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Debt Does Matter

by ARGeezer Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:30:48 PM EST

Economics without a blind spot on debt   Steve Keen

Steve Keen is being interviewed in front of a live audience at the London School of Economics on April 3. The topic will be Banks vs. the Economy. The following was excerpted from a post he prepared for the LSE blog British Politics and Policy at LSE and which he reproduced on his blog Debtwatch.

The LSE and the BBC are to be applauded for this contribution to the discussion of what needs to be done to resolve the ongoing financial, social, political and economic crisis gripping the world.

As a car driver, you have surely had the experience of changing lanes and being beeped by a car with which you were about to collide--but which you didn't see before the lane change. It's because the car was clearly visible in your rear-view mirror, but that part of the image fell on your retina's blind-spot--so you didn't see it. Fortunately most of us learn that we have a blind spot, and so we check carefully to avoid being fooled by it again--and causing an avoidable accident.

If only economists could learn the same way, we might not now be in the accident of this never-ending economic crisis. "Neoclassical" economists (who dominate both academic economics and policy advice to governments) have a blind-spot about the role of private debt in macroeconomics, yet despite the economy crashing once before because of it during the Great Depression, they continue to argue that it's irrelevant now--during this latest crash.


First, let's establish that there was indeed a "car in the rear view mirror" in the 1930s and today. Data on long-term private debt levels is difficult to find, but I've located it for both the USA from 1920 till today, and for Australia from 1880 (see Figure 1). Clearly, there was a debt bubble before the Great Depression, and a plunge in debt levels during and after it (and Australian data also shows the same phenomenon during an earlier bubble and crash in the Depression of the 1890s; see Fisher and Kent 1999). The same process is clearly afoot again now.

Figure 1

Now for the blind-spot. Anyone not blessed--or rather cursed--by an economics education might think there was something in that coincidence of debt and Depressions. But it's nothing to worry about, leading Neoclassical economists assure us--thus confirming that either they know something profound that proves that the coincidence is irrelevant, or that they have a blind-spot which means that their judgment can't be trusted.

The profound insight they believe they have is that the level of debt doesn't matter, and that only the distribution of debt can be important. Ben Bernanke rejected Irving Fisher's "Debt Deflation" explanation for the Great Depression on this basis; after noting that Fisher did influence Roosevelt's policies, Bernanke added that:

   `Fisher's idea was less influential in academic circles, though, because of the counterargument that debt-deflation represented no more than a redistribution from one group (debtors) to another (creditors). Absent implausibly large differences in marginal spending propensities among the groups, it was suggested, pure redistributions should have no significant macro-economic effects...' (Bernanke 2000, p. 24)

One crisis later, leading Neoclassicals like Paul Krugman continue to argue that only the distribution of debt can matter:

   People think of debt's role in the economy as if it were the same as what debt means for an individual: there's a lot of money you have to pay to someone else. But that's all wrong; the debt we create is basically money we owe to ourselves, and the burden it imposes does not involve a real transfer of resources.

    That's not to say that high debt can't cause problems -- it certainly can. But these are problems of distribution and incentives, not the burden of debt as is commonly understood. (Krugman 2011)



For a clear presentation of the role of the change of debt and the rate of change of debt on the performance of the economy see Better Economic Theories
So can we ignore the level of private debt? No--because this "profound insight" is in fact a blind-spot about the role of banks and debt in a capitalist economy. Neoclassical economists treat banks as irrelevant to macroeconomics--which is why banks are not explicitly included in their models--and regard a loan as merely a transfer from a saver (or "patient agent") to a borrower (or "impatient agent"), as in Krugman's "New Keynesian" model of our current crisis:

   In what follows, we begin by setting out a flexible-price endowment model in which "impatient" agents borrow from "patient" agents, but are subject to a debt limit. (Krugman and Eggertsson 2010, p. 3)

With that model of lending, a change in the level of debt has no inherent macroeconomic impact: the lender's spending power goes down, the borrower's goes up, and the two changes roughly cancel each other out.

However, in the real world, banks lend to non-bank agents, giving them spending power without reducing the spending power of other non-bank agents.

See Steve's blog post for the tabular figures 2 & 3 which clearly show the difference between the NCE analysis of the role of banks in the economy and the model used by, for instance, by economists at the FRBNY since the '70s. In their analysis and modeling NCE does not seem to really take account of the role of variation in bank created 'money' in the economy, which correlates well with the business cycle. Steve Keen does and shows the correlation between accelerated borrowing and declines in unemployment as well as decelerated borrowing, or 'deleveraging' and rises in unemployment.

As to Krugman's claim "flexible-price endowment model in which "impatient" agents borrow from "patient" agents, but are subject to a debt limit" - just where was that 'debt limit' from 2000 to 2008 - when we needed it? Please indicate on Steve Keen's figure 6 below:


Display:
Ireland's crash is another case in point. Government debt was 25% GDP in 2007 - an historic low.   However private debt was (from memory) c. 400% of GDP. Even now Irish external debt is at 1,165% of GDP!  Try deflating that little bubble...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Mar 21st, 2012 at 07:25:56 AM EST
The only sane way to deal with such a bubble is to let those who participated, especially those who benefited, take the hit. But the corrupt nature of our politics, and not just the US or Ireland, has us, over and over, seeing the government try desperately to save the perpetrators of dodgy and, usually, fraudulent schemes at the public's expense.

The standard "I would hate to think that our government and these fine politicians are corrupt..." line of thinking, along with the seemingly almost universal fact of ownership of the mass media by those who are part of the problem, or who sympathize with those who are, has, to date, held pretty well. This is aided and abetted by intellectual 'air cover' from academia which extends to the vast preponderance of economists in academia who are, in some cases unwillingly, part of intellectual fraud.

It is particularly galling that one of the most public and, in presentation, most 'liberal' of these, Krugman, still so faithfully carries water for corrupt finance. The man could be a hero by renouncing the damage done by generations of weak analysis and pathetically reductionist modeling, but that is unlikely. In the Fed paper Brad DeLong cited Krugman et al. try to dress the same shabby monster in new stylish clothes, apparently hoping that style will save him.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 21st, 2012 at 10:43:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Given this, and its continuance, perhaps it is rational for you too to get in on the game and borrow lots of money?  Perhaps borrow a few hundred million and forget to repay?
by njh on Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 at 11:51:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Should tax payers pay ARGeezer's 100 million then?
by kjr63 on Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 at 12:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sadly I, along with >99.999% of the US electorate do not make the TBTF list. And the >$5 trillion of direct expenditures and additional >$10 trillion of guarantees have not helped me or the vast majority of the 99.999%.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 at 01:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you borrowed 100 million you would.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 at 01:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a commission in it if you can help me qualify.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 at 02:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And there was my scheme to securitize all of the old RVs sitting at residences around the south. They are homes, after all.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 at 02:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 In his paper Debt, Deleveraging, and the Liquidity Trap, cited by Migereu via Brad De Long in Teusday's OT, Krugman et al. spend considerable time showing that Minsky, Irving Fisher and others who have been concerned with the role of debt can be fitted to their Procrustean bed of 'equilibrium' modeling and the beloved DSGE model. To me, what Krugman succeeds in doing is demonstrating that, like the Ptolemaic model of the heavens with epicycle piled upon epicycle, DSGE can 'explain' anything.

By distinguishing between the debt constraints on borrowers and incorporating equations describing these factors into the model they manage to derive the Phillips Curve, IS and, presumably LS, and to substantiate some of Keynes' observations concerning the liquidity trap. The divorce of 'mainstream economics' from both the reality of widespread discussion of problems with debt and the difficulties that mainstream view was having explaining developments and justifying Fed actions possibly proved too excruciating to continue to maintain that debt didn't matter. The lack of relevance of the former approach and of his glib dismissals of debt was starting to become glaring. So, like any good Scholastic, he finds new ways to update the old model.

Perhaps we are at a stage comparable to that at the time of Kepler's first publication of a heliocentric model of the solar system with planets moving in (gasp) ellipses as the general case. Keen has derived a model that incorporates multiple 'agents' in a time based set of linear differential equations. And his system of equations give rise to outputs that reproduce the form of recognizable economic behavior. Thomas Khun's observations on the nature of scientific revolutions may be coming into play, in an optimistic view. Unfortunately that involves time on a generational scale.  

While incorporating these factors is an advance on previous practice, from the viewpoint of the desirability of having an obvious relation between theory and observed behavior, Keen's approach should win hands down. But perhaps the most important aspect of the 'equilibrium analysis'/DSGE model is its apparent ability to provide what ever output is needed for rhetorical and political purposes. A better model might not offer such a nifty Alice In Wonderland "it means exactly what I say it means" capability.

Hopefully someone will put up a link or a podcast of Keen's presentation at the LSE with the BBC. Steve is pretty good at getting such events posted on his blog. And I can only wonder if Krugman got a heads up from someone at the LSE prior to or during his preperation of the Fed paper. That paper increasingly seems like the process of watching a chameleon change its coloring and patterns to blend into a new environment and it should serve, at the minimum, as a first line of defense. At least it has lots of linear equations with lots of Greek letters.  

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 21st, 2012 at 01:34:36 PM EST
Discussion in Tuesday's Open Thread

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 21st, 2012 at 01:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Steve Keen is also presenting at The Institue for New Economic Thinking's Berlin 2012 Conference in April. His paper is titled Instability in Financial Markets: Sources and Remedies. Steve reprises and summarizes part of this in his March 21 post on Debtwatch.

A Primer on Minsky  

The paper starts with a synopsis on Minsky, since his "Financial Instability Hypothesis" is one of the key foundations of my approach to economics. He has come into vogue these days of course, but to people who've known his work for several decades rather than ever since the "Minsky Moment" of late 2007, a better expression would be that he's "come into vague". I read papers like Krugman's "Debt, Deleveraging, and the Liquidity Trap: A Fisher-Minsky-Koo approach", and for the life of me, I can't see Minsky there. As I note in my paper:

   Now, after the crisis that his theory anticipated, neoclassical economists are paying some attention to his hypothesis, and there has been at least one attempt to build a New Keynesian model of a key phenomenon in Minsky's hypothesis, a debt-deflation (Krugman and Eggertsson 2010). However, to those of us who are not new to Minsky, it is hard to recognise any vestige of the Financial Instability Hypothesis in Krugman's work.

My good friend and long term fellow rebel in economics Professor Rod O'Donnell once remarked that neoclassical economists are incapable of reading Keynes: they look at his words and then spout Walras instead. A similar phenomenon applies here: neoclassicals like Krugman read Minsky, and then proceed to build equilibrium models without banks, and think they're modelling Minsky.

No they're not: they're creating an equilibrium-obsessed Walrasian hand puppet and calling it Minsky--just as they did to Keynes with DSGE modelling.


The above is followed in his blog post with comparable treatments of Disequilibrium, (after all it is "Minsky's Financial Instability Hypothesis"), Endogenous Money, and Neoclassical Misinterpretations of Fisher, Minsky & Banking.

I questioned that Krugman had actually incorporated Minsky into his new model. Steve vigorously denies that he has or that he could in a Walrasian equilibrium model. Rather, he seems a rather determined Procrustes regarding his guests Minsky and Fisher, even if lopping off limbs is insufficient and he then has to proceed to evisceration.

I suspect that this April will be a sort of coming out party for Steve Keen and I think some of the 'mainstream' may be getting nervous, fearing the stream may cut a new course.

Well, I can dream.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 at 01:00:10 AM EST
Krugman blog: Minksy and Methodology (Wonkish)
Steve Keen has a new post up (with a link to a new paper) about Minksyan (Minskyite?) economics, and how people like me get it wrong. Good for him; debates like this are always productive, and I wish domestic responsibilities weren't keeping me from going to the Berlin conference.

...

So, first of all, my basic reaction to discussions about What Minsky Really Meant -- and, similarly, to discussions about What Keynes Really Meant -- is, I Don't Care. I mean, intellectual history is a fine endeavor. But for working economists the reason to read old books is for insight, not authority; if something Keynes or Minsky said helps crystallize an idea in your mind -- and there's a lot of that in both mens' writing -- that's really good, but if where you take the idea is very different from what the great man said somewhere else in his book, so what? This is economics, not Talmudic scholarship.

...

I always try to find the simplest representation I can of whatever story I'm trying to tell about the economy. ...

Keen doesn't seem to be doing that. His paper contains a number of assertions about what is crucial, without much explanation of why these things are crucial. And I guess I just don't see it.



There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2012 at 04:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the next one:

Banking Mysticism - NYTimes.com

As I (and I think many other economists) see it, banks are a clever but somewhat dangerous form of financial intermediary, one that exploits the law of large numbers to offer a better tradeoff between liquidity and returns, but does so at the cost of taking on very high leverage, with all the risks that entails.The super-high leverage of banks, and the role of bank deposits as a key form of liquid assets, means that banks broadly defined are usually central players in financial crises. But that's a quantitative thing, not a qualitative thing.


A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 04:31:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is the interconnectedness of the financial sector, but Krugman not understanding collective phenomena in statistical physics he can't see the qualitative difference.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 04:33:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When I read these both posts by Krugman I get the impression that the conversation goes something like this:

Keen

One key component of Minsky's thought is the capacity for the banking sector to create spending power "out of nothing"--to quote Schumpeter.

Krugman

[Keen] asserts that putting banks in the story is essential. Now, I'm all for including the banking sector in stories where it's relevant; but why is it so crucial to a story about debt and leverage?

Krugman again

[Banks] exploits the law of large numbers to offer a better tradeoff between liquidity and returns, but does so at the cost of taking on very high leverage, with all the risks that entails.

I see here a conflict between an empirical and an idealistic approach. In the empirical approach it is crucial if banks do or do not create spending power out of thin air. In the idealistic approach, it is crucial if it makes a better story.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 04:52:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the empirical approach it is crucial if banks do or do not create spending power out of thin air.

But that is not crucial at all. It appears to be important to Keen, but it's not actually important in Minsky.

The crucial difference is that an economy with a single bank is more financially stable than an economy with many interconnected banks.

To make a thermodynamic analogy, in thermodynamics it is usual to encircle a chunk of your system in an imaginary boundary, call the imaginary boundary a "subsystem" and consider it a black box described only by its aggregate thermodynamic quantities (temperature, pressure...) and the aggregate flows through the boundary.

In economics, you can do the same with "the banking sector" and you get the "one bank" toy model used to explain the (bogus) money multiplier (see the table illustrating the "process of money multiplication" here).

In a real economy the black box "the bankign sector" may be "one bank" with an aggregate (net! meaning interbank debt, since it isn't debt between the inside and outside of the "imaginary boundary", doesn't count) balance sheet actually contains a dynamical system which is quite capable of generating its own instabilities, which then propagate to "the real economy" outside the "imaginary boundary" because it does matter to individual agents in the real economy which individual bank goes belly up inside the "imaginary boundary" even if the aggregate "ona bank" is still solvent and functioning.

That is why you need to model explicitly the banking sector as many banks.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 05:01:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see your point, but I was aiming at something else. I'll rephrase.

I see a conflict between an empirical and an idealistic approach. In the empirical approach wheter banks do or do not create spending power out of thin air is an empirical question that can be checked. In the idealistic approach wheter banks do or do not create spending power out of thin air is a question that is ruled by getting the simplest representation possible.

The idealistic models will thus have a preference for simplicity that is unchecked by empirical findings. Which then leads to oversimplification.

This may look terribly unfair, but Krugman is arguing that his description of banks is better because it has fever assumptions, without any reference to wheter the assumptions can be checked or not. And that is just straight out of scholasticism.

Or to put it another way, this is the impression I get when I read these articles.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 08:11:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yanis Varoufakis: Keynesian Legacies neither Europe nor Keynes deserved: A critique of New and ISLM Keynesians in the context of Europe's Crisis (28 March, 2012)
The answer is: Because `Keynesianism' had, after Keynes had met his `long run', accepted the preposterous proposition that one can think of the macroeconomy as if it comprised of millions of clones of a single person; a genetically reproduced Robinson Crusoe whose clones think the same thoughts (plus or minus some random error). (Recall the disastrous Samuelsonian interpretation of Keynes.) And why did they make this concession? In order to put Keynes' thought into a closed mathematical model or, at the textbook level, to capture his `thought' in terms of some appealing, easy to explain geometry. To see that this concession destroyed whatever analytical value Keynes had to offer, consider again the little game I presented (in blue) in Section 2. Suppose that the players are clones and they think identical thoughts, plus or minus a random error. Suddenly, the game loses all its interest: The outcome becomes predicable (each will choose 0 and everyone will gain $1000) and the game's subtle point (that it is impossible even for the smartest player to know what to do; the result depending on the average degree of optimism) vanishes. Similarly, the moment Keynes' thought was imprisoned in these mathematical models, populated by telepathic clones of some Robinson Crusoe, Keynes was doomed to oblivion.


There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 09:44:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the moment Keynes' thought was imprisoned in these mathematical models, populated by telepathic clones of some Robinson Crusoe, Keynes was doomed to oblivion.

And Samuelson had succeeded in doing to Keynes what the first generation of NCE economists had done to George, though, in this case, with a twenty year delayed action fuse. I cannot help but wonder about motivation. From Wiki:

Samuelson studied economics under Joseph Schumpeter, Wassily Leontief, Gottfried Haberler, and the "American Keynes" Alvin Hansen.

Of his graduate committee Hansen seems the most likely to have been the source of such motivation. Hanson had studied under Ely at Wisconsin who had been scarred by having taken inappropriate views towards socialism early in his career and was one to the NCE economists profiles by Gaffney. The others were foreign born and educated. But this is speculation.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 11:44:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that is not crucial at all. It appears to be important to Keen, but it's not actually important in Minsky.

Are you sure about Minsky here? This is a crucial question. If a bank creates credit on top of the real economy, it creates extra demand that wasn't there. In practise banks create asset price inflation, ..and perhaps misallocation of capital. There is no wealth in the underlying real economy to pay these interest charges. And when credit creation ends, deflation begins.
The situation is completely different, if the deflation preceeds credit creation. Then there is capacity to expand in the real economy.

by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 10:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about the entirety of Minsky's work, I'm talking about the financial instability hypothesis only. Whether purchasing power is created or not is immaterial. What matters is the interconnectedness of economic units and the more or less leveraged financing postures. What makes banks peculiar is that, unavoidable according to Minsky, banks are "speculative" [Minsky's term] financing units. Banks are also connected to a much larger number of other entities than average economic units.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 11:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If a bank creates credit on top of the real economy, it creates extra demand that wasn't there.

When a bank grants credit to the real economy, it monetizes pent-up demand.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 11:24:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<blockaquote>When a bank grants credit to the real economy, it monetizes pent-up demand. </blockaquote>

Perhaps, but without creating supply.

by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 11:33:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The supply is there, otherwise there wouldn't be a creditworthy credit request.

Basically, when a buyer pays a manufacturer on credit the supply exists (or the process to manufacture it is mobilized by the payment) and the credit monetizes pent-up demand.

Seriously. Not all credit fuels asset price bubbles.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 11:38:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This argument assumes proper underwriting, the lack of which was the key characteristic revealed by the GFC. But most of the abuses occurred in the 'shadow banking' sector and this likely would not have been anticipated by Minsky. When you get people seeking to make doomed loans, package and sell them to others and then bet against them, and regulators refusing to see what is happening then all presumptions of 'normal' banking and business go out the window, as happened with bankster finance.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 11:52:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This argument assumes proper underwriting,

Yes. All stories about banks which do not end with "and then the socially optimal response is to line all the bankers up against a wall and shoot them" assume proper underwriting standards. If you do not have proper underwriting standards, you are running an unusually privileged counterfeiting operation, not a bank.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 01:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yet there is the ongoing official obliviousness towards ongoing obvious failures of underwriting. And then there is the ongoing propaganda 'stories' about how vital the existing TBTFs are to the system. All the while those who would advocate lining even the obviously criminal fraudster bankers up against a wall and shooting them would be labeled as 'terrorists' and even those who would advocate prosecuting and imprisoning them are accused of threatening the foundations of our society, which it would, given the criminal nature of those financial foundations at present.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 06:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The supply is there, otherwise there wouldn't be a creditworthy credit request.

No there isn't for the interest charges without preceding deflation.


Basically, when a buyer pays a manufacturer on credit the supply exists (or the process to manufacture it is mobilized by the payment) and the credit monetizes pent-up demand.

Seriously. Not all credit fuels asset price bubbles.

Seriously not. If the credit creates expansion of the real economy enough to cover the interest. Assuming the other factors are neutral.

by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 11:59:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, according to you, all economic activity should be done out of cash reserves?

Otherwise I don't understand your fundamental objection to the mechanism by which a bank creates the cash to advance to a client to purchase some good or service from a seller.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 12:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No. I don't have objection to fiat money. Why would you think that? I have objection to asset price inflation, wage deflation and debt deflation, that is unproductive credit.

Even inflation in goods and services may not be such a bad thing. If that results wage inflation.

by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 01:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am in no way against consumption. The point of Keen/Minsky (at least how i see it) is just that debt growth does not stop where the real economy stops. Banker may think a customer has the ability to pay, but if debt deflation is too high the credit creates just more unpayable interest charges at the macro level. Which will lead to disaster, the magic of compund interest.
by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 02:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interest is typically not allowed to compound. Prudent bankers make sure to collect interest as it accrues rather than permitting it to compound. The only place you regularly find compounding interest in the real world is in Ponzi scams.

(Incidentally, this little fact blows "long-run money neutrality" wide open, which in turn torpedoes half the neoclassical modeling framework.)

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 02:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You find a sort of compounding interest almost everywhere where is asset price bubble. When the real economy does not cover the interest without recession, it can only be paid by new debt, to keep economy going. At some point there is no return.
by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 03:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, bubbles are Ponzi scams without the Ponzi (or sometimes with one). This is why it's the financial regulator's job to kill bubbles dead, or at the very least plan ahead for dealing with the fallout.

But blowing bubbles is not the main activity of a properly run financial system. Of course, an improperly run financial system does all sorts of dumb shit, but that is a problem with right-wingers breaking the financial system, not a problem with interest-bearing debt per se. If the system worked otherwise, the right-wingers would just find ways to break that system.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 04:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Part of the problem is that many have little or no experience with a 'properly run financial system', as Alan Greenspan's tenure ran from 1987 to 2006. When and where were there properly run financial systems? It is a judgement call, but finance has been predatory to some extent for a long time, even if the predation was more practiced in other countries for a long while, as is the case in Germany today. Perhaps it would be instructive to look at such golden eras.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 06:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Financial repression.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 06:36:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent clue.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 08:56:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But blowing bubbles is not the main activity of a properly run financial system.

That is the nature of fiat money. To prevent it self-destruct you need regulation.

by kjr63 on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 07:10:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
blowing bubbles is not the main activity of a properly run financial system

That is the nature of fiat money

No, since bubbles were blown also under the gold standard (most notably, the bubbles leading to the crash of 1929).

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 07:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is the nature of fiat money.

Fixed it for you.

To prevent it self-destruct you need regulation.

And in other breaking news, water is wet and the Sun rises in the East each morning.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 04:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seriously not. If the credit creates expansion of the real economy enough to cover the interest. Assuming the other factors are neutral.

That is a sufficient requirement, but not a necessary one. Banks have overhead costs too, and these must be covered by the interest (or, more to the point, by the difference between the interest and the rediscount rate).

Stock-flow consistency is your friend, and he's feeling left out of your argument.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 02:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not necessary one?. Are you seriously claiming that fiat-bankers earn their interest?
by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 02:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First: Whether income is earned or unearned is immaterial to its effects on aggregate prices and volumes of production. We can have a great morality play about whether interest (or, for that matter, unemployment payment) is "earned" or "unearned." But for the purposes of determining prices and volumes, income is income.

Second: Some fiat bankers actually do earn their interest. It would be silly, of course, to claim that all do, but it would be equally silly to claim that none do.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 02:25:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant outside real economy. We can say that income distribution does not matter, within real economy, and call all income there earned. I can accept that for the sake of theory. But interest captured from monetary bubble in asset price inflation is immaterial to volumes of production?
No way.
by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 03:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant outside real economy. We can say that income distribution does not matter, within real economy, and call all income there earned.

No, income distribution absolutely does matter. What doesn't matter is whether that income distribution arises from, say, high wages and high personal taxes, low wages and high corporate taxes; private pensions or discriminatory public pensions; and so on.

Once you have the income distribution, you have the income distribution. To low order, its origin story isn't all that interesting for the purpose of economic forecasting.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 04:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, income distribution absolutely does matter.

Of course (even neoclassists claim otherwise).

What doesn't matter is whether that income distribution arises from, say, high wages and high personal taxes, low wages and high corporate taxes; private pensions or discriminatory public pensions; and so on.

Yes, it matters. The more you have unearned (unproductive) incomes in an economy, the less there is returns to earned incomes and less wealth. Thats why rents, interest etc. create poverty. All the poverty.

by kjr63 on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 07:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Eh? Are you postulating some sort of supply side effect here, whereby lower profits discourage productive investment? If such effects exist (which is not totally clear from the available data), they are higher-order effects. To low order, investment is determined by current and expected demand. Where that demand comes from doesn't really matter that much.

I can see a plausible effect from finance soaking up talent that would otherwise have gone into engineering or industry. But that effect is, in my opinion, exaggerated - financialisation of the economy is as much a consequence as it is a cause of de-industrialisation.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 04:47:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, you are absolutely right. The issue is all demand side.
by kjr63 on Sat Mar 31st, 2012 at 06:10:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But i have to elaborate a little.

Eh? Are you postulating some sort of supply side effect here, whereby lower profits discourage productive investment? If such effects exist (which is not totally clear from the available data), they are higher-order effects. To low order, investment is determined by current and expected demand. Where that demand comes from doesn't really matter that much.

Naturally the investments follow demand. But why would i.e. rents create demand? Actually Henry George says something that rents don't go into circulation, but to latifundasation. Lords buy more land and in the end rentmonopolies capture all economic surplus. And Marx says, i believe, the same about capital interest. This interest just buys off all capital and monopolises industry.

The same with banking. Intrest just creates more debt, it does not circulate. Finance capitalism is just a "cuckoo" version of capitalism. Banks don't have capital like a capitalist. They lay their eggs to other capital and suck their income stream. So this "bank capital" is the amount of debt.

by kjr63 on Sat Mar 31st, 2012 at 09:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Finance capitalism is just a "cuckoo" version of capitalism. Banks don't have capital like a capitalist. They lay their eggs to other capital and suck their income stream

Describe the operation of "credit" in the "real economy".

So this "bank capital" is the amount of debt.

That is bizarre identification.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 31st, 2012 at 09:28:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Naturally the investments follow demand. But why would i.e. rents create demand?

Why would they not? Bankers have to eat too.

Actually Henry George says something that rents don't go into circulation, but to latifundasation. Lords buy more land and in the end rentmonopolies capture all economic surplus. And Marx says, i believe, the same about capital interest. This interest just buys off all capital and monopolises industry.

That is a property of sufficiently unequal distribution of income, not a property of rents or profits as such. You get similar results when corporate officers are allowed to pay themselves enormous bonuses, even though this money is, in your terminology, "earned."

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Apr 1st, 2012 at 11:03:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ASKOD:
I see here a conflict between an empirical and an idealistic approach.

Indeed! It reminds me of the medieval scholastic Realist-Nominalist debate. And every time Krugman talks about 'stories' it puts teeth on edge. It is as if he is only concerned with indoctrinating undergraduates with useful fairy tales, as if economics is only intended as rhetoric. Sadly, that does seem to be its highest function from the viewpoint of most of those who funded the creation of private universities in the USA.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 12:09:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/minksy-and-methodology-wonkish/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&a mp;seid=auto

Krugman:
What I can do, however, is offer some brief notes on what puzzles me here, and why, I guess, I'll never be a true Minskyite in Keen's sense.

So, first of all, my basic reaction to discussions about What Minsky Really Meant -- and, similarly, to discussions about What Keynes Really Meant -- is, I Don't Care.

Krugman is honest, but some wise man said that: "wise men learn from other people's mistakes."

by kjr63 on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 12:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is becoming clearer that, for Krugman, economic theory is not about analytic power, predictive power or internal consistency, but about rhetorical power in the service of the status quo. He has just been the most presentable of the NCE mavens from 'mainstream economics', in large part because of his social liberalism and willingness to see economics used to provide further deficit spending. Absent a 'road to Damascus' experience I don't expect much change from him.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 12:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is becoming clearer that, for Krugman, economic theory is not about analytic power, predictive power or internal consistency, but about rhetorical power in the service of the status quo.

This is unfair to Krugman. He has actually had a quite remarkable intellectual journey from the 1990s until today, and he is still moving in the right direction, however slowly.

What you are seeing is not an indication that he is a staunch defender of the status quo. It is, rather, an indication of how far down the rabbit hole really goes that it has taken him a ten- or twenty-year journey to get even this far.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 02:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately few have any idea that a rabbit hole even exists in economics and Krugman is seen as the public face of the 'liberal' wing of US mainstream economics by much of the public, yet he is where he is.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 01:11:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As centre-left pundits go, you could do a lot worse than Krugman. His policy recommendations, as distinct from his scholarly analysis, are usually good and frequently excellent.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 04:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That I grant. It has been the disconnect between reasonable policy proposals and his defense to the nonsense that led to the problem that I have found so disturbing. He has become a bulwark against all that needs to be done to change the situation. The fact that he and a few others who are identified and accepted as part of the 'mainstream' propose reasonable policies is, for me, ceasing to be justification for defense of pernicious approaches in their discipline. If the other 95% of the mainstream were as reasonable in their policy recommendations we might have a much less acute crisis, but we would still remain vulnerable to such events due to the economists employing frameworks that blind them to the problems.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 07:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cue Bob the angry flower

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Mar 31st, 2012 at 05:13:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He wrote a preface to the General Theory, and I had a feeling it was about what Keynes really meant....
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 01:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I (and I think many other economists) see it, banks are a clever but somewhat dangerous form of financial intermediary, one that exploits the law of large numbers to offer a better tradeoff between liquidity and returns,

But this is quite comprehensively wrong, even within the neoclassical picture. This is essentially narrative one, when even his fellow neoclassicals have moved beyond that to narrative two in their actual academic work. For that matter, I strongly suspect that Krugman has so as well in his actual academic work, just as I suspect that many of his fellow-travelers who model narrative two are actually conceptually stuck in narrative one.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 01:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But those large numbers did such magic with the whole securitization industry since 2008. In fairness, most of that was done by the shadow banking system and the TBTFs, but that is scant consolation. But the idea that many are stuck conceptually on one variation or another of 'loanable funds' while employing more accurate models in their work would explain a lot of perplexing output.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 06:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Debtwatch: Krugman on (or maybe off) Keen
Paul Krugman has just commented (twice) on my most recent blog about my paper for INET. In one sense, I'm delighted. The Neoclassical Establishment (yes Paul, you're part of the Establishment) has ignored non-Neoclassical researchers like me for decades, so it's good to see engagement rather than wilful (or more probably blind) ignorance of alternative approaches.

...

In another sense, I'm appalled, because Krugman's comments put on display that very ignorance of Neoclassical literature--let alone of alternative economic thought.

For instance, Paul refers to many of the propositions in my blog (it's clear that he hadn't read the paper on which it is based) as "assertions about what is crucial, without much explanation of why these things are crucial."

...

So while I welcome any Neoclassical economist at the forthcoming INET conference taking up Krugman's call ("I hope someone in Berlin presses Keen on all this"), in reality Paul, empirically oriented non-Neoclassical economists like myself are the ones challenging the unsupported assertions of Neoclassical economics--not the other way round.



There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 04:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yanis Varoufakis: Keynesian Legacies neither Europe nor Keynes deserved: A critique of New and ISLM Keynesians in the context of Europe's Crisis (28 March, 2012)
In a previous article, entitled On the Political Economy of Eurozone Bailouts - The curious case of Greece's neoliberals, I took great pleasure in lambasting the internal inconsistency of Europe's (and in particular Greece's) neoliberals. In today's article I cast a critical gaze at the `other camp'; that which consists of self declared Keynesians. The article comprises four sections. After a brief introduction, Section 2 sums up (what I think was) Keynes' central insight. Section 2 then looks at the so-called New Keynesians and their desperate attempt to ingratiate the anti-Keynesian powers-that-be within the economic profession while still retaining something of what Keynes was saying alive. Section 3 is dedicated to the school of thought best represented by Paul Krugman, Brad de Long, and other economists who have played an important role in returning some sanity to the debate initiated by the Crash of 2008. As the reader will discover, my respect for them does not suffice to desist from considering some of their underlying economics not only flawed but also profoundly inconsistent with Keynes. Lastly, Section 4 relates the above discussion to the European Crisis, making the point that the internal inconsistencies of the best and brightest Keynesians have, unwittingly, hampered the search for a rational solution.


There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 28th, 2012 at 09:34:32 AM EST
Krugman says in Minsky and Methodology (wonkish)
So, first of all, my basic reaction to discussions about What Minsky Really Meant -- and, similarly, to discussions about What Keynes Really Meant -- is, I Don't Care. I mean, intellectual history is a fine endeavor. But for working economists the reason to read old books is for insight, not authority; if something Keynes or Minsky said helps crystallize an idea in your mind -- and there's a lot of that in both mens' writing -- that's really good, but if where you take the idea is very different from what the great man said somewhere else in his book, so what? This is economics, not Talmudic scholarship.
Varoufakis argues
The answer is: Because `Keynesianism' had, after Keynes had met his `long run', accepted the preposterous proposition that one can think of the macroeconomy as if it comprised of millions of clones of a single person; a genetically reproduced Robinson Crusoe whose clones think the same thoughts (plus or minus some random error). (Recall the disastrous Samuelsonian interpretation of Keynes.) And why did they make this concession? In order to put Keynes' thought into a closed mathematical model or, at the textbook level, to capture his `thought' in terms of some appealing, easy to explain geometry. To see that this concession destroyed whatever analytical value Keynes had to offer, consider again the little game I presented (in blue) in Section 2. Suppose that the players are clones and they think identical thoughts, plus or minus a random error. Suddenly, the game loses all its interest: The outcome becomes predicable (each will choose 0 and everyone will gain $1000) and the game's subtle point (that it is impossible even for the smartest player to know what to do; the result depending on the average degree of optimism) vanishes. Similarly, the moment Keynes' thought was imprisoned in these mathematical models, populated by telepathic clones of some Robinson Crusoe, Keynes was doomed to oblivion.

...

At that point they latched on to something Keynes had said, misinterpreted it, and used it to concoct versions of their models that simulated some of Keynes' ideas. That `something' that Keynes had said was the famous `inflexibility' of wages. Keynes, it is true, had observed that the price of labour (wages) and some other commodities do not fall during a recession as quickly as economists had expected. One reason was that workers resist wage cuts because their reference point is the wages of their peers and not prices. Based on this observation, New Keynesians introduced into their mathematical models so-called wage rigidities: when some external shock reduced economic activity in the model (external, of course, because these silly models could not explain internally why such a reduction might occur), their Robinson Crusoe clones, for some unexplained by the model reason, would not work for wages below a certain point. Ergo, the New Keynesians concluded with shrieks of pleasure, this explains unemployment during a crisis: wages will not fall sufficiently to restore demand for labour. So, what should happen then? Perhaps, they answered meekly, government must stimulate the economy.

...

The New Keynesians have a great deal to answer for, at least here in Europe. By misunderstanding spectacularly Keynes' point about the inflexibility of certain prices and wages, they have aided and abetted misanthropic, austerian policies that would make Keynes cringe. Since the only way they could squeeze some unemployment out of their models, as part of their equilibria, was to introduce wage rigidities, the obvious conclusion is that, if we want to get rid of the unemployment, we better liquidate these rigidities. Is this not what the troika is doing now in Greece, in Ireland, in Portugal? Is this not the pound of flesh that the ECB demands of Spain and Italy? The fact that some of the leading supporters, and indeed executors, of the current bailout-fiscal-adjustment programs that are eating away at the foundations of Europe today are New Keynesians, is not a coincidence. Their models were ripe for the picking by the powers-that-be in Frankfurt, in Berlin, in Brussels.



There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 29th, 2012 at 01:57:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On debt's centrality to modelling complex economic systems    Edward Harrison    Credit Writedowns

The following video is about modelling economic data. The takeaway for me here is that modelling complex systems is hard to do. The standard approach in mainstream economics is to strip the system down to as simple a form as is possible without stripping out essential layers. The goal is to reduce the apparent complexity of the system in order to ascertain how its key determinants interact. The problem, however, is that this process risks stripping out determinative layers of complexity that render the model useless. If you listen to Bill White in the video from my 2010 post on the origins of the next crisis, you can see this is what he is saying.


I've seen these equations before.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 30th, 2012 at 01:12:18 AM EST
Metatone noted in the Salon the Krugman has another post up defending narrative one (people depost money, banks lend it out).

Banking Mysticism, Continued - NYTimes.com

First of all, any individual bank does, in fact, have to lend out the money it receives in deposits. Bank loan officers can't just issue checks out of thin air; like employees of any financial intermediary, they must buy assets with funds they have on hand. I hope this isn't controversial, although given what usually happens when we discuss banks, I assume that even this proposition will spur outrage.

But the usual claim runs like this: sure, this is true of any individual bank, but the money banks lend just ends up being deposited in other banks, so there is no actual balance-sheet constraint on bank lending, and no reserve constraint worth mentioning either.

That sounds more like it -- but it's also all wrong.

Then he argues as to why narrative two is wrong.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Mar 31st, 2012 at 05:11:11 AM EST
Steve Keen's Debtwatch: Ptolemaic Economics in the Age of Einstein (April 2, 2012(
Why the brief discourse on Astronomy? Because reading what Paul Krugman is saying about banking feels like reading a Ptolemaic Astronomer describing sunrise today as if that's actually what's happening. He is dismissive of the view that banks can "create credit out of thin air"--so dismissive in fact, that anyone unacquainted with the empirical evidence might be fooled into believing that his case is so strongly supported by the facts that it's not even worth the bother of citing the empirical data that backs it up.

...

Firstly, there are similar underlying principles to the DSGE models that now dominate Neoclassical macroeconomics, and as with Ptolemaic Astronomy, these underlying principles clearly fail to describe the real world. They are:

  • All markets are barter systems which are in equilibrium at all times in the absence of exogenous shocks--even during recessions--and after a shock they will rapidly return to equilibrium via instantaneous adjustments to relative prices;
  • The preferences of consumers and the technology employed by firms are the "deep parameters" of the economy, which are unaltered by any policies set by economic policy makers; and
  • Perfect competition is universal, ensuring that the equilibrium described in (1) is socially optimal.
If that were actually the real world, then not only would there not be a crisis now, there would never have been a Great Depression either--and recessions would simply be minor statistically unpredictable but inevitable events when the majority of shocks hitting the economy were negative, and they would rapidly be resolved by adjustments to relative prices (wages included, of course).

...

I can't improve on the comments of Neil Wilson on Krugman's argument here:

Krugman needs to start attending the real world. The latest argument is utter tosh. For there to be a constraint in the real world, you have to have the actual power to stop another entity from doing something.
What Krugman is suggesting is that the Fed has the power to limit the amount of currency in issue. In other words he's suggest that to control the economy the ATMs will be left to run dry and you will be told `no' when you go and try and draw cash at the bank counter.
Sweepstake on how many attoseconds it would take to cause general pandemonium if that every happened. Here in the UK there has been a suggestion that the fuel pumps might be short of fuel if the tanker drivers did decide to go on strike. It has caused complete chaos even though nothing is different this weekend than last. Krugman is beyond grasping at straws now.
And even if the Fed could do that--even if it did attempt to control bank lending by manipulating reserves (something it gave up on doing about 30 years ago)--there are two factors needed to make manipulating reserves a control mechanism over bank lending:
  • Reserves themselves; and
  • A mandated ratio between deposits at banks and reserves
Paul doesn't seem to have caught up with the fact that this mandated ratio no longer exists, for all practical purposes, in the USA and much of the rest of the OECD. Six countries have no reserve requirements whatsoever; the USA still has one, but for household deposits only. Figure 3 shows the actual rules for reserves in the USA--taken from an OECD paper in 2007 (Yueh-Yun June C. O'Brien, 2007). The reserve ratio of 10% only applies to household deposits; corporate deposits have no reserve requirement. And the reserves are required with a 30 day lag after lending has occurred--by which time the deposits created by the lending are percolating through the banking system.


There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 1st, 2012 at 08:03:36 PM EST
That was MY comparison a week or so ago!

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Apr 2nd, 2012 at 02:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Apr 2nd, 2012 at 02:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Krugman blog: Things I Should Not Be Wasting Time On
I see that Scott Fullwiler has what he thinks is a slam-dunk refutation of what I've been saying about banking. Actually, not.

...

Nick Rowe gets to the heart of it: when you push this argument, it always ends up with an appeal to the notion that the central bank will always supply as much monetary base as the markets demand, at a fixed interest rate.

...

So the critics here are mistaking a management technique the Fed uses for convenience -- a management technique that it hasn't always used in the past, and might not use in the future -- as representing some kind of fundamental law about how monetary policy does or doesn't work.



There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 2nd, 2012 at 10:06:50 AM EST
Krugman is referring to Krugman's Flashing Neon Sign (April 1, 2012)
The debate between Paul Krugman and my friend Steve Keen regarding how banks work (see here, here, here, and here) has caused me to revisit an old quote.  Back in the 1990s I would use Krugman's book, Peddling Prosperity (1995), in my intermediate macroeconomics courses since it provides a good overview of what were then contemporary debates in macroeconomic theory as well as Krugman's criticisms of various popular views on macroeconomic policy issues from that era.  One passage near the very end of the book has always remained in the back of my mind; in it, Krugman critiques a popular view that was and still is highly influential regarding productivity and trade policy.  He writes: "So, if you hear someone say something along the lines of `America needs higher productivity so that it can compete in today's global economy,' never mind who he is or how plausible he sounds.  He might as well be wearing a flashing neon sign that reads:  `I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.'" (p. 280; emphasis in original)

In his latest post in this debate (which Keen replied to here), Krugman demonstrates that he has a very good grasp of banking as it is presented in a traditional money and banking textbook.  Unfortunately for him, though, there's virtually nothing in that description of banking that is actually correct.  Instead of a persuasive defense of his own views on banking, his post is in essence his own flashing neon sign where he provides undisputable evidence that "I don't know what I'm talking about."

...

A digression is in order here on the central bank and the payments system.  According to the Fed's data in 2011 payments settled using Fedwire (the Fed's main settlement system) averaged $2.6 trillion per business day, or about 17% of annual GDP each day.  A significant percentage of these payments are themselves settled a still larger dollar volume of transactions on private netting payments systems.  And the US is not unique in this regard, as I explained here (see Table 1), in other countries payments settled on the central bank's books each business day routinely average between a low of about 10% and a high of over 30% of annual nominal GDP.  As the monopoly supplier of reserve balances (since the aggregate quantity can only change via changes to its balance sheet), it is the central bank's obligation to ensure the stability of the national payments system.  All central bank's therefore provide reserve balances to their banking systems on demand at a price of the central bank's central bank's choosing.



There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 2nd, 2012 at 10:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unlearning Economics: The Keen/Krugman Debate: A Summary
Paul Krugman and Steve Keen have been debating endogenous versus exogenous money - as well as some other issues - for the past few days. The debate appears to have drawn to close, so here I offer a summary for those who can't see the wood for the trees.

...

Looking over the debate, I'd score it to Keen - you might expect that, but I genuinely went through periods where I thought he might be wrong. Sadly, Krugman quite clearly moved the goalposts a couple of times, and Rowe didn't make it exactly clear where he stands, even after I asked him. Neither of them engaged properly with Keen's or anyone else's arguments.

I can't help but feel that the orthodox economists were deliberately obfuscating the debate - making it unclear exactly what they advocate, but simultaneously clinging to a core theory and asserting that its critics are attacking a straw man, ignorant of what is `added' at a higher level. I'm forced to wonder if their theories are simply immune to falsification.

The situation has been compared somewhere (which I can't retrieve) to the Cambridge Capital Controversy.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 at 08:57:24 AM EST
Good discussion with Keen and Rowe in this comment thread.

I am not surprised Krugman quit the debate, though it is a pity as they were just getting somewhere. Now, I agree with Keen on the substance, but using Ptolemaic Economics in a description of your debate opponents position is very likely to lead to anger. And anger leads to misunderstandings.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 at 04:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I expect Galileo and Copernicus had the same problem.

But that's heretics for you.

I'm disappointed - but not surprised - by Krugman's rather juvenile responses.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 at 04:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The more apt the comparison the more likely it is to annoy. Metatone put up a link in the Monday OT to a long response by David Graeber in Crooked Timber to the comments on his book , Debt, The First 5,000 Years which had appeared in a 'web seminar'. Part of his response seems relevant to the Krugman-Keen rhetorical debacle, (a debacle on Krugman's part, at least):
DELEGITIMIZATION EFFORTS

....

The contribution of Henry Farrell, Associate Professor of Political Science and International Affairs at George Washington University, to this symposium, entitled "The World Economy is Not A Tribute System," is a perfect case in point.

Farrell's work is a classic example of de-legitimization, by which I mean, it is not written in an attempt to engage an author in a serious debate about issues, but rather, to try to make a case why that author's arguments are undeserving of debate and do not have to be assessed or considered at all. Rather than refute him point by point, which would presumably bore most readers to tears, perhaps it would be more interesting to explore how such a strategy works.

The links between military systems and money creation is of course a major theme of the book; it is only to be expected that I should pursue the matter to the current day. What seems to provoke Farrell is not this, or any outlandish claims I make--because I don't actually claim that the "world economy" is a tribute system, or make any particularly outlandish claims--but more, I suspect, the fact I use provocative language in doing so: words like "empire" and "terror." Mainstream discussions of such issues are riddled with euphemisms and taboo; it's considered acceptable, for instance, to speak of the US as maintaining an "empire" if one approves of such arrangements (if one is say a Bush aide, or Niall Ferguson), but not if one is critical of them; similarly, while those who attack the US or US military can be described as terrorists, the US, with all its bombs and drones and missiles, can never be described as inspiring "terror" in anyone. So not only do I draw connections between military power and what economists like to call "seigniorage" (the power to decide what money is), I had the temerity to say that the US is an imperial power and that US military power does scare a lot of people, and this is one (just one) reason some accede to US-sponsored monetary policies that are not to their economic advantage.

How does a strategy of de-legitimization proceed? Basically, the pattern seems to be this:

  1. start not by addressing the author's argument, but by challenging their authority to make one.

  2. Proceed to either

a. associating him with some other individual or group deemed similarly outside the bounds of respectable expression, and/or
b. ignoring the intellectual tradition he is drawing on entirely, so as to suggest he is an isolated lunatic.

3. Finally, now that the reader has been prepared to expect the worst, present a wildly inaccurate version of the author's argument, twisting it into something no reasonable person could possibly believe, and dismiss it as such.

This seems exactly what happened here, even if through sloth and arrogance. If Krugman emerges diminished from this it is his own doing. He wouldn't even do Keen the courtesy of trying to understand what he was saying.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 at 07:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a lt goes over my head, but i get the impression krugman cannot refute his colleagues' arguments and is backing off, after making his (aloof) position clear.

whether it's because he sincerely believes they're 'not even wrong' and therefore impossible to debate, or because he would rather bow out without really sharing in the discussion to further intellectual curiosity, thereby sparing his theories any further public dissection, or at least retiring them intact before any more nobel pedestal crumbling takes place with his willing participation.

these guys are pushing him out of his comfort zone, he's in reputation damage limitation mode.

it's a pity, if he would publicly convert it would add enormous heft, but would the grey lady look favourably upon such doings? is pride the issue?

the pack is shifting dynamics, krugman has had a mega-visible podium for a while, and while he has been right about many things, he has been asleep at the wheel for the biggest events, and others have better theories now. from his high pulpit he possibly could have averted some of the crisis, or warned more about it, but that ship has sailed.

by walling off from the youngbloods, (who have paid their dues by now) he risks repeating the error and doubling the damage as the economy hits the next iceberg on his watch as pundit in chief. his position looks more and more vulnerable as events proceed, and outlier commentators decried as doomers or hysterics (by the ever so reasonable centre) are gradually perceived by a growing public to have correctly predicted the problems, and the compounding attendant risks, (which are the problem!).

come on paul, let go of the alpha stuff, the situation calls for pooling great minds right now, you're needed on the bridge, less neutered 'neutrality', more fullthroated conscience of a liberal with a media megaphone to match... you got the super hero costume, no phone booth nearby now everyone's gone mobile?

that's the trouble with centrism, the best ideas always emerge at the edges, like permaculture... the very fame you earned by thinking outside the box forms another box around you...

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 at 08:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As one commenter on PK's blog suggested, I can think of a seven letter Yiddish word beginning with 's' and ending with 'k' that describes what PK has been being in this whole one sided 'debate'.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 at 11:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaking of the Old Grey Lady, wiki notes:
The New York Times was acquired by Adolph Ochs, publisher of the Chattanooga Times, in 1896.

I have only recently become aware that J.P. Morgan arranged the financing that enabled Ochs to make the purchase. Morgan was reported to once have asked how many newspapers one would have to control to have control over US public opinion. That number turned out to be something north of 80, if they were the right 80, IIRCC.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 at 11:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who is right? Krugman or Keen or / and 9 Central Bank economists?   April 3, 2012   Edward Fullbrook

The monetary theory debate starring Krugman and Keen currently raging on the Web desperately needs real-world grounding in the context of the guest post by Jesse Frederik that appeared on this blog on 26 January.  The debate is centered on how banks work.

[Restate Keen. Restate Krugman's Banking Mysticism. Quote a number of central bankers. Then my favorite.]

Update (31-3-2012): see also THE OPERATIONAL TARGET OF MONETARY POLICY AND THE RISE AND FALL OF RESERVE POSITION DOCTRINE by Ulrich Bindseil (2004), (PDF) at the time head of liquidity management of the ECB:

   "From today's perspective, one could feel that academic economists unconsciously colluded in their distaste for re-questioning the applicability of macro-economic models on day-to-day implementation of monetary policy, and their lack of willingness to study the actual features of money markets and monetary policy operations. As Goodhart (2001) puts it: "large parts of macro-economics are insufficiently empirical; assumptions are not tested against facts.... In so far as the relevant empirical underpinnings of macro-economics are ignored, undervalued or relatively costly to study, it leaves theory too much at the grasp of fashion, with mathematical elegance and intellectual cleverness being prized above practical relevance." Unfortunately, it needs to be admitted that the list of RPD (Reserve Position Doctrine, MK) inspired papers that contain empirical (econometric) analysis is long."

and:

   It seems also noteworthy that both groups, academic economists and central bankers, showed little interest in studying well-documented historical experience (e.g. Bagehot, 1873, King, 1936, Sayers, 1976). Overall, the 20th century thus seemed to have witnessed in the domain of monetary policy implementation a strange symbiosis between academic economists stuck in reality-detached concepts, and central bankers who were open to such concepts, partially since they allowed to avoid explicit responsibility. Masking responsibility seemed to be of particular interest whenever the central bank's policies were strongly dis-inflationary and thus causing recession and unemployment (in the US in 1919-21 and in 1979-82).



As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 at 08:46:09 PM EST


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