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Austerity Kills.

by r------ Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 03:44:51 AM EST

TB is coming to a country near you.

We talk about pain, suffering, unemployment, falling discretionary income, new classes of people rummaging in the garbage for food, and homelessness. All true, all so painfully true.

But it goes further than this: austerity kills.

It kills in the form of limited access to health care  in the face of cuts to healt spending in Portugal. It kills in the form of suicide among the desperate in Greece, who really haven't yet come to grips with what is befalling them, not unlike workers of the earliest generation of the industrial revolution, and where Dmitris Christoulas, distraught pensioner seeing his access to health care cut and the pension for which had had worked a lifetime ripped out from under him.

Austerity, all in the name of aid from EU institutions and the IMF.

We've been here before. After the the fall of the various Comecon régimes in the 1990's, the IMF was also on the scene providing "development" loans to newly autonomous countries of the former Soviet Union as well numerous countries in eastern and central Europe. "Aid" and technical "advice," but as always with the IMF, with a major string (even a rope) attached: liberalisation, austerity, elimination of as many vital roles of the previously social states as possible.

front-paged by afew


And the results were as conclusive then as they will be now:

The rapid rise in tuberculosis cases in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union is strongly associated with the receipt of loans from the International Monetary Fund, a new study has found.

Critics of the fund have suggested that its financial requirements lead governments to reduce spending on health care to qualify for loans. This, the authors say, helps explain the connection...

The researchers studied health records in 21 countries and found that obtaining an I.M.F. loan was associated with a 13.9 percent increase in new cases of tuberculosis each year, a 13.3 percent increase in the number of people living with the disease and a 16.6 percent increase in the number of tuberculosis deaths...

The lead author, David Stuckler, a research associate at Cambridge University, defended the study against the fund's criticisms, noting that the researchers considered whether increased mortality might have led to more loans rather than the other way around.

Instead, they found that the increase in tuberculosis mortality followed the lending; each 1 percent increase in credit was associated with a 0.9 percent increase in mortality. And when a country left an I.M.F. loan program, mortality rates dropped by an average of 31 percent.

"When you have one correlation, you raise an eyebrow," Mr. Stuckler said. "But when you have more than 20 correlations pointing in the same direction, you start building a strong case for causality."

A decade later, and our elites have learned nothing. Monetary orthodoxy and liquidationism via austerity and unemployment kill. In a word, liberalism kills. It did in the 19th century when the liberals confronted each and every economic downturn with austerity, millions perishing in the process (over a million in the small country of Ireland alone, not to mention the weavers in the UK, the highlanders and other peasants in that country thrown off their land in the great enclosure movement, and on the continent in varying measure, often producing riots and revolution). And it does today.

We are still fighting the battles of the 19th century, notwithstanding those who would suppose otherwise.

As we Europeans pat ourselves on the backs for our championing the rights of man, or the protection of the rights of our minorites, unlike laggard peers such as the United States, we would do well to recall that the vulnerable among us are a minority, and a voiceless one at that, having no effective representation in many if not most of our member states. They are perhaps the most important minority of all for us to protect. And we do a lamentable job. The European ideal, alas, is no longer worth the paper on which it is inscribed.

Display:
same subject a couple of weeks ago.

And a reminder: liberalism shows itself today to be violent. Slow violence, hidden behind a veil of legalism, "consitutionality" and in every day life, the fetishisation of money. But violence it is all the same.

And violences begets violence.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 11:20:18 AM EST
Austerity, all in the name of "aid" from EU institutions and the IMF.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 11:22:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm glad to see you back around.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 07:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a logical development of neoclassism. It won't stop until we reach a some form of feodalistic oligarchy. When monopoly rigths are the most profitable assets and these political privileges are treated like earned incomes, naturally all economy is geared towards feodalism. Political problem is only fixed by a political power, but there is no such thing in sight.
by kjr63 on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 12:23:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno...I'm hearing there are 150.000 people in Marseille for a very large rally. Pointing in the right direction, and at the right time.

I remain cautiously optimistic.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 12:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow Red. You're become truly prolific!

In the case of Ireland the truly scary thing is that the IMF have been a good deal more "progressive" than the ECB and European Commission in that they have supported a (mild) restructuring of Ireland's bank debt and (to a lesser extent) addressing the problems of those in negative equity. We have just been treated to another moralising lecture from an ECB Board member on how we fully deserve the austerity being heaped upon us...and how it will be good for us.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 11:31:25 AM EST
That's a pattern: in Greece also the IMF was the relatively sane, "good" cop to the European institutions' rabid austeritarian line. I think there needs to be an internal European financial Nuremberg after the dust settles down, assuming there is something left standing after the dust settles down...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 06:04:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a simple enough pattern to understand: The IMF is a creature of the US State Department, and the US has no direct interest in the debts in question. Their interest in the European theatre at the moment is therefore to contain and limit the crisis without setting precedents that would encourage their own colonies to default on their debts. Thus, the push for reorganisation under "international" auspices.

The exact same pattern, but with the roles inverted, can be seen in the relative positions of European and American institutions when the prospective austerity victim is an American colony rather than a European one.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 04:42:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
the US has no direct interest in the debts in question.

you mean defaulting on them won't send a ripple effect through the american economy?

or that they run a cost-benefit analysis and realise it's worth throwing a few homegrown plutocrats under the bus to keep petro-dollar denomination? collateral damage.

their interest in destroying the euro... thereby driving more safe-havening in us treasuries, propping up the dollar?

i think the EU attitudes to 'fair' rather than 'free' trade also may have something to do with it, likewise EU propensities not to kowtow swiftly enough to US corporations, cf apple, microsoft, monsanto.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 08:01:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you mean defaulting on them won't send a ripple effect through the american economy?

The operative term in that quote is "direct."

And no, a well managed default will not fuck up anything for the Americans - at least not anything worse than what failing to acknowledge the insolvency will do.

or that they run a cost-benefit analysis and realise it's worth throwing a few homegrown plutocrats under the bus to keep petro-dollar denomination? collateral damage.

 their interest in destroying the euro... thereby driving more safe-havening in us treasuries, propping up the dollar?


The Euro is a dead currency walking already. Doesn't need the Americans' help for that.

And the Americans are the ones who seem least insistent on blowing up Europe over this.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2012 at 12:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
And the Americans are the ones who seem least insistent on blowing up Europe over this.

Quite possibly because the euro's goose is already cooked. And going as far as blowing Europe up would hardly be in America's interests. On the contrary, they seem to be worried Europe might blow itself up.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2012 at 12:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends. If we postulate that the American interest is to maintain a disunited Europe, they should be pushing to preserve the Euro without fixing it. Which also seems consistent with their current position - hardline enough that it does not set precedents that would make the Euro more functional, yet sensible enough that it does not create a string of failed states all along the Northern shore of the Mediterranean.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2012 at 01:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You talk like there's a coherent purposeful uber-mind setting policy for the USA.

How naive.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 01:00:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm having an internal debate on whether this constitutes feeding the troll, but no I don't. I talk like the Treasury and State Department share a coherent policy on the European crisis. Which is not unreasonable to suppose, since the American position on the European crisis has been quite a bit more constant than even the ECBuBa's.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 04:34:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's uncontexted stats like this one that kill me: "In the decade to 2010, "wages per government employee rose by 90 per cent", he said, adding this was almost double most other euro area countries. He noted that among euro area countries only in Greece had public sector pay risen more over that period."

90% increase from what? Is the public sector large? Is this the reason why Ireland is in trouble with debt? etc.

Just throw some stat out there to try to impress people with your knowledge of the public sector.

by Upstate NY on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 06:07:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The public sector, at all times and in all places, is too large.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 10:37:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Public sector must be large because HTH they will employ all those people? People that can't go anywhere else ...and if they are not employed in public sector statistics on unemployment would be catastrophic. Do you really think that private sector can employ that much people? Their intention is to make as much profit as possible, so they are cutting employees where ever they can...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 04:00:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think melo is being ironical: to neoliberal ideologues public sector is always too big as it should not exist.

res humà m'és aliè
by Antoni Jaume on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 04:16:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
s/melo/ARGeezer/

res humà m'és aliè
by Antoni Jaume on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 04:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still using vi (or even ed)? I actually went back to it a few months ago - it's pretty much the only editor that works decently with files in the Gigabytes.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 04:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
every public sector job is a job stolen from the private sector. gvt by CEO is their wet dream.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 08:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course it was double the fucking european average since it started from fraction of the damn average. Moron.

Incidentally, my social circle is of the opinion that he was here specifically to undermine the chances of the treaty referendum being passed.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 10:44:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Always recklessly dangerous when one starts / ends with just one way of looking at an issue numerically.  China emits more GHG than the US -- its now China's fault, since US is now only #2.  Okay, per capita, US is still 3x PRC level -- different conversation?

Percent from what?

Key Irish 'failure', no, was taking over the entire debt load in public name -- truly showing privatizing profit and making risk public.  

-----

Break -- while absolutely 'common sense', wasn't aware of the studied relationship between IMF intervention and worsened medical statistics.  Sad that 'international aid' creates this nature of human suffering.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!

by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 03:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow. Thank you for this diary. Soo eye opening...

Unfortunately, no matter how good it is still, here in Australia, conservative governments are coming in almost every state and seems to me that they will come to power on a federal level in next election, so God help us...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 07:22:16 PM EST
A decade later, and our elites have learned nothing.

People have a tendency not to learn anything about something when they care nothing about it.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 12:42:08 AM EST
Or when their paychecks require that they not learn it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 07:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One can learn hard way and easy way. The way things are going right now they choose to learn hard way. Many lives of ordinary people will be ruined and lost in the process but elite will eventually learn...It's a pity they tend to forget it from one generation to another...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 05:03:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A decade later, and our elites have learned nothing.

On the contrary, they have learned an important lesson. They have learned that they can get away with it.

That lesson may be wrong, but that is the lesson they learned. And by the time someone grabs a Kalashnikov and disabuses them of such misapprehension, the damage will already be done.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 07:56:10 AM EST
The damage is all around us. The only question is how long this will persist.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 02:09:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Austerity Roundup™ is a new Monsanto-inspired financial technology: Kill the weeds, let valuable crops grow.
by das monde on Tue Apr 17th, 2012 at 09:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not only TB is coming.

The gutting of Public Health and Public Safety institutions coupled with insanely stupid uses of antibiotics has led us to the brink of a global medical catastrophe.

Nowadays, about 70 percent of the bacteria that cause infections in hospitals are resistant to at least one of the drugs most commonly used for treatment.

Without Public Health and Safety organizations early detection and treatment of disease is impossible.  This means potential epidemics can no longer be halted before hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands start dying.

Austerians will, eventually, discover bacteria don't respect national or class boundaries and why domestic and international solidarity is more than a fuzzy, feel-good, pie-in-the-sky ideal.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 01:07:57 PM EST
Also, there is a growing glut of dangerous chemicals overflowing the system, causing more disease.

Gutting of the regulatory sector enhances the glut, and precludes serious enough study to determine and monitor risk.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 01:16:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't want to Go There.  

I start throwing things and yelling, which scares the dog.  

:-)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 02:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Austerians will, eventually, discover bacteria don't respect national or class boundaries...

Optimist! I expect them to continue to blame the victims. They will only feel sorry if they, personally, are the victims, and then only for themselves.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 02:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quarantine camps?

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher
by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 02:23:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

If we manage to fuck up antibiotics use so hard that there are multiple multi-resistant strains in circulation, we will obviously have to lock up the people who catch them to contain outbreaks.

The trick here is to not fuck up antibiotics that hard in the first place.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 02:51:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They could build confinement facilities adjacent to the feed lots that are a major source of the resistance.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 10:40:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I did my PhD in drug resistance.

One can argue the other way around: it was public health institutions that are the most responsible for the spread of resistance through highly misguided policies.

Some of these policies might be guided from financial interests, but some are clearly guided from stupid research.

And we are at it again: the main causes for the emergence of CQ resistance in malaria - mass drug administration (MDA) of low dosage are being defended again.

Interestingly MDA is mostly being proposed to please private funders: people that thing that they have god-like powers (in the case eradicate malaria) and will fund eradication research but not control research.

I have been to supposedly top scientific meetings where the keynote speech (sponsored by said private money) reminded me of Nazi/Communist/1984 gatherings.

One can blame the private money, but as my PhD supervisor says: when you see a deluge of money coming in your direction, what are you to do? Reject it, I say (actually my supervisor is better than it might seem here, but his depiction is accurate about the behaviour of malariologists: there is the general belief that eradication is impossible, but people will bark to get the money)

Some researchers are profoundly stupid but I know at least on case where she said to me: I know this work will have negative impact in control, but I get payed to do this. This is, in my book, akin to genocide.

I think this debate does not belong here, but one thing I say: what I have seen during the last 5 years in public health policy had a massive impact in my perception of public health authorities (especially at the global level - WTO). It also had a profound impact on my belief in scientific institutions. And it was not positive.

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 04:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hate to say it, but the extended medical profession is a great case study of how large companies can subvert science repeatedly and systemically.

I hate to say it because it's really hard to fix without fixing the society that the large companies are rooted in first.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 05:09:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually the same reasoning applies to poverty disease control and eradication: You cannot control/eliminate/eradicate if you do not have a environment conductive to that: Try eliminate whatever-disease when there is a war going on. Or when people simply have other issues at hand like getting food for the day.

You first have to fix society at large, before you can do some things.

In any case the whole resistance issue poses some very interesting moral questions:

  1. Delay treatment now to (maybe) save the efficacy later?

  2. Should we risk mass treatment (to eradicate) incurring the risk of spread of resistance if we fail?

I am mostly interested in point 2: It is a case where excess optimism can be deadly.
by cagatacos on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 05:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah... there are even researchers proposing under-treatment (not me, I published against it), in this case another moral question arises:

Can we risk treating a person insufficiently (and thus risk her health) to delay the spread of resistance?

This would be though questions even in a sane environment: without financial interests and with intelligent people.

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 05:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The corollary is obvious.

If you think of financials station as a decision-making process, and if you examine the claim that only financialisation can create 'progress', the objective reality is that financialisation makes a species stupid.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 05:57:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
('financialisation' - damn you, iPhone autocorrect)
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 06:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wouldn't under-treatment promote resistance? Or do you mean not using certain antibiotics at all?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 10:45:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wouldn't under-treatment promote resistance?

That is the orthodox view (to which I fully subscribe).

In the case of malaria there is a general consensus that under-treatment (in the 50s, Thai-Cambodian border) was the cause for resistance emergence (actually not under-treatment, but presumptive treatment - chloroquine (CQ) in small doses in salt). This was a policy recommended by the WHO (I traced the first suggestion to a paper written in 1953).

There are people trying to introduce treatment with doses below clearance. Their rationale is based on mouse models. Problem is: mouse and lab models have a tradition of not being transportable to human field reality. For instance (and this is interesting in economic terms):

Lab models predicted that CQ resistance would be maintained because CQ-resistant parasite multiply faster than CQ-sensitive parasites. We now know that this is not true (CQ-resistance falls if CQ if removed). NOTE THE UNDERLYING (wrong in this case) REASONING: something that grows faster is more fit that something that grows slower (growth, growth, growth baby). It never crossed peoples minds that faster growth might mean, for instance, killing the host before transmission is possible.

But it is interesting to see that the "growth is always good" meme goes well beyond economics....

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 12:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But significant portions of Multiply Drug Resistant bacteria are generated in the watersheds downstream from factory farms and the intended exposure to antibiotics was made to animals to increase production of meat and of revenue to pharma. But bacterial plasmids are well capable of transferring resistance between bacteria populations. And while odor alone would ward of most from 'nature' in the vicinity of the facility, creeks and streams carry the resistance through parks, towns and cities.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 10:52:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Minor: Just to note that Plasmodium is not a bacteria, therefore there should be no horizontal gene transfer (HGT).

Bacteria, virus and protozoans might require very different approaches and it is not clear that one can transfer reasoning from one to the other.

HGT is probably the cause for multi-resistant bacteria. In malaria it is probably recombination of resistant genotypes (save one exception, through mitochondrial mutation)

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 12:15:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was not referring to malaria, but rather to drug resistance in bacteria, which has become a major problem in hospitals and other health care facilities. Whole watersheds from Texas and Oklahoma up through Nebraska have been shown to have antibiotic resistant bacteria as the predominant genotype, This has been the case for more than ten years and probably for almost as many years as big pharma has been pushing antibiotics to feed lot operators and poultry farms.

Denying antibiotics to humans on account of the danger of building resistance seems bogus when industry is allowed to turn entire landscapes anti-biotic resistant. It is just that it is easier to let medical professionals harangue their patients than to confront big pharma and eleminate a practice that is sold as adding 1-3% growth to meat animals. If I get some chickens I will have my choice of medicated or non-medicated feed.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 03:48:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Food for thought (Portuguese situation):

  1. Common cold is routinely treated with antibiotics (and I don't mean only self-prescription)

  2. Helicobacter pylori is not treated

[The UK seems to do the opposite, at least it seems. Interestingly antibiotic use seems high in both places but for completely different reasons]

Not giving an opinion here... just food for thought, really.

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 06:35:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Amoxicillin is prescribed in Spain like candy. It's probably entirely useless by now, due to resistance.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 07:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
cagatacos:
Actually the same reasoning applies to poverty disease control and eradication: You cannot control/eliminate/eradicate if you do not have a environment conductive to that: Try eliminate whatever-disease when there is a war going on. Or when people simply have other issues at hand like getting food for the day.

You first have to fix society at large, before you can do some things.

So the eradication of European malaria was possible due to a high level of organisation in Europe?

I am reminded of the US based organisations that tried to fix things in China in the 20ies and 30ies - agriculture, energy, stopping female feet binding - only to run into problems relating to there being a civil war going on.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 03:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My personal view (and my knowledge of eradication in Europe is limited) is what you suggest: it worked mostly because society was stable. People would argue that insecticide resistance was non-existent at that time and that helped a lot. DDT spaying et al. But take this with a grain of salt.

Interestingly I submitted a grant proposal to study the genetic basis of insecticide resistance (trying to move from parasites to vectors).

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 06:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually the same reasoning applies to poverty disease control and eradication: You cannot control/eliminate/eradicate if you do not have a environment conductive to that: Try eliminate whatever-disease when there is a war going on. Or when people simply have other issues at hand like getting food for the day.
------
I totally agree with this. And yes it is poverty that definitely makes people ill but it is also "culture" or so called "way of life". It's bad enough what we are actually eating and drinking and with "fast food culture" it is just way worse...We already see statistics that next generation will live shorter than previous one...Add stress that they are living with each and every day and you don't need to ask why...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 05:16:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent, excellent.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sun Apr 15th, 2012 at 07:28:08 AM EST
"Capital must protect itself in every possible way, both by combination and legislation. Debts must be collected, mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible.
"When, through process of law, the common people lose their homes, they will become more docile and more easily governed through the strong arm of the government applied by a central power of wealth under leading financiers.
"These truths are well known among our principal men, who are now engaged in forming an imperialism to govern the world. By dividing the voter through the political party system, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting for questions of no importance.
"It is thus, by discrete action, we can secure for ourselves that which has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished."

- Montagu Norman, Governor of The Bank Of England, addressing the United States Bankers' Association, NYC 1924
NB: This quotation was reprinted in the Idaho Leader, USA, on 26th August 1924, and has been read into the Australian Federal Hansard twice: by John Evans MP, in 1926, and by MD Cowan MP, in the session of 1930-31.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I ACTUALLY SPENT A FEW HOURS TRYING TO CONFIRM THE EXISTENCE OF THIS QUOTE AS IT WAS SUPPOSEDLY
PUBLISHED IN THE IDAHO TELEGRAPH....I COULDNT FIND ANYTING WHICH WAS QUITE FRUSTRATING UNTIL TONIGHT WHEN I SEARCHED AN ARCHIVE OF US NEWSPAPERS AND FOUND THAT IT  APPEARED IN MULTIPLE NEWSPAPERS AROUND THE COUNTRY....JUST 3 YEARS BEFORE THE 1929 STOCK MARKET CRASH....THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT AS TO WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN THE WORLD - WAKE UP PEOPLE !!!

HERE IS THE LINK (ON PAGE 4 SEARCH FOR 'CAPITAL')
<a href="http://newspaperarchive.com/the-lethbridge-herald/1926-06-15/page-4?tag=capital+must+protect&rtserp=articles/capital-must-protect?pd=15&py=1926&pm=06&psb=relavance">http://newspaperarchive.com/the-lethbridge-herald/1926-06-15/page-4?tag=capital+must+protect&rts erp=articles/capital-must-protect?pd=15&py=1926&pm=06&psb=relavance</a>

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by blackwolf on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:10:23 AM EST
Welcome to ET, blackwolf.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:18:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
AS OUR SERVANTS THEIR RIGHTS ARE THOSE WHICH WE GRANT THEM
by blackwolf on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:44:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder whether that comment belongs in the parallel thread Don't know much about history by melo...

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:19:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See discussion of this quote here. You seem to have turned up a reference to this quote much earlier than we were aware of, but it's still a secondary source (a Progressive reading it into the record), I'm afraid.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:25:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So it was here I read that it was not from Idaho Leader :)

But this places the quote in the 1920ies with a source and that makes it a lot more likely to be true. The source is Bankers Magazine of August 1920 (I think, and that is with a lot of eye-straining).

ThatBritGuy:

archive.org has selected back issues of Bankers Magazine - which is the kind of periodical you'd expect a statement like this to appear in.

Unfortunately the latest issue available online is dated 1922.

Someone with access to a good university library could probably find the volumes for 1924.

Alternatively, anyone with a few hundred dollars to spare can buy them from an antiquarian book seller.

So anyone with access to a good university library and up to the task of checking Bankers Magazine of August 1920?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:41:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Found it!

TBG actually said that the versions until 1922 was scanned in, so here you go Bankers magazine, August 1920, page 217, quoting in full a quote from a pamphlet claiming to quote Bankers magazien from 1892. The article then goes on to refute the claim.

And looking at it, and comparing it to the style of Bankers Magazine, it is obvious that the language is not that of Bankers Magazine. Bankers Magazine would not claim that capital must defend itself, but it does argue that European debts must be repayed before investments can be done, that wealth taxes hinders the growth of production and that labor unions are far to strong. So  in the interest of the common good it is important that debts are repayed, wealth taxes are repealed and labor unions are met with equal strength. All in the interest of the common good.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 09:05:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've learnt something today.

  1. Before August 1920 some radical created a pamhplet claiming to quote Banksters Magazine of 1892, saying outright what Bankers Magazine said between the lines. When Bankers Magazine quoted it in 1920 to refute it, the source shifted to that article. (Gutsy move.) Then it resurfaced in 1983 and went online in 1996.

  2. Going by Bankers Magazine of 1920, the 1% propaganda in the 1920ies is the same as it is now, including how downtrodden and misunderstood they are.


Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 09:22:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, I once read a 19th century editorial bemoaning how striking for higher wages would simply lead to inflation which would undermine the value of the wage gain. I found it an unremarkable claim at the time, since it was so trivially false and obviously self-serving.

Sadly, I lost the source. It was in one of my high school history books, but I cannot recall which one.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 09:44:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was part of a debate in one of the Internationals. That was an argument (by a unionist) that Karl Marx himself was compelled to demolish. I believe the episode is in one of Varoufakis' books. I'll look it up.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 09:48:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, this particular editorial was in an anti-labour newspaper, so I doubt that it's the same reference.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 04:29:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I reposted a cartoon some while ago, of the history of anti-labor, trivially false and obviously self-serving claims in the US alone...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 05:25:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This time the elusive John Evans (who was claimed to have "read the Montagu Norman quote" into the Hansard of the Australian Parliament, but, on checking, did not exist as a Member of the Australian Parliament) turns up for real. He was in fact a Progressive member of the Canadian House of Commons in 1926.

The Lethbridge Herald says this:

Speaking recently In the House of Commons at Ottawa Mr Evans one of the Progressive members read the following enlightening extract from the Bankers magazine of August Capital must protect Itself in every possible manner through com- bination and legislation Debt must be collected bonds and mortgages must be foreclosed as rapidly as possible When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes they will be more tract able and more easily governed through the influence of the strong arm of the government applied by central power of wealth under the control of leading financiers A people without homes will not quarrel with their leader.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 04:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but not the elusive one.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
<not here>
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2012 at 01:07:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I BELIEVE WHAT I SEE - WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS UP TO YOU DEAR BROTHER / SISTER
by blackwolf on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your keyboard called. It wants you to know that its CAPSLOCK key is crying.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 08:10:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ITS STUCK ACTUALLY
by blackwolf on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 08:42:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You see what you believe.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 08:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good digging, I have previously come across this quote and somebody digging up that it was not in "Idaho Leader, USA, on 26th August 1924".

So Lethbridge Herald, USA, on 15th June 1926. Page 4, column 4, article "Political forum" subsection "Labour Party" (if anybody wants to confirm it, crappy picture varning in the free version). Just before the quote there is a source to the quote that I can not really read. Assuming the pay-version has better picture can you read it?

Not sure why the link broke, but this one should work: Page 4, The Lethbridge Herald, June 15, 1926: NewspaperARCHIVE.com



Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Apr 16th, 2012 at 07:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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