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Tuesday Open Thread

by Nomad Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 11:40:32 AM EST

Chat away


Display:
I'll be doing a full days brewing tomorrow. Should be fun and will hopefully be a good beer.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 11:49:44 AM EST
I was on the New Glarus brewery tour in Wisconsin recently, and one thing they had was a small pot (crucible? vessel? whatever it's called) that is used by the brewmaster to try out new recipes. It makes something like 20 gallons or maybe 100 liters in a batch. "Pilot brewery" seems to be the official terminology...

There is more stainless steel piping in this plant than there are in a nuclear power plant. Some pipe salesman made a ton of money on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Glarus_Brewing_Company

by asdf on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Haha, 30 liters, it says so on the sign...
by asdf on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Put into more familiar measurements, that's 1689.36 Imperial tablespoons or 1830.71 cubic inches.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:15:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
with a tablespoon.

A litre I can relate to.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 07:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, 30 liters, that sounds like a nice little starter plant.

wonder how much they cost ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Check out the web site for the brewery and then go into a corner sobbing. The whole thing was bought at scrap price.

Of course they have worked their tails off and leveraged the fad for small breweries and somehow convinced people that beer that is actually pretty lousy tasting is good because it's a "craft" product. I'll take an industrial-grade Guinness or Bass or even Coors over most of these specialist products. Not cultured or sophisticated enough, I guess...

by asdf on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 12:01:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hee, tell me about it. I have a whole essay prepared about "craft" beer. Hint : Not in favour

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 02:45:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, no I was just lusting after that pilot plant. Not the whole brewery. But picking up a brewery on the cheap isn't unknown, even here in the UK. It's just not something that happens much anymore.

In the 60s dring the brewery consolidations, run down breweries were being bought having never been re-valued since WWI !!! The purchasers were making vast profits on scrap value

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 02:50:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
bloomin' cold today. I don't think it's got above zero all day.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 11:50:23 AM EST
Still, on friday it's gonna leap up 4 whole degrees

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 11:51:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not supposed to get that toasty here until Sunday.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 12:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was -8 C here yesterday morning. Sunny and around 5 C now...
by asdf on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's -7° here now, I've just looked. That means probably -10 or worse in the morning. Hibernation sounds tempting.
by Katrin on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 05:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Forecast for today is -4 for a high and -6 for a low, but for tomorrow (Thursday) it's -4 and -14. Brrrrrrr.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 11:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
+-2, either side of zero here today, and people talk like it's the apocalypse.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 07:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
coldest temperature I ever experienced was -44 with wind chill it was -60  

and at -40 the Fahrenheit and Celsius scales meet.  I bet Sven knows that.

by stevesim on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 02:33:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are things that I know that I don't want to know, and things that I don't want to know that I don't want to know, but then there are things that I guess.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 02:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I sure hope this video embed works. I'm really looking forward to the documentary.  

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 12:53:32 PM EST

Another example of awesome people - and rather shaming - the stuff we throw away - and, as it says, one shouldn't throw people away. But another side of this human ingenuity was shown in a doc on champagne production the other day; to save one euro a bottle one guy had introduced ingenious new equipment, which did almost everything, including putting the bottles into boxes. So he had very few people working for him - more thrown away.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 03:16:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know if you have had the same experience, but I am so sick and tired of running into right wing assholes online.  You join an online community, let's say for expats or for career networking, and people start a discussion, let's say about finding a doctor.
e
Next thing you know, people are blaming sick people for not presenting themselves to doctors properly, instead of blaming the doctor (authority figure) for being an ass.

Or people complaining that their sick mother is whingeing (?) by asking them for another cup of tea.

Or the other thing -  as one gets older, the people you remember as being good people turning into right wing assholes complaining about the war on Christmas or the small percentage of GDP the country gives in food aid to the starving.  Come on, is there no rationality left in them!!!

Too many right wingers on this planet!

by stevesim on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 02:39:09 PM EST
This is the only forum I'm really present in. I'm on FB and there are a couple of friends of friends I occasionally run into who are prone to regurgitating tabloid talking points but by and large I live in a liberal bubble online. (too much of it irl)

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 02:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that's too much right wing drivel irl

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 02:54:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you're lucky.   I was on Internations, a networking site for yuppies, and about 95% of them are right wingers.

I kind of expected that, but then I find that the expats sites are the same, although there are people from all over the world, and from all kinds of professions.  The Brits and Americans tend to be the worse though.

It makes me so depressed about the world when people are complaining about giving a few million to starving people though.  I mean, really! Is there no shred of humanity left in those people?  

by stevesim on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 03:13:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're not being entirely rational when you say things like:

"Is there no shred of humanity left in those people?"

It's not a good idea to talk of "those people" as less than human. It's better to think that they're human too and usually just victims of massive right-wing propaganda and that they might well change their views when presented with the facts. Thus lots of Americans seem to believe that foreign aid is far larger than it is in reality. Maybe ask them what they think it is as a percentage of the federal budget, then present them with the facts, from US mainstream media:

In a November World Public Opinion poll, the average American believed that a whopping 25 percent of the federal budget goes to foreign aid. The average respondent also thought that the appropriate level of foreign aid would be about 10 percent of the budget -- 10 times the current level.

Compared with our military and entitlement budgets, this is loose change. Since the 1970s, aid spending has hovered around 1 percent of the federal budget.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-04-28/opinions/35231618_1_foreign-aid-foreign-assistance-act -aid-programs

Then there's the fact that for every dollar that goes to developing nations, ten dollars comes back (from TV doc the other day).

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 03:51:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nice try, but I already used that argument with a friend, who is still not persuaded.  I just think that if you are going to complain about government waste, there are some really big or more obvious targets than food aid to starving people.  How people can complain about that is beyond me, is all.
by stevesim on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I didn't say it would work like magic with everybody - but if they'd given the 25% aid argument, they would have to admit that their criticism wasn't based on reality and they might look into it and start being a bit more sceptical. Meanwhile the Right-wing keep up their propaganda:


Foreign aid has few domestic allies. Aid programs weathered steep cuts in the recent budget deal in Congress, and a plan from Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) would slash spending on international affairs and foreign assistance by an eye-popping 44 percent by 2016. Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) has called for the abolishment of aid programs

ibid

I still prefer the path of attempted enlightenment rather than dismissive outrage.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Try the enlightenment but it seldom works as I have found out.

And, it's not outrage as much as incredulity.

by stevesim on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:41:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"seldom" ? You mentioned one try with a basic response to a foreign aid sceptic, this is hardly a persistent effort of enlightenment.

I don't see any rational reason even for "incredulity" given the amount of Right-wing propaganda Americans are subjected to - leading many of those who complain about foreign aid apparently believing it's 25% of the federal budget, rather than 1%. Significantly those who thought it was 25% thought 10% would be reasonable - ten times the actual level - so they're not completely lacking in humanity.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 05:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At some point, in an age of near-infinite information, people have to get off their lazy asses and do some reading.  More likely, they know the truth but find it convenient to argue the other way in service to their ideal of Randian horseshit.  And that makes them scum.

(Not that any of these fucking idiots have a clue who Rand is nine times out of ten.)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 07:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the point of those networking sites?  I have never understood at all.

From personal observation, most expats are bitter right-wingers, so sadly the network is just reflecting the community.

by Zwackus on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 07:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Networking, hobnobbing, schmoozing...

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 07:47:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
most expats are bitter right-wingers

Does one cause the other and, if so, which?

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 07:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's an effect of the nature of most expats - a lot of them are expats thanks to overseas deployments from big corporations.  Big corporate types tend to be more conservative.

In Japan, there is an absolutely huge, and nearly unbridgeable, gulf between the Tokyo expat community and the everywhere else gaijin community.  The Tokyo types are rich, and live in a bubble.  The gaijin are poor, and adapt to Japan or leave.

by Zwackus on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 08:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with InterNations is that they bill themselves as a social network "for global minds", and they appear to want to be geared to an internationally minded, internationally mobile set, but in reality they're full of expats who, while internationally mobile, are narrow-minded.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 03:38:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you nailed it.
by stevesim on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 04:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No he didn't, he just agreed with your own prejudice.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 06:48:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you or have you been on InterNations?

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 06:50:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What evidence is this based on ?  I joined internations because social life is a bit limited here in Nice, it's far easier for ex-pats -  of all mind-sets - in Paris, where there are things like a cafe-philo in English held in Cafe Flore (where Sartre used to hang out), or photography meet-ups with 50 people.

At the last Internations social  I went to here I met an American woman who doesn't exactly fit the stereotype you present; in fact she was president of the local group of Democrats abroad and I ended up defending Obama against her left-wing critique  ! :-)

Also at that meeting was a NZ ex-pat, who is a bit right-wing, used to work (very successfully) for large corporations, but who loves history and is very open to argument. He's also a keen photographer and we were talking to a Scottish guy now living in Monaco who's also a keen photographer and has his own online business but wasn't very political, just a nice guy. Also there was a Brit ex-pat, ex-dancer with Royal ballet, who recently put up on FB a poster about the danger of climate change - he's neither "bitter" nor right-wing.

At the previous Internations meeting I chatted to an American guy based in Nice working for a US company who's very appreciative of the French system - he was unemployed in the US fo a year with a one-year old daughter and no medical coverage. He travels Europe a lot and is also very keen on history.

In a similar group, Meet-up, some time ago I did meet a very right-wing American (from S Africa) - we had some serious arguments. But his experience living in France clearly gradually changed his attitude - especially when he broke his leg skiing and got very good treatment.

This is a pretty random sampling and clearly I don't just mix with the left-wingers. So avoid the sweeping stereotypes - we object when the Right stereotype Lefties.


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 07:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's based on my own experience. I stopped being active in it years ago, though.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 08:19:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a rather limited data-set for a generalisation like this about an international group:  "in reality they're full of expats who, while internationally mobile, are narrow-minded."

Further reality from my limited, but very different experience here in Nice:

There is a right-wing Scottish woman, but she is willing to argue and a very nice person. On the hand a friend of hers, an Irish woman, is quite liberal, teaches English and does decorative art, while friend is a woman is from Iceland who teaches yoga.

One of the local organisers is not only very attractive and a talented jazz-singer, she's also a medical doctor, and, while I haven't spoken to her, I have the feeling she's not right-wing:

a-internat-ev-singer-00403

Even if she was I could be persuaded to ignore that for an evening - to listen to her singing of course :-)

Also there was this jolly English chap, and Stephana, a talented garden designer from Romania:

a-internat-ev-stefana-text-00384

They too don't fit into the stereotype and it would have been silly to miss such a good evening at this Riviera pool party where we met a nice French woman and her Irish husband:

a-internat-ev-life-text-00377

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 12:31:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh, you can chat with such people and maybe have a political discussion and a few laughs, but scratch a little, and their authoritarianism comes out.  I don't remember so many professionals in my country of origin as being so right wing.

Mig is right.

by stevesim on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 02:45:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You really are bigoted aren't you, I've known these people for a while, I'm left-wing and prone to argue. I've said that a few are right-wing, but not as rigid in their attitudes as you, and some, like the American woman president of the local Democrats abroad, are left-wing. Try to avoid stupid stereotyping.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 03:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, not bigoted.  Just disappointed.
by stevesim on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 03:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, bigoted. Mig gave no actual examples and admits he's talking about some years ago - I  give recent examples of the diversity of such a group, but you prefer to believe Mig because it fits your prejudice about entire groups, like internations, about which you have little if any experience.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 03:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
how much experience do I have with Internations?  Do you even know?  I think you are jumping to conclusions.
by stevesim on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 03:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, it's bit late in a discussion about Internations, but tell us about your actual experience, if you have any, and not just about a few who "disappointed" you.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 03:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My feelings about the Internations people I have met are not very positive.  A lot of gold diggers and overly ambitious people without the associated talent.  

I wouldn't mind a social network for intelligent, left wing people.  Anyone know of such a creature?

by stevesim on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 03:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As I expected, no actual examples, do you really have ANY, you know, a real person, a real conversation, instead just a generalised impression, confirming an obvious prejudice. I'm an intelligent, left-wing person and I'd rather have conversations with the actual people I described than with someone who dismisses whole groups on an international scale. Intelligent left-wingers tend to avoid stereotypes - we know where it leads and whose purpose it tends to serve - those who divide and rule. There are real enemies out there and they are not ordinary people who've been misled by right-wing propaganda.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 04:12:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if you have permission from these people to take and use their pictures and post them on the internet that way.

I am a reasonably attractive person so I don't need to meet people through websites -  I do fine in real life.  So I am not looking at these expats as potential partners.

I like  to exchange ideas and find that sometimes the people I mix with are too homogeneous but I don't like the greed (or if you prefer right wing thinking) I encountered when attending these Internations and other expat functions.

I am not going to go into further detail because I do not want to share more details about my personal life on the Internet.  Unlike you.

by stevesim on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 05:00:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh poor you, no arguments, so let's try ad hominem and supposed breaches of privacy.

In fact I usually go to these things with my partner, who is more than "reasonably attractive" - so I'm not looking for "potential partners" either. But I'm obviously more open to discussion with a variety of people than you and less likely to dismiss people because I don't agree with their political views, though I'll do that quite strongly, to my partner's dismay sometimes :-).

I'm sure the singer has no objection to me sharing a nice photo of her performing. A photographer friend was also taking lots of pics of her and of others there, he's another interesting, open-minded member of Internations by the way. Lots of people take photos of the people at these events and put them up on the Internations site and probably some on FB. I'm sure the couple wouldn't mind this pic of them with jokey caption in fact saying what a good party they were at. The chances of anyone here recognising them must be extremely remote anyway.

Ah how convenient, your discretion about your personal life saves you from the trouble of talking about real examples. Of course, the descriptions I gave of these real but unnamed people are not terribly revealing about my personal life - but any excuse when you don't have arguments huh ?

Back to the point - these not very revealing details about real people, from pretty random meetings, show that in at least one Internations group, when you actually get down to facts, there is quite a diversity of attitudes and political views and there's no reason to suppose that the Nice/Monaco/Cannes group has a particularly liberal membership.

But clearly you prefer to stick to your stereotype - I think it's your loss. Were you actually open to evidence you might have reacted by saying "Maybe I was unlucky with the meetings  I've had (such as they've been) and maybe I should give it more of a chance" - you might actually meet some interesting people, even if you disagreed about about some important things.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 05:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will quote another expat at one of these forums:

 No wonder Swiss folks don't like foreigners
Just the topics from last few days really got me wondering about the picture some of us foreigners leave here in Switzerland and how I understand the Swiss are so distant when it comes to foreigners.

First, a guy gets a loaner car for free and than wants the garage to pay for his trips, 500km everybody.

Second, another guy openly admits that he screw over the Swiss Health Insurance system for 1000s of CHF for lying on his arrival date and living here for 3 months without insurance... He admits its illegal, but it's no big deal for him.

Third one tries to shift vouchers at full price where you can buy the same for 3% off at any Coop store and much less on the private market.

And don't even let me start on people trying to shift their overpriced cars here and who get mad when they receive an offer HIGHER than any dealer in Switzerland would offer - they still are mad because it is not the price from autoscout

Who knows what other ways foreigners do here to cheat off the system?

I would imagine that was the way to go back in your home country (just like mine) but avoiding and doing all the loop-holes or illegal things that may not get you caught here, don't you think if everybody else was doing it like this it would make Switzerland just like your own country (for which, I guess doesn't have as good living standard as Switzerland, otherwise what the hell are you doing here)

We live in the best country in central Europe and probably beyond and you still do cheap bastard scams like back home, ffs, what do you want, Switzerland to turn into France?!

by stevesim on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 01:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"One of these forums":

No wonder Swiss folks don't like foreigners - English Forum Switzerland

First, a guy gets a loaner car for free and than wants the garage to pay for his trips, 500km everybody.

From "English Forum Switzerland in association with The Local".

And it's a post from this afternoon, so presumably not one of the exchanges on Internations you were mentioning?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 03:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Internations and other ex-pat forums populated by yuppies.  

Just using a short example of what I mean.

And I doubt that anyone here falls into the right wing ex-pat yuppie category.

by stevesim on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 03:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pathetic, you really are scratching around, this "example" might reinforce the prejudice of someone like you, but of course it proves nothing. So three expats in Switzerland have been behaving badly (allegedly) - well, well, what a surprise ! I wonder how many thousand ex-pats there are in Switzerland. But storie like this would reinforce the prejudices of those Swiss, often right-wing, who dislike "foreigners".

It's the kind of prejudice left-wing people try to fight when the same prejudices are stirred up in many countries by the Right, who also use alleged  "examples" - like Copé in France with his story of of kids prevented from eating their pain au chocolat by Muslim youths.

Your sneering dismissal of Internations as "full of right wing yuppies", despite my direct evidence to the contrary, based on nothing better than "examples" like this - not from Ineternations -  makes you no better than right-wingers full of prejudice about foreigners.

You should stick to engineering, you don't have a clue about reasoned discussion.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 06:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't you say you were based in Strasbourg anyway?

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 06:28:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm getting a little bruised here, myself, Ted. Like you, my experience with ex-pats has been pretty decent, meeting more who are like me than otherwise, who left America because they find Europe more civilized and progressive. Of course, I don't put people who are working here for awhile and who will eventually return to the USA (or country of origin) in the category of ex-pats. I think of them as TempEuros. In my mind, ex-pats are people who have parted with their country the same way that "ex's" have parted with their spouses.

As a confirmed left-winger, I sure don't want anyone thinking that my being an ex-pat makes me anything other than that.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 10:30:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
an expat. I'm an immigrant. (perhaps the "expat" label is a class marker? That would make me a traitor to my class...)

I've never sought out expats to mix with in France. I haven't consciously shied away from them either, I've just never felt the need.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 11:04:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been ex so long it feels like pat to me.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 11:08:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have the ex down pat.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 11:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Though you could always pat down the ex.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 11:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Like a friend said, don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 11:30:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have generally avoided the Brit community in Finland - though the amateur drama group, the Finn-Brit players, were useful in supplying English-speaking actors for TV commercials in the Eighties. And I still meet a couple of them when our paths happen to cross in voiceover studios.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 11:43:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Expats are also immigrants, it's not a "class-marker" you'd find British builders in France more likely to call themselves expats than immigrants I'm willing to bet.

You are lucky that your French is so good, mine's OK, and I even manage a weekly chat about politics and philosophy with my ex philosophy teacher neighbour. But a great many of us immigrants welcome the chance to also talk to others in our native language with shared cultural backgrounds. Internations provides opportunities for that as well as for meeting people from other countries but who also speak English. Yet another Internations member I've met is a young woman from Romania, who speaks French and English well, shares my interest in photography and does garden design. And yet again she doesn't fit the sneering stereotype "right-wing yuppie".

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 06:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted Welch:
you'd find British builders in France more likely to call themselves expats than immigrants I'm willing to bet

The key word here is "British". ;)

Once, at a hotel in Normandy, I happened to address a question to a fellow-guest in French. The guy replies : "I'm sorry, I'm English".

Not wishing to stereotype or anything, but ... what a normal non-French speaker would say is "I'm sorry, I don't speak French".

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Dec 14th, 2012 at 11:59:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He thought you'd understand his British brevity :-)  There was the implied "And everybody knows the English are crap at languages." :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Dec 14th, 2012 at 02:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it's not the expats, it's the expats at these forums (fora?)
by stevesim on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 01:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

According to your mere prejudice about them, so far based on nothing  more than vague general claims, and a refusal to acknowledge direct evidence about such a forum as clearly indicating considerable diversity.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 06:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think this is going anywhere. You clearly have had different experiences of a community. I don't think there is any kind of evidence either of you can give to invalidate the others experience, and short of an academic study having been performed on that community I don't think there is any kind of proof that can be offered to the general public to prove eiter experience right or wrong.

So my advice is to note that you have had different experiences and let it go.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Dec 14th, 2012 at 01:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well you're right in that he seems fixed in his prejudiced opinion. But it's not just a matter of different personal experience. Had he just said that his experience had been rather negative that would be OK, though his avoidance of even the barest details of what kind of thing he'd actually experienced  makes such experience suspect.

What I'm clearly objecting to is him going beyond his own experience and continuing to generalise, not only about Internations (a very large organisation), but also any similar groups as full of "right-wing yuppies". My own actual experience of a large Internations group is relevant evidence against such an absurdly sweeping generaisation, but, of course, not against his personal experience - if any.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Dec 14th, 2012 at 02:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

See reply to Migeru below.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 07:16:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 In fact just above :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 07:17:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's tough out there at the moment.

I had a weird experience recently where someone I interactive with in a particular online setting who is quite enlightened about all sorts of business matters turns out to be utterly convinced that government debt is the most important thing and austerity the only way forward.

So I've kind of sworn off a lot of online discussion for now.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 03:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Propaganda.  It works.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:06:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Goerring had it right;-

Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY.

all we're seeing these days are just riffs off that same old song

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unlearning economics: Whichever Way You Paint It, The Supply Curve Is Flat
... The proposition that demand determines outputs and supply determines price is logically, intuitively and empirically reasonable in any time period and for most industries. Why can't economists just tilt their supply curve 45 degrees to the right?

Well, at this point a few things become apparent. The theory of the firm becomes indeterminant: one of economist's beloved negative feedback loops that allows the economy to self-equilibrate is gone, as firm size is not limited by production costs. Hence, the marginal theory of the firm goes from explaining everything - from firm size to income distribution - to explaining very little. This also makes explicit the idea that output in the economy is driven by demand, both in the short and long run, which contradicts conventional macro theory, where demand only matters because prices are sticky.

Overall, a flat supply curve turns the conventional story told in neoclassical economics, where the economy is self-equilibrating, bar a few frictions, to one where many key variables - wages, output, firm size - go from being at the equilibrium or `natural' level, into one where they are largely arbitrary. It's easy to see why economists would resist this.



I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:49:12 PM EST
This is not news to many perhaps, but it is so so important. Because the reality is that the economy doesn't self-equilibrate.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 05:01:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Business Insider: Goldman's Top Economist Explains The World's Most Important Chart, And His Big Call For The US Economy (December 10, 2012)
I've long been fascinated with looking at private sector financial balances in particular. There was an economics professor at Cambridge University called Wynne Godley who passed away a couple of years ago, who basically used this type of framework to look at business cycles in the U.K. and also in the U.S. for many, many years, so we just started reading some of his material in the late 1990s, and I found it to be a pretty useful way of thinking about the world.

It's usually not something that gives you the secret sauce at getting it all right, because there are a lot of uncertain inputs that go into this analytical framework, but I do think it's a reasonable organizing framework for thinking about the short to medium term ups and downs of the business cycle.

Basically, in order to have above-trend growth - a cyclically strong economy - you need to have some sector that wants to reduce its financial surplus or run a larger deficit in order to provide that sort of cyclical boost, most of the time.



I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 04:54:26 PM EST
So even the vampire squid is reading Godley...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 05:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
German economists with a clue work for Goldman Sachs...

No wonder GS is doing better than the EU.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 05:04:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
@MigeruBlogger
Migeru Shimbun is out! http://paper.li/MigeruBlogger/1351816577 ... ▸ Top stories today via @MigeruBlogger @YoSisanidaduniv @economiasol


I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 05:05:36 PM EST
ESM prints bonds for Spanish bank recap
The bonds, which include two T-bills and three floating-rate notes with maturities ranging between two months and three years, will be transferred to Spain's Fund for Orderly Bank Restructuring (FROB) in the coming days.

The FROB will use €37bn for the recapitalisation of BFA-Bankia, Catalunya-Caixa, NCG Banco and Banco de Valencia - categorised as Group One banks - and the remaining €2.5bn to capitalise SAREB, the Asset Management Company (AMC).

ESM stated the bonds were not funded via the capital markets.

"We call this a payment in kind. The banks can post these bonds as collateral to the ECB and receive cash," said a eurozone official close to the discussions.

So debt monetization is okay, only so long as it involves private banks.

The EU elite is not clueless, it is evil.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 05:29:45 PM EST
I want to know when they are going to quit dicking around and we'll be able to get residency status for buying a residence.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 05:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But we've known that for a while.  None of this is going to change until the EU/German elite understands that they're horrible people who believe in magic.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 08:12:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Involves throwing ring into fire at Cracks of Doom.

Get popcorn.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2012 at 02:04:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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