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Counting the MEPs

by A swedish kind of death Sat May 31st, 2014 at 02:10:28 AM EST

We often hear about the great advances of the far right in the EP election, but seldom any concrete numbers. Now, I am a bit sceptical as we started hearing about this long before the election. Join me in estimating the numbers of MEPs each group will have after the sorting is done, and lets see if there really was a far right advance, and if so how big.

front-paged by afew


Now, what is the far right and what seats did they hold before. Luckily, we have already had this conversation and I am going to use DoDo's definition of the right of centre-right:

DoDo:

all right-of-centre-right forces (ECR+AfD, EFD, the FN block and Jobbik & co, and I won't exclude the Tories and ODS)

Which tallied 111 out of 761 or 14,6%. Of these 88 were ECR or EFD leaving 23 to the right of them. So I will divide new parties and non-inscrits along the lines of existing groups, racists and others. And then we add up the changes of the right-of-centre-right and the left of Greens.

Fortunately, wikipedia has already started counting the Group reshuffling. Now wikipedia has this rules about sources and stuff so when I take it from wikipedia I will add (wp), otherwise I will just use my common sense and your comments.

Starting with the new parties:

Germany
7 (AfD) ECR (wp)
1 (FW) ALDE (wp)
1 (Piraten) Green
1 (Tierschutz) GUE/NGL
1 (Familie) ECR
1 (NPD) racist
1 (ÖDP) Green?
1 (Partei) joke NI
Italy
17 (M5S) left, likely NI
Spain
5 (Podemos) GUE/NGL (wp)
2 (C's) ALDE (wp)
Poland
4 (KNP) EFD?
Romania
1 (Diaconu) ALDE? (That is his former partys home)
Netherlands
1 (PvdD) Green?
Czech Republic
4 (ANO) ALDE
4 (TOP 09) EPP
1 (Svobodní) EFD
Greece
3 (XA) racist
1 (ANEL) ECR
2 (Potami) S&D (wp)
Portugal
2 (MPT) Green
Sweden
2 (SD) racist
1 (FI) GUE/NGL
Bulgaria
2 (BBTs) anti-censorship NI?
1 (RB) EPP
Slovakia
1 (Nova) ECR
1 (OĽaNO) ECR (wp)
Ireland
1 (Childers) Greens?
1 (Flanagan) anti-EU, pro-cannabis. Leftish NI?
Lithuania
1 (LVŽS) leaning EPP says their wp-article

And the parties already in the NI:
France
24 (FN-RBM) racist
United Kingdom
1 (DUP) NI (Why are they not in the ECR?)
Spain
4 (UPyD) ALDE
Netherlands
4 (PVV) racist
Belgium
1 (VB) racist
Hungary
3 (Jobbik) racist
Austria
4 (FPÖ) racist

In addition, we have some switches. According to wikipedia PNL from Romania is switching from ALDE to EPP and Lega Nord is switching from EFD to a new racist group.

Seats and change from outgoing parliament, that is including MEPs added during the period (to be updated after my group guesses has been corrected)

EPP223 (-51) = 210 + 6 (PNL) + 4 (TOP 09) + 1 (RB)  + 1 (LVŽS)
S&D193 (-3) = 191 + 2 (Potami)
ALDE63 (-20) = 59 - 6 (PNL) + 1 (FW) + 4 (ANO) + 1 (Diaconu) + 4 (UPyD)
ECR63 (+4) = 46 + 7 (AfD) + 1 (Familie) + 1 (ANEL) + 1 (Nova) + 1 (OĽaNO) + 2 (PS) + 4 (DF)
Greens58 (+1) = 52 + 1 (ÖDP) + 1 (Piraten) + 1 (PvdD) + 2 (MPT) + 1 (Childers)
GUE/NGL50 (+15) = 45 elected + 1 (Tierschutz) + 5 (Podemos) + 1 (FI) - 2 (KKE)
Racist42 (+19) = 1 (NPD) + 3 (XA) + 2 (SD) + 24 (FN-RBM) + 4 (PVV) + 1 (VB) + 3 (Jobbik) + 4 (FPÖ)
EFD38 (+7) = 38 - 5 (LN) + 4 (KNP) + 1 (Svobodní) - 2 (PS) - 4 (DF)
Leftish NI18 (+18) = 17 (M5S) + 1 (Flanagan)
Other NI5 (+-0) = 1 (Familie) + 1 (Partei) + 2 (BBTs) + 1 (DUP) + 2 (KKE)
These positions are largely stabs in the dark after looking at their wikipedia article, so go ahead and correct me were I am wrong. Before being corrected, this adds up to right of EPP: + 28, left of Greens: + 35. So the election is a swing from the centre, but  more to the far-left then to the far-right. So much for the media narrative.

Update [2014-5-29 18:24:3 by A swedish kind of death]:: ÖDP moved to Greens.

Update [2014-5-30 3:21:22 by A swedish kind of death]: UPyD moved to ALDE.

Update [2014-5-30 4:41:58 by A swedish kind of death]: Removed uncertainty on baseline for S&D

Update [2014-6-2 4:17:56 by Migeru]: formatted group changes as a table [Update] Moved around some parties in accordance with kataak's comment and new updates on wikipedia.

Display:
Where are the 3 Tsipras MEPs from Italy?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 04:00:11 PM EST
For one reason or another wikipedia editors counted them in the 45 elected GUE/NGLs instead of new with GUE/NGL-affiliation.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 04:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this... I knew there was some lazy journalism going on. In fact the official EU TNS Sofres estimates were pretty much on the money, and very far from what the press were reporting.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 05:00:29 PM EST
  • Germany's ÖDP is a Christian-conservative environmentalist party (IIRC a Greens breakaway from ages ago) whose elected MEP declared that he will join a "non-extremist" group that opposes the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and supports renewables, and the decision won't be made before a party congress next month. I can't see how he can twist his own conditions to join EPP instead of Greens/EFA.
  • What's the criteria for you for a "new party" on the list? DK (S&D), Együtt-PM and LMP (Greens/EFA) from Hungary are all new, too, and AFAIK only LMP had a European party affiliation before. NOVA (ECR) from Slovakia is also new.

BTW, I corrected "rascist" to racist.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 05:11:23 PM EST
IIRC a Greens breakaway from ages ago

Upon checking, they existed under a different name from 1978, took part in the formation of the Greens in 1980, and left the same year, and changed their name to the present one in 1982. They survived in local politics in Southern Germany.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 05:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One more for the Greens then.

The criteria is that they are in the "New parties
w/o affiliation" in this table. I assume that the parties that are sorted by the wikipedia editors are correctly sorted.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 06:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd put a question mark after "(ÖDP) Green", though. Meanwhile, you can remove the question mark for Bulgaria's RB, they are definite EPP.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 05:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Done. You don't happen to know anything about BBTs, Bulgaria Without Censorship?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 07:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found that they requested EPP membership but weren't accepted. From what I have seen, their populism is both social (rejection of austerity and flat tax) and nationalist-racist (anti-Roma).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 08:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia is a bit unclear of the number if seats S&D held in the outgoing parliament

Mid-term arrival of Lisbon Treaty and Croatian MEPs, DIKO/Cyprus switching from ALDE?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 05:41:16 PM EST
That could be it.

In the infobox it is 184, but that is last election. In outgoing from 7th parliament it is 196. So 196 would be the correct number to compare with then.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 06:17:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Upon checking, it adds up: 5 Lisbon Treaty extras + 5 Croatian Social Democrats + 2 DIKO MEPs = 12 mid-term gains for S&D.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 04:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be the difference then.

Updated to reflect that.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 04:42:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If M5* joins UKIP, then I guess I should put them to the right.

UKIP's Farage meets Italy's five-Star leader Grillo in Brussels | Reuters

UKIP's Farage meets Italy's five-Star leader Grillo in Brussels

And that would upset everything. Including my stomach.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 29th, 2014 at 06:21:18 PM EST
No surprise there.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 01:34:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the membership over-ruled him that time. And if he for tactical reasons are flirting with xenophobia as eurogreen thinks in that thread, I still don't see the tactical sense in joining up with UKIP.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 03:18:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Grillo joining up with Farage would be a definite second strike for me. Three strikes and you're out.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 05:05:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, to me he would be caught. You're out immediately when you're caught.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 06:17:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 05:58:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the parties already in the NI:
Spain
4 (UPyD) social liberal, federalist, NI
I'd be very surprised if UPyD didn't join ALDE. If it doesn't it would be because PNV and CDC would block it for its antinationalism. But Ciudadanos (C) got in and is very similar to UPyD on that score. There are ALDE MEPs on the record accusing UPyD of being "Jacobin, not Liberal".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 01:32:44 AM EST
I placed them and DUP in NI on accounts of them being in NI in the last parliament, so I figure there were some reason or another. But if you say ALDE, I'll move them.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 03:13:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beppe Grillo's Blog
After the self-flagellation, the calls for self-criticism, the maalox, the calls for Grillo's resignation (without specifying the position he holds and has to resign from) urgent requests coming from miraculous people in the world of politics who are now coming out into the open, perhaps now is the time to look for a teeny bit of objectivity and realism in evaluating the election results. The M5S now has 17 Euro-parliamentarians , whereas before it had none. It is the second party in the country and the top Movement. For now, it has a new mayor and it's taking part in 12 second ballots in important cities like Livorno, Modena, Fano and Civitavecchia. It has more than 500 new local councillors. The M5S came into being in October 2009. The PD has been in existence since the end of World War II, when it was called the Italian Communist Party and it has continually changed its name since then. For a complete mutation it should call itself the PDC (Partito democratico cristiano) {Christian Democrat Party} as an intermediate step before being the Christian Democrats, to come full circle. De Mita's offspring, Renzie's historical selfies and the ones of Letta and of Alfano with De Mita can all be found on the Internet. They have phagocytised the left wing like a python swallowing a mouse and what's amazing is that the post-communists are even happy about it. Even though we cannot hide the fact that we wanted to come out in front of the PD, our statements have been transformed into a resounding defeat, like at the battle of Caporetto, or the battle of Waterloo. But how much cheap wine do they consume before they start to write? The M5S is here in Europe and it's going to hang around and make its voice heard. We are the top Opposition organisation in Italy (in fact the only one after decades without an Opposition), and we are waiting to get into government. Of the Italians aged 18 to 29 the highest percentage vote for the M5S. It's just a matter of time.


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 07:01:39 AM EST
"The M5S is here in Europe and it's going to hang around and make its voice heard." is the sentence Reuters placed as some sort of reply about UKIPs press release. Looks taken out of context.

So no indication on EP group or any reply to UKIPs press release?

Then what we know is that Farrage did meet Grillo (unless it is a photoshop), and the rest is a question on wheter one wants to believe what UKIP writes.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 07:13:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the European Parliament you don't "hang around". You join a parliamentary group or you get hung out to dry. The Non-aligned have much fewer procedural rights in the European Parliament than they do in national parliaments. So, Grillo will have to join somebody.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 07:24:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, depends on why they are there. If the main point isn't to affect EU legislation but to use it as pulpit for a domestic audience, then the symbolic value of group affiliation is more important then practical advantages. And for M5* independence is symbolic.

M5* could also form the core of a new group. For that they need 8 more MEPs from 6 different countries. Like tories and UKIP has done. Perhaps Grillo was taking notes on how a group works and how UKIPs offers to newcomers are structured...

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 07:33:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hope springs eternal in the human breast, I see.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 07:38:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And pessimism is always serious.

I don't see anything in the actions of M5* that makes me write them off as a party. Grillo may be their front figure, but so far the party has not followed him when he heads into racist territory.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 08:30:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You seem to have understood the MV5 movement well, Askod. Probably your experience with the Pirates!

As for Grillo breaking bread with Farage, I don't really get it. The only thing to admire about the latter is his propensity, George Galloway style, to say what the other pols are sometimes thinking but are too whipped to say out loud, otherwise I can see no virtue in the man or his movement. Immigration is a big issue, and Italy is geographically very prone to the exodus from the ME and Africa, but the worst racists in Italy were the last-guard Lega buffoons like Calderoli and Bossi, and if it were not for Matteo Salvini, their new leader, they would be soggy toast. He is savvy enough to frame his anti-immigration rhetoric as proactive, in the sense if it costing less to give the money spent on fishing them out of the sea, treating them for illness, processing their identities and housing/possibly integrating them straight to the countries involved, in theory stemming the flow in that way, setting them up so they don't want to leave in such numbers.

Grillo's take on it is less articulated, though I can say after scrutinising them this last year I have heard nothing to suggest that there's a latent bubble of racism within the ranks, or in blogposts from voters and sympathisers.

Farage seems more a shitstirrer than Beppe is even, and I think they both share some glee at upending some EU sacred cows, but Grillo rejected Le Pen's advances pre-election, so why he's checking out Farage I am not sure. I have seen posts from MV5ers warning him off Farage on the blog.

I'm interested in whether bloggers here see Le Pen or Farage as furthest right. My hunch is that Le Pen is more moderate, but I don't know.

The huge difference I see between UKIP and MV5 is UKIP's lack of coherent positive policies, it's all anti-. Beppe has a lot of that too, but his proposals for a new version of Italy seem a lot more grounded in realism. Another big difference is that Beppe has surrounded himself with intelligent counsel and footsoldiers, whereas take Farage away and one is under-impressed with the calibre of his personnel. He manages to be pretty poisonous but has some charisma of sorts and is quite articulate, especially after listening to the bland, but equally toxic burblings of Clegg, Cameron and Miliband Junior who have left planet Earth long ago. Farage gives voice to racism, Beppe not. Beppe's position is that until you are on firm ground you can't help others, and Italy's unemployment issues cannot only be solved by importing gazillions of hungry economic refugees who then get slavemastered by the Mafia to pick Puglian tomatoes for E2 a day. Mr Fortress Europe he is surely not, and if he does have some racist bone in his body I'm not aware of it, and I think his movement would neither countenance or endorse it in any way, were it really even there. Maybe he's meeting Farage to learn what not to do, maybe he knows it'll rattle some cages back in Italy so it's more a gambit than a ploy, we'll have to wait and see. If he were visiting Wilders I'd be a lot more concerned. It is odd and unexpected though...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 09:35:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Of the Italians aged 18 to 29 the highest percentage vote for the M5S. It's just a matter of time."

Another twenty years of opposition, then?

by IM on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 09:39:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Renzi has to pull many rabbits out of the hat to prove his fast-talking campaign was more than hot air, and now the right is so weakened, the MV5 will be there to keep nudging and poking Renzi in the left direction against the fatcat lobbies pulling him right (wrong!).  

Make that 20 years 2-3, in other words...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 10:00:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Que sera, sera.

Who expected 40% for the PD, after all?

by IM on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 10:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well part of me thinks they faked some of the counting, the other half sighs and thinks the electorate is mentally disturbed enough to vote in the new shiny wonderboy now that the Old Lecher has lost grip. 1994 redux...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 08:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After cruising MV5 FB comments there is a lot of worry Beppe's starting with the wrong foot, but many others reminding that Farage is for more national sovereignty, reining in the banks etc. So there are some cogent points of agreement there. As Mig says, alone you are just hung out to dry.

Why not start with the Greens I wonder? Too institutionally status quo? Too deep into the system?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 09:55:49 AM EST
others reminding that Farage is for more national sovereignty, reining in the banks etc
People who defend Farage on those grounds are not paying attention. Really.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 10:02:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's more appreciating the stopped-clock syndrome than defending anyone.

Listen, if you are hungry and someone gives you a meal that is half shit, half good food, do you refuse the good because you don't like the rest?

It is sickly ironic that of all people it's Little Englanders like Farage standing up and calling out Rompuy, Barroso and the ECB, but someone needs to do it...yesterday!

You don't have to like the service when you're starving for nourishment.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 08:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in my view, and also a story that is largely missed in our "press": the left did very well in these elections, far better than the so-called far-right.

But, that doesn't sell papers. And of course it also didn't happen in France or Germany.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 03:51:58 PM EST
You must be so gutted.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 03:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't follow.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 03:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgive me for looking for a pattern in your thoughts. You delight in the triumph of the "BBM" lists in the French constituencies, but you're also happy about the progression of the left elsewhere? Oh well. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 06:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar sees no worthy left in France, is all...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 06:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought redstar saw no democratic legitimacy in the EU. That's why I'm confused about his stance.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sat May 31st, 2014 at 12:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The answer to why redstar would vote for Le Pen in France is essentially the lack of a viable left option. The goal there is "the worse, the better" trolling of the Parti Socialiste. One may disagree, but the fact that this is redstar's position has been very clear for a long time.

How that interacts with democratic legitimacy is more complicated. But again, if you believe France should credibly threaten to pull out of the Euro, who do you vote for? The Euro is the brainchild of the French Socialist élite (Mitterrand, Delors...) And now Hollande has become a supply-sider: The real scandal is France's stagnant economic thinking (Wolfgang Münchau, 19 January 2014)

The third significance lies in the fact that the new consensus spans the entire mainstream political spectrum. If you live on the European continent and if you have a problem with Say's Law, the only political parties that cater to you are the extreme left or the extreme right.
But as redstar has explained, the Front de Gauche tied itself to Hollande's mast before the municipal elections earlier this spring, and so sealed their fate.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 07:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, independently of redstar's personal choices, I have no truck with that sort of world view with respect to political alliances.

The fact that people of the PCF cannot imagine that they might ally themselves with the PS in municipal elections, and have different positions at a national or European level, is pretty much why I am unlikely to vote for them, ever. The Leninist notion of democratic centralism is just so powerfully destructive. Alliances should be tactical and results-driven, and the principle of subsidiarity should apply.

And in fact, the PCF didn't even ally itself systematically with the PS at the municipal elections (for example, in Lyon, they ran lists against the PS mayor) -- redstar (and the national press) got pretty excited because they ran with the PS in Paris; I consider this to be a local matter, to be settled by Parisians, which should not unduly affect the debate on a national level, much less on a European level.

I would find it very surprising indeed if the FDG delegation to the EU parliament should turn out to vote with EPS, and against GUE/NGL, on questions concerning economic or monetary policy. Which is why I find it incoherent to be happy with their poor result in France, and with their relatively good overall result in the EU.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 08:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Leninist notion of democratic centralism is just so powerfully destructive.

Could you elaborate? The way I see it, redstar is actually defying democratic centralism by rejecting a PCF decision once made.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 12:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was reacting to Migeru's narrative, of how the PCF's positioning in municipal elections (in Paris, centre of the known universe), made it impossible for redstar to vote FDG in the EU elections. No doubt a misuse of the term. The idea is more the all-or-nothing, black/white mindset that allows a PCF activist to contemplate switching to the mortal enemy, the FN (just as, in the 20th century, there were numerous switches between the PCF and the Catholic churcg)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 04:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
many times, the PCF's tonedeafness on Europe and the Euro is a big problem too.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The goal there is "the worse, the better" trolling of the Parti Socialiste.

To which the PS of today will react with more... xenophobia. The message won't even arrive.

But again, if you believe France should credibly threaten to pull out of the Euro, who do you vote for?

Is FN a single-issue party? Would redstar have been okay with the Nazis just for ditching Brünning's policies?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 12:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
things but Nazis they are not.

Anyhow the true quislings today in europe are people like Hollande/Valls, or Zapatero and now Rajoy, who do not even wait for the Brussels/Berlin diktat, and are happy to implement austerity without prodding, with predictable results.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 04:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice way of sidestepping the question...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Discussion is a nice way to sidetrack the whole discussion.

Probably the reason Godwin's law was drawn up

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was in the other thread, but Brünning was brought into the discussion by Migeru. (And don't get me started about Godwin's Law.)

Let me ask directly: is the FN's rampant xenophobia no problem for you?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is far less than it was. Far far less.

But again, I don't see the same question being asked to the french-based social-democratic types as to whether they have a problem with Manuel Vall's regular appeals to xenophobia (racist comments while Mayor in l'Essonne, deportations of Roms, et c.)

Why don't these get talked about?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
some of us are closer to a party which called Valls on it, and refused to enter his government.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 06:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
complimentary things about them at the time.

But unfortunately EELV is too wedded to Europe. Their slogan "give life to Europe"...well they are either naïve or they haven't been watching as Berlin has been giving life to a Europe I can only reject. All the while EELV's cheerleader in Germany, Cohn-Bendit, has been cheering them on (and ridiculing your party's current leadership).

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 06:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They do, here on ET. I suspect they are not considered central to the Socialist platform.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2014 at 04:07:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not see the xenophobia as being rampant

You avert your eyes.

I don't see the same question being asked to the french-based social-democratic types ... Why don't these get talked about?

Who are the French-based social-democratic types here? If you want to troll Jerôme, he is not around. I for one have regularly exposed Valls in the Newsrooms and remember several discussions, and you can't deny that his line was the PS's reaction to the FN's success.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 01:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Success. When he was mayor of Evry Marine Le Pen hadn't even been elevated to leader.

He has wanted to be Sarkozy in PS label for a very long time. Small wonder, it works here. Why? Ultimately, because not enough jobs duh.
Not that the PS plans to actually do anything about that.

As for social democratic types this pretty much fits the bills for the lot of you. And the KPD was right about how y'all are.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 01:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The stalinist KPD was never right about anything. And happily nationalist anyway.
by IM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 06:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 07:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgotten nothing and learned nothing, what?

Now wonder you have that warm feeling of comradeship with fascists -  then and now.

by IM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 07:54:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to be clear that was me posting the youtube video (that I hope can be seen in Germany) as an interpretation of what redstar meant with the KDP reference.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 09:06:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I misfired.
by IM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 07:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Vall's racism predates by a lot the FN

Now you're intentionally obtuse. First, Valls was mayor from 2001, that's just a year before le Pen got into the second round against Chirac, and FN had successes well before that. Second, what really matters is not what he did as a relatively unknown local politician, but what he did with full approval of the PS leadership, his PM and his President once he became interior minister. And years before Valls, his supposed role model Sarko was trying to out-FN the FN, too. But you know that full well.

Marine Le Pen hadn't even been elevated to leader

What does that have to do with anything? You keep pretending that we have had a (1) single-issue (2) French Presidential election and that (3) the FN candidate started with a clean slate and (4) without any party membership. In truth, we had an EP election, with several issues, FN had a party list loaded with the same old faces and plans alliances with forces in other countries sharing its "values" in much more than sovereignist opposition to the Euro. I could go on, but if you are in denial about the views of ET's resident FN supporter (fredouil) then you will remain in denial about it all.

As for social democratic types this pretty much fits the bills for the lot of you.

LOL! Shifty, aren't you? First it was "French-based social-democratic types" whom you surmise to be hypocritical about Valls, now that you can't locate a single one of those, everyone is a social democratic type? I suspect only a handful of us voted for S&D members, so your definition of "social democratic type" must be rather wide. In fact I wonder if you now classify those still faithful to the FDG as "social democratic types".

the KPD

Let's talk about the PCF, which you are bolting for the fascists. What happened to them that they lost credibility with you? How could it have happened? Come to think of it, how capitalist can China's Communist Party become before you see them in a worse light than the PCF now?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 11:54:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
bullshit about revoking citizenship. Even made it to front web page of PS press organ Le Monde.

http://mobile.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2014/06/03/decheance-de-nationalite-valls-imprecis-va lls-amnesique_4430975_4355770.html

When we talk about racism in politics in France, there is a larger context. It is general, and MLP is not worse than Manuel Valls in my opinion.

As to adherence to social democracy and liberalism, I am especially talking about this site's historical primary patron. Not around much...conveniently...so as not to have to apologize for his party.

Finally in PCF we have a hack who is about one thing only...keeping what little power remainimg in place. Not renewal, not convince people, just keep old crusty mayors in place. He thought he had to ally with the PS, primarily because he is a profoundly stupid man. Of course, the lost virtually everywhere, and because of it, anywhere near the capital. And they are still in denial.

When the party in Beijing starts losing elections I might start talking like you expect. But that may also be a ways off.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 10:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I missed that. I am shocked and angry. I'm disappointed that nobody from EELV seems to have reacted publicly; I hope that if there were still EELV ministers, they would have called him on it (with the obvious corollary of resigning from his government : which is reason enough for the decision not to enter it).

This is the equivalent of talking about the death penalty after a paedophile murder. It's pretty hard to stand up and say "This anti-semitic terrorist jihadist should keep his French nationality", but of course there is no way, constitutionally, that he could lose it (born French, in France, to French parents, he holds no other nationality).

Thinking it through : I could lose my nationality (there have been about 20 cases in the past 20 years) : because I acquired it, and because I hold another : if I committed an act of terrorism or high treason. [On checking : No I couldn't, because I've been French for more than ten years now. Phew.)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 4th, 2014 at 05:49:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for social democratic types this pretty much fits the bills for the lot of you.

Ahem.

Also, too.

I can haz a stop to this leftier-than-thou bullshit?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 05:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes I need a reminder.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 10:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well yes, in this logic Cameron/Clegg are quislings too.
by IM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 06:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even worse than the others for they really really don't have to be doing what they were doing.

unless it comes down to defence of class intrrest of course.  

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 10:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Could we amend that to 'so-called' LEFT, and 'Bogstandard Fascist-lite' far-right?

Even if we're through the looking glass either way...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 30th, 2014 at 08:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
<a href="http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/ecr-group-takes-two-parties-from-farage/">http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/ecr-group-takes-two-parties-from-farage/</a>

Some changes in ECR, MEP's from Family Party, Denmark People Party, Finns Party and Slovakian parties (Nova, OLaNO) officially joined ECR.

Also I want to highlight that KNP from Poland is not going to join ECR, they are fiercely anti-EU and they call Law and Justice (they have 18 MEPs in ECR) "socialists" :P

No chances for KNP in ECR.

_________________________________________________________________________________ Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat

by kataak on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 05:35:38 AM EST
Welcome to ET, kataak!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 05:37:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's good news... Tories are clearly identifying themselves with/as fringe reactionary nationalists... and Cameron still wants to dictate who can lead the Commission.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 06:14:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does he have a candidate (other than "none of the above")?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 07:06:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As a Head of Government he has such right to oppose some candidatures. Fractions and HoGs choosing candidates for Commission President are two separate things - for example Viktor Orban from Hungary is also opposing Juncker candidature but his party is in EPP. For you as radical left supporter that should be better when those parties from Denmark and Finland will be part of eurorealist/euroconservative ECR than theoretical Le Pen fraction.  

_________________________________________________________________________________ Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat
by kataak on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 02:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also as far as I remember Le Pen rejected possibility to cooperate with Jobbik, Golden Dawn and NPD. So they will probably NI. Also I am not sure if ODP and MPT will be part of Green/EFA fraction. They are too conservative for Greens.

_________________________________________________________________________________ Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat
by kataak on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 02:32:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He obviously has the right to support or oppose whatever he wants, but when he publicly allies himself with the angry white pensioner brigade his chances of having his objections heard diminish rapidly.

And if the EP decides to pick a fight over whether Parliament or Council appoint the commission, then there is a good chance that the EP will win, further diminishing whatever little formal weight Cameron's opinions have to be given. If for no other reason then because the Council can't really afford a constitutional crisis right now.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 02:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, updated. You did not say what groups KNP would be interested in, so I moved them to EFD but left the question mark.

Anyway, looks like ECR is pinching the small EFD parties or the small ones are abandoning ship. Either way, the current EFD looks like they will have a hard time reaching the seven countries limit, being squeezed between ECR and the possible Front National group. Then again Front National will not have an easy time forming a group either, in particular if they reject the outright fascists.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 02:48:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just found on EAF wiki page such sentence:

"Racial and anti-Semitic European nationalist parties National Democratic Party of Germany, the British National Party, Greek Golden Dawn, Hungarian Jobbik and Bulgarian Атака are not permitted to join"

About EFD they now have only 4 parties so probably EFD will collapse soon. Even with KNP which is not so keen to join Farage (they have ambitions to form alternative alliance, I don't know how and why but I have heard such rumors). Also I don't see who else Le Pen can be "catched up" to her fraction. Order and Justice as far as I can read from AWPL page (Electoral Action of Poles in Lithuania) don't have bad relations with AWPL, they together form current Lithuanian government so ECR have chance to take from post-EFD another party. Reformed Political Party from Netherlands probably will also join ECR after EFD collapse as they are part of European Christian Political Movement. I don't know how it will be with other, smaller parties but I don't think that EFD will survive neither Le Pen will form fraction.

_________________________________________________________________________________ Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat

by kataak on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 03:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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