Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.

So I come to ET looking for the Pope diary, and.

by jjellin Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 04:49:00 PM EST

There isn't one!  Really?  I realize this isn't much of a diary, but I thought I'd point that out.   [update] Okay, I see there is a discussion started in the newsroom . . . don't know how to link to it. [HERE and HERE (afew)] And I will delete this diary as soon as I figure out how.

So this is the Pope diary - afew


What does it mean?  Is it because of church scandals piling up, or does it have something to do with the relationship of the Vatican to the Italian state?  

Apparently it rarely happens, so is this a big deal?

Display:
that the Pope has resigned.  Why would he do that?
by jjellin on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 10:12:43 AM EST



"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Feb 13th, 2013 at 05:33:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I only learned about this afternoon. It surprised me. I wouldn't start off with speculation of all sorts as it's too early and always futile.

The simplest explanation is that he's aged and tired and would rather retire. The Vatican has been rocked by many internal scandals recently that involved people that he trusted very much. The Vatican has always been noted for its mysterious court intrigues. One might imagine that these intrigues have taxed and deluded this Pope.  

His announcement has caught the cardinals by surprise. With the possibility of the Pope's death in the near future, given his age, the backroom manouevering was already underway. This move has thrown a wrench into the works.

Now that the tacit pact between the Poles and the Germans has been honoured- a story that dates back to before WWII- the Church can perhaps elect a youngster. Certainly, Wojtyla and Ratzinger nominated very conservative cardinals and essentially blocked any movement to modernize the Church, so one cannot expect an innovative Pope. We will have to see how much smoke will come out black to get an idea if there will be a transitional old Pope, maybe an Italian, so that the cardinals can jockey for the one after, or if they'll surprise us with a young Pope. Things do not always go as planned as Pope John XXIII was one of those compromises: in his few years he attempted to change the Church by shaking up its foundations. Every Pope after has been under the sign of the Counter-reformation.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 11:51:20 AM EST
the new Pope then?  That could be very interesting.  

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.  I don't know anything about a possible pre-WWII deal with the Poles & Germans, but you seem to be saying that the next one will be Italian.  Interesting, too, that even the Cardinals were surprised.

by jjellin on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 12:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There have only been five or six Popes who resigned in 2000 years, many forced to resign. This pope just wants to go into reclusion.

He really has no say in who will be the next Pope. That's a conclave decision of 2/3 of the cardinals which should be about 117 total this time. By choosing the moment Ratzinger can only favour power shifts indirectly. Perhaps his move could favour a senior cardinal who may be approaching the threshold of non-eligibility of 80 or 81 years.

I would watch out for Sodano. He has no business becoming Pope.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 12:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd forgotten about Sodano. Typing his name in Google gives, among other promising possibilities,

Cardinal Sodano scandal
Cardinal Sodano gay
Cardinal Sodano mason

What odds is Paddy Power giving? Might be worth a punt, as an insider/dark horse.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 03:33:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the context in a Google search:
Cardinal Angelo Sodano (Italy), 150/1
Can't tell you when this is from, as Paddypower, along with all other gambling sites, is blocked in Italy.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 03:39:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's also blocked from where I'm sitting, at work. But another google gives him at 40/1, so perhaps the odds are shortening...

Dean of the college of cardinals, and all that. Horse trading. Doping? Nobbling?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 03:46:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Paddy Power has Sodano at 150/1. Same odds for the Irish cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor (and several others). Bono at 1000/1.

French cardinal and archbishop of Lyon (ie N° 1 French prelate) Philippe Barbarin is at 33/1. Barbarin drew attention to himself last September with these remarks on same-sex marriage:

Le mariage homosexuel ouvrirait la voie à la polygamie et à l'inceste, selon le cardinal Barbarin Same-sex marriage would open the door to polygamy and incest, according to Cardinal Barbarin
Après, ça a des quantités de conséquences qui sont innombrables. Après, ils vont vouloir faire des couples à trois ou à quatre. Après, un jour peut-être, l'interdiction de l'inceste tombera"After that, it has consequences which are innumerable. After that, they will want to have couples with three or four participants. After, one day, perhaps, the prohibition of incest will disappear."

At least he didn't mention bestiality.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 04:28:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After due reflection I would exclude Sodano. It would be suicide to elect him. I would also exclude Scola in Milano for similar reasons. far too reactionary.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 05:55:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
after a grim viewing of 'mea maxima culpa - silence in the house of god' last night, one would think sodano to be even worse than ratzi.

which is peolly why he's got the shortest odds...

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 07:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bono now equal with Father Dougal Maguire (Craggy Island) at 1000/1

My favourite Sinéad O'Connor isn't even listed. Humbug.


-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 07:59:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reportedly Ratzinger will retire to Castelgandolfo when he steps down and won't take part in the conclave electing the next Pope.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 03:48:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He watched his predecessors drawn out dying closely and concluded that it wasn't a dignified spectacle for the church. Even with a popular pope and he has to know he isn't popular.

So now he goes as long he can still stand on his on feet. Thinkin this is the best move for the church.

by IM on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 12:30:17 PM EST
Thanks for posting. Looks like no one was around to diary this. I was offline all day.

So comment away, folks, this is the Pope diary.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 02:11:24 PM EST
so a man who appears to have been neck deep n the cover up of clerical abuse of children has gone, presumably to be replaced by another.

And I should care how ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 02:18:13 PM EST
He probably just wants to spend more time with his celibacy.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 06:54:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does the pope resign in the woods?

What's missing today is leadership. Or, more probably, I simply have no respect for almost any of the so-called leaders around the world. One assumes that a leader should have not only a passionate relationship with all democratic human rights, but also have a skill in communicating that passion, and ensuring that all decisions are shared.

But then again, I'm as biased in my view of gestaltic reality structures as anyone else.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 02:39:43 PM EST
What about coins? Can the Vatican rip off coin collectors by issuing a second series of "Sede Vacante", or a they required to reuse the last design?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 03:29:27 PM EST


"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 04:41:03 PM EST
Postet this in the OT, but I think it fits better here.

Apparently this picture was taken tonight at the Vatican.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 04:45:33 PM EST
Yes. Another omen was when Ratzinger released a dove recently and it was immediately attacked by a seagull. The dove flew back into the Pope's room for safety.

Doves and other winged animals have an important role in Christian mythology and iconography for they not only bring messages and decide fate but also are rumoured to have inseminated a young virgin through her ear, a rather unorthodox approach.

Another omen making the rounds is that when Ratz pulled off the stunt of reciting the mass in Latin with his back to the faithful, the papal ring fell off his hand.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I read that the Vaticanleaks scandal really shook him up.

http://www.20minutes.fr/monde/1098551-benoit-xvi-pape-transition-ebranle-scandales

in French

by stevesim on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Slightly less than eighteen years ago, I accidentally walked anti-clockwise right around the Vatican. I was only looking for the way in; it seems there is only one.

Recollecting from distant Scottish folklore that walking widdershins around the Kirk is a sure way to summon the Devil, I was vaguely worried about the geopolitical or cosmological implications of my accidental gesture.

And sure enough... the very next day, Italy elected a left-wing government.

Just saying. Might be worth a try.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 04:03:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The line to get in to the museum always goes counter-clockwise.....
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 04:06:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose we could speculate about scandals coming, but is anything that might surface really any worse than what we already know and suspect?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:02:50 PM EST
His brother is making allusions that he is not only physically suffering from old age. That sounds as if he has been diagnosed with dementia, and wants to save his own dignity and that of his office by stepping out of the public.

So, probably no scandal except the many scandals we already know about, and which he survived.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Scandals which he should not survive, nor should his church.

The man is scum, and a complete loss of dignity would be well-deserved.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm. Do you advocate a loss of dignity for every morally reprehensible character or do you draw a line somewhere?
by Katrin on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:26:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think characters who support the execution of gay people are more than deserving.  How about you?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Losing power, definitely. But losing dignity, no. Everyone is entitled to dignity, just for the sake of the shared humanity of all of us. It isn't something one has to earn, it is an entitlement, a human right.
by Katrin on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rights can be forfeited due to one's actions.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Human rights cannot. You have them because you are a human.
by Katrin on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 06:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you tried discussing this with Mr Ratzinger?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 06:55:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why on earth should I? He is on the other side of the fence, he is my political opponent. I don't expect right-wingers to respect my or any other human's rights, that goes without saying. It's one of the reasons why I fight them.

I am asking such questions to people who might be my allies, to leftists. Left politics needn't produce Stalins, but we all know it can. What are your suggestions to avoid landing on a path that leads to illiberty and inhumanity?

by Katrin on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 07:36:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because it's not reality-based to pretend something is a human right when so few people act as if it is, or when there are individuals like Mr Ratzinger who hide behind something they call 'religion' and use it as a professional excuse to humiliate, exploit, and abuse others for personal status and financial profit.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 08:15:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So for you human rights must be earned? We need human rights for those who would never manage to earn them! I don't see why it should be an argument that "so few people" see human dignity as a human right: I am often in a minority position with my views. I still think I am right.
by Katrin on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 09:19:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, in this era rights are something you have to claim actively from people who default to disrespecting them.

Since religions have a very poor record on what you call human rights, I don't think they're a particularly good way to give people the power to do that.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:13:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait, YOU are advocating to disrespect them. In what way are you different from those in power in this era? Why should you have power if you are not prepared to respect human rights?

By the way, religion doesn't play a role here: we are talking about a person's right to dignity, not a religion's.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:47:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This argument is a classic example of the real vs. the ideal. It is necessary to acknowledge both, IMHO.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 12:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If our values are supposed to be "reality-based", I guess we should all behave like Wall Street sharks.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 09:32:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's perfectly reality-based to make a distinction between what might be possible and what's actually happening now.

It's not reality-based to pretend that what's actually happening now isn't - you know - actually happening.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have a look at what you're actually responding to :

Everyone is entitled to dignity, just for the sake of the shared humanity of all of us.

This, you allege, is currently impossible.

You see the misunderstanding?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:09:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not at all. Unless I've missed something, we don't live in paradise.

One day we might, but pretending we do already - and if we don't, we should - makes no sense to me as a rational world view.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:15:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny that you say ,,paradise" with its religious connotation.

Human rights are not something we can only demand in paradise. We can and must demand them here and now and we recognise those unfit to power by their rejection of human rights.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess after the revolution, everyone will get respect, whether they want it or not.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 11:01:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you have not yet realised the complete collapse of leadership in large and small organizations across the globe. Or rather, I should say, the phase shift in the perception of leadership.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The collapse of leadership surely only is a symptom of paradigms collapsing, isn't it?
by Katrin on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 06:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cultural paradigms can be remarkably persistent.  People have been throwing "coins" into "wishing wells" since the Neolithic.  The reason (excuse?) for doing so has changed but the practice remains.  The position of Pontiff as the Man In Charge of Religion goes back to the 3rd Century BCE.  Again, it's changed, the Pope is no longer terrifically interested in the squawking, or not, of geese but the office, and name, keeps on trucking.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 06:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ratzinger probably embodies the problems of his Church perfectly. He is stuck somewhere in the 1960's, before authority was questioned by the student movement (which he disliked immensely, of course). His priority in handling the scandals was to avoid questioning the authority of the institutions because he thought that would be damaging. Incidentally he chose the most damaging behaviour for the institutions he wanted to protect, but he is probably unable to get that. Fifty years ago it would have worked.
by Katrin on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 07:57:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He is stuck somewhere in the 1960's 1460s, before authority was questioned...

Fixed it for ya...

by asdf on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 11:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My catholic relatives say this is exciting for a number of reasons. Popes never retire, so that is in itself pretty radical. There are plenty of people (on both sides of various arguments) mad at him, and they all hope that the new Pope will move the church's position in the direction they favor. With many scandals on the books, its always possible that one might be positioned to blow up at any moment--which is probably not why he's retiring, but it could happen in the aftermath or possible turmoil that could take place now in the selection process.
by asdf on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 05:59:15 PM EST
asdf:
Popes never retire

Well, it hadn't happened since 1415; I suppose this means "never" for Americans :-)

Ans yes, the most likely cause is that he's getting older and frail (Occam's razor etc...)

by Bernard on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 08:28:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And then there's his namesake Benedikt IXwho not only resigned, but tried to come back afterwards.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 08:34:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At least he resigned and then made a come-back or two. Imagined if he had quit the usual way before making his come-back.

Pope Benedict IX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the only man ever to have sold the papacy.

I think there is a [citation needed] missing there.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 08:50:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to this we won't have Popes to kick around much longer.

Downside is we're all gonna die and burn in Hell for all Eternity.

:-)

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 06:24:07 PM EST
"much longer" s/b "any more".

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 06:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cool.
Hadn't heard of anti-popes. Is that like a Mecha Pope?

-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 08:06:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When two popes meets on the pages of history and only one is left standing, the loser is then for all eternity declared an anti-pope.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 08:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No no no.

Anti-popery is determined retrospectively, on the basis of "the winner gets to write the history books".

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 09:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant that, but I wanted to get the imagery of particle/anti-particle dualism into it as well. Pity we can't run power plants on religious controversies.

(Gnomes: please toogle my misplaced an similar comment downthreads.)

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 09:52:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, during the early 15th century there were three. How about ortho-Pope, meta-Pope and para-Pope?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 09:58:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So if a pope and an anti-pope collide, do you get photons?


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:37:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you get flying feces.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 12:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought they were called cherubs.

-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 12:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
or Lammasu, as the phenomenon was called in its first known incarnation.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 12:42:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Copied from Bibel!
Ratzinger loses pope title.

The small text on the book reads "childhood stories" which I think is a nice touch.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 08:24:58 PM EST


"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 08:50:42 PM EST
reminds me of a woman I knew in the mid-90s who used to say things like child molestation and priests raping children were "normal," and happen all the time, which seemed like a weird thing to say at the time.  But she always seemed a bit unhinged, or close to it, so I never wanted to really press her on anything.  It wasn't until about 10 years later that I finally got what she was trying to say.  I think she must have had some very sad stories to tell.
by jjellin on Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 10:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
poor woman, the church thought themselves TBTF and now they find out there is blowback after all

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 09:48:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are a lot of psychologically damaged ex-nuns out there...not hard to find at all...
by asdf on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 11:59:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pope Benedict Resigns And Stuns The World

"Last time, there was a lot of speculation that it was time for the first black Pope. What Pope Benedict has done in recent years is to pack the ranks of the Vatican with lots of Europeans."

The last Pope to resign was Pope Gregory XII, who stepped down in 1415 in a deal to end the Great Western Schism among competing papal claimants.

There are several Papal contenders but no obvious front-runner to take over, which was also the case when Pope Benedict was elected Pontiff in 2005 after the death of Pope John Paul II.

Canadian Cardinal Marc Ouellet has been installed as favourite for the job.



"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 07:28:10 AM EST
Daily Kos: Opus Dei in Charge - For Now

All bets are off, however, if the International Criminal Court at The Hague agrees to act on the case brought before it by the Church's victims and charges Pope Benedict and other Vatican officials with crimes against humanity. This is something even Opus Dei can't overcome.

One way or the other, however, this is the end of the line for the Vatican and its men around the world. The current regime can no longer sustain itself under the pretense of being a religious organization. The pact with the devil made by Pope John Paul II to ally with the global plutocracy in return for Polish freedom from communism is reaching its inevitable demise.



"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 07:49:50 AM EST
Dear Zell "Christocrat" Miller: Be Careful What You Wish For « The Open Tabernacle: Here Comes Everybody

Rarely is there even a hint as to how much money is controlled by the bishops and/or the Vatican. Last week, supporters of a Philippine reproductive health bill which would make contraception available and denounced by the bishops, "challenged the Catholic Church to release to the poor" some of the $381 million in stocks owned by just the Archdiocese of Manila.  "If the [Roman Catholic Church] truly cares for life, why isn't it at the forefront of fighting infant and neonatal mortality? Why isn't it taking care of children of parents who are so poor that their children's education, health and well-being are sacrificed? What is the Roman Catholic Church doing with its billions? Why does it continue to ask for donations from the poor? Isn't this selfish?'' asked Elizabeth Angsioco, national chairwoman of the Democratic Socialist Women of the Philippines.

That $381 million is just stocks owned by only one Philippine diocese and does not include all the assets owned by the Church in the entire country whose GDP is only 2% of the US GDP.  In addition to the bishops, there are hundreds of religious orders of priests, brothers and nuns with their own investment portfolios. Also obedient to the pope are lay associations like the American Knights of Columbus (not to be confused with the ancient Knights of Malta whose membership was restricted to European nobility until American moguls became rich enough) which, as of 2007, claimed assets of over $14 billion.

Does it not boggle the mind to think what all the Catholic Church assets must be in this country, or in Italy where the Church is entrenched in all finance, industry and real estate, or the rest of Western Europe and around the world?

wtf?

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:06:12 AM EST
Hey how's that tax on Church property law going?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nowhere. It was by the way, a Prodi give-away, later enlarged by Berlusconi. Fat lot of good it did Prodi.

We need Garibaldi and his convictions on the Church. Confiscate everything. Round up everyone in the Vatican and all their cohorts and send them to the Sahel, each with a shovel and a ladle.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:50:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let them convert the Salafists.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 11:51:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
don't they like little boys too?


"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 05:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ET receives the EHF press release:

EHF welcomes a brave decision of the ex-pontifex

Let's be fair, Joseph Ratzinger's resignation announcement proves the courage of a man who has become aware of its limitations. We must now hope that Catholics - at least those who still pay attention to the voice of the pontifex maximus - will be guided with more inspiration in the future.

Joseph Ratzinger used his influence to impose dogma and faith as the bases of common life. He tried to disqualify homosexuality and ethical progress by pronouncements ignoring the evolution of society. Fortunately, the influence of the Vatican continues to reduce in general and certainly in Europe. Today, believers are more likely to live their faith independently, without subscribing to the orders of leaders who covered the paedophilia outrages within the clergy and brought revisionist and fundamentalist bishops back in the "family".

The European Humanist Federation encourages them to continue in this direction by increasing their independence and critical thinking towards an institution increasingly disconnected from its time and its human issues.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 11:50:59 AM EST
Joseph Ratzinger's resignation announcement proves the courage of a man who has become aware of its limitations.

Interesting use of the third person pronoun.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 12:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not just Dawkins and Bono:
The long-shot candidates, Richard Dawkins carries 666/1 odds at PaddyPower, Bono stands at 1000/1 at both PaddyPower and Coral, Madonna and Oprah both return 2000 dollars for a one dollar bet at Coral, Silvio Berlusconi is a 2500/1 dark horse candidate at StanJames and Lance Armstrong is a 10,000/1 bet at Coral.
But what about Blair?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Feb 13th, 2013 at 05:29:16 AM EST
Resigning Pope No Longer Has Strength To Lead Church Backward | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

Citing his advancing age and deteriorating health, Pope Benedict XVI announced his resignation from the papacy Monday, saying he no longer possessed the strength and energy required to lead the Catholic Church backward.

According to the 85-year-old pontiff, after considerable prayer and reflection on his physical stamina and mental acuity, he concluded that his declining faculties left him unable to helm the Church's ambitious regressive agenda and guide the faith's one billion global followers on their steady march away from modernity and cultural advancement.

"It is with sadness, but steadfast conviction, that I announce I am no longer capable of impeding social progress with the energy and endurance that is required of the highest ministry in the Roman Catholic Church," Benedict reportedly said in Latin to the Vatican's highest cardinals. "While I'm proud of the strides the Church has made over the past eight years, from thwarting AIDS-prevention efforts in Africa to failing to punish or even admit to decades of sexual abuse of children at the hands of clergy, it has become evident to me that, in this rapidly evolving world, I now lack the capacity to continue guiding this faith back centuries."



"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 08:28:51 AM EST
But
Just hours after announcing his resignation from the papacy Monday, Pope Benedict XVI confirmed that he had accepted a lucrative senior analyst position at a New York-based Catholic think tank, the Westchester Institute for Ethics and the Human Person. "My years at the Vatican have been tremendously rewarding, but the time has come for me to move on to new challenges, and after interviewing for a variety of different positions, the senior analyst job at the Westchester Institute seemed like the natural next step for my career," said the 85-year-old Benedict, whose extensive résumé reportedly begins with the line "Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of Apostles, 2005-2013.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 08:36:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]

Top Diaries