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End of the state as we knew it?

by Metatone Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 02:00:04 AM EST

Over at Flip Chart Fairy Tales is an interesting post. I don't know what to make of it, so I thought - diary time...

The end of the state as we knew it | Flip Chart Fairy Tales

Two reports about the cost of ageing and its fiscal impact came out last week. The IMF's Financial Stability Report concluded that the cost of longevity has been consistently underestimated. By 2050, it says, if people are living for even three years longer than current models predict, it would add 50 percent to the estimated costs of ageing. In short, then, governments and pension funds may have got their sums quite seriously wrong. The IMF calculates that, by 2050, the costs of ageing, including healthcare, welfare spending and pensions, will increase by 5.8 percent of GDP in the advanced economies.

The OECD's report on fiscal consolidation, also out last week, came up with a very similar figure. If current levels of benefits and care are to be maintained, it estimated an increase in age-related spending of 6 percent of GDP by 2050. These figures don't differ that much from the ones I pulled together from various sources last year. The consensus there was around 4 percent of GDP by 2030, so add another twenty years and 6 percent looks like a reasonable guess. It's impossible to predict so far ahead with any accuracy but the general consensus seems to be that ageing populations are going to cost a hell of a lot.

The problem, as both reports point out, is that the economies with the highest percentage of oldies are also the ones with the highest public debt levels. The increased costs of ageing, says the IMF could, by 2050, see the UK's debt rising to 130 percent of GDP, the US and Germany's to 150 percent and Japan's to 300 percent!

front-paged by afew


Anyone have some thoughts on the accuracy of this prediction?

And following on from that, if it is a reasonable prediction, what this means for progressives?

Display:
2050, that's 40 years from now.

In that time supplies of oil are going to be, if not low, then certainly exorbitantly expensive. Barring an unpredictable technological breakthrough, the following will be long gone;-

i) cheap pesticides
ii) cheap fertilizers
iii) cheap pesticides

So, the 20th century food revolution will be history and that means food will become expensive, there will be less of it and it will be, pound for pound, less nutritious. It doesn't take a genious to see that starvation will begin to impact us. That will limit the number of people suriving

iv) cheap fuel for transportation

Essentially the "supermarket" paradigm of food distribution for the last 40 years is toast. You''ll have to eat local or not at all. This will be problematic in urban areas where bulk transport hubs for food distribution have been removed in the rush to road.

the suburb and the mega city are both D.O.A by mid C21.

v)cheap antibiotics

The 21st century medical model is history. We blew away the ability to have routine safe operations, to protect ourselves from minor stomach and blood illnesses.

In short. Progressives won't have to worry about paying for all the old people in 2050, cos there won't be as many to worry about.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 10:21:12 AM EST
Yeah...there will not be oldies but also there will not be young...they do not have kids nowadays. So western civilisation will practically disappear...right?
Also those who did not follow our " progress" are making babies as we speak (this is also helped with their religion)and their oldies are dying regularly pretty young ( in our terms) due to the lack of healthcare, medication and proper food...right?
So they will prevail...No wonder that they are fighting us now not willing to follow in our footsteps.
And it's probably only just...
And as heartless as we became we may come to point to organise some kind of genocide...either trough war all by other means...
What a world we are leaving to our next generation...no wonder young people very often say that they "do not want to bring children to the world like this"...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 10:54:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cheap fertilizer is easy, as we know how to make as much ammonia (NH3) as we want from wind power at prices not different from today's.

Pesticides are high value products and the cost of feedstock is not necessarily the most important item.

Transport - we know how to organize that differently - it's a tougher nut to crack to make it happen, but it's not possible.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 10:59:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have a rather large vegetable garden right now. Large enough that we dabble a bit in market gardening. Because of the prices, it does not particularly make sense as a business.

If food prices were to double (or wages were to fall 50%) it would make sense.

We use fixed beds. It is in some ways ideal for small spaces - no tilling (except when we dig up root vegetables). Adding chickens (which we are thinking of doing) should increase productivity by creating chicken tractors.

We are using hoop houses (very small green houses) to grow early crops on a portion of our garden. We are Canadian 5b or I believe 4b US for climate zones with excellent snow fall coverage.

We are currently selling spinach grown under a hoop house planted in the fall. Our last frost date is May 15. We expect to sell spinach perhaps to as late as June 15. We will then be planting our main crop.

We are picking leaves and packaging them and earning slightly below - minimum wage with options for labour saving devices.

First harvest 11.5 kg or .01268 ton (short or US)

area (including pathways) 360 sq feet planted 126 sq feet pathways Acres: .01116

# of pickings - probably 8 - using 5-9 we get yields of: 5.7 - 10.2 tons per acre - comparing to commercial plantings of spinach 8-10 ton/acre from what I could quickly find on the web. (someone may wish to check my math)

Now this particular example uses oil products - plastic sheet over the beds in particular. Without them, perhaps the harvest would be 1/10. It would be partially possible to substitute straight cloth I think for a slightly increased yield. Cold frames with glass would be problematic - a lot more work, but would almost certainly increase yield beyond our 5.7 - 10.2 tons per acre. There are other hidden sources of oil products, but these are easily replaceable with wood - at an increased cost and slightly decreased convenience.

In the regular growing season I would suspect that we compete with the yield of large scale commercial farms as well.

I don't see decreased yields from killing oil based large farms. I think that the yields farms get now should be sustainable even on the back yard scale.

Paris, before the automobile fed itself and shipped food to London. (Eliot Colman - 4 season gardening). Cuba is repeating the experiment with organoponico's. Havana has a population of 2M. It has a series of vegetable markets throughout the city.

The problem is to keep soil fertility up. I don't know if composting is going to provide enough nutrients. Paris provided its local farming industry with horse manure - enough that composting manure heated green houses for all season vegetables and super fertile soil. If I remember right it was in the order of 100 tons per acre. I am sure that Cuba's organoponico's have nothing like this level of fertilizer.

We really don't have a good handle on maintaining soil fertility yet. We are performing a 4 year crop rotation. Perhaps some day we may need to increase that to 5 with 1 year plowing green manure under.

Pesticides are also highly overrated in necessity. At one time people sifted out the moths from their flour.

Insects happen. We trap slugs and snails using beer, and we eat damaged leaves. Small worms live in or cauliflower. Life is tough. In any case most come out if you soak in salt water before cooking - the rest come out when you cook. Think of it as added protein. We hand pick Colorado potato Beatles and asparagus beetles. We experimented with predatory nematodes for cut worms - but cardboard collars (any other substance would work as well) work to mostly keep them out of new peppers, melons and tomatoes. With insects, when things get really tough we have been known to break down and spray with dish-washing detergent, but mostly we have learned to live with insects and their damage.

One additional advantage of smaller agriculture would probably be the implementation of land races - crops evolved to grow in the particular climate and soil of the farm, with genetic diversity kept deliberately high to handle fluctuations without wiping out entire harvests. We are considering implementing a land race for spinach, but we are too small for using it as a general strategy. Rather than shipping melons from where they grow best, we would have to grow melons locally that can handle the climate. Right now local melons can not compete with melons from 4,000 km away, but that does not mean that you can't have them locally.

And another advantage would be perfectly edible crops that do not store or transport well. Locally, Claytonia (Miner's Lettuce) is the first winter green available with the possible exception of water cress. It just doesn't have a long shelf life. In the fruit section we are trying to grow Paw Paws 1/2 zone outside of their northern range. The problem with Paw Paws is again their shelf life.

I don't see starvation from lack of oil, and the need to grow food locally. I do see a change in the pricing of food and what is available, when it is available and possibly its "quality". You may be converting your city backyard to agriculture - either personally or through an organization that rents your yard for food. (It is already happening.) In the winter fresh food will not be as plentiful. Things like potatoes, leaks, turnips, rutabegas, celerac, squash (some of which can store for up to 2 years) and so forth will become much more common. Fresh greens like claytonia may become much more common. Dried vegetables like tomatoes will also be more common. Fresh zucchini? Perhaps for the 1%. But you don't have to go hungry or be malnourished on a local diet even in Canada 5b, you just have to eat differently. Even a city of 2M should be able to maintain itself from local food. Space will have to be utilized differently. Our obsession with roads will have to change. The changing of infrastructure will hurt - alot, but it can be done, and people should not have to starve - though, as with Cuba, the transition time may be deadly. In Cuba it represented one meal a day lost.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Apr 21st, 2012 at 11:14:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pesticides will always be cheap, because they really don't use much in the way of mineral or fossil resources.  Fertilizers are another story, but the rapidly expanding technology to mine NPK (nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium) from human and animal dung, as well as the increasing efficiency, biological and mechanical, of fertilizer use (about 1% reduction per year for last couple of decades) is likely to lengthen the amount of cheap fertilizers available for at least a few hundred more years. (Mined resources of P and K are expected to be gone in 100 years, without accounting for technological advances.)

I just don't see the eating local, expensive food model really taking off except for elite niche consumers who dig that.  Scarcity pressures are much more likely to expand the global supply chains of food than keep things local because it makes more efficient use of technologies in different parts of the world, even if fuel costs increase.

by santiago on Wed Apr 25th, 2012 at 12:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
on European tribune: The new private state (May 3rd, 2011)
So, what kinds of implicit guarantees are Eurozone governments providing that they shouldn't be in the business of providing? I can think of half a dozen off the top of my head:
  • deposit insurance for banks
  • granting limited liability to businesses
  • disaster relief
  • access to health care
  • access to education
  • access to legal redress
  • public safety
All of these are implicit guarantees that every citizen in Europe expects to enjoy relatively free of charge. These are large contingent liabilities of the state. Any and all of them could not be undertaken by a private entity that didn't charge hefty fees up front and wasn't adequately capitalised in case a particularly large claim presented itself.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 10:28:23 AM EST
And adding financial sector rent to social insurance, health care, etc. will compound the problems, if it is allowed to continue, as seems likely.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 09:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The highest art of warfare or power realization is apparently formless, undefined, deceptive aggression. The state is already just a facade controlled by real deciders. Apparently they seek so much power that soon they won't be bothered with appearances soon.

Anyway, we are back to long forgotten frontiers:

21st century chain gangs [Salon.com]

In these years, the system of leasing out convicts to private enterprise was reborn.  This was a perverse triumph for the law of supply and demand in an era infatuated with the charms of the free market.  On the supply side, the U.S. holds captive 25 percent of all the prisoners on the planet: 2.3 million people.  It has the highest incarceration rate in the world as well, a figure that began skyrocketing in 1980 as Ronald Reagan became president.  As for the demand for labor, since the 1970s American industrial corporations have found it increasingly unprofitable to invest in domestic production.  Instead, they have sought out the hundreds of millions of people abroad who are willing to, or can be pressed into, working for far less than American workers.

As a consequence, those back home -- disproportionately African-American workers -- who found themselves living in economic exile, scrabbling to get by,  began showing up in similarly disproportionate numbers in the country's rapidly expanding prison archipelago. It didn't take long for corporate America to come to view this as another potential foreign country, full of cheap and subservient labor -- and better yet, close by.

What began in the 1970s as an end run around the laws prohibiting convict leasing by private interests has now become an industrial sector in its own right, employing more people than any Fortune 500 corporation and operating in 37 states.  

by das monde on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 07:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 08:37:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IMF direct: Seven Billion Reasons to Worry: the Financial Impact of Living Longer (April 11, 2012 By S. Erik Oppers)
Everyone wants at some point to stop working and enjoy retirement.  In these uncertain economic times, most people worry about their pension. Now take your worries and multiply those several billion times. This is the scale of the pension problem. And the problem is likely bigger still: although living longer, healthier lives is a good thing, how do you afford retirement if you will live even longer than previously thought?

This so-called longevity risk, as discussed in the IMF's Global Financial Stability Report has serious implications for global financial and fiscal stability, and needs to be addressed now.

Here's the issue: governments have done their analysis of aging largely based on best guesses of population developments. These developments include further drops in fertility and some further increase in longevity. The trouble is that in the past, longevity has been consistently and substantially underestimated. We all live much longer now than had been expected 30, 20, and even just 10 years ago. So there is a good chance people will live longer than we expect now. We call this longevity risk--the risk we all live longer than anticipated.



guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 10:30:21 AM EST


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 10:30:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Economics: the dismal "science" of silly people

FIFY

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 05:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Shut up, you reason-to-worry.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 05:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And here I was going to invite you to the local Tamale Harvest Festival when the wonderful colorful natives (us) deck themselves wonderful, traditional, colorful costumes to parade out to the Tamale orchards while singing the traditional celebratory songs.

But now, I'm not.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 08:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Economics as brainwashing - and they give so-regarded "Nobel" prizes for that.

As well, the education system indoctrinates, while the media contributes is building economics as modern voodoo ritual.

by das monde on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 07:31:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They (economists) are payed to scare us so that we just go with whatever they want to do to us people. And right now they are about to strip us of any rights we had in the past. For next generation terms like "pensions" "universal healthcare" "state funded education" will be the ancient words...I am so sorry that I have to witness this shit in my life...I may not live long enough to see how our grandchildren (for those lucky / or not/ to have them) will have to fight for those rights that we used to have and pay with their blood and lives...huhhhh

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 11:09:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, one of the problems with pension funds, if I'm not mistaken the single largest speculative category in the world, would be to legislate to reduce the rake off of the money managers et al(at present simply impossible).   Effectively the hundreds of millions of prospective pensioners don't see an actual return on their investment. Correct me if I'm off, but on a return of 13% per year already a scandal in itself, only 6,7% trickles down to the little guy who put up his hard cash to be managed by someone else. Further, the little guy has the burden of all the risk and really doesn't have any security that he's goiing to get what was hard sold to him. According to the OECD in 2008 pension funds lost 5 trillion dollars. Those defaults hit the little ones, not the elite that has long since walked off with their staggering profits off your money.

So all this shit out of the IMF seems to me to be beside the point. It seems an advert for private pension funds. Give us whatever savings you have left so we can shaft you some more. Maybe when there's nothing left of you the elite can harvest the trace elements in your body.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 11:39:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that misses the most important problem with pension funds, namely that there is no good reason for them to exist.

Pensions is an obvious public service, which of course should be funded out of the general budget.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 07:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, they should be government-funded.

All those services mentioned above are not free. They come from a bewildering variety of taxes.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 08:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing is ever free...We are talking about "free" healthcare, education, pensions, age care...It's not free at all. It is funded with YOUR own money...money that you or your parents or even grandparents earned and that money was taken from you/them as a tax money supposedly to fund all those "free" things. And where they are going to be when you need them? Are they going to say "We can't afford those "free" things anymore but you should work until you die and still pay taxes so that we can pay politicians more, give money to the rich trough new government " projects" (and pay you minimal wage to accomplish them trough your work), so that we can continue to bailout bankers and their bonuses...etc..."
Where is the outrage? It is spiling on to the streets slowly...but politicians are not listening to the roaring...They think they can suppress it by force...Not good times in front of us...
Very popular rock group (from Bosnia) before those Balkans wars of 90s had a very good song that went : " Yugoslavia, get on your feet and sing so that everyone can hear you...those who do not hear your song song will listen to the storm later"...and we all know what happened ...That's how I feel things will progress everywhere...Storms on the horizon...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 09:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - End of the state as we knew it?
And following on from that, if it is a reasonable prediction, what this means for progressives?

Rename national debt and call it national equity.

"The increased costs of ageing, says the IMF could, by 2050, see the UK's debt equity rising to 130 percent of GDP, the US and Germany's to 150 percent and Japan's to 300 percent!"

So more money is printed then is collected in taxes. Is this a problem? Not really, all these societies has unemployed that can be employed doing useful things (like taking care of the elderly). Money is printed, creating new services and thus does not even create inflation.

There is lot of real problems coming, but lack of money is an entirely man-made one.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 02:59:37 PM EST
For a chance to have that work it is probably best to hang on to your sovereignty, especially your own fiat currency. And be as self sufficient as possible.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 09:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is not lack of money. There is far too much privately created money based on nothing.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 11:41:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyone have some thoughts on the accuracy of this prediction?

Yes: none to speak of.

Idiot is using a statistical straight-line projection to predict a point in the trajectory of a Complex, iterative, system subject to sensitivity to initial conditions.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Apr 19th, 2012 at 05:33:35 PM EST
Shooting butterflies in a tornado with a slingshot, you say?

Sounds like the present systems bandied about by the postnosticators.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 08:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Shooting butterflies in a tornado with a slingshot, you say?
-----------
Yes.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 09:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Importance here is that one of the things killing the "centre left" is that even if they understand enough to reject "austerity now" - they have no argument against this kind of thing...

The social model is dead this way.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 02:09:38 AM EST
Importance here is that one of the things killing the "centre left" is that even if they understand enough to reject "austerity now" - they have no argument against this kind of thing..
----------
They should have...but they are either corrupted (in many ways) or afraid to speak or...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 09:58:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Concern troll is concerned. Even if their projections were science rather than propaganda devices (and this being the IMF and OECD I'd give odds of 2:1 against that), all their conclusions are gold standard idiocy which has been demolished a million times here and elsewhere.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 04:42:44 AM EST
We've been able to reduce working hours aver the past 50 years by a much bigger proportion.

There's nothing wrong with spending more of our resources on old people when there are more old people alive...

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 11:00:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially when there is also an unemployment problem!

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 01:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obviously...Pushing oldies to work until they drop dead is going to make many young people unemployed...The coin always has two sides you know...And what bothers me is that they do not understand how those young unemployed people with all that unused energy will actually at some point either become criminals or will start to riot...this will cost state a lot more...
The other thing that they do not understand is that if they deprive people of decent living they will start to brake laws in masses (black/grey economy, avoiding to pay taxes etc.) ...and this to the point that state will not have means to control it...They do not know what they are playing with...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 10:10:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
6% of GDP is hardly a doomsday scenario.  And it's a 40-year projection, which makes it unreliable to me.  The assumptions needed to make such a projection could be close, but I doubt it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 06:30:29 AM EST
6 per cent over forty years is 1.5 per mille compounding.

So approximately the total factor productivity growth the world enjoyed in pre-industrial times.

It's more than a rounding error, but not by much.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 06:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyone have some thoughts on the accuracy of this prediction?

Let me guess, the proposed solution is that we must have more austerity, and we must have it sooner?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 07:20:31 AM EST
If pensions are a real problem, there is a simple solution. Make retirement voluntary. In my experience many pensioners are forced to retire. Perhaps 50% of them would go on working, if they would be allowed to. But retirement is obligatory at certain age.
by kjr63 on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 07:29:23 AM EST
Lipstick on a pig. The way we organise society is  entirely wrong headed.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 07:39:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a bit harsh for a society that merely mortgages its future, shits in its own bed and eats its young.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin
by Crazy Horse on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 08:08:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way we organise society is  entirely wrong headed.

Agreed, but I would prefer to say 'the way society has been organized', as it has already been done and not by 'we' but by current and former elites and in their interests, naturally.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 01:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, we are shiningly spotless. We have not looted, grabbed, stomped or evaded accounts.

We're the best generation! We all are.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Fri Apr 20th, 2012 at 08:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It remains our responsibility to deal with the existing situation and the activities of our societies taint us all as if by 'original sin'.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Apr 21st, 2012 at 01:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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