expo demonstration

Socialists collapsing electorally, from 17 to 24% of the vote.

typo?

stay safe, and good luck for your country, it sounds like the overlords want to really do a number on you all.

i mean, 500E a month work camps, firesales on everything from national communication companies to the acropolis, wtffff?

i console myself that the word 'hubris' was coined in your great country, and i think when the youth of europe see what 'markets' have in store for them acted out in thessaloniki and athens, there will be a continent wide refusal to permit this to stand.

as is their wont, the sociopaths will go too far... the only reason people have let things go to this surreal stage is that they have been gulled, then drawn and quartered, and are only starting to comprehend the sheer scale of it now.

it sure isn't the first time decisions made by impeccably groomed and cologned ubermenschen behind closed doors results in blood in the streets far away from their hushed retreats.

maybe it will take greece's troubles hitting media centre stage to remind us all again what that democracy thingy was for anyway... cuz right now it seems like a dongle hanging off a broken finance machine. people unite when injustice oversteps itself, to remind the world that we are not born to be slaves to any reliably fallible human systems, so push us too far at your peril.

be safe talos, thanks again for these riveting reports!

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 06:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Polls: I meant that the raw poll numbers given for the socialists range from 17-20% and this is projected to 24%, down from 44% in the 2009 elections.

Thank you for your kind words! I'm just reporting what's happening because I feel that this concerns people far beyind Greece - much of the EU and possibly beyond. We have reached a point where being simply a democrat is some sort of radicalism  

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 06:29:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
@MatinaStevis twitted most of Papandreou's speech.
I refuse to translate rhetorical crap. Will only be live-tweeting policy-related stuff & significant statements from Papandreou #deth

Papandreou: reforms... are an upward struggle among a international thunderstorm. Our priority is to save the country from default #deth

Papandreou recounts run-up to 2010 deficit revelation, cites bad statistics and chronic overspending & weak revenues #deth

Papandreou: ...the banking sector that did not always manage the national wealth in a transparent and correct manner #deth

Papandreou: We decided to fight to avoid a disaster, to avoid default and to make sure we stay in the euro #deth

Papandreou: we are giving a huge fight, seriously negotiating for our collective and national interest #deth

Papandreou: we made decisions that have guaranteed our financing needs until 2020 & improvement of debt profile through extension to 30 yrs

Papandreou: the decisions we made are unique in the history of Europe, we cannot abandon it and waste our sacrifices #deth

Papandreou: we are fully determined determined to stick to our end of the deal. Starting w sticking to the July 21st decisions #deth

Papandreou: we are prepared to make more decisions, do whatever it takes to ensure the country stands tall #deth

Papandreou: despite the deeper-than-expected recession this year, we will stay the course... to achieve a primary surplus #deth

Papandreou: at the point where Eurozone stands right now, every time we delay, any hesitation we show, puts the country in peril #deth

Papandreou: we will not allow Greece to become the scapegoat for problems in Europe #deth

First break for ovation for Papandreou at "Yes, we can make it" line. #deth

Papandreou: Who will fund our growth if our banks can't reach the market to borrow? #deth

Papandreou now outlines expenditure cuts & revenue performance in 2010 #deth

Papandreou outlines improvement in exports, tourism figures in H1 2011 #deth

@dexpatia [@MatinaStevis he also said "how will growth return if deposits don't return, deposits that today...are returning"!!!!!]

Papandreou: we are fighting against entrenched interests... we need every single citizen's help (weak applause) #deth

Papandreou: we are aiming at China and India, as well as the US, for tourism #deth

After tourism bit, Papandreou turns to agriculture #deth

Papandreou: tomorrow we start distribution of land to young people who want to go into agriculture #deth

[Ha, just got the little theme the speech-writer got into the Papandreou address. He outline policy, follows w "can we do it? of course!"]

Papandreou: I announce that Greece is to begin searching for natural gas in the Ionian sea and around Crete #deth

I stand corrected: search for oil & gas will be south of Crete, not "around" Crete as previously tweeted. Apologies #deth

Papandreou outlines expenditure programmes of 3.5b euro to combat youth & women's unemployment #deth

[Many of you asking about the "land redistribution to youth who want to go into agriculture" thing. I have no details but it's public lands]

Papandreou: we hope that those who have made money here will participate in our efforts, like rich ppl abroad asking to be taxed more #deth

[Papandreou implicitly lashes out against highly remunerated public-sector workers, mega-haves & newspaper/TV owners #deth]

Papandreou: I am determined to fight to the end against everything and everything holding Greece back (ref to trade unionists, closed shops)

Papandreou: We can make it and we can prove those seeing Greece as a failure wrong #deth

Papandreou: I look around me and see ppl of my generation... we have given huge burdens to the youth. We owe the youth a lot #deth

Papandreou: I know our youth want to leave the country... I understand them... but I ask you to not give up... the country needs you #deth

Papandreou: I ask the banks to respect the support they've received from the state & the ppl. The state supports them.

Papandreou:Any bank that needs recapitalisation, this will be done through common stock so the ppl can benefit from future profits #deth

Papandreou: I ask that all political parties act responsibly.... It's not me pleading. It's the motherland #deth

Papandreou: to those hoping that if Greece leaves the euro, they can buy up the country cheaply, every Greek will stand opposed #deth

Papandreou: I 've said it before, I'm not here for my position or to get re-elected, I'm here so that we can succeed together #deth

[2 major announcements by Papandreou: plan to distribute state land to young aspiring farmers/search for oil&gas in Ionian & S. Crete #deth]



Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 07:19:14 PM EST
It is sickening to see how at the time when country is close to total collapse he is more like begging those rich people to voluntarily pay more taxes (like Buffet was just talking about it in USA) instead of his government (and opposition) coming with compulsory tax paying for rich.
Also those in Greece, who have been involved in this international fraud/pyramid scheme (including him), should end up in jail with confiscation of the money instead being begged to pay more taxes.Ridiculous...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 09:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was hit up to buy diaspora bonds. I didn't because my money would go to the pockets of wealthy bankers.

There is literally a Greek anti-tax movement that was instituted AFTER the crash. It's called the "I won't pay movement."

You have to think, with the rescue of Greece being a totally crazy program, especially the latest with the bank swaps, what difference would it make? Taxes paid by the rich are not going to save them from massive default, and really now, it's not going to convince anyone in the EU to do anything.

If the rescue program was workable and gave them a shriveled dwarf of a carrot, then I might agree with you. But there's really no point in my money going into that black hole.

by Upstate NY on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 09:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The "I won't pay movement" is more about hiked toll prices, and ticket costs. That sort of thing.

The real anti-tax movement is coming soon and it will be called the "I can't pay" movement...

And I agree, diaspora bonds might help if there was some sort of plan. There wasn't and there isn't...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 09:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I sent money to my family in Gizi and Agrinio. Diaspora bonds? Pshaw!!!
by Upstate NY on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 09:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a sad moment for people who believe in a democratic state which provides for some measure of equality when they start defending NOT paying into state coffers.

I am doing the same.

Money that is currently captured by the state (I mean PortuGreece - at least) is mostly use to institute a new order. Destroying the public health system, the public education system and transferring money to banksters.

Let is default, let it collapse. I do not want to pay to set up the system that will enslave of my offspring.

by cagatacos on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 05:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was hit up to buy diaspora bonds. I didn't because my money would go to the pockets of wealthy bankers.

I totally understand this. I feel the same about sending money to Serbia. I would rather give it to people on the streets in Serbia then to anyone in any kind of power. I send to my family and few friends who are in especially hard situation...I sometimes (not too often) give to our church to distribute to those in need.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 01:34:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to think, with the rescue of Greece being a totally crazy program, especially the latest with the bank swaps, what difference would it make? Taxes paid by the rich are not going to save them from massive default, and really now, it's not going to convince anyone in the EU to do anything.

Yeah...it may very well be too late to do anything of substance worldwide but...is that the reason not to do any of the righteous thingies that will eventually have to be done at some distant point? So looks like we all would rather prolong this agony as long as possible instead to face the music straight away...about now...My feeling is the longer we postpone the imminent, the damage will be grater...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 02:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stevis is serious and generally does a good job, without quotes. But to attempt to draw meaning from the lips of Papandreou is torture. I don't know what they are paying her but it ain't enough. It was the epitome of vacuousness.

I was looking at the twitter response to Papandreou. Hilarious. I think he would now be a figure of fun, more than anything else, if he wasn't so hated. He actually said that his aim is to have at least one working member in each family. This means that he's aiming not to pass the 50% unemployment limit. Really. Most of the other stuff, except the oil exploration bit was otherworldly... It's like having  Chauncey the Gardener from "Being there Mr. Chance" as PM.

There weren't enough people in Syntagma, as soon as the crowd was somewhat gathering, the police broke the demo up with teargas and arrests. I think this was a missed opportunity and a bad idea to concentrate only on Thessaloniki. Though you have to see the number of cops that filled the city to believe it. At this juncture the Greek PM needs the sort of protection shown below to move from one point in the city to another. Protection from his electorate:



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Sep 10th, 2011 at 09:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
About demonstrations, strikes et al....

I mostly feel that these are devices used by deeply religious people. It is quite obvious that, during the last decades, demonstrations, strikes, etc... rarely work (to the point that the ones that work can almost be named). This comes from strong ideological purity. The bibles (of many flavours in the left) say: "strike, demonstrate, ...".

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein.

On the other hand, in the current context, careful economic activity can go a long way: Like not buying diaspora bonds and sending money to families directly.

Or emigrating.

Interestingly the types of demonstrations/strikes that work the better are the ones with clear revolutionary character (e.g Tunisia). To change policy in a democratic state... not so much.

by cagatacos on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 05:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Trouble is that nowadays people do not fight to just put one government instead of another, one party instead of another. They are all bad...we tried them all. So where from change that we need could or would come? We have no clue. Unions? Nop...usually in pocket of so called left and wouldn't hurt them. As we are going through this crisis we ousted so called left governments (like in UK) just to get things even worse for most of the people with those right governments.
It was much easier to go against dictator especially because people who are fighting dictators still believe in democracy, haha. Yes protests and strikes do not work and did not work against Milosevic too. It was so frustrating. At some point we in our party started to talk about so called "civil disobedience". That was too hard to organise in any shape or form (especially with no power to even stop paying tax). The closest they came later was when people started to reject to watch main news at 7:30 pm and instead they would stand at an open window and bang to their dishes loudly during news time. I wasn't there but people said it was magnificent to hear this noise through all Serbian cities every night.That gave them great satisfaction because they finally had filling that they are in power of at least that little thingy to decide that they are not watching news crap.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 07:11:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes people are protesting and they do not notice that they are.

Take for instance the case of Portugal. It is forecast that 500.000 people will emigrate until 2020. 5% of the population. Probably >10% of the WORKING population. Assuming the forecast is right, this ASSURES systemic collapse: Think of the GDP fall just because of the population loss. Again, working population. Now think of the effect to debt-to-GDP ratio.

Nobody is protesting, but the end result will be much more powerful.

by cagatacos on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 07:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is forecast that 500.000 people will emigrate until 2020. 5% of the population. Probably >10% of the WORKING population.

Sounds like Poland after 2004. Look at Poland now.

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 07:57:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Look at what in Poland specifically?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Economic growth, unemployment, debt and deficit...

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:21:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia: Economy of Poland
one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, with a yearly growth rate of over 3.0% before the late-2000s recession[,] It is the only member country of the European Union to have avoided a decline in GDP, meaning that in 2009 Poland has created the most GDP growth in the EU. As of December 2009 the Polish economy had not entered recession nor contracted. According to the Central Statistical Office of Poland, In 2010 the Polish economic growth rate was 3.8 %, which was one of the best results in Europe.


Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not think the comparison makes much sense and the EU/world context is totally different.

For me the main point is the impact of a lot of productive people going away (and retirees staying behind). Unless something strange happens, you will see loss in wealth (either lack of creation or economic activity). With correspondent impact on debt-to-gdp ratio.

Default-through-emigration.

by cagatacos on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 10:33:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They also said that 500 000 people (mostly young and educated) left Serbia during wars. Seems like no one cared at the time...they couldn't offer jobs to them anyway. They still can't all tho they are happy to give jobs to those that came back recently because of their western experience education. But most of those who left then are gone for ever...their children may be Serbs in exile for one generation and next generation wouldn't even know that they have Serbian ancestry...For me that's a big loss for Serbia and gain for Australia, Canada , NZ , USA etc...
A lot of Brits are coming here lately but they are coming to the same/similar culture...and language it's not the same...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For some reason I can't see the youtube video above. Is that just me or is it general. The link is here

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 06:31:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:25:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Strange, it only displays if there is no other text in the comment...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:26:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Test:

Yatta yatta bing bing

Economics is politics by other means

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:29:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh? It wouldn't for me (or talos)...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:34:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What make are Greek police bikes? BMW?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bought on credit?

Economics is politics by other means
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 08:34:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They're still buying. They just bought some totally new munitions (ones they've never used before) from their new friends in Israel for several hundred million.

Lunacy.

Greece out of the eurozone is going to ratchet up military procurement tremendously (it's fallen in the last year from it's 4.5% GDP average).

by Upstate NY on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 10:17:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The DIAS squad (which is what these motos are) has BMWs. Others have Japanese and Italian bikes

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 12:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I refuse to translate rhetorical crap. Will only be live-tweeting policy-related stuff & significant statements from Papandreou #deth

Well he did end up translating mostly rhetorical crap...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 05:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
She. Yes. But that was the most meaningful of the rhetorical crap. As I mentioned the only concrete thing the PM said was about drilling for oil and gas in the Ionian sea and South of Crete. This just before he highlighted his gvt's emphasis on Green growth.

@cagatacos: Well in my lifetime, demonstrations and certainly strikes, have led to concrete gains. I've seen laws been withdrawn, and raises given, and there is the Polytechnic uprising of 74 here which played a big role in destabilizing the junta.
It is significant also that a majority of the population support these sort of actions. And if not this, what else?

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 06:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, democracy prevailed in my country because people took to the streets in 74 (AFTER, ONLY AFTER, a good military coup). So demonstrations sometimes work.

Now, since 74 how many demonstrations worked? I can think of one or two (in probably hundreds or thousands).

What else to do? There are so many options (I tend to defend things with ECONOMIC consequences - since economics seems to be the thing to the epoch - especially LOCALISING the economy). One of the problem of people who like demos is that they tend to see all other options as lesser.

As far as I see, demonstrations, at least up to now did not have a great effect in Greece.

But then again, I am not against demonstrations. Surely do them. Just not do ONLY them. And do not be optimist on the results... disappointment might follow.

by cagatacos on Sun Sep 11th, 2011 at 07:40:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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