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Piece of …

by Colman Wed May 30th, 2012 at 06:23:05 AM EST

My brother - who’s occasionally active here - rang me last night to ask me if I had any clue which way to vote in the referendum that’s happening here tomorrow. I answered no, but that I was trying to write a piece in order to clarify my thoughts and figure it out: the whole debate has been making me profoundly uncomfortable - I’ll write about that later.

I had a plan to write in some detail about the pros and cons of the treaty, the political context and so on. A brief bit of thinking aloud with Migeru about the situation clarified it for me:

(It’s Bill Hicks, of course it’s not safe for work.)

The treaty allows EU institutions to sue member states if they don’t carry out insane policies. No. Screw the political consequences, to Hell with the nonsense spouted by the campaigns. It’s bad for the EU and therefore bad for Ireland.


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Don't hand weapons to crazy people.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 06:27:03 AM EST
I have a rule of thumb for judging EU treaties, which has served pretty well for the last couple of treaties:

The side with the most specific arguments is usually right.

If the "yes" side trots out vague platitudes about "European integration," "securing our place at the table" and "the good will of our European partners," then it means that they have no real arguments and have to fall back on "Bruxelles, right or wrong."

If the "no" side trots out vague platitudes about "national sovereignty," "eurocrats" and "distant Bruxelles," then it means that they have no real arguments and have to fall back on "my country, right or wrong."

"[Political entity], right or wrong," is bullshit demagoguery, not a basis for rational policymaking.

In this case, you have a "yes" side that pretty much universally acknowledges that the treaty is fake tits on a zombie useless as policy, but fall back on ideological commitment to increased European integration.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 06:55:28 AM EST
The no side arguments are also shit. "No to property taxes", "No to water charges".
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 06:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This referendum has made me deeply uncomfortable. During past EU-referendum campaigns I've become accustomed to dismissing the insane naysayers within the Irish anti-EU lobby, while at the same time being dissapointed by the simplistic platitudes coming from the "Yes" side.

Cycling into work this morning I passed Sinn Féin and Libertas posters and wished there were more of them.
Declan Ganley took part in a TV debate last week and I found myself agreeing with pretty much everything he had to say on the economy, thinking perhaps I only differ with his ideas on EU governance.

Shudder.

Taking it as given that the treaty text is itself a crock of shit, I've been stuck in a loop, weighing up the political ramifications of a Yes and No vote, and whether either could lead to an effective solution to the credit crisis.

In my ever-optimistic world, I hold dear to the thought that a No vote could force the issue, and lead to sweeping reform.

I'm pretty sure however that a "No" vote will see little more than op-eds with titles such as "What now for Ireland's Euro Experiment?", and at best, the attachment of a random Declaration so that the referendum can be held again.

That then leads me to a "Yes", to at least give Merkel something to sell to the German electorate prior to the considered introduction of effective reform of the Eurozone. However, at this stage, I don't think ECOFIN could be farther from "considered" and "effective", and so I'm left back at the start.

Senator Imelda Henry called to my door last night while I was putting the children to bed. She smiled, and proferred soundbites about Stability and Good Housekeeping. I asked how long it will be until the imbalances across Eurozone countries are dealt with. Without skipping a beat, she told me that this referendum isn't about other countries, it is about Ireland and whether we want growth.

Piece of shit.

by ectoraige on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 07:43:11 AM EST


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 08:57:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see your nice Merkel poster and raise you a memorable Trichet quote: Trichet urges strengthening of monetary union
"Federation by exception seems to me not only necessary to make sure we have a solid Economic and Monetary Union, but it might also fit with the very nature of Europe in the long run. I don't think we will have a big [centralised] EU budget," Trichet said in a speech before the Peterson Institute of International Economics in Washington.

"It is a quantum leap of governance, which I trust is necessary for the next step of European integration," he said.

...

The next step would be to take a country into receivership when its political leaders or its parliament cannot implement sound budgetary policies approved by the EU. The action would have democratic accountability if it were approved by the European Council of EU heads of states and the elected European Parliament, he said.

The idea earned a warm reception from leading economists and prominent Europeans attending the session.

"It is a very radical proposal, couched as a modest step," said Richard Cooper, international economist at Harvard.

I have seen the quote "If parliaments don't give us what we want we will annul them" attributed to Trichet but not by "credible" sources :)

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 04:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
when you have a political class whose idea of a good policy is to screw the electorate in order to maintain their good standing with the financier class, I think you should probably vote in the way wich most inconveniences them.

Even if they will insist again and again on another referendum, it is your self interest to repeatedly tell them to go to hell. and ventually vote the buggers out and get a government that gives a shit if their voters can get a meal the day after

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 10:53:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fatal flaw there is the assumption that the rest of the electorate have an attention span greater than that of a gerbil.
by ectoraige on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 11:56:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No.

If it was a good treaty I'd vote for it. It's a piece of shit.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 12:14:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Context is everything: Hollande and his band of the less-insane are in power in France, Greece is about to elect and anti-austerity government, or at least a very powerful anti-austerity opposition, Spain is in the ropes, anti-austerity parties are on the rise, in Ireland itself, Holland, Italy.

If there is a front positioning itself for a showdown with the austerians, a Yes vote will be a defeat for all of them and a victory for what Zizek calls ironically "Europe with Asian values".

This referendum is IMHO about the whole of the EU and whether the possibility of social Europe remains alive, it is not just about Ireland...



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 12:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
talos:
anti-austerity parties are on the rise, in Ireland itself, Holland, Italy.

No sir! No anti-austerity parties on the rise in Holland, oh no.

They are, somewhat, on the rise, in the Netherlands. Socialist Party (very much anti) is the largest in the most recent poll, followed by Wilders (anti but also shudder), next come the marketistas who are in decline while also Labour (anti now but perennially confused) is losing.

Please continue.

by Nomad on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 12:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah I see, sorry about that!... I was referring to to the SP mainly, and I thought that Labor is pirouetting itself to the anti-camp?

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 12:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is a nice word for Labour's current shift, yes. Of course they're also spinning themselves into a pr-ditch, because they are also hammering at how pro-EU they are. Try explaining that in a soundbite.

But yes, SP has been advancing steadily in the polls - most likely to Labour's detriment.

by Nomad on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 06:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Austerity will tear Europe apart. Being anti-austerity is the only pro-Europe position."

There. 14 words. And it's even true.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu May 31st, 2012 at 08:42:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, what about the opposite case, where a state insists on its own bad policies and the EU wants to try to enforce a sensible law?

One obvious example from this side of the pond would be the anti-segregation laws, where the feds came in and forced Alabama and the others to follow national policy. Lots of other examples as well...

At some point the question of whether or not to have a full-blown federal Europe is going to actually have to be confronted.

by asdf on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 11:05:47 AM EST
That wouldn't be a piece of shit would it? In fact, that's how we've generally advanced human rights in Ireland: somebody sues under EU human rights law or whatever.

I'm largely suggesting that we should vote against this treaty because it's bad for Europe.

Also, just because the US is a federal state does not necessarily mean that that is the ideal end state for all supranational arrangements.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 12:12:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"just because the US is a federal state does not necessarily mean that that is the ideal end state for all supranational arrangements"

That's certainly true. But the loose confederation of the EU seems to be suffering many of the same problems that the pre-federated U.S. of A. suffered. The question is, what actually IS the best way to run a collection of states?

by asdf on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 04:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Founding Fathers were handed down our plans for a federal state from Jesus Himself.[1]  Of course it's the ideal state for all supranational arrangements.

[1]The Articles of Confederation were just trolling.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 07:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fortunately, we don't have to worry about rejecting enforcement of good policy, because this treaty is sufficiently narrow in scope and sufficiently partisan in its policy prescriptions to ensure that it can only ever be used to enforce insane policy.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed May 30th, 2012 at 02:10:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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