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Tuesday Open Thread

by afew Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 11:24:58 AM EST

Here comes the...


Display:
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 11:25:28 AM EST
Well I can't argue with that.
And I can't argue with them.

Though I suspect it's pronounced "dem", as in "Van Morrison and them".

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not so much a cover of Them's best song, more a violent assault on its very essense



keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What was that title again? Here comes the... fight?

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 10:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This program might work for you.

I think you should be able to do most exercises. You do not have to sit cross-legged, just stretch your legs in front of you and leave out the exercise where you have to kneel. Use plenty of pillows and blankets to support your body in the postures and try to relax as much as you can. And just accept that your body might not move as easily into these postures as the model, do them as best as you can - they will still work.

If you have questions let me know, though I don't know yet when I will be back home.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 11:46:07 AM EST
thank you. I shall watch it later and see.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, having been told I could bring no more beer into the house till I'd drunk some of that which had been accumulating, I went to local brewery where I worked and was given a couple of cases and a minipin.

So I shall be hiding those in the next couple of days.

And also bought a load of wildbird seed cos the blighters are scoffing it like there's no tomorrow, which may be true on Friday

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:05:57 PM EST
So your problem is that you're not drinking enough beer. Or more precisely : that your parents consider you're not drinking enough beer.

You have my profound sympathy.

Do you have correct storage for it? Until recently I was drinking wine like there was no tomorrow, for want of a place to keep it (I'm still in mourning for my centuries-old arched stone wine cellar, a closet doesn't cut it). Now we've bought a wine fridge, and I can calm down and accumulate.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some idea, getting a wine fridge just before the end of the world.

<realizes>oh shit, I've got about five dozen bottles to put away before Friday</realizes>

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I considered borrowing lots of money and doing a world tour, in the couple of months before they started up the Large Hadron Collider.

In retrospect, I'm quite glad I didn't.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
HomeDepot in Alamogordo had a 54 bottle wine cooler on sale for $125 or €95.  If you want I'll call down and put in on hold until you can swing by and pick it up.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I might be able to make it on Friday, it may be Swing Low Sweet Chariot, who knows?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, sort of. It's more a case of buying too much. I rarely drink bottled beer in the summer/autumn as there as so many beer festivals to visit. So, what I did have has accumulated, then working at the breweries meant that started getting freebies faster than I could drink them. So, the little storage area I have been allocated in the storeroom has gotten a bit full and overflowed into other areas that my mother declares are hers. Not by much, but warning shots have been fired and I get no second chances.

So I guess I'll just have to be the town drunk for a couple of weeks

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
have a party/beer tasting.
by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know anyone around here. Plus, parties at home are what teenagers do when they hate their parents. I'm a bit beyond that

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 01:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Really?  wow, we do come from different cultures.
by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 01:27:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so you think the birds know it's the end of the world?
by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With this news I'm so angry I could spit blood.  Obama, that worthless piece of shit, has gutted everything the Democratic Party has stood for since FDR.  

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:45:35 PM EST
looks like we both read the news.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More anger... but not Krugman, just hand-wringing.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But just what are your arguments against what Krugman says, e.g.:

But is this rumored deal better than no deal? I'm on the edge. It's not clear that going over the cliff would yield something better; on the other hand, those benefit cuts are really bad, and you hate to see a Democratic president lending his name to something like that. There is a case for refusing to make this deal, and hoping for a popular backlash against the GOP that transforms the whole debate; but there's also an argument that this might not work.

I want to see more -- and also want to see whether the Republican crazies scuttle the whole thing before it even gets off the ground. If they don't, there will be some serious agonizing for progressives, yours truly included.



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:41:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then again, there's a track record here

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:45:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see what "arguments" need presenting, Krugman isn't presenting anything much beyond hand-wringing.

Ted Welch:

you hate to see a Democratic president lending his name to something like that

is hardly a firm statement of alarm or opposition. "Serious agonizing" is almost acceptance in advance.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:55:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And it it obvious that Krugman has never tried to live on even $3,000/month, which is about the most that most two income families can expect from social security were they retiring today. But we have neighbors who have a very nice house, a 1988 Toyota Camry and an older Toyota 4WD pickup and manage to get by on less than $1,000/month. Fortunately, they still have some of the Wallmart stock they bought with his early retirement buy out about 15 years ago and the have a very well to do contractor son who will make sure nothing very bad ever happens. He does as much as their pride will allow. But there are many more that try to live on $1,000/month and still pay rent, even if it is $100 or $200/month on a run down trailer in a run down trailer park, or some such - hoping do dodge straight line winds, let alone a tornado.

Neither Krugman nor Obama really grasp what these 'concessions' mean to those who will be living with them. Hell, they have already defined out of the CPI energy and food inflation - as if that has never occurred. But 'grasp' is too generous. Have a clue is more like it. Abstractions too remote for the posh to grasp.

Obama worships wealth and the wealthy too much to really fight the wealthy. He should watch the Sean Penn movie version of All The King's Men. We need another Huey Long. Nail their asses to the side of the barn! Nail 'em up!

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 02:38:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what can you do ? He's always wanted to be a bipartizan guy, and if that means giving the farm away for a packet of dead beans, he's gonna do it. Cos that's a deal

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing.  There's nothing I can do.  The only hope is the GOP House won't take the deal.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:58:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama can then offer them more.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is the theory that Obama is bluffing and that he reckons with the fanaticism of the House GOP.

But then a bluff doesn't seems like Obama.

I don't understand this either.

That said, as in the last negotiation, the sheer idiocy of a good part of the House GOP could save the democrats.

by IM on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 06:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is just simplistic ad hominem; you'd like him to be more radical ,instead of analysing the context, as, for example, Chomsky would, you just turn it into a question of character, in line with the usual, simplistic, media approach.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You'll see a slightly longer analysis down below.

Does chomsky post here ? I don't remember seeing him. Nor do I remember anyone linking to anything he wrote on current affairs. So I guess he's just another guy I've never read like Marx or any of his brothers

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well maybe you should read some Chomsky, you might learn something. I wasn't aware that all references here were supposed to be only to other eurotribbers.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:11:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
given that your only contributions seem to be worrying about my commenting etiquette and name-dropping chomsky, I think Ill give it a miss.

I don't read Ayn rand cos only pricks read it. and you read chomsky

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:14:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe you should look at the actual record, e.g. yesterday commenting on Picasso and philosophy, and be a bit less paranoid if I also disagree with you - just deal with the points raised.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's raise some pints instead.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's to you Mig - and if you read and make a nice comment about my Barcelona diary (those few who did really liked it !) - I'll buy you two pints at the next meet-up :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I read it, I didn't feel inclined to comment.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a pity - but I'm happy with comments like "super" and "fab" :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, but I'm not happy making 'me too' or 'o wow' comments.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well Chomsky would probably say that Krugman as a public intellectual has the function of marking the borders of acceptable debate. And the most extreme allowed leftwing position seems to be:"It's ok to be angry but let's not start anything drastic."

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter
by generic on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that a good point, but one also has to consider to what extent, in the current US context, Krugman has been responsible for helping to resist the increasing movement to the right of the intellectual framework there. I think Chomsky is probably pretty happy that Krugman is publishing regularly in the NYT. Is he as radical as some of  us would like him to be ? No, Is he a lot more radical than the Dems in general, yes.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For all I know he might be. And he never advocated a total exit from mainstream politics (voting, elections), but I don't remember him being all that mindful of the position of the less hateful members of main stream discourse.
And in this case anger is not only called for, it is necessary. There are situations that demand an angry mob. Krugman seems to be trying to calm the waves. So he will catch some flack.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter
by generic on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry I don't have time to peruse your link, I'm trying to get the fucking knife out of my back.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or getting the kniving fuck off your back.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think a lot of dems are feeling like that right now. although, you are fortunate indeed to be 4000 miles away from the direct consequences

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama warms up for the fight against assault weapons and the NRA by pre-emptively conceding to the republicans on the fiscal cliff when he had no need to do so.

He held all the trump cards: He'd just won a solid mandate and the tax cuts would die whatever the repugs did. All he had to do was sit in the white House and make them come crawling to him on their bellies begging for some little concession so's they could keep their mangey pride. And he threw it away.

Does this guy have any clue whatsoever ?

And americans are looking to him to do a bit more about assault weapons than give good speech. Well, given the way he negotiates, automatic weapons are gonna end up compulsory.

I did wonder how they were gonna make a ban stick with the might of the republican party dedicated to repeal as soon as they get their hand on the legislative bodies, but it looks like Obama isn't even gonna try (where have i heard that before ? - oh, again and again and again).

Gah !!! Useless

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:49:49 PM EST
He might just be <whisper> in favour of Social Security cuts </whisper>

No, forget I said that...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 12:54:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's good the voters had a choice.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 01:03:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, if only he had your wisdom, how simple it would all be, but maybe it's more complicated - see, for example, Krugman, but of course you know better than Krugman.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, if you're looking for one of your rational arguments, Ted, you're off on a bad one there.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that one of your more rational arguments ? :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:05:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because your above sneer is what?

Apart from a sneer?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, it included a reference to Krugman's arguments linked above - dismissed by you with a sneer  - or did I miss something ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:17:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please show me the sneer in my comment.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can try to find some Jeez for the whine.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:24:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

" just hand-wringing." - did I miss some argument or evidence ? :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's an opinion, not a sneer -- and even less a sneer directly addressed to another contributor on this blog.

I find no interest in Krugman's post beyond an ill-concealed readiness to accept (with due expressions of reluctance) what I believe he should firmly oppose.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"JUST hand-wringing" is not a sneer ? - well, I've learned something about English tonight :-)  But I accept your right to sneer, whether or not the opinion is expressed within eurotrib or not (which seems to me an irrelevant consideration). Now you do make your opinion a bit more clear, though it seems to be just that your assessment of the political forces involved differs from his - but his pretty informed and usually quite combative opinion seems to me to merit a bit more than "hand-wringing".

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is not a sneer. Actually, it has nothing to do with English, ie the meaning of the word "sneer", but a question of tone.

As for the "irrelevant consideration":

Ted Welch:

Oh, if only he had your wisdom, how simple it would all be... but of course you know better than Krugman

That was distinctly sneering in tone, and directly addressed to another poster here. That's a fact I considered relevant enough to bring up, because that comment was most unlikely to produce anything other than heat.

And that's my last comment in this thread.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, it has nothing to do with English, ie the meaning of the word "sneer", but a question of tone

Something of a snort, then?

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, understanding English does involve "tone" - and if "just hand-wringing" is not a sneering "tone" I don't know what is. Does it not suggest that he gives the appearance is making some rational assessment of the balance of power/options open, but all he's really doing is expressing his unhappiness. Yes, that's an opinion, but a rather patronising/sneering one - isn't that a fair analysis ?

As I've said before I think we should be able to criticise each other and sometimes this will involve being similarly dismissive if we think an opinion merits it. As it happens I would say that: "Oh, if only he had your wisdom, how simple it would all be... but of course you know better than Krugman" is sarcastic. I tend to think that we too easily dismiss those we disagree with (me too, but I try to resist it) and I think that people like Obama should not be dismissed so easily, especially when pretty bright, informed people like Krugman, very ready to condemn if he thinks it appropriate, say they understand the difficulties, and I think that we should not concentrate so much on individual character and personal attacks: "if that means giving the farm away for a packet of dead beans, he's gonna do it."  He did well to get in power, of course anyone who has a clue about the US has "no illusions" (Chomsky) about what he could do. He got back into power despite a poor economic situation, as a result about 45 million people will have health insurance who wouldn't under Romney. As Chomsky said to a very left-wing critic, small differences can have major consequences.


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 06:40:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People here are allowed to sneer at Krugman, Obama, Berlusconi, Hollande or whoever. These people are all public figures, and as far as I know, none of them post here. They are therefore fair game, by universal convention.

You seem to place such sneering on a level with people here sneering (or being sarcastic) with each other. This is an entirely different kettle of fish. It seems you have reacted with sarcasm to people dissing Obama and Krugman. This denotes a level of emotional involvement which is unwelcome here, and several people have called you on it. I don't think you're a bully, I think you're just confused about the implicit rules here. It's a common mistake on the internet, but I've always thought it a beginner's mistake. You can do better.

Sorry if this sounds patronising. But you've earned that.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 03:07:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Berlusconi? The man who just said that the ECB should become a lender of last resort for the currency bloc, and, if not, that Italy should leave the Euro?  Why should anyone want to sneer at him?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 03:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ah, you're partly right, most people here are allowed to sneer; it's just that, in Teds world, I'm not. I, apparently, suffer from a tone issue. My opinions would be perfectly acceptable, if only I could learn to express them in a more pleasant, Ted-approved, tone.

Except, of course, such a thing is impossible for me. Ever since the year dot, Ted, our resident seagull commenter, has flown in, shit all over me, and then, a few days later, flown out again, disappearing somewhere Nice for a few months before returning to clutch his pearls at how little I seem to have learned.

Whatever. He'll grow tired in a couple of weeks. It's not as if he actually contributes positively to our debates so there's really nothing to keep him here

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 04:21:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know many men like this and they all have an issue with control, that is very evident when women speak their minds.  They try to frame it as an issue of "tone" but I really think it's because they want women to always be pleasant and unassuming.

They are one of the worst type of interlocutors I come across and it's even more difficult for women as they make an effort to keep their composure while they are being blamed for their "tone" to begin with.

So sorry you have to go through this.

by stevesim on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 04:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we've had enough of this. You and Ted's personal issues go beyond what should be exposed in public discussion.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 04:41:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think it's fair to blame Helen for this.  She is merely defending herself from an unprovoked attack.
by stevesim on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 05:00:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's no blame attached to my request for an end to this discussion.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 05:06:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree, it would be nice if the discussion were ended.

But it really isn't pleasant to make a comment here and find somebody just dumps abuse all over me. You might think I should ignore it, but it sits there, in plain sight for anyone to see and draw inferences and conclusions from it, however unfair. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I really, REALLY don't want to have to spend all my time on this blog responding to Ted's attacks. It's tiresome and repetitive.

If you don't like those threads, do what you did last time and delete them as soon as the abuse appears. but not my original comment as that would serve his  purpose well. If Ted wants to contribute positively, let them stay. But I WILL NOT stay silent while he just dumps all over me. It's down to you

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 06:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You've said what you had to say, and even abundantly for a public forum. I don't see any call to continue.

I've never deleted a thread. I may have decided to close comments. I'll do that again if this goes on.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 07:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, well, I would leave it at that, but, as you indicate, Helen did go on and on with the same old "he's always attacking ME" - so, for the record some facts.

  1. It's NOT personal, we've met at meet-ups in Paris and discussed in a group with no problem.  I just disagree with some of her dismissive opinions, and she has a lot of them, she's entitled to them, as I'm entitled to disagree. I SOMETIMES criticise (but sometimes don't because I know it will just start another round of accusations), and yes, this time I was sarcastic - not a major crime in British culture, even in online forums. But I also disagree with a range of other people - the suggestion that I only disagree with and pick on her is ridiculous. The attacks by her in response went beyond a bit of sarcasm, see 2.

  2. When Helen does purports to cite some facts in HER attacks, she gets it very wrong, e.g.:

"You are consistent, I'll give you. disappear for 6 months, then pop back with a diary, a few social comments, none of which are remotely political and then, give it a week or so, you're all over anything I say like a rash."

Apart from the exaggeration of "all over anything I say" for two comments in some months, and that there's no attendance requirement for commenting, the "none of them remotely political" is blatantly false:

Thus in October I did a diary about Hollande:

"On 'Hollande-bashing"

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/10/15/15429/592

AND, rather relevant, a diary not only very political, but actually defending Obama: "For Obama - 'without illusions' "?  

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/10/22/95730/478

She's not obliged to read it, but ought to check her facts before making such dismissive and mistaken comments.

It's also relevant that in both cases I was defending them against what I thought were unfair criticisms.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Dec 20th, 2012 at 03:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

As promised, comments are now closed.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2012 at 02:05:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Me and half the democratic party it seems. The guy can't negotiate for shit. Everything he did in his first term was all about meeting the other guys halfway by giving them things they never even dreamt of getting. That's not negotiation, that's surrender.

If I'm not allowed an opinion, or indeed if nobody here is allowed an opinion, then what is this blog for. News aggregation is dull. I don't come here just to read, I come cos it's cheaper than putting  brick through the telly.

But as you only nip in once every 6 months, I gotta ask, who died and made you the decider of what is, or what is not the right way to do anything on ET ? Who the f... are you to tell me off ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh calm down, did I say you weren't allowed an opinion, don't be ridiculous just because someone disagrees with your opinion.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Looked less like a contested opinion and more like your normal sneering response to anything I say.

You are consistent, I'll give you. disappear for 6 months, then pop back with a diary, a few social comments, none of which are remotely political and then, give it a week or so, you're all over anything I say like a rash.

that's fine. You do what you want to do. There was a time when I worried about it, now it's just tiresomely predictable.

no doubt you'll find some other people to plague and then go away. see yer in May

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:12:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Believe it or not, it has nothing to do with you and instead with what you say; you just happen to frequently come up with dismissive, and to me, unjustified criticisms of an often personal, or whole group nature. Instead of bleating about being attacked personally (which I haven't done) maybe you could just focus on the issues raised. I was not aware that one had to gain regularlity points before one was allowed to make comments - and expected that the focus would be on the validity of the points raised.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:23:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice isn't so nice, I think.
by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, an entirely unbiased point of view :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL.  You are very funny Ted.  I really enjoy your misplaced sense of intellectual superiority.
by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Always happy to contribute to people's enjoyment :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Playing the Fool rather well, aren't you?

Lay off haranguing the women, Ted.  It's considered bad manners in France.  You should have learned that at least from living there so long.

by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:54:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Haranguing the women" ?  Oh how right-on you like to seem; did you mean my disagreement about an opinion about Obama - which has nothing to do with the gender of of the person expressing the opinion ( cf my disagreement with afew). Where is the "harangue" ? What is foolish about my opinion about Krugman and Obama ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my brief time here, I couldn't help but notice that Helen is almost exclusively the target of your nastiness and that you are quick to hurl judgements at her no matter what she says

This, to most, would demonstrate a psychological agenda on your part, that I can only describe as "bullying" because that she has done nothing to deserve such treatment from anyone.

I think that you should be banned, honestly.

by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Helen happens to express a LOT of opinions here, as you may have noticed. I have disagreed with her a number of times over the years, and often have had the "you're attacking me" response. It had an effect, in fact I have resisted disagreeing sometimes, because I knew it would lead not to discussion of the issues but to more accusations.  

You are hardly, given our recent discussion, an impartial witness - so avoid obvious "nastiness" - like calling for banning someone because they have disagreed with someone else over general issues, nothing personal.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:28:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's disagreeing and there's throwing insults ham handedly around.  You fall into the second category.

I can disagree with someone without resorting to the snide little remarks you love to throw out with your pompous remarks.

That's what I and I assume, Helen, object to.

by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, unlike you with such "ham-handed insults" as "haranguing women" - what a bounder ! :-)  So good  to see that you can disagree without resorting to terms like "snide" and "pompous". Maybe you have a point to make about the topics being discussed, rather than trying to get a bit of revenge for having had your prejudiced attitude exposed.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 06:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're not generally in the business of banning people.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:46:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Too bad.  Some people are begging for a good banning.
by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm, yes, this is no place for people with prejudiced views based on crude stereotypes.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 06:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, if you were intending to make a decent point, then maybe you had better re-appraise the way you go about it. Cos, unlike anybody else who has ever commented here, it seems to me that your responses are more an arrogant and chiding attack on a commenting behaviour that other people seem to regard as, if not informative and captivating, at least honest and heartfelt.

And i wonder where you get the arrogance. Really. normally, somebody has to be in good standing in a community before they start attacking other members of good standing. Yet you are, at the very least, only an occasional visitor. But somehow believe you may waft in from your cushioned and detached perch by the Mediterranean to school us paysans about how to properly carry out intellectual discourse.

Well, up yours. You don't live here, I do. and you'll be gone again soon so I'm not inclined to give a flying one what you think

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh dear, the same old "how dare you disagree with me, I'm a regular here".  Just respond to the point and leave it at that -  how often someone contributes has nothing to do with the validity of any point they raise.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:54:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you're not raising a point about the substance of my complaint, you're whining about the style. It's sixth form bullying of the Heathers school of "don't talk to me, you're not wearing your tie in the approved style"

As usual. You've got nothing on me except a heightened sense of your own relevance.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How is it "bullying" ( again the victim plea) if object to your style ?  I take it that is permitted to object to style as well as content ? But I also referred you to Krugman, so you could have explained why you didn't think Krugman was convincing - even objected to his style, maybe agreeing that it was mere "hand-wringing" - as well as his content. But again you prefer accusations of personal attack rather than debate.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:18:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no victim plea, just plain bullying.  You're a bully, Ted, plain and simple.
by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:29:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, asserting it must make it true. How does arguing with someone amount to "bullying" ? Is Helen, or are you, incapable of replying to anything I say - clearly not. Please don't just assert your opinion again - it could seem like a foolish attempt at bullying - of course not possible here :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 06:57:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps you just should stop now. Your first comment looked very much like sneering to me.

But perhaps I don't the concept of sneering and only your counterparts were sneering and you were making a highly principled argument. But however this started and whoever sinned first or most or worst -

You risk turning into a Michael Kohlhaas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kohlhaas

 

by IM on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 07:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 I was talking about bullying, which is not the same as sneering. I've already said that I was sarcastic, clearly that is not "making a highly principled argument" - but I have no problem with your sarcasm, especially since it is at odds with the facts. Maybe you should stop now, or take a bit more care.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Dec 20th, 2012 at 07:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what is this blog for. News aggregation is dull. I don't come here just to read, I come cos it's cheaper than putting  brick through the telly
priceless

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:16:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
I don't come here just to read, I come cos it's cheaper than putting  brick through the telly.

ROFLMAO

that's make a great sig for you.

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:30:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oooooo, lovin' these little things:
solar panel car-bikes

NOT loving getting used to this frickin' German keyboard.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 02:59:42 PM EST
do I get a prize for noticing it's not yet Thursday ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:09:57 PM EST
It isn't? Oh darn, it was the r that was wrong.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now corrected to Wednesday.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I shall therefore wait here for the present

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Presents are next week.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're over it, already.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have today seen the worlds most British Facebook post, made by a friend of mine

XXXXX

Is pleased to say the Hell's Angels liked the teapot they commissioned me to make.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:47:03 PM EST
In some ways, Germany is admirable: @OlafStorbeck
German Minister of Education and Research (sic!) about to lose her PhD title because of plagiarism http://goo.gl/dfTAS  (link in GER)


I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:53:28 PM EST
another one?  LOL

btw, what's von Gutenberg up to these days?  hiding in the USA?

by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:22:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's von und zu Gutenberg for you, Sir.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:22:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry, I am just a pleb although my grandfather was an Austrian count.
by stevesim on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh... my dad's maternal line was traced back to William the Conquerer. But that probably makes me a bastard somehow.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, William was himself a bastard, belatedly legitimized. So yes.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:33:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But your descent from him is unlikely to pass through any bastards, because they generally didn't get their genealogy recorded.

On the other hand, being descended from him in legitimate lineage by no means guarantees that you carry any of his genes, if you see what I mean. It's only ever putative.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I've had to do a lot of genealogy work over the years (though not my own) and "putative" is dead on. I also was aware that his other nickname was William the Bastard.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:43:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on period, some periods had great acceptance for the bastard children of the rich and powerful. I think Sweden's legal distinction between socially legitimate bastards (frillobarn) and socially illegitimate bastards (oäkting) lasted into the 20th century. Frillobarn had less rigths then children within a marriage, but they had rights and they were accepted as a child of their father, in particular for the nobility. No inheritance of titles though.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 01:56:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia: " In 2011 Guttenberg joined the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) as a Distinguished Statesman. He also advises European Commission Vice President Neelie Kroes on the promotion of internet freedom regarding questions of foreign affairs."

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 05:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Last year's discussion thread on Guttenberg and Kroes.
by Bernard on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 05:34:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, failing up. How nice for him.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 02:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Catching plagiarists is such fun.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 03:45:12 AM EST
The Science Musuem of Torino is having an exhibition on the end of the world. It opened yesterday, and closes on Jan 20 (assuming the world doesn't end first).
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 06:08:33 AM EST
Independent
The winter may be peak season for coughs and colds but there is no point in taking antibiotics to shift them, experts say.

The largest randomised placebo-controlled trial of antibiotics for acute respiratory infections has shown that they are no more effective at relieving symptoms than taking a sugar pill.

They needed to do a study to figure that out?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 06:16:00 AM EST
there are natural antibiotics, like garlic and golden seal.

the latter is quite powerful, but the best thing is you don't have to take it for any proscribed period of time, you just stop as soon as you start to feel better.

the problem i always used to have with standard pharma antis was as you'd start feeling better because of infection going down, you'd still feel shitty from the antibiotics, and no matter how fast your body healed, you were always admonished to finish the cycle come hell or high water, condemning yourself to another week or so of feeling yucky.

ther is no culture in europe of golden seal, it grows exclusively in america, and was used by the native indians, then the settlers.

it's still a good idea to replensish your pro-biotics to get digestion in balance after/during the taking of them.

some do the 5 cloves of garlic, and it frequently works too.

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2012 at 08:03:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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