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Why is Ireland not revolting?

by Colman Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 08:58:29 AM EST

I think there’s some surprise at how unwilling the Irish are to rock the boat at the moment: we elected a reliably responsible and serious government, we voted to allow the ratification of the idiotic Fiscal Treaty and we haven’t had even one firing squad despite pretty severe GDP and GNP contraction and soaring unemployment. I can’t explain it directly, since that would involve an awful lot of mind-reading, so let me present a couple of vignettes that may help to explain it.


  • C is starting proper school next week and part of the presentation to parents we were at last week was about the details of the planned rebuilding of the school - a nice new modern building big enough to house all 36 classes rather than the mix of older buildings and pre-fabricated classrooms they currently occupy. It’s expected to happen in the next few years even in the current environment.
  • One acquaintance who moved to a small town on the west coast a few years ago now has a job. His wife works in the public service, has suffered from the pay cuts, but things could be worse.
  • Another is in the process of buying a nice house at a sensible multiple of his income. Should be moving in in a few weeks, just in time for the new baby. Mortgage lending isn’t easy to get, but they were a pretty ideal case and eventually managed to get approval.
  • Business is improving for me and for many the other self-employed people I know - including people like architects who had no work at all a few years ago. One friend who used to have a practice with half a dozen staff had let all of them go and was surviving on whatever scraps of work he could scare up. He’s rehired one or two staff now. Someone I know who runs a dog grooming place in a middle working class area is run off her feet. (I do not understand this.)
  • A neighbour, let go from his retail management job, has a new contract doing change management for a charity.
  • Unemployment rates have pretty much bottomed out. It feels like things aren’t getting worse any more. Cuts in public spending are preventing them getting better, but they’re not really getting worse.
  • Someone I know who has set up as an accounting practice seems to be doing ok on getting clients even though she has hardly started. She doesn’t have enough to make a living yet, but she’s currently run off her feet.
  • The girls down the stables seem to be able to get part-time jobs when they want them.
  • Helen and I were in a nice pub when she was over, which was a recreation of a traditional Dublin pub: no TV, no music, traditional decor and good beers. It was busy enough on a quiet night for pubs, populated largely by either young legal types or tech workers. There’s a big sector of international businesses that employ the middle and upper working class that are almost unaffected by local conditions.

A lot of the people above will be feeling vulnerable - even if business does pick-up or a new business is doing relatively well it may not be enough to pay the mortgage or replace the savings that have been funding you during the worse times.

I would guess, as well, that inequality is soaring - the people I know are inevitably at least middle working class. The girls at the stables are probably displacing lower working class people from the part-time retail and restaurant jobs. I believe that the lower working classes are getting screwed into the ground - they tend to rely more on public services to start with, their incomes are more likely to be dependent on welfare spending and they are more likely to be trying to make a living from retail and less skilled service jobs.

However, for the middle and upper working classes and for the middle class, things are not that bad right now, compared to the last few years. You don't revolt when you're just busy keeping your head above water and hoping that a storm doesn't descend upon you.

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Other people's mileage may differ, of course.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 09:02:27 AM EST
My generalised experience would mirror yours. Some people and businesses are run off their feet. Others are just barely surviving, but managing to do so, Price competition is very keen and you can often make do with less by shopping around and negotiating. People don't want to rock the boat because they see people in Greece doing even worse and there is at least some hope of a stabilisation, if not recovery in Ireland.

There have been a lot of job/investment announcements of late (c. 11,000 jobs so far this year?) although obviously the closure of small businesses is less hyped. We are at a tipping point - if the EU goes seriously belly up we are all screwed - but given an even playing pitch most people seem to think we can survive and recover while being less confident about the EU. I sense a small reorientation away from the EU and back to the UK, USA and of course, Australia/Canada as a model for where to look for growth/opportunities.

But the macro stuff could still screw us and the banks and the EU crisis are at the top of that list

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 09:31:41 AM EST
A feeling that we might just get away with it ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 09:48:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we could get the banking monkey off our backs...

The "we" being largely the middle classes. The working and unemployed classes are screwed and they no it. Hence the much larger NO vote in working class areas.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 10:00:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting that we wrote two complementary stories in parallel - you asking "why is Ireland not revolting" and me writing The Manufacturing of consent without having seen yours beforehand.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 10:03:31 AM EST
Processing last week differently.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 10:12:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While there is a lot of underemployment and such, most people live a binary experience:

Either have a full time job OR are unemployed.

10% unemployment does not mean that everybody is working at 90% capacity, it mostly means that 90% of the population is pulling through and 10% are suffering.

Due to cultural short-termism and self-centeredness of our current societies I have noticed that most people ignore the crisis until the very moment it hits them. Not a second before.

Your friends will become weary of the status quo when their income drops to 0, not before. Or when their standard of living takes a beating (compared to peers - comparison is important)

by cagatacos on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 10:26:00 AM EST
While 14% unemployment is generally regarded as a crisis, it still means 86% have a job - or are hanging on to one by their fingernails - leading to a conservative bias. However social solidarity is still strong enough for people to be unhappy with this situation and thus the Government does not enjoy 86% support. What is really pernicious is when Governments seek to play off one against the other - "blaming" the unemployed for their fecklessness and the high taxes they have to levy on the employed to pay for unemployment benefit. This is the standard tactics for Governments seeking re-election at a time of high unemployment: make the 86% fear/resent the 14% in an effort to garner most of their votes.

Fortunately, so far, this tactic is not being tried in Ireland. The depredations of the banks and the complicity of much of the elite make it far to obvious that the unemployed are not primarlly at fault. Most of them were working a few years ago when unemployment stood at 4% after al...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 10:38:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is a LOT more insidious than this. People remember the bad times, and in comparison, perhaps it is not so bad now for a lot of people. The difference is that in the 1970s, say, maybe your father had a lousy job and complained a lot, but even with the low pay, his union had negotiated a retirement package that allowed your mom to live after he keeled over from his heart attack.

Nowadays, people have lousy jobs, and think they are in the same position as your father. But they aren't, because they don't have the retirement setup that he had. This is a huge change, and it is easy for the corporations to hide because nobody really thinks clearly about retirement until it is upon them. So the comparison is not between x% having a job in 1970 and x% having a job now, it's a comparison between y% having a decent retirement plan in 1970 and 0.1x% having such a plan now.

by asdf on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:10:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
0.1y%
by asdf on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The question in 1970 was if you had an indoor toilet or not ...

I'm not exaggerating by that much.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:14:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
or a TV or central heating or a car. Mind you, you got a (shared) bath every week whether you needed it or not...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:30:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, so we have trade an indoor toilet for 40 years of retirement income.
by asdf on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:33:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The odds of enjoying 40 years of retirement income were minimal, especially if you were shitting in a barn.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:38:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was 15.0 years for females at age 65 in Ireland in 1970 per this
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/duplicatecsomedia/newmedia/releasespublications/documents/birthsdm/curren t/irishlife.pdf

So maybe I was exaggerating a bit...  :-)

by asdf on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the Orkneys they had them much longer ago than that. I remember the guide at Skara Brae being very proud of their (probable) indoor toilets with sewage, compared with the U.K. thousands of years later....
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember visiting relatives in the west in the 1970s who either still had an outside toilet or no proper toilet at all. I think it was pretty much gone from Dublin by that stage. Pretty much.

I mean, they probably have proper plumbing in out-of-the-way places like Wicklow now.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:47:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mind your manners! Wicklow is the centre of the Universe and all your water comes from here. (Try flushing yours without water!

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 01:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Finns treasure their PuuCees or outdoor privies. The national pastime of weekends at the cottage is incomplete without that early morning when there's a summer mist and you're sitting on a hole in a plank in a box, with the door open, looking out over the Baltic reading a 1974 copy of Suomen Kuvalehti, with a slight hangover, wondering when that adder is coming out to sunbathe on exactly the spot where the path goes back to the cottage.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 02:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's an article about how some people volunteered to build new outhouses on a Native American reservation...

http://www.gazette.com/sections/article/gallery/?pic=1&id=139793&db=colgazette

by asdf on Thu Jun 7th, 2012 at 12:02:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another reason Ireland is not revolting is that social welfare benefits are (still) a lot higher than they were in the 1970s.  See also my diary An infrastructure of dissent for why the Irish aren't revolting more.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also historical experience - the over 40s still remember the 80s. This is much, much, much better.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 10:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I may report on how things are in the U.S., where we have been living this "Anglo-Saxon" economic dream for some time now...

"Someone I know who runs a dog grooming place in a middle working class area is run off her feet. (I do not understand this.)" It's because if you don't have the money for something like a college education or a decent house or a retirement plan, you blow it on small, meaningless things. In the third world, people dress properly, because clothing is something within grasp and shows status, while in the west we dress like bums because we're spending our money on McMansions or SUVs. In my (low socioeconomic) neighborhood, everybody has at least one spoiled dog.

Also note that "run off your feet," if it means "very busy," is an artifact of how the system works now. The binary choice is between unemployment and a full time job, except that "full time job" means 60 hours of trying to keep your head above water. It's cheaper for the employer to hire two people at 60 hours per week than three people at 40 hours. The 40 hour week now viewed as an historical oddity.

by asdf on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:04:10 AM EST
She is self-employed. 40 hour week never applied.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:06:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A probable explanation.

What I don't understand is when dog grooming became a thing here.

I suspect I should blame celebrity reality show things, but I don't know.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 11:07:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I don't understand is when dog grooming became a thing here.

I suspect I should blame celebrity reality show things, but I don't know.

When you figure it out, let me know, because it may help me figure it out too.  "Dog grooming" to me involves a back yard, dog shampoo and a hose.  Granted, we had labradors when I was growing up, and they're fairly low-maintenance as far as grooming goes, but still.

They also have assorted specialty shops -- including entirely-standalone bakeries -- for dog owners who've completely lost their shit.  And dog daycare centers.  By the time I'd seen the second dog daycare center, I was rooting for Apophis to go ahead and wipe us out.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Shampoo?

Dog daycare I can understand, in that if you work long hours all day and have a single dog, leaving them at home isn't very nice. It's also good for getting dogs used to dealing with each other.

On the other hand, having one dog wasn't the best bit of planning you ever did. Get two or none.

As for specialist bakeries ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, I'm not talking about daycare as in "boarding your dog for the day at the vet's office" or something like that.  I'm talking Ritz-Carlton-type stuff.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:11:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by asdf on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:20:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a little more elaborate than the pictures I've seen of ones here - and those pictures were from the friend who was fostering our St Bernard and leaves her one there when she has to spend the day down country.

You do not want a bored St Bernard in your life.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It looks like they have lots of job openings. If you want to wash dogs all day long. And cats.

Which is what you were talking about in the first place I guess...

by asdf on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guard:  The peasants are revolting.
King:   They certainly are.
by tjbuff (timhess@adelphia.net) on Tue Jun 5th, 2012 at 03:34:23 PM EST


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