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European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 6-7 October

by DoDo Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 03:43:36 PM EST

 A Daily Review Of International Online Media 


Europeans on these dates in history:

1582 - no such dates in Italy, Spain, Portugal and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, where the adoption of the Gregorian calendar was pioneered with a jump from 5 to 14 October

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*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:55:39 PM EST
EUobserver.com / Economic Affairs / Cyprus seeks €11.5 billion bailout

BRUSSELS - Cyprus is reportedly seeking a €11.5 billion credit line from member states using the euro to help bailout its troubled banks and close its budget gaps.

The island-nation's bank exposure to Greek debt restructuring already cost it some €4 billion earlier this year.

The exposure compelled Nicosia in June to request an EU-IMF bailout after its two largest banks, Bank of Cyprus and Cyprus Popular Bank, revealed massive fiscal holes due to Greek debt exposure.

Finance Minister Vassos Shiarly reportedly said on Thursday (4 October) the banks will need another €5 billion in new capital, reports Bloomberg. The troika of the European Commission, IMF and European Central Bank however put the figure closer to €10 billion.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pressure grows on Spain to opt for a bailout - Business News - Business - The Independent

Pressure continues to mount on Spain's Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, to request a bailout from the European Central Bank as the country strained to sell €4bn (£3.2bn) of debt.

Although the latest auction of Spanish two, three and five-year bonds was subscribed, the cost of borrowing rose again. The average cost of borrowing for three years rose from 3.83 per cent to 3.96 per cent.

Its two-year bond yields have also risen sharply in recent days. This is a result of Spain in effect playing a game of chicken with bond markets ever since the ECB last month unveiled a scheme to buy the bonds of eurozone members that requested it, provided tough conditions were met.

Michael Hewson, CMC Markets analyst, said: "People expect Spain to ask for a bailout, so they buy the bonds and push the yields on the debt lower. But the more they buy the bonds, the more Rajoy thinks Spain might be able to get away with it and is less likely to ask for a bailout."



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:55:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greek PM: society will disintegrate without urgent financial aid | World news | guardian.co.uk

"Greek democracy stands before what is perhaps its greatest challenge," Samaras told the German business daily Handelsblatt in an interview published hours before the announcement in Berlin that Angela Merkel will fly to Athens next week for the first time since the outbreak of the crisis.

Resorting to highly unusual language for a man who weighs his words carefully, the 61-year-old politician evoked the rise of the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party to highlight the threat that Greece faces, explaining that society "is threatened by growing unemployment, as happened to Germany at the end of the Weimar Republic".

"Citizens know that this government is Greece's last chance," said Samaras, who has repeatedly appealed for international lenders at the EU and IMF to relax the onerous conditions of the bailout accords propping up the Greek economy.

He talks as if he himself were blameless in Golden Dawn's rise and the spread of the Weimar feeling.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:56:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Economic Affairs / Germany backs pooling of debt, no joint liability

"We had the idea of the debt redemption fund before the wise men group," Thomas Westphal, director for European policy in the German finance ministry told a conference in Berlin organised by the centre-right European People's Party.

A panel of economic advisors last year suggested the setting up of a joint fund for countries whose total debt exceeds the EU limit of 60 percent of the gross domestic product.

But Westphal made clear that countries needed to remain liable for their own debt.

"There are calculations that the joint debt above 60 percent would amount to some €3,000 billion. Joint liability for such a sum would never fly in Germany, but that doesn't mean that the whole idea of the debt redemption fund is dead," Westphal said.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:56:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Headline News / Parliament backs €9 billion EU budget hike

BRUSSELS - MEPs defied calls by national governments to rein in EU budget spending on Thursday (4 October), instead restoring most of the €138 billion settlement proposed by the European Commission for the 2013 budget.

The European Commission's budget proposal had called for a €9 billion increase on the 2012 budget, equivalent to an additional 6.8 percent.

Goran Farm, the Swedish deputy who leads for the Socialist group on the Budget committee, described the parliament's position as "very modest, with a clear focus on jobs and growth."

Member states had agreed to a 2.8 percent increase but the EU's seven net-contributing countries, which include Germany, France and the UK, insist that they will not cede more ground at a time when governments are imposing national austerity plans. Critics of the council position say that governments are trying to block funding to pay for projects they have already agreed to.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Barroso preaches better spending to "Friends of Cohesion" | EurActiv

Leaders of the "Friends of Cohesion" group gathered in Bratislava today (5 October) to discuss common tactics ahead of the battle for the EU budget. Commission President José Manuel Barroso said the "Friends of Cohesion" should join the "Friends of Better Spending" in what he called "The Friends of Growth". EurActiv Slovakia contributed to this article.

The Prime Ministers and representatives of the "Friends of Cohesion" met in Bratislava to make their case for preserving the cohesion funds in the next long-term EU budget for 2014-2020. Barroso and European Parliament President Martin Schulz attended the meeting.

The member states were represented by the Prime Minister of Bulgaria Boyko Borissov, of the Czech republic Petr Petr Necas, of Croatia (who is due to join the EU on 1 July 2013) Zoran Milanović, of Estonia Andrus Ansip, of Hungary Viktor Orbán, of Latvia Valdis Dombrovskis, of Poland Donald Tusk, of Portugal Pedro Passos Coelho, of Romania Victor Ponta, of Slovenia Janez Janša. Cyprus, Greece, Lithuania, Malta and Spain were represented at lower level.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does sinister Joker Barroso mean by "Better Spending" and "Growth"? No Spending and Deflation? Right, but specifically he's referring to this:

Countries frown at German `blood, sweat and tears' plan | EurActiv

"More growth through better spending: four challenges"

A German plan issued a month ago, by which (for the seven-year EU budget period starting next year):

Countries frown at German `blood, sweat and tears' plan | EurActiv

"all funds from the Common strategic framework must be taken into account when it comes to sanctioning member states which have failed to comply with the guidelines set forth for the surveying of fiscal and economic policies"....  "this applies in particular to those cases in which a member state is subject to a macroeconomic Excessive Imbalance Procedure..."

It's all about punishment. Though rest assured Germany's current-account surplus which is tickling the statutory limit of 6% will not be subjected to an Excessive Imbalance Procedure.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 02:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Justice & Home Affairs / Belgian diplomat suspected of being Russian spy

A Belgian spokesman told EUobserver on Friday (5 October): "We can confirm that an official from our ministry was suspended from his functions a bit over one year ago following indications of a security breach. The ministry of foreign affairs has filed a complaint with Belgian prosecutors and an inquiry is ongoing."

Belgian magazine MO broke the story earlier the same day in an article citing sources in the Belgian state security service, the VSSE.

It said he is suspected of helping Russian intelligences services, the FSB and SVR, to set up false identities for spies in Belgium, the home of the EU institutions and Nato headquarters.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Radical Islamist cleric Abu Hamza and four other terror suspects lose bid to halt extradition - Crime - UK - The Independent

Five men accused of terrorism charges - including the hook handed preacher Abu Hamza and the controversially detained suspects Babar Ahmad and Talha Ahsan - lost their last minute appeal to stop their imminent extradition to the United States today.

The decision by two High Court judges to proceed with the extradition was welcomed by the Government but was greeted with consternation by those who had campaigned for Ahsan and Ahmad to be tried in the UK.

The five men are all wanted by American prosecutors on a variety of unrelated terror charges.  Abu Hamza, a firebrand jihadist preacher who once turned Finsbury Park mosque into his personal fiefdom, is accused of trying to set up a terrorist training camp in Oregan and helping Islamists take and kill hostages in the Yemen. Khalid al-Fawwaz and Adel Abdul Bary, who have been held without charge since the late 1990s, are accused of being members of Al-Qa'ida in London who helped the group take responsibility for the 1998 United States embassy bombings in East Africa.

Babar Ahmad and Talha Ahsan are alleged to have set up and run a number of pro-jihadi websites that operated under the banner Azzam Publications and encouraged a US Navy sailor to leak them classified information.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exclusive: Police secretly handed the FBI evidence on Babar Ahmad while claiming their own case against him was collapsing due to lack of evidence - Crime - UK - The Independent

Metropolitan Police detectives agreed to nine separate requests from FBI agents to provide information on Babar Ahmad at a time when the case against the long-imprisoned terror suspect was collapsing because of a lack of evidence, The Independent can reveal.

Court documents unearthed in the United States reveal how senior detectives involved in the initial investigation of Mr Ahmad regularly carried out searches and enquiries on behalf of the FBI and even sent American agents two encrypted floppy disks that were found at the south Londoner's home.

The data set, including the disks, forms part of a dossier of evidence that was sent across the Atlantic but was never seen by the Crown Prosecution Service which dropped the initial charges against Ahmad paving the way for his long battle against extradition to the United States.

Critics of Ahmad's extradition say not enough was done to make sure that the 58-year-old was tried in a British court and that his prosecution has been effectively outsourced to the United States.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece floats proposal for Macedonia name solution | EurActiv

Greece has tabled a draft memorandum of understanding apparently aimed at seeking a solution to its long-standing name dispute with EU candidate Macedonia. But EU diplomats expressed disappointment at its content, which doesn't appear to make new proposals.

The draft memorandum, published Thursday (4 October) on the Greek foreign ministry website, repeats diplomatic language already used in bilateral documents, stressing that both sides would commit to respecting each other's national sovereignty and territorial integrity, and renounce any present or future territorial claims.

In a direct reference to what is widely seen as appropriation of ancient Greek history by Macedonia (see background), it calls for both sides to agree that they would refrain from actions or statements that risk undermining the negotiations, "including through the use of symbols constituting part of the historical or cultural patrimony of the other."



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why can't they just admit that Macedonia was a Greek kingdom largely outside what is now Greece ? And that Alexander the Great, the greatest ever Greek, and it's his memory we're arguing about, came from somewhere outside as well.

If Bulgaria were to change its name to Thrace, that wouldn't mean it would want to annex Thessaloniki, even tho' it was part of Bulgaria within living memory.

Jut like the Greek defence budget, it's all based on childish fantasy

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 03:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to get your facts straight.

  1. The Kingdom of Macedon was fully inside what is now Greece.

  2. Alexander was born inside what is now Greece.

  3. The  Kingdom of Macedon expanded in neighbouring and other territories before and after Alexander.

  4. Bulgarians do not claim the history and the identity of a neighbouring population.

  5. The region of Macedonia in Greece covers more than half of the wider region now referred to as "Macedonia", and the people identifying as Macedonians in Greece are more than half of the population of this wider region.

  6. The people identifying as "Makedonski" ("Macedonians") from across the border are only a quarter of the population of the wider region.

  7. The people identifying as "Makedoniski" do not accept that they are Slavs in origin and that they speak a Slavic language, and are exposes to state propaganda daily.

  8. The Greek defence budget wouldn't exist if Turkey, in theory an ally, haven't threatened with war officially, if Greece was to exercise its rights under international law.

As Winston Churchill put it:

"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is."

by phyle on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 07:35:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
*exposeD
by phyle on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 07:36:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear phyle,

Welcome to ET

Otherwise, don't you think Greece has other and far more important problems than ancient and futile quarrels?

And what is your take on those more important problems?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 09:28:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course it has bigger problems. But, first, this isn't an ancient quarrel. The main thrust of it is from 1947-1949. As well, this one does have potential to become much bigger in the future.
by Upstate NY on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 03:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's about ancient history. It may be dangerous, but it's futile.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 03:36:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's really not about ancient history.

The media may want you to believe that, but this is about a history that is within living memory for millions of people.

60 years ago, Macedonia tried to cleave the whole of Greek Macedonia away from Greece. This is what this all is really about.

by Upstate NY on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 10:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Irredentist arguments, from one side or the other, always claim the sanction of (ancient) history and generally concern invented traditions. Imo, getting into arguments about the birthplace of Alexander the Great is typically futile.

I'm not denying the risk of conflict. But I would like phyle to tell us what s/he thinks about those problems confronting Greece, that you agree are bigger.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 02:25:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I'm saying is that this Alexander the Great stuff didn't even exist prior to 20 years ago. It was never part of the Macedonian playbook.

Let me give you an example of what has happened: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2009/0321/p01s01-wogn.html

In an intense media campaign, locals are told that ethnic Macedonians are the proud direct descendants of Alexander, and thus a people responsible for spawning the white race of planet Earth, from the Caucasus "to the seas off Japan," according to a public service spot on national TV.

The "Alexander-mania," as critics call it, is partly a vote-getting strategy by the ruling party, known by its initials VMRO. Doubts exist as to whether party leaders actually believe the claims, but they are being sold as truth. The failure last spring to get a clear NATO invitation prompted fury in Skopje, and the Alexander campaign is seen as an effort to up the ante.

Greeks and Macedonians have not been battling over Alexander for many years. This is all new. As is the ethnogenic idea pushed by politicians that the Macedonians are the progenitors of the white race. Go back and interview Gotse Delchev--I'm sure this stuff never figured into his domain.

The question is, Why is this happening? Because of the Balkan Wars and Civil War, many Macedonians were expelled from Greece (along with people like my uncle, 12 years old at the time, abducted/inducted into the rebels, lived in the Ukraine until the age of 60 when he came back to Greece). They tried to separate Greek Macedonia to incorporate it into Yugoslavia.

All the rest of this stuff is propaganda after the fact. If you read books on the birth of Macedonian consciousness in the late 1800's inside Greece proper (Anastasia Karaskidou's is one good ethnographic text) the new ethnicity was not based in antique questions, but rather in linguistic/cultural differences between Macedonians and Bulgars.

by Upstate NY on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:47:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I'm saying is that this Alexander the Great stuff didn't even exist prior to 20 years ago.

I don't think that contradicts afew's argument about invented traditions a bit.

The question is, Why is this happening?

You ask the question, but then you go back 60 years, and don't ask whether Macedonian nationalism has a need to separate from (and oppose the claims of) Bulgarian, Serb and Albanian nationalism, too.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
60 years isn't antiquity, though. It's within living memory.

I honestly don't understand what you mean by my "claim not contradicting afew."

I was saying that this is not a feud stemming from antiquity, but rather the last 100 years. So of course it contradicts.

by Upstate NY on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 02:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh!? I can't find anyone claiming that the feud stems from antiquity. I can find afew claiming that irredentists make claims about antique history using invented traditions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 06:38:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, at this Macedonian propaganda page, the first quoted Macedonian-nationalist document evoking Alexander the Great is dated 1878.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've done a lot of reading on this. Propaganda page is right. there's a guy name Blaze who actually invents old documents. But what have I read? Academic ethnographic research on the issue from people that have won international awards on this.
by Upstate NY on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 02:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cool for you but not a valid argument in debate. You'd need to quote or link specific passages that support your contentions.

In this case, the nature of my link as propaganda page is irrelevant to my use (the page's propaganda aim is not the connection of past Macedonian nationalism and Alexander but to claim a continuous Macedonian existence, ignoring stuff like the evolution of modern Macedonian nationalism from a multi-ethnic/multi-lingual territorial concept into a Slav-only one). What's relevant is whether the examples of Macedonian-nationalist documents which contradict your claim by evoking Alexander well before 1991 are genuine. I find one scanned on-line (an article in a French magazine from 1896), and the sentence linking Aristotle and Alexander to a claim of Macedonian independence is indeed there on pages 242-243 (pdf pages 258-259).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 07:04:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You do realize that I'm referring to the Macedonian gov'ts positions don't you?

Trust me, Greece has its share of propagandists. I am not referring to them when I write of Greece's positions on this issue.

by Upstate NY on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 10:53:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
locals are told that ethnic Macedonians are the proud direct descendants of Alexander

...while Greek nationalist propaganda claims that antique Macedonians were 100% Greeks and claims a fundamental separation between Slavness and Greek/Macedonian-ness. And the truth is probably that there was a continuous mixing of people first in the ancient Macedonian Kingdom, then in the Roman Empire, and then in the Ottoman Empire, and a part of the ancestors of modern Slav-speaking Macedonians were among Alexander's Macedons.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:48:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you point to that Greek propaganda? I don't think anyone says there was no mixing of peoples. The concern is over a univocal claim to ethnicity and also land.

Besides, what was the definition of a Greek back in the days of City States? The actual term defining the entire people, unified under Alexander for the very first time, emanates from a region (the Graecus tribe) that is well north of the classical city states, much closer to present day Albania.

We are talking about urban tribes here that never had an ethno-national identity. So, I think people are well within their rights to say that there was no Slavic element to the ancient Macedonians and that they were Greek. In fact, I struggle to think how anyone could believe otherwise.

But nor am I interested much in that debate.

by Upstate NY on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 02:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you point to that Greek propaganda?

Well this or this fits the bill IMO. The first even explicitly denies a Slav link to antiquity. The second also brings your maps without context, and a banknote without context (it was an inofficial design pushed by nationalists and wasn't adopted as official banknote).

Besides, what was the definition of a Greek back in the days of City States?

I think admissibility to the Pan-Hellenic Games is a relevant qualifier here.

So, I think people are well within their rights to say that there was no Slavic element to the ancient Macedonians and that they were Greek.

It's okay to claim that there was no Slavic element to ancient Macedonians, but it is also kind of irrelevant (ancient Bulgarian wasn't Slavic either). To claim them "thoroughly and indisputably Greek" is less justified, however, when one considers that it could even have been a question in antiquity, and considers the conquests of and mixing within the Macedonian kingdom (the male ancestral line of the king isn't everything).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 07:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sigh.

I was referring to a gov't program, not of individuals.

Though your second link is from 200 Classics scholars from around the world, so why would there research qualify as propaganda? You tell me.

I also don't understand your last point about Macedonians. Whatever the term Greek connotes to you, it may be something quite different for others. After all, Greek national or ethnic consciousness really wasn't there prior to the 1800s. Before that the community was both religious and based in usage of the Greek language.

Thus, the question is a cultural one. When we look back at the ancients, what makes them Greek is precisely these questions: gods, cultural traits, foods, rituals, language, etc. There were no Greeks back then as we know them today in the ethnonational sense. It seems to be an entirely different question which I find adequately addressed by the 200 Classics Scholars you linked to.

by Upstate NY on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 10:46:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When the Swedish empire was at its top, Rudbeck (scientist, principal at Uppsala university and really Serious) had the following to say about why.

Olaus Rudbeck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Between 1679-1702, Rudbeck dedicated himself to contributions in historical-linguistics patriotism, writing a 3,000-page treatise in four volumes called Atlantica (Atland eller Manheim in Swedish) where he purported to prove that Sweden was Atlantis, the cradle of civilization, and Swedish the original language of Adam from which Latin and Hebrew had evolved.[2]

Some invented traditions are nuttier then other.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 02:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting.

Only thing I find on wikipedia is this:

Greek Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Among analysts emphasizing the KKE's perceived control and guidance by foreign powers such as USSR and YSR, some estimate that of the DSE's 20,000 fighters, 14,000 were Slavic Macedonians from Greek Macedonia.[35] Expanding this reasoning, they conclude that given their important role in the battle,[36] KKE changed its policy towards them. At the fifth Plenum of KKE on January 31, 1949, a resolution was passed declaring that, after KKE's victory, the Slavic Macedonians would find their national restoration within a united Greek state.[37]

Could you expand on what you are referring to?

Otherwise I would have assumed that the roots would be the Balkan Wars of 1912-13 since that is when this area was carved up between Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece, each claiming Macedonians as their brethren (more or less). Maybe it does in the Macedonian version of what the conflict is all about?

Anyway, I think the claim that FYROM using the name of Macdonia would increase risk of irredentism is a weak one.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 09:02:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
UpstateNY probably means some irredentist aspirations of the short-lived independent Macedonia at the end of WWII (checking August 1944 - January 1946), of which the KKE connection could be the strongest element, but I haven't found any specifics. However, according to the United Macedonia Wikipedia article, those irredentist aspirations are older, going back to an 1893 revolutionary organisation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 03:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Macedonian maps show Greek Macedonia as part of Macedonia. These are gov't maps. They refer to Greek Macedonia as Aegean Macedonia (Tito's coinage). These are the dog whistles people who think the dispute is silly tend to miss. Remember, this is the Balkans. Irredentism is people's middle name.

The history I'm referring to is from the Greek civil War. The best point of reference would probably be Mark Mazower's book AFTER THE WAR WAS OVER. The Macedonians tried to cleave Greek Macedonia from Greece. There was a huge rift in the guerrilla movement because of this. It broke apart. The Yugoslavian plan to take Thessaloniki was in large part a factor in the demise of the Communist rebels. They split. In the aftermath of that loss, the Macedonians were expelled from Greece (along with a great many other Greeks).

by Upstate NY on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:51:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you referring to the 1913 map? I say pot calling the kettle black. And even if irredentism is people's middle name, I agree with ASKOD that the claim that FYROM using the name of Macdonia would increase risk of irredentism is a weak one.

On the KKE and the Macedonian issue, I think you are painting a too simplistic picture that ignores the nuances and changes in official KKE policy and doesn't mention the use of the Macedonian issue in anti-KKE propaganda.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:13:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm referring to current maps. As in, USED by the Macedonian gov't right now.

I don't believe I am ignoring nuances, and if I were, I certainly wouldn't go to Wiki for education on them. I cited academic research by respected authors in earlier posts. It's not becoming of either of us to ignore those in favor of wiki. Others besides the already named Karaskidou and Mazower on this issue are Stathis Kalyvas who looked at doings in Evrytania, the Pindus mountains and Macedonia during the Civil War. All these researchers show most definitely there was a cleave in the KKE/People's Front Union precisely because the KKE ultimately figured out the Front was taking a Nationalist approach and wanted to sever the region. The KKE was always seeking equal rights for all, but no autonomous states, never mind separatist territories.

But look at what you get instead on the wiki page:

The quote is referenced as KKE's policy for "giving Greek soil to the northern enemies of the country", a fact that can't be crossed referenced with any of KKE referenced literature of that era.

Mark Mazower has several chapters in his book devoted to precisely this question. Can't be cross-referenced? Mazower has proof of this. The KKE split into a Slavic dominated wing and the Greek wing over precisely this issue, so it was not Royalist propaganda at all.

Besides, the wiki page is contradictory since it makes many references to cleaving the territory, and then says that the Royalist claim can't be cross-referenced.

Mark Mazower is not well-liked by some of the Macedonians for his research. See here:

http://david-edenden.blogspot.com/2007/03/grozdan-popov-on-mark-mazower-on_14.html

On this page, you'll see doozies like this:

In the Greek Civil War (1946-1949) that followed World War II, the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia fight on the side of the Greek Communist Party (KKE) as it promised them their rights after the war. About half of the 35,000 soldiers of DAG were Macedonians. On the liberated territory in Aegean Macedonia 87 Macedonian schools were opened, newspapers in Macedonian were published, and cultural and artistic associations created. But after few years of KKE's success, the communists lost the war, and the Macedonians were once again stripped of their human rights. 28,000 Aegean Macedonian children, known as 'child refugees', were separated from their families and settled in eastern Europe and Soviet Union in an attempt to save them from the terror that followed. Thousands of Macedonians lost their lives and great numbers of the Macedonian villages were burned to the ground.

Thus: he is wrong, Mazower is, labeling Dimitar Vlahov as Bulgarian. Such a mistake indicates Mazower's dilettante perception and understanding of the history of Salonika and its natural background.

So now you have tens of thousands of children stripped from their homes and parents? But they did this in "an attempt to save them from the horror." The versions are totally contradictory, not to mention the lack of acknowledgment for the many thousands of Greek children who were taken north of the border, and were surely among the 28,000 cited there. When you see the twisting in such descriptions, it's much easier to believe historians such as Mazower who actually cites documents and ethnography from the era.

by Upstate NY on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 02:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm referring to current maps.

I request sources (preferably ones accessible on-line). Other than historical maps depicting a 1913 division, I can't find anything newer than 1992.

I cited academic research by respected authors in earlier posts. It's not becoming of either of us to ignore those in favor of wiki.

This is an on-line debate, not an academic debate. I cannot check your written sources, you'd have to quote relevant passages if they aren't quoted somewhere on-line, otherwise your general claims aren't any better than the linked Wikipedia page. In fact the linked Wikipedia page references several books, and you seized upon one passage without sourcing.

Besides, the wiki page is contradictory

Of course it is, being edited by several people.

since it makes many references to cleaving the territory

That's what I call ignoring the nuances: all you focus on is the aspect of a territory being removed from a unified Greece, without the various concepts of multi-ethnic states and super-states

and then says that the Royalist claim can't be cross-referenced.

No, the Royalist claim denied in the unsourced passage (which you didn't quote) is "the will to collaborate for this goal with the Bulgarian organizations of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization and the Thracian Revolutionary Organisation".

Mark Mazower is not well-liked by some of the Macedonians for his research

I'm not sure whom or what you are arguing against here.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 06:33:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then online discussions will be forever damned to fall prey to propagandists who claim there are no sources when researchers and academics publish in an old media, dig through archives, show proof that refutes such claims.

This is twice now you've claimed there was either Serbian propaganda or else now Greek Royalist propaganda to whitewash what has been described as objective forces as ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1980s and (in the case of the Greek civil War) attempts by Macedonians to cleave the country.

These are very quick dismissals.

by Upstate NY on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 10:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I add that while you focus on the Greek Civil War and its aftermath, you ignore the ethnic cleansing by various methods in the three decades prior.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 08:02:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the 3 decades prior to that, you had massive wars and massive population movements. Yes, these were ethnic cleansing. I'm not sure what you can do about it. It was horrible. The Greeks actually got the worst of it in the region. Theirs is the only one that the International Genocide Scholars recognize as an actual genocide.

What are we talking about here except the Romantic Nationalization of the region into ethnicities, where before it didn't exist. Anyone who knows the history of the MANY Balkan Wars during the time realizes that the Bulgars and Macedonians were at war against the Greeks. Multiple times. They grabbed Greek Macedonia during these periods. The Greeks grabbed it back. There was undoubtedly a fifth column inside Greece at the time. There was an influx of Greeks into the region from many distant outposts. In that context, I'm not sure what you want me to do with this information, why it fits precisely into the discussion about the Civil War.

by Upstate NY on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 10:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Real irredentism is a serious matter indeed and good enough reason for Greece to try to stop Macedonia from joining any alliances Greece is part of.

I checked wikipedia on Macedonia naming dispute and found this tucked in the 2008 UN proposal (the rest was handling of the name).

  • Greece will support the integration of its neighbouring country into EU and NATO
  • both countries will confirm that they have no territorial claims towards each other

If Greece primary concern is with territorial claims, it would be wise to drop the name thing as it just seems petty and diverts attention from the real question. But I gather from what you have written that there are also political forces in Greece that likes to have this conflict ongoing, and sanity appears in general to be an unlikely option in politics anywhere.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 02:55:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The forces in Greece against Macedonia are ascendant (obviously), as in the neo-Nazis. But ingeneral, the issue could have been solved when Macedonia actually agreed to Greece's current position back in 1992. But back then, New Democracy felt the need to curry favor with neanderthals and rejected the compromise. In retrospect, some have argued (in light of Macedonia's current tack), it may be that Macedonia would have pulled a common Balkan trick (which is to pretend one is reasonable and willing to compromise only to find a red-line as soon as one's interlocutor actually agrees with the disputed position).

But I don't agree with such people. The Macedonian leader at the time, Kiro Gligorov, has always been quite reasonable, and since his tenure ended, he has been highly critical of the name dispute parameters, critical of both sides. He is now not well-liked in Macedonia, but his subsequent stance tells me that Greece absolutely blew these negotiations back in 1992-1994.

This is primarily why I said they should let the country be named Macedonia. I simply disagree with people who tend to diminish the dispute into pettiness and/or the bizarre.

by Upstate NY on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 03:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If everyone agrees on where the border is, why does the name matter? An irredentist claim on Greek Macedonia by FYROM wouldn't wash anyway. There's at least three layers of generally recognized treaties saying where the border is, and none of the great powers care enough about the issue to start opening the Balkan borders to general revision.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 09:57:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Greece should drop it, personally.

That being said, I can't agree with Jake on this one. I think international arbiters are sufficiently corrupted to actually consider border disputes in their purviews (as with the ex-Yugoslavia, Cyprus, and Greece's current troubles with Turkey in both the Aegean and Thrace).

I don't think international politics is robust enough to definitively tell the people of the region that borders are inviolate. Greece views this through the perspectives of Cyprus, Imia/Gavdos, Georgia, Azerbaijan/Armenia, Kosovo.

I think things are sufficiently arrayed against Greece that it should drop demands at this point, and this is more or less punishment for Greece's positions in the early 1990s when an agreement could have been made but New Democracy in the period wanted to gin up revaunchist sentiment. Big mistake.

Nonetheless, recent history there tells us that there is most certainly an irredentist approach to the borders, coupled with a significant Macedonian minority on the Greek side which can present a fifth column.

I do not believe anyone would support Greece if, in the worst case scenario, Greece felt it had to launch operations inside/outside Greece to secure the border.

by Upstate NY on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 03:09:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But FYROM has neither the standing army, industrial base or population to challenge Greece without outside support.

"Outside support," in this case, means "Russia." But Greece is not Georgia, and Russia is not Turkey. There is no reason for the other great powers to tolerate Russian expansionism in the Aegean region the way they might tolerate Turkish expansionism in the same area, or Russian irredentism in Central Asia.

And if Russia does decide that it wants to carve up Greece, and the other great powers decide that they can live with that, then Russia doesn't need FYROM to provide a pretext. It's not that hard to generate an international incident.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:29:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kosovo had a standing army? It really doesn't take much. You don't do such things in the Balkans with standing armies.
by Upstate NY on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kosovo had outside support from the Americans and was in the American sphere of interest. Serbia had outside support from Russia and was in the American sphere of interest. Contrast Ossetia, which had outside support from Russia, and was in the Russian sphere of interest, whereas Georgia, with outside American support, was in the Russian sphere of interest.

The outcomes of those conflicts are instructive.

And if you believe that the American or British will let a Russians set up a Kosovo style client state with Aegean blue water ports, then I have a bridge to sell. They'd sooner let Panama take over the Canal Zone.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 07:08:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, Great power support isn't everything. NATO drove out the JNA, but what about afterwards? NATO isn't a particularly efficient occupier when the local population doesn't support the NATO-endorsed local forces and authority. In that light, it matters that while Kosovo was over 90% ethnic Albanian before the conflict already, the non-Greek population of the northern provinces of Greece isn't anywhere near that even in the imagination of Macedonian nationalists. To boot, the population of the areas claimed by historical Macedonian nationalism in Greece is more than the current population of Macedonia, with 790,000 in Thessaloniki alone – there is no reality to an attempt to suppress, absorb or cleanse that many, even with Great Power support. So whatever the noise level of nationalist propaganda emanating from Macedonia's (not at all sympathetic) government, I think a serious aspiration to cleave 'Aegean Macedonia' from Greece exists only in the imagination of Greek nationalists.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 01:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say there are a lot more Slavic Macedonians in Greece than you imagine. They even have a political party, the Rainbow Party, that received over 30,000 votes in one election.

But, of course, the irony here is also that you point to Kosovo as having 90% Albanian population prior to the war. Not so. This was a reversal after the war. It went from 60% Albanian in the 1970s to 80% prior to the war. But that was after 15 years of violence by the KLA (they had killed many more Serbs in that period than Serb police had killed Albanians). This lead to the exodus of the 20% of Serbs in those two decades. it was precisely that phenomenon that Milosevic traded on in 1989 when he declared to Kosovo Serbs that "they will never dare beat you again."

I think these numbers are important because they show how gradual shifts in the region make for unstable borders.

Granted, I don't think Greece expects anything as explosive as Kosovo, but there are pockets all over the Balkans that are more indicative of the possible troubles, such as Sanjak, Krajina, East Slavonia, with large irredentist populations in the tens of thousands. This is different than Kosovo's 1.8 million, but we've seen territory in these regions enter a nebulous realm within the last 15 years.

by Upstate NY on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 03:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say there are a lot more Slavic Macedonians in Greece than you imagine.

I'm not sure what you think I imagine, but I went by claimed numbers, of which half the population or about a million was the highest (ascribed to Macedonian activists in Greece in John O'Shea's book Macedonia and Greece and in this HRW report), but that includes those claimed to be assimilated or of mixed descent. The Macedonian government apparently claims 230-270,000 (see HRW report again). For a more realistic number, from a 1999 report:

GREEK HELSINKI MONITOR (GHM) &

Local authorities have acknowledge the presence of some 100,000 "Slavophones," while researchers have given twice as high as estimate (200,000). However, those with a Macedonian national identity can be estimated to between 10,000-30,000. Indeed, the political party "Rainbow" which was created in 1994 and has campaigned for the recognition of a national Macedonian minority, received 7,300 votes in 1994 and 5,000 in 1999, two elections it contested alone: these figures correspond to some 7,000-10,000 citizens of all (not just voting) ages

I note that Rainbow never received the 30,000 votes you claim: its share of the vote tended further downward even after 1999.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 07:59:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I got the 30,000 figure wrong. It off the top of my head. but thanks for the numbers. I think those are big and significant numbers. Remember, there were only a few hundred thousand Serbs in Krajina. How many Hungarians in Eastern Slavonia?
by Upstate NY on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 09:58:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This was a reversal after the war.

Even 80% to 92% would hardly be a "reversal".

It went from 60% Albanian in the 1970s to 80% prior to the war.

Granted not "over 90%" as I remembeed, but it was 81.6% by the time of the 1991 census already, and must have risen above 85% by the time serious conflict started.

that was after 15 years of violence by the KLA

The origin of the UÇK, the extremist party LPK formed in 1992 and UÇK started its terrorist campaign only in 1996, just three years prior to the NATO intervention. (You apparently ascribe prior violent actions claimed by Serb nationalists to the UÇK, but more on that later.) And throughout that time and even before, Yugoslav authorities did their part to induce ethnic-Albanians to flee, too.

they had killed many more Serbs in that period than Serb police had killed Albanians

Half of the killed Serbs were policemen, though (and they also killed lots of 'traitors'), and the main form of ethnic cleansing (on both sides) was chasing people from their homes rather than killing them.

it was precisely that phenomenon that Milosevic traded on in 1989

You don't seriously think Milo is a reliable source? Alarmist Serb-nationalist claims of ethnic-Albanian violence in the eighties were seriously exaggerated, if not fabricated.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 08:43:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The KLA's origins popped up well before your citation. They immediately fought against Rugova's parallel institutions AFTER the lifting of autonomy. It was labeled a terrorist group by many European countries and the USA in hat period.  The KLA even killed many of Rugova's own deputies.

While the KLA formed in the tail end of the Bosnian war, the groups inciting the fighting during the 1980s were its progenitors. The leaders of the latter KLA were active in groups such as the LPK (Kosovo People's movement). This began in 1982. They were aligned against Rugova.

I find it odd that you are whitewashing this entire history, quite frankly:

EXODUS OF SERBIANS STIRS PROVINCE IN YUGOSLAVIA from NY Times 1982 (Archived)

''The nationalists have a two-point platform,'' according to Becir Hoti, an executive secretary of the Communist Party of Kosovo, ''first to establish what they call an ethnically clean Albanian republic and then the merger with Albania to form a greater Albania.''

Mr. Hoti, an Albanian, expressed concern over political pressures that were forcing Serbs to leave Kosovo. ''What is important now,'' he said, ''is to establish a climate of security and create confidence.''

The migration of Serbs is no ordinary problem becuase Kosovo is the heartland of Serbian history, culture and religion. Serbs have been in this region since the seventh century, long before they founded their own independent dynasty here in 1168. 57,000 Have Left Region

Some 57,000 Serbs have left Kosovo in the last decade, and the number increased considerably after the riots of March and April last year, according to Vukasin Jokanovic, another executive secretary of the Kosovo party.

The 1981 census showed Kosovo with a population of 1,584,558, of whom 77.5 percent were ethnic Albanians, 13.2 percent Serbs and 1.7 percent Montenegrins. The population in 1971 of 1,243,693 was 73.8 percent Albanian, 18.4 percent Serbian and 2.5 percent Montenegrin.

It is just not true that the Serb dead in the decades prior were mainly policemen. There was an ongoing campaign that targeted people.

Yet another article on the situation pre-Milosevic in 1989. This one linked to by FAIR, which is considered an objective source in the USA:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2743

Also see: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1459

Is this really all Serbian Propaganda as you say it is?

Quite frankly, the thread here seems to me like a lot of pie-in-the-sky lala Kumbaya thinking, whereas in the Balkans, ethnic minorities organize into precisely this kind of dangerous element. They are all aggrieved, they all start trouble, Greeks, Macedonians, Turks, Albanians, Serbs, Bosnians, Croats. They are quite adept at it, given 20th century history (and the first decade of the 21st as well). They have their reasonable people, the Dzindic's and Rugova's and Gligorov's, etc., but also their highly questionables.

by Upstate NY on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 10:26:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, the USA had an interest in applying pressure to Serbia. Really? Or was there a lack of interest? The guerilla movement had been going strong for at least a decade and a half. Seems the USA did not take much interest at all. Remember, Madeline Albright awoke one morning with news of Racak (but that's another story) and declared Kosovo a cause worth fighting for. There was no strategic interest until the uncovering of an anti-insurgency massacre.

But the Greek perspective is littered with this kind of thing. From double-dealings by Kissinger in Cyprus, to the role of NATO in constantly undermining Greek national security.

by Upstate NY on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 03:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, the USA had an interest in applying pressure to Serbia. Really?

Yes. Serbia was the last remaining Russian client on the Adriatic seaboard. (And the US likes to throw a random small country against the wall once in a while to remind everyone to be nice to Americans or they'll bring DemocracyTM to your country.)

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 02:24:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I buy that, but the bankers accomplished this by sinking the Yugo economy in the 1980s. Really, Milosevic was a guy the diplomats dealt with many a time, but by the 1980s, the Yugos were already going to the IMF and World Bank. Economic warfare? Yes.

But...

Recall George HW Bush's reaction to Germany's initial recognitions in 1990 and 1991. They were highly critical of Germany and other Europeans, and thought it was a horrendously bad idea to pressure the Serbs in this fashion. if they really wanted the Serbs tweaked, they could have easily pushed Germany into the vanguard.

This is also why the UK and US diplomats Cyrus Vance and Lord David Owen actually cut a deal with the Serbs in 1991 prior to the 100,000 deaths that is not very different at all from the Dayton Agreement in 1995.

I have my doubts. The conspiracies about pipelines and such running from the Black Sea through Kosovo seem like fantasies now, and would have been better accomplished through other means (if they existed at all).

by Upstate NY on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 10:31:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no reason for the other great powers to tolerate Russian expansionism in the Aegean region

If I were Greece I would sell an Aegean island near the Bosphorus to the Russian Navy in exchange for money to pay down all the Euro debt.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 07:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I was Greece I'd threaten to do it. That would suffice, I imagine.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 07:11:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Island of Limnos has a wonderful secluded inlet right next to the airport...

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 08:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I were Greece I would know that a long, painful process lay ahead of me if I did.

Oh, of the kind that can actually hurt the ruling class, of course.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 02:19:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To do you really think it is a good idea to slander a small (and discriminated against) minority as a fifth column?
by IM on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can understand fearing Yugoslavia and it's designs but Macedonia?
by IM on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:32:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece didn't even exist back then.

What period are you talking about?

There were the city-states, subsequently united under Alexander.

Alexander's home was within modern-day Greece.

In 1996, Greece and Turkey almost went to war. Turkey to this day has a casus belli against Greece should Greece claim its rights as a signatory of the international law of the sea.

by Upstate NY on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 03:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ban on gay rights march could hurt Serbia's EU candidacy | EurActiv
Serbia's decision to ban this weekend's gay pride march because of security concerns has prompted criticism from EU officials who warn the the move undermines Serbia's potential accession to the European Union.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Enlargement / EU report: Western Balkan states held back by lawlessness

BRUSSELS - The European Commission's new enlargement strategy says corruption and organised crime are the biggest obstacles on Western Balkan countries' path to EU membership.

The paper, obtained by EUobserver on Friday (5 October), provides a general overview of the pitfalls and progress towards joining the EU in the Western Balkans, Turkey and Iceland.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Blackmailing is not going to do any good...and people are sick of it. I have just seen rep-song coming from Serbia (so they are youngsters)strongly against globalization, USA and even EU...they seem not to be interested  in accession and just want to be left alone. They want to go back to rural areas and live life that their grandparents lived...Now I want it too but I am old and I do not understand  this world anymore, which is kind of normal, but when young people want to run away from "progress" there must be something smelly there. Song is here all tho you can't understand it mut it's a good video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fDpqOufuHi8

by vbo on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 11:17:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The accession criteria are clear and unambiguous on this point: Equal rights for sexual minorities, or no accession.

If Serbia has enough bigoted assholes that such a commonsense demand is the dividing issue for accession, then I frankly wouldn't want to grant them voting rights for the European Parliament. We have enough bigoted assholes voting for MEPs as it is.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 09:57:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not think you really have Equal rights for sexual minorities in EU or am I not good informed? For example is marriage legalized everywhere in EU?
We are not talking about equal rights , we are talking about parade. This parade is canceled because police refused to get injured again.
Can anybody tell me in how many EU cities you have this parade? And most of all WHY NO ONE IS ASKING ALBANIANS ON KOSOVO TO ALLOW  THIS PARADE IN PRISTINA just to see how that would go....
by vbo on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 11:37:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We are not talking about equal rights , we are talking about parade. This parade is canceled because police refused to get injured again.

Then maybe police should round up the people who were threatening injury. Starting with the priests who preach hate from the pulpit.

Can anybody tell me in how many EU cities you have this parade?

All of the EU-15 capitals, certainly. A couple Eastern European countries who were allowed in on promises rather than actions in the last round of enlargement may not host parades. Which is why we should not make that mistake again.

And most of all WHY NO ONE IS ASKING ALBANIANS ON KOSOVO TO ALLOW  THIS PARADE IN PRISTINA just to see how that would go....

We are.

But "they're doing it too" is not an argument.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 12:19:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on, Jake, you know that, if religious people would be offended by a public display, this must be banned. With greater reason if the offended people might get violent. Public displays by the offended parties may be banned, too, especially if they happen to be in France, on the argument that they might get violent. And so on.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 12:41:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on, Jake, you know that, if religious people would be offended by a public display, this must be banned.
-------
It is not about religion at all ...it's about aesthetics.
Why anybody would want to see fat/ugly naked asses in his face? Well I do not want to. Or display of  sexual acting on the street. If one wants it is available on porn sites. Nothing to be shown on the streets in peoples face.
As I said fighting for gay's rights is much more successful using other avenues of protest.
by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 03:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it's not about religion, then there shouldn't be any significant preachers speaking against the parade.

Disagreeing with the aesthetics is not a valid reason to ban a political protest.

And it is simply false that in-your-face shaming of illegitimate reactionary bigotry is ineffective. It is crucial, both as a measure of freedom to openly express minority sexual orientation and in winning that freedom.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:39:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it's not about religion, then there shouldn't be any significant preachers speaking against the parade.

Do you really expect significant (or any) Christian orthodox preachers to support parade? Then you don't know a single thing about Christian Orthodox Church. You can bet that even pope will support parade sooner...
I said " it's not about religion" for me but it is certainly not about religion for those counter protesters that are violent toward gays...you will not find them at church , ever...Just for the different reasons but it's not about religion in any case...it's about culture. Yeah right Serbs are not that much in to the "progress" and you can expect them to come closer to your views in masses in " about 100 years" as they use to joke...But mostly these days they seem to despise western "way of life" aka culture...so it may take longer...
by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 10:46:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mostly, the countries which have become liberal (i.e. non oppressive) in social values actually got there through the progressive elements grabbing hold of the cultural agenda, and leading people (who were in their majority either conservative or backward or both) towards enlightenment.

If you allow those conservative and backward elements to dominate the cultural agenda (e.g. by banning gay pride or whatever), then you are setting those backward ideas in concrete.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 11:07:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you really expect significant (or any) Christian orthodox preachers to support parade?

No, of course not.

But then, I also expect the Orthodox Church to support fascism. The Catholic one always historically has, and I have been given no reason to expect that the Orthodox version is less of a far-right venture.

I said " it's not about religion" for me but it is certainly not about religion for those counter protesters that are violent toward gays...you will not find them at church , ever...

How much are you willing to bet on that?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 12:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How much are you willing to bet on that?
-----------
A lot.
by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 09:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apart from the horrible aesthetics of their garish costumes, I have a principled objection to seeing them drilled and regimented in military fashion, and I suspect that it's all done to flatter the latent paedophile instincts of the men who watch those obscene parades.

If I can round up enough like-minded people to disrupt their parades, and to assault policemen who defend them, I guess I can get them banned.

Will you help me, VBO?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 05:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not funny at all.
by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 07:47:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not a rebuttal. (Humour is a personal thing, anyway.)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 07:48:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You making excuses for allowing bigots and priests (but I repeat myself) to censor civil rights activists isn't funny either.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 09:08:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I do not like what they do and I am not making excuses for them. I am making my reasons for being against (any)sex parade clear...
by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 09:24:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And eurogreen made his reasons for being against any sort of scout parade clear.

If you allow every thin-skinned, self-appointed judge of good taste to ban events from the public space, then pretty soon you have no public space.

But of course, it's only the people whose sense of aesthetics you find agreeable who should have this privilege.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 09:35:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah right...
by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 10:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not about religion at all ...it's about aesthetics.

Yeah, because gays are, you know, disgusting.

Keep digging.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 08:48:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah right...you always read my mind...and somehow you always read it wrong...
by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 10:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We are.

But "they're doing it too" is not an argument.

-------------
Oh yeah...Albanians on Kosovo do not even have laws about this matter because they claim like "they do not have this problem"...they do not have gay people I suppose like Ahmadinejad , if I remember well...
We all know that when it comes to parade ( any sex parade at all) I am old fashioned and I do not agree with you. For me there are other ways to protest discrimination and parade is just showing off...Showing off when it comes to sex is not my cup of tea.

by vbo on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 08:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kosovo is still not applying for (and certainly does not qualify for) membership in the European Union.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:34:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kosovo is technically and formally ( until both sides sign otherwise)  part of Serbia and all of this accession joke is farce.
Serbs do not really want to EU but would like EU passports and money... EU really does not want Serbs in EU but would like the strategic military position, new market, cheap labor and resources and making Serbia dependent on EU in any possible way so Serbs do not get too close to Russia, China etc...
So it's more "like" : "Serbia  kind of would like to end up as EU member and EU kind of would like to make Serbia EU member". Everything seems real but is only " like". So the story is going on and on...
by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 08:01:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kosovo is technically and formally ( until both sides sign otherwise)  part of Serbia and all of this accession joke is farce.

You're the one who keeps bringing up Kosovo in this context. Yes, it's a farce, but you're the one writing the script for it, and the title suggests that you intended it as a drama.

Serbs do not really want to EU but would like EU passports and money... EU really does not want Serbs in EU but would like the strategic military position, new market, cheap labor and resources and making Serbia dependent on EU in any possible way so Serbs do not get too close to Russia, China etc...
 So it's more "like" : "Serbia  kind of would like to end up as EU member and EU kind of would like to make Serbia EU member". Everything seems real but is only " like". So the story is going on and on...

Well, that sounds like an excellent argument for not letting Serbia into the EU at all.

Here's the thing about the way the EU does foreign policy: It makes people want EU passports and EU money, and then demands that they submit to EU policy in order to get them. That's a good way of doing foreign policy, which mostly avoids the traditional way of doing foreign policy - with the business end of a rifle. But it does mean that EU passports and EU money are a privilege to be earned, not a right to be claimed.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 09:06:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With core Europe intent on rolling back Schengen and running the Euro like the gold standard, "EU Passports and Money" are not really something to be desired. The population of a peripheral country might be better of if their country joined the European Economic Area (as good as passports, and you keep your own money). On the other hand, joining the EU allows people to be employed in the EU civil service, and allows the politicians to participate in EU policy making. EEA countries are often bothered by the requirement to implement legislation which they have no say in drafting.

Of course, the best of all worlds is where you can be in the EU but fail to honor the promise to join the Euro, like Sweden or the Czech Republic.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 09:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that sounds like an excellent argument for not letting Serbia into the EU at all.

Well it's perfectly OK with me, because I believe that Serbia would benefit the most staying neutral in the middle between EU/USA and Russia and China and others...
I believe EU would also like that ( their capital is already in Serbia and they learned how Serbs can be hard)but I believe USA wouldn't let it happen...that's why we both are to be pushed in to this " marriage" like it or not...

by vbo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 09:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo:
Can anybody tell me in how many EU cities you have this parade?

Main Europride events have taken place in: London Berlin Amsterdam Copenhagen Paris Stockholm Rome Vienna Cologne Manchester Hamburg Madrid Warsaw also non-EU Oslo and Zurich. To come: 2013 Marseille, 2014 Oslo again, 2015 Riga.

There are also lesser national events pretty much everywhere.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 12:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This year in Helsinki, for instance.

The Helsinki Pride festival 2010), an event devoted to celebrating the rights of sexual minorities, culminated in a carnival-like procession through the streets of Helsinki Saturday. Police estimate that about 5,000 people participated in the procession.

The march kicked off at 1.00 pm from the Senate Square in downtown Helsinki and proceeded along Aleksanterinkatu and Mannerheimintie to the Hakasalmi Park.

The parade was slightly marred by a small skirmish, in which bystanders attacked members of the procession with pepper spray. The incident took place at the corner of Aleksanterinkatu and Kluuvinkatu. Police held three men in their thirties in connection with the incident.

The 3 later received suspended prison sentences.

A single man threw eggs at the 2012 paraders, who this year numbered nearly 8.000. The population of Helsinki proper (not the region) is around 600K - so that is a large turnout, vaguely equivalent to a parade of 120.000 in London.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 06:35:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"We are not talking about equal rights , we are talking about parade. This parade is canceled because police refused to get injured again."

In other words we are not talking about the rights of sexual minorities but about the fundamental right to express an opinion.

And the right to express your opinion is certainly an accession criterion.

by IM on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 12:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi DoDo - I know you thought my article a while ago was a bit lacking, so I'm not going to pass judgement about this piece about Hungary.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/10/hungary-being-held-hostage-outdated-tyrant

I'd be interested in what prospects you see in the demonstrations this October... certainly seems to be shaping up to be a Bajnai-Orban electoral decision next time. Currently seems unclear to me what other influence can be wielded on this 'clash of capital' ...

by car05 on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 02:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me start with the IMF bailout. I have a hypothesis that the contradictory communication of the Orbán government (we want it but we don't need and reject it) is not their usual policy mess but an actual rational strategy: the prospect of an IMF bailout will avert a classic market run, while uncertainty about the possibility that Orbán might reject a bailout even in a crisis averts a speculative attack aimed at forcing the government's hands. (I first wrote about this exactly a month ago.)

Either way, the sharp economic collapse expected in some parts didn't come, and I think this is reflected in polls – check the small upticks in the fourth (job rating of the government) and fifth diagram (what direction is the country going in) in Medián's September poll report. If many supporters are content with moderate recession (-0.7% in Q1 and -1.3% in Q2 vs. the year before) and it won't get radically worse, then I don't see Fidesz's support base melting away (as hoped by many in the Green party, LMP).

Then, as things stand, with the record level of people without party preference (i.e. in practice non-voters; 46% in the above poll), the parties of the republican opposition still add up to less than Orbán's Fidesz; and then there is the far-right Jobbik, the Fidesz-biased election system and the voter suppression attempt in the form of the introduction of registration. As much as I dislike Bajnai for his IMF-faithful austerity policies, this makes me less interested in the person of an eventual joint PM candidate (and I don't think either the person of Bajnai or a campaign framing as a decision between him and Orbán could draw many current non-voters).

The republican opposition is as divided as ever. LMP still has these strategists who say hoping to attract non-voters is illusory, but I think their strategy of drawing conservatives disenchanted by Fidesz is just senseless. The Socialists (MSzP) stabilized their support, confirming my view that they won't go away as the only force with a serious grass-roots organization, and that recently leaked strategy document indicates that they still expect a bipartisan structure on the long term. I don't condone Facebook protest organizers Milla for reacting to this as they did, but I think they shouldn't have done it in the call for the protest on 23 October.

Returning to my initial theme, what I miss is a notion that the IMF will have to be confronted but differently than the way Orbán did. (In that leaked MSzP document, there is also talk about focusing the campaign on the concerns of the "little man" in the tradition of former PM Gyula Horn instead of macroeconomic arguments, but from that it is not clear what they would do.) From this follows something which should have been a central point in the rhetoric of the republican opposition: with their austerity-not-to-be-called-austerity and vilification of the poor and needy and the jobless, the Orbán government is giving us an IMF programme without the IMF.

In short, the situation is hopeless :-) Still, at worst, what the next round of protests can achieve is strengthening a sense of defiance in a minority that might at one time organise a majority.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 03:31:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A booklet delivered yesterday appears to be an early indicator of the shape of things to come in the runup to 2014. Titled 'Félidőben' it is unattributed - carries no indication of the publisher. It bears the corporate logo of Budapest and has about 20 sides of colour A5 documenting the (doubtful) successes of the Tarlos mayorality. What is perhaps most noticeable is that it contains direct criticism of the MSZP and previous mayor Gabor Demszky throughout. Obviously it's going to get very nasty if the opposition look anywhere near competing next time.
by car05 on Wed Oct 10th, 2012 at 02:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Times of Malta: EU leaders meeting in Malta call for single European banking supervision system (October 5, 2012)
After the meeting between Dr Gonzi and Mr Hollande, another meeting was held between Dr Gonzi, Mr Hollande, Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy Brey, the Prime Minister of Portugal Pedro Passos Coelho and EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso.

The leaders called for the next meeting of the region's leaders in October to make progress toward setting up a single banking regulator by the end of the year so that it can be running in 2013.

They agreed that the next European Council must pave the way towards the establishment of a single European banking supervision system, to be decided before the end of the year and operational by January.



I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 06:15:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 ECONOMY & FINANCE 


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:58:04 PM EST
France halves growth forecast - ECONOMY - FRANCE 24
France's national statistics institute INSEE on Thursday halved its 2012 growth forecast to 0.2 percent, predicting zero growth in the third and fourth quarters and claiming "The French economy is stuck in neutral."


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Time to be content with treading water while lots of other are drowning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 07:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Eurotunnel to do without French fire brigade - FRANCE - FRANCE 24

Firefighters from the Pas-de-Calais brigade are set to be replaced by private security guards to monitor the Channel tunnel, according to France Info radio station.

The private company operating the cross-Channel service, Eurotunnel, and the French fire service have failed to an agreement to renew their €2,7 million contract to provide primary emergency cover for the tunnel.

Employees from private security firm Onet will take over the Pas-de-Calais firefighters from the end of November. According to the report, Onet is recruiting applicants armed with first aid certificates, "composure", and - "ideally" - some experience as volunteer firefighters. The new security teams will be in charge of "preventing fires" and "monitoring rescue equipments" but not putting fires out. Actual firefighting will continue to be carried out by the French and British fire authorities.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, yea cos it makes so much sense to endanger a multi-billion dollar investment over what is, in context, smallloose change

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 03:43:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Poland trims Russian influence with Qatar gas loan deal | EurActiv

Poland sent a clear message of moving away from its dependence to Russia on Thursday (4 October), when it secured the final investments needed to start construction of its first liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminal, expected to start importing gas from Qatar in 2014.

The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) said it gave a €75-million, 12-year loan to Polish gas grid operator Gaz-System to begin building the terminal. The rest of the financing for the total cost of €660 million will come from the European Commission via grants, European Investment Bank and the company, from its own revenues.

"What this project really represents is a choice for Poland to receive one third of its gas from a country other than Russia for the first time," EBRD Managing Director for Energy and Natural Resources Ricardo Puliti said.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
South Africa mining giant sacks 12,000 strikers - SOUTH AFRICA - FRANCE 24

Tensions between mine owners and workers in South Africa heightened on Friday when 12,000 staff were sacked for taking part in an illegal strike.

The world's biggest platinum producer, Anglo American Platinum, said it had fired the workers after reporting their walkout had cost the company around $82 million in lost output.

..."This country is quite used to large figures like this, even if 12,000 seems shocking by European standards," the Independent's Cape Town correspondent Alex Duval Smith told FRANCE 24. "There are 125,000 people employed in the industry."

"Essentially the mining industry says it is overstaffed, it needs to get rid of people, the strikes are illegal and if they continue we are going to do what we intended to do, which is fire people," Duval Smith added.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:58:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the new normal which is the old normal for South Africa, nothing to see here, move along, says some foreign correspondent (nothing from him on this subject I can find on the Independent site).

Or maybe FRANCE 24 just neglected to quote anyone with a different point of view. FRANCE 24 is such rubbish.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 02:35:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny, that spin didn't even register for me; I saw these two points transpire:
  • the mining company can defy unions and fire 12,000 because of an "oversupply" on the labour market;
  • the mining company is using the strikenon-appearance at discilinary hearings as an excuse for reducing its labour force.

At any rate, here is some background I found for what Alex Duval Smith is quoted with:

Anglo American Platinum sacks 12,000 striking South African miners | World news | The Guardian

Anglo American is understood to be considering closing some of its South African mines as it weighs its future in the country. Credit Suisse analysts suggested last week that the company could shut two or three of its five operating shafts.

...The last mass sackings in the platinum mining sector took place in February, when Impala Platinum dismissed 17,000 workers at its Rustenburg operation after wildcat strikes. It led to an escalation of violence and the company re-employed nearly 5,000 workers. Amplats has not said whether it will consider re-employing any of the 12,000 former workers.

Meanwhile, the unions fight on:

Mine violence moves to Rustenburg's platinum belt | World news | guardian.co.uk

But strike leaders say that Amplats hasn't got a hope in hell of bringing replacement labour into the mines. "Nobody will come and operate these mines. If there any people we feel must go, it is them, not us," said Evans Ramokga, who threatened that new labour would only be hired "over our dead bodies."

This article quotes union representatives at length on the underhanded and violent tactics of mine owners and police.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 03:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe Smith's offhand tone escaped you. I find it borderline sympathetic for the mine bosses.

And why I mention "same as always" in SA, is that in fact these huge mining operations haven't changed at all.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:06:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When I used past tense, I meant that you made me notice the dismissiveness and mining company friendliness, but I was too focused on the other stuff when choosing the story for the Salon.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the point of the Salon is to discuss form as much as content...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 02:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh come on, at least they haven't been shot. One has to see the positive side of it.
by IM on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 12:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 WORLD 


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:58:58 PM EST
UN condemns Syrian attack on Turkey - UNITED NATIONS - FRANCE 24

The U.N. Security Council overcame deep divisions on Thursday to unanimously approve a statement condemning "in the strongest terms" Syria's shelling of a Turkish town that killed five women and children.

Council members managed to bridge differences between the strong statement demanded by the United States and its Western supporters and backed by their NATO ally Turkey, and a weaker text pushed by Russia, Syria's most important ally, after negotiations that began late Wednesday and continued through Thursday.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU urges Turkey to cool down on Syria | EurActiv
Catherine Ashton, the EU foreign policy chief, called on Turkey for restraint after its artillery slammed military targets in Syria in retaliation for a mortar attack that killed five people in the border town of Akçakale.

...Turkey stepped up retaliatory artillery strikes on a Syrian border town yesterday, reportedly killing several Syrian soldiers. Syria apologised for the mortar attack and said it would never happen again.

In Ankara, the Turkish parliament adopted motion clearing the military to use ground troops for cross-border operations into Syria. The opposition had objected to voting such a significant motion in a closed-door session.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reuters: Turkey warns Syria more strikes would be fatal mistake (Oct 6, 2012)
In a belligerent speech to a crowd in Istanbul, Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan warned Syrian President Bashar al-Assad that Turkey would not shy away from war if provoked.

The speech followed a Syrian mortar barrage on a town in southeast Turkey that killed five people on Wednesday.

Turkish artillery bombarded Syrian military targets on Wednesday and Thursday in response, killing several Syrian soldiers, and the Turkish parliament authorised cross-border military action in the event of further aggression.



I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 04:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Given that Syria already shot down a Turkish aircraft last June, I can't say that Erdogan has a lot of scope for moderation right now.

Certainly, the moderation window has been shifted in the direction of military force.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 05:18:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Problem is the rebel groups are aware of that. And have access to heavy weapons.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter
by generic on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 08:20:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
INTERNATIONAL - Russia warns Turkey, Syria over tensions near border
Both Syrian and Turkish authorities "should exercise maximum restraint" since radical members of the Syrian opposition might deliberately provoke cross-border conflicts for their own benefits, Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov said yesterday. The diplomat said Moscow has been worrying about the situation on the Syria-Turkey border. Ankara has repeatedly complained of artillery and gunfire spilling over its border and last week signaled it would take action if there was a repeat of a mortar strike on its territory from inside Syria. Turkey has sent a diplomatic note to Syria over the mortar bomb that hit the southeastern province of Akçakale on Sept. 28.

That was a week before incident.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 08:33:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But then they would say that wouldn't they? Just as Erdogan will blame it on the regime because everything else would discredit his policies.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter
by generic on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 08:56:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spiegel: Syrian War Threatens to Spread to Neighbors
With its actions, Turkey obviously proceeded with caution: It answered the repeated attacks from Syria with a few artillery shots -- not missiles. And the permission for further military action granted to Erdogan by his parliament is intended primarily as an intimidation measure. There is no apparent intent to declare all-out war -- at least for the time being. The United Nations Security Council, meanwhile, has strongly condemned the Syrian attack on Turkish soil and called on both sides to show restraint.

The fact of the matter is that the longer Syrian civil war continues, the more often incidents like that seen earlier this week will occur -- particularly in Turkey and Lebanon. A large part of the border region around Syria has already become a war zone. Previously, the international community had worried that a military intervention could fuel a regional wildfire, but now it is being forced to look on as this increasingly appears to be the reality -- without it ever even having gotten involved.

...

In the western border region, tensions within Turkey are intensifying as well. Ankara is lending massive support to the Syrian rebels and has taken in around 100,000 Syrian refugees, angering the Alawites in the Turkish border province of Hatay. The region was part of Syria up until 1938 and has a similar sectarian diversity. There have been repeated protests by Alawites in Hatay against the Syrian rebels.



I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 05:10:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Born in 1952 I missed out on WWII. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to see WWIII before I check out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 09:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The question is whether you will be in the country that is on the side of the good guys or the bad guys...
by asdf on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 12:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Other than Iceland and CA who are the "good guys"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 03:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The winning side is always the good guys.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 04:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless they're Soviet Russia.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 02:36:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or Vietnam. What you probably meant to say is that the ones who speak English are the good guys.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 03:18:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, what I meant to say is that history is more complex than our favourite slogans make it out to be.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 03:30:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
CA as in Canada? Not so sure they are on the good guys side...mostly a fossil fuel economy and political system these days...
by asdf on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 03:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Islamists protest after King dissolves parliament - JORDAN - FRANCE 24
Thousands of Islamists demonstrated in central Amman to call for reforms on Friday, just hours after King Abdullah II dissolved parliament and called early polls without any major political change.

"We demand constitutional reform before the people revolt. The people want to reform the regime," they chanted in the demonstration held outside Al-Husseini mosque in downtown Amman.

"Democratic electoral law, constitutional changes, parliamentary governments, independent judiciary, constitutional court, effective anti-corruption efforts and preventing security services from interfering in political life," read a large banner carried by protesters spelling out their demands.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Romney admits 47% remark 'completely wrong' - US ELECTIONS 2012 - FRANCE 24

Romney's interview with Fox News' Sean Hannity was the first time he completely disavowed remarks he made at a private fundraiser in May and which have emerged as a major stumbling block in his campaign against Democratic President Barack Obama.

The "47 percent" videotape did not come up in his Wednesday night debate with Obama, although the Obama campaign has used his remarks in a television ad.

Asked what he would have said if the issue had come up in the Denver debate, Romney said he would have said that after thousands of speeches as a presidential candidate, "now and then you're going to say something that doesn't come out right."

"In this case, I said something that was just completely wrong," he said.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, he realises that it was politically damaging, that is entirely different from believing it was wrong.

And it shows that Obama was smart to keep ducking romney on the debate, cos he so much wanted to say that on primetime and ended up having to say it to Hannity on a channel no undecided voter watches.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 03:46:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He did't have to say it to Hannity: He could have waited for a chance in one of the later debates.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 03:49:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Washington Post
Former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum got philosophical on CNN Thursday night when asked about Mitt Romney's pledge to cut off PBS funding.

"I've voted to kill Big Bird in the past," Romney's ex-primary rival said. "I have a record there that I have to disclose. That doesn't mean I don't like Big Bird. You can kill things and still like them, maybe to eat them, I don't know. That's probably that. Can we -- can we go back on that one?"

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 08:56:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Imran Khan sets off on peace march to campaign against drones - Telegraph
Imran Khan led hundreds of cars, buses and trucks out of Pakistan's capital Islamabad on Saturday in a peace convoy to one of the country's militant-infested tribal regions.

He was joined by activists from America, Clive Stafford Smith, of the death penalty campaign group Reprieve, and Lauren Booth, Cherie Blair's half sister, to highlight the plight of hundreds of people killed by CIA drones.

Hundreds more vehicles joined the convoy along the road, ahead of a rally planned in South Waziristan on Sunday.

They must still navigate Taliban threats and fears the Pakistan government may prevent the rally from going ahead.

Mr Khan, who formed a political party 16 years ago after retiring from cricket, has emerged as an outspoken critic of drones.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 11:53:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 LIVING OFF THE PLANET 
 Environment, Energy, Agriculture, Food 


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 01:59:50 PM EST
EU takes final step in adopting Energy Efficiency Directive | EurActiv

EU ministers yesterday (4 October) placed the last piece of the 20-20-20 climate puzzle, agreed in 2007, by throwing their weight behind the EU's Energy Efficiency Directive.

The directive is the last piece of legislation out of a suite of three which came as a result of the March 2007 EU summit, when member states had struck an agreement on a 20% energy efficiency target by 2020, together with a 20% renewable energy target and a 20% CO2 reduction target.

Despite the European Parliament giving an overwhelmingly positive vote on the directive in the plenary on 11 September, EU officials were still not celebrating its adoption until this final Council vote, EurActiv understands.

This is because the 'tough' talks which delayed the legislation have previously been described by key negotiators as the 'most complicated' of the past few years, with tight political battles threatening its adoption several times before the initial agreement in June 2012.

...despite the directive setting only 'indicative' and not binding targets, the investments needed to implement the law average €40 billion to €50 billion.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 02:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'We let them starve' | World news | guardian.co.uk

Jean Ziegler was until recently (2000-2008) the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food, and subsequently, in a similar function, he served on the Advisory Committee to the UN Human Rights Council. He is also a vocal critic of global capitalism's effects on the developing world, especially Africa.

The last few days he has been doing the media circuit promoting his new book, "Mass Destruction: The Geopolitics of Hunger" (the French title) or "We Let Them Starve: The Mass Destruction in The Third World" (the German title). There's no English title available yet.

...>While his fighting spirit, his relentless engagement for justice across the world, and his international standing have earned him respect, he has remained a thorn in the side of Switzerland-based businesses (such as Nestlé) who he has accused of active participation in practices that kept developing countries poor and dependent.

With this in mind, it is then quite understandable that business journalist Philip Löpfe's interview with Ziegler for newsnet, the online presence of the Swiss newspapers Basler Zeitung and the Zürich-based Tagesanzeiger, would be a challenging affair. And yet, the combative and perhaps provocative personality of Ziegler and his engagement with poor countries alone do not fully explain the nature of the questions he faced. Rather, Löpfe's questions seem to reflect the same strained arrogance as those whose profiteering from global misery was usually explained away as natural and which has now, as global neoliberalism struggles and inequalities become more glaring, been opened up to closer scrutiny and contestation.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 02:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ukraine nuclear fuel plant to boost energy security | EurActiv

Russia and Ukraine began yesterday (4 October) the construction on a nuclear fuel plant. Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov said the plant will contribute to the country's energy independence and experts commented that the new facility was good news for East European countries with Russia-built nuclear reactors.

A major producer of uranium, Ukraine has in the past bought processed nuclear fuel from Russia and the United States.

The plant, near the Ukrainian town of Smolino, some 300 kilometres south-east of the capital Kiev, will provide to the country by 2020 with all of its nuclear fuel needs, Azarov said at the ceremony of turning the first sod. Ukraine has 15 nuclear reactors in operation and plans to complete two more, at the Hmelnitski nuclear central, by 2015.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 02:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 LIVING ON THE PLANET 
 Society, Culture, History, Information 


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 02:00:38 PM EST
Israel police kill gunman after deadly shooting at Red Sea resort - ISRAEL - FRANCE 24

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the attacker stole a gun from a hotel security guard and fired a number of shots at the Leonardo Club hotel in the Red Sea resort city, killing one person.

Police anti-terror units stormed the hotel, and the gunman fired back from the hotel kitchen, Rosenfeld said. Police returned fire, killing the attacker, he said.

Dana Zinati, a spokeswoman for the Eilat municipality, told Israel's Channel 2 that the man is an American Jewish man in his 20s who came to Israel on a program that brings American Jews to Israel.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 02:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
French fashion boss 'sorry' over 'no Chinese' gaffe - FRANCE-RACISM - FRANCE 24

A French fashion boss who said his exclusive new Paris hotel "won't be open to Chinese tourists" has apologised for his gaffe after a storm of Internet criticism.

Thierry Gillier, the founder of fashion giant Zadig & Voltaire, told industry journal Women's Wear Daily late last month: "We are going to select guests. It won't be open to Chinese tourists, for example."

And after an avalanche of outraged comments on social media networks, particularly in China, the article has since been ammended, referring instead to "busloads of tourists".

...Gillier said in a statement that he admitted expressing himself in an "inappropriate way to explain that his hotel was not suited to mass tourism".



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 02:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least he didn't call them "Chinks".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 07:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the fashion industry seems stuffed to the gunrails with attitudes from ancient history. Racists & nazis abound and its only when their poisonous attitudes leak out beyond the confines of the underfed that anybody actually says "you can't say that"

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 03:50:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]


I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 08:55:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What does the narrator mean by "What if"? I swear this guy is channeling ME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 09:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's channelling a lot of US right-wing conspiracy rhetoric, too.

Apparently the narrator is Judge Andrew Napolitano.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 09:51:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WOW! A FOX guy I like. Go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 03:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
James Marsh's 'Shadow Dancer' Wins Dinard Prize - The Hollywood Reporter
James Marsh's Shadow Dancer won the Golden Hitchcock Award as this year's Dinard British Film Festival came to a close.

A star-studded jury including Celia Imrie, Stephen Dillane and jury president Patrick Bruel under the watchful eye of this year's 'hommage' recipient, Brit acting legend Tom Courtenay, plumped for Marsh's film starring Clive Owen and Andrea Riseborough.



Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sun Oct 7th, 2012 at 04:18:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 PEOPLE AND KLATSCH 


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 02:01:08 PM EST
Nasri out as Deschamps names France squad - Football - FRANCE 24

France coach Didier Deschamps has overlooked Samir Nasri for the upcoming World Cup qualifier against Spain, even though the Manchester City midfielder is available for selection again after serving a three-match ban.

Nasri was banned for three matches by the French Football Federation for his behavior at the European Championship, where he aimed an expletive-laced tirade at a journalist after the quarterfinal loss to Spain.

"I didn't think it was the right time to call him back," Deschamps said. "I prefer to wait a while."

...Deschamps also gave Arsene Wenger a stern reminder that he was the only France coach after the Arsenal manager said Abou Diaby should not have been picked for previous international matches.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Oct 5th, 2012 at 02:01:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't help that Nasri has been out of form lately.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 03:50:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Woz keeps them guessing ...

Apple iOS platform should be more open, says Wozniak - uSwitch.com

The famously loose-lipped Wozniak issued his call for a more free and easy approach to iOS and applications for iPhones and iPads at a conference in sunny Brighton.

While praising current-gen iKit as "unbelievable", the bearded wonder mooted that he feels that "Apple could be more open and not lose sales".

Wozniak, who co-founded Apple with Steve Jobs back in 1976 but whose role at the tech giant is now ceremonial, also went on to disclose that he would consider a return to a full time position at Cupertino if the call came from upstairs.

Talk about coming full circle. OTOH

"Would consider a return to a full time position (at Apple) ..." is somewhat surprising, since just recently it was reported that (he had said) he planned to ditch his long-time digs in Los Gatos and move to Australia where he hoped to gain citizenship. Who knows?

by sgr2 on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 at 12:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Margaret and Helen

Well Margaret, once again I am going to say what the media won't. Mitt Romney is a lying sack of shit and he wouldn't know a middle class tax cut if it bit him in the middle of his gold plated ass. Evidently the media seems to think that the person who slings the bullshit the farthest wins the debate. Well if that ain't the damnest thing.

Who exactly was that man debating the President last night? Clearly somebody finally decided to shake the Etch A Sketch and now Romney is against lowering taxes for the wealthy. He's also pro choice and for entitlement programs. But what the hell he has against Big Bird is beyond me.

If lying whenever your mouth moves is what they mean by style points then, yes, I would definitely have to say that Romney won the debate. He had to temporarily become a Democrat to do it, but yes he won. And it was clear that even the President didn't see that one coming.



It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:03:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Catholic theologian preaches revolution to end church's 'authoritarian' rule | World news | guardian.co.uk

Indeed the "modest'' and prudent "bicycle-rider'' image that pope-to-be, now 85, fostered for years has all but evaporated since his 2005 inauguration, according to Küng.

"He has developed a peculiar pomposity that doesn't fit the man I and others knew, who once walked around in a Basque-style cap and was relatively modest. Now he's frequently to be seen wrapped in golden splendour and swank. By his own volition he wears the crown of a 19th-century pope, and has even had the garments of the Medici pope Leo X remade for him."

That "pomposity", he said, manifested itself most fully in the regular audiences who gather on St Peter's Square in Rome. "What happens has Potemkin village dimensions," he said. "Fanatical people go there to celebrate the pope, and tell him how wonderful he is, while meanwhile at home their own parishes are in a lamentable state, with a lack of priests, a far higher number than ever before of people who are leaving than are being baptised and now Vatileaks, which indicates just what a poor state the Vatican administration is in," he said, referring to the scandal over leaked documents uncovering power struggles within the Vatican which has seen the pope's former butler appear in court.



It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Several other excerpts from the article almost make you sympathize with the Pope:
"The unconditional obedience demanded of bishops who swear their allegiance to the pope when they make their holy oath is almost as extreme as that of the German generals who were forced to swear an oath of allegiance to Hitler," he said.

[...]

Kung has travelled widely in his life, befriending everyone from Iranian leaders to John F. Kennedy, and Tony Blair with whom he forged close links a decade ago, becoming something of a spiritual guru for the then British prime minister ahead of his decision to convert to Catholicism.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He does say he thought Blair's conversion was inadvisable.

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 07:18:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Blair is lucky Catholicism has a way of dealing with those pre-existing conditions.


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 11:45:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
lol

Concerns that Blair's first Catholic confession `could be a biggie' | NewsBiscuit

`Normally a few Hail Marys and a round or two of the rosary would be suitable penance, but this guy is going to have a bit of a back-log to work through.'

Priests are not just concerned about the number of sins to be confessed, but the extended justifications that will follow each one, along with shrugs, mock-humble platitudes and comments such as `Look, I mean, you know, yer does what yer does with the evidence you have before you...'

It is the custom in the Roman Catholic church for the `Sacrament of Reconciliation' to be given taken anonymously, behind a screen designed to protect the confessor's identity. However with admissions such as `Forgive me father, I have committed the sin of taking the country to war on the basis of non-existent secret intelligence', the anonymity of the sinner may be harder to guarantee in this case.

Plans are afoot to employ a team of priests to work in eight hour slots, rotating on shift basis, until all the former Premier's sins have been absolved at some point in July. The tag-team of priests and bishops will be dividing the various subject areas between them. `Father O'Duffy is taking Cash For Honours, the Hinjudas and the Ecclestone affair' said the Catholic Archbishop of Liverpool. `I'm taking the `un-truths' about WMD, the Hutton Enquiry, and all that, while Cormac's got the breaking of tenth commandment `Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's control of domestic expenditure.'



It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2012 at 04:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a lack of priests

Could be the ultimate undoing of the Catholic Church in Europe....

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 05:27:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
many are praying for that ;)

unless the few good apples read this guy and upturn the cart!

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 11:24:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Went looking for a graph of the number of RC priests in the US and Google gave me:

Not quite sure what measles has to do with the number of priests in the US however if Google says so, there must be a connection.

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Mon Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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