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ECB, wtf ?

by eurogreen Sat Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:08:44 AM EST

Two days after the latest round of ECB tinkering with the Eurozone's monetary parameters, I find nothing but a bored silence at the European Tribune.

This is distressing, as it exposes me to the risk of having to think for myself.

So I will expose my naive and shallow thoughts, in hope of provoking some enlightenment...

So, Super Mario the plumber has apparently thrown the kitchen sink at the Eurozone economy. This is the big bazooka, we are told. He has hit the lower bound on interest rates, he admits.

But what has the ECB ever done for us anyway?


Vítor Constâncio, Vice-President of the ECB, concedes : not much, actually... Saved us from outright deflation, but provoked bugger-all economic growth, by their own estimates :

ECB staff estimated that, without our policies, inflation would have been a third of a percent negative in 2015 and would have stayed significantly negative throughout 2016
[...]
We estimate that two thirds of one percent of the registered growth in the past two years was due to our monetary policy.

Perhaps the only major result of ECB intervention in the past few years has been the boosting of asset prices, as the market is awash with cheap money. The indirect result of this is the severe worsening of income equality, between the owners of assets on one end, and working people, employed or not, on the other, as unemployment rises and real salaries decline. The "kitchen sink" measures will certainly accentuate this trend, with further QE and purchasing of corporate bonds (i.e. direct financing of the biggest corporations).

Constâncio again:

To normalise inflation in the euro area we urgently need higher growth that can reduce negative output and unemployment gaps, using all really available policies. If not monetary policy, then what?

What indeed? Although ECB rhetoric always puts inflation to the fore (it is their sole mandate), it's clear they are preoccupied with employment and incomes, as they should be. In Draghi's remarks the other day made it clear that he thinks governments should be spending more on infrastructure, (i.e. increasing their deficits), but he knows that's not going to happen (unless Merkel has another epiphany?)

So... Last September :

Mario Draghi is open to considering helicopter money - Positive Money

Legal research should be conducted to check whether `helicopter money' would be legally feasible in the Eurozone, said the President of the European Central Bank addressing a question from a Member of the European Parliament.)

On September 23rd 2015 Mario Draghi addressed the European Parliament at the quarterly "Monetary Dialogue"

And now?

Draghi press conference | The Guardian

Draghi: Helicopter money is interesting

Q: Could the ECB consider `helicoptor money' if the new measures announced today don't have their necessary effect?

Draghi replies that the idea is "interesting", and being studied by academics but the European Central Bank "hasn't really studied the concept yet".

... so the ECB hasn't done its homework yet... But as they are running out of options, it's clear that the idea is tempting to some among them.

Open question : what might ECB "helicopter money" look like?

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A cash payment to all citizens would work. But considering ECB's zeal when it comes to widening wealth inequality, I guess it would be unserious. Though Bush did it in the tax rebate, so there is that.
by fjallstrom on Sat Mar 12th, 2016 at 06:42:06 PM EST
Perhaps the only major result of ECB intervention in the past few years has been the boosting of asset prices, as the market is awash with cheap money.

Bingo.  Cheap financing does not mean affordable assets.  Quite the contrary.  Prices are bid up to the return margin of those can get the cheap financing.  Everyone else is priced out of the market for everything of any consequence, and the Serious People are amazed to see no positive results from their cash dumping.  Instead, those who could get the financing end up hoarding the assets at speculative prices (See "Onset of Implosion of Every Financial Bubble Ever".), and everyone else is living hand to mouth, except for a fortunate few who hoard a few bucks/euros/yen because they can't actually spend it on anything.  In spite of what the Austro-Chicago tools preach, that is a liquidity trap and a deflation spiral, and giving more cheap money to the Ueberklass won't correct it (but then the Ueberklass doesn't thing anything needs correcting).

by rifek on Sat Mar 12th, 2016 at 10:47:19 PM EST
I cannot think of a single other observation about the effects of QE that is as cogent as this comment! For me THIS was the BINGO moment: "Prices are bid up to the return margin of those can get the cheap financing." But it is hopefully not quite true, or, at least, doesn't mean that prices will increase to infinity. Please explain what the limits of the 'return margin' are when money is available at zero interest. Is it just the amount of such money made available? And what does this imply for Keynes' 'euthanasia of the rentier'?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2016 at 11:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting things happen when a system is taken to one of its natural limits. Some of the variables go to zero.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2016 at 11:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't been able to get this subject out of my mind. Rifek's comment clarifies so much. But some things are evident. We need to know the terms on which the QE money is supplied to those fortunate few. I doubt that it is just like giving them cash. And, if a bank uses the money to make a loan then reserve requirements still apply, but the 'mulitplier' is like for Repo 101: one over the reserve requirement. And what is the duration of this money and is it accompanied by a reverse repo agreement? But even with a 5% reserve requirement the effectiveness of the face value of the QE money would be 20 times the face amount. And then there SHOULD be at least the same prudential requirements for due diligence, but we have seen how concerned the Fed is with that.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 01:00:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you factor in certain tax provisions, much of it is indeed a giveaway.  And much of this is hidden, e.g. subsidies and regulatory waivers by local governments for "job creators" or the IRS's refusal to penalize the REITs (the entities supposedly holding all those wonderful junk mortgages) for failure to comply with the Code's trust closure deadline requirement.
by rifek on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 04:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
same here. I read that sentence and boom, wow. Speechless. So much truth and insight in such a short statement.

Also agree that if interest rates are zero then I guess many asset prices will go nearly to infinity, at least those assets on which people with access to cheap financing are bidding - New York or London appartment prices anyone????

by crankykarsten (cranky (where?) gmx dot organisation) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 12:33:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, but asset prices are not just influenced by current interest rates, but by the expectation of future average interest rates over the lifespan of the loan in question. It is the realisation that interest rates won't be going up any time soon which is driving asset prices, as much as the current interest rate and the (relatively) free availability of low interest loans to already asset rich buyers.

The other factor is that the increasing accumulation of capital by the 1% is resulting in a "savings glut" with little prospect of much of a return on any investment, let alone bank deposits.  Thus inequality in an of itself can drive asset prices higher leading to even greater inequality - until the next asset price bust in any case.  Most recent purchasers of property in ireland have been private wealthy individuals with no need to borrow in any case, or hedge funds with gazillions to spend in search of a big return.

Small businesses and mortgage buyers are still finding it difficult to get bank loans for working capital or home purchase. The banks are still sitting on a lot of money - hence the need for negative interest rates to encourage them to do what a bank should be doing in any case.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 01:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True that "intreset prices are not just influenced by current interest rates, but by the expectation of future average interest rates over the lifespan of the loan in question." And, per Chris Cook in another forum where I posted my comment, most of this QE is in the form of T-Bills, which are of less than 52 week duration, so this is short term money. That potentially increases the risk. TBTFs can use QE money to fund SPVs that invest in the stock market, which they can exit quickly and for which they can hedge the downside risk. This can lead to greater volatility in stock prices, but worse, the TBTFs have been living off of term arbitrage forever and it is not hard to imagine them using some of this money to invest in longer duration investments. And, of course, hedges are only as good as the firm selling them.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 01:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
AFAIK Deutsche bank is close to being a zombie bank due to its huge losses on CFD and other financial exotica and thus Merkel is v. constrained in what she can do to bail out Greece or stimulate the German economy even if she wanted to.  The German taxpayer having to bail out Deutsche bank would be a disaster for their self-image of prudence. Basically Deutsche bank appears to have followed Goldman Sachs et al in the speculative investment field but didn't get out in time. Typically German:  Too slow to do everything and nothing near as prudent as their self image suggests.  Better to blame the Greeks...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 02:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't know about Contracts for Difference. Well, it seems DB, for a change, did its CUSTOMERS a favor, some of them at least.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 03:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The straw that stirs the drink in the US is mortgages.  With a few exceptions (locations mortals can't afford to buy under any circumstances), price fluctuations are dictated by availability of financing.  Cheap financing, real estate goes up.  Truer with residential than commercial at least initially (residential borrowers are more rate-dependent, and residential lenders have more tax and regulation breaks than commercial), but as a real estate booms proceeds, commercial speculation increases, and the flips get quicker.  In the end, the return period for both residential and commercial shortens dramatically, and on the residential side, mortgage interest is the biggest tax break you can have, so it has a built-in return.
by rifek on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 04:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Return margin" for the borrower is getting a return after operating expenses and debt service.
by rifek on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 04:00:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the clarification. A good accountant should know. But, for the purposes of their dealing with the fruits of QE, how large can their operating expenses be? I guess they could write off the costs of contributions/bribes.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 04:21:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most likely social security recipients would get their social security reduced by the amount of helicopter money they would receive.
by Jute on Sun Mar 13th, 2016 at 04:49:31 AM EST
Headline sums it up for me.

Any action is better than none, but the recent ECB action is years late.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2016 at 06:17:06 AM EST
I think we are seeing the limits of what monetary policy, at best, can achieve, and that is not very much when we get to the zero bound.  Somehow the fetich with consumer inflation rates never gets extended to asset price inflation rates.  Why?  Because by definition, asset price inflation benefits those who are rich and already have the assets.  The increases in asset values can then be used to justify rental rate increases on those assets and the transfer of resources from the have-nots to the haves is further accentuated.

In theory the increase in asset prices should then stimulate the building industry and other development processes which create those assets. But in Ireland, at any rate, the banks have been reluctant to pass on those low ECB rates to their customers as they seek to re-build their balance sheets post crash. Low interest rates are also bad for bank profitability, and as Krugman has observed, Central bankers talk a lot to commercial and retail bankers and are thus heavily influenced by their "needs" for high salaries and profitability.

Restrictions on mortgage availability (requiring a first time buyer to provide 20% of the capital) have meant that the main buyers of property have been cash rich wealthy private buyers and international hedge funds who see a killing to be made as the economy recovers.  However those same high asset prices for land and buildings also make it very difficult to justify new productive investments and thus the real economy is slowed down if not stalled altogether.

The German led export growth model of economic growth cannot work for everyone as not everyone can be a net exporter especially now that the "emerging" economies are suffering from a crash in commodity prices.  The only rational alternative is for Governments to increase domestic demand through fiscal expansion, and that is precisely what they will not do - witness Osborne's latest announcement of cuts in UK government expenditure.

So the bottom line is that the ECB can't do very much, and much of what they can do has counter-productive consequences.  However the only reason we are even having this conversation is that the ECB appears to be the only EU institution which is even trying to take some responsibility for ensuring economic recovery.  The Commission is doing nothing of note, while national governments are persuing beggar thy neighbour policies.

So the economic crisis is also a political crisis of EU political authority, democratic legitamacy, and institutional capabilities - all of which the UK government and some semi-facistic allies in eastern Europe are trying to undermine further with its Brexit debate.  It is an open question whether Brexit would not be in the interests of a better functioning EU in the longer term even if it has severe consequences for the UK's main trading partners like Ireland in the short term. Without a functioning EU demos, EU institutions cannot develop in response to the crisis as the UK leads the way on nationalistic disintegration.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 07:42:19 AM EST
Same, same in the USA, ane we only have one federal government to blame, along with 1 1/2 parties and a bi-partisan consensus regarding fairy-tale economics.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 10:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
However the only reason we are even having this conversation is that the ECB appears to be the only EU institution which is even trying to take some responsibility for ensuring economic recovery.

With monetary stimulus, while actively preventing fiscal stimulus in the perifery of the EU.

by fjallstrom on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 11:27:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but as with any bank, its primery responsibility is to protect their own money.  Fiscal stimulus is a responsibility of the EU Council as representative of member state Governments, and they ain't going to go down that route either in Greece or in their own countries, largely for ideological reasons.

However there is some limited good news.  As Krugman never tires of pointing out, the deflationary impact of Government cuts is proportional to the rate of change of Government expenditure. EU Governments may not be spending much, but most aren't further cutting their expenditure, and thus the economic impact of their parsimony is petering out. As Ireland (and to a lesser extent) other peripheral EU states have shown, economic growth can recover quite quickly (off a much lower base) once the rate of change of cutbacks in Government spending declines.

And while QE and zero interest rates has the unwanted effecting of boosting asset price inflation in growing EU economies, it does at least have the effect of improving the sustainability of Peripheral sovereign and private debts and reducing asset price deflation in those economies.. You might say, just balm for a basically unsustainable and unjust situation, but central banks don't do morality.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 12:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
QE boost asset prices in stagnant economies as well, and, even for those growing under QE, the growth, maybe 2% at most, is dwarfed by the increase in asset prices which further exacerbates wealth disparities and increases the burdens on all who don't own through higher rents.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 03:45:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But in the case of Greece, in particular, and bombed out economies in general, the effect of QE is to minimise the complete freefall of asset prices which could facilitate the takeover of assets by external vulture funds etc. -  not that that hasn't been happening to some degree in any case. The ECB can thus play some beneficial role in helping an economy like Greece whilst similtaneously pissing off net creditor countries like Germany - "the ECB is playing around with OUR savers' money..."

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 04:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
The ECB can thus play some beneficial role in helping an economy like Greece whilst similtaneously pissing off net creditor countries like Germany - "the ECB is playing around with OUR savers' money..."

Well...

Mario's dangerous game with the German savers' money.

by Bernard on Tue Mar 15th, 2016 at 04:16:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL.  Hadn't seen that..!

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Mar 15th, 2016 at 04:56:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does it even matter that the ECB has good intentions when they keep pulling the same austerity and income inequality levers expecting different results?

Draghi's spreading enormous gobs of peanut butter fresh from the fiat grinder onto one tiny corner of the bread slice, and wow - amazing - the poor get poorer and the rich richer. Who'd a thunk it?

Of course he's just the kinder, gentler mouthpiece for the others he speaks for!

The only way out is citizen's income and they will conjure every trick in their voluminous book before they even do more than 'think' about it!

Every other option must be laboriously taken before finally yielding, so avoid admitting There Was An Alternative all along, the last 50 years have been a socioeconomic clusterfuck and they will all wail "If only we could have seen it sooner", like Greenspan's rueful nopology.

Their Ponzi scam is running on fumes, bad faith, and the flogging of a dead dinosaur trying to get it to 'grow' again like back in the day before Asia ate our industrial lunch, abetted by our own plutocrats.

Draghi dreams of renewed economic euro-vigor by trickle-down theory, when after killing economies there are no more competitive businesses for banks to loan to and realistically expect more than a few % return if lucky to get anything at all.

So it's impasse, stalemate, and oh yes, the right people are continuing to profit while we patiently explore any and all regressive, recessionary measures to continue to pretend that tinkle-down solutions will eventually work.

Sure, Marco... keep QE-ing. (GS trained you well.)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2016 at 11:30:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the main benefit of Mario's policies is that the ultra low interest rates help net debtor countries, firms and individuals and annoy the creditors who want an easy way to make money. Everything else is a bit like pushing on a rope: the rope may coil up in bank vaults, but it isn't doing much of anything in the real world. Even asset price inflation is caused more by "investors" buying in desperate search of a return because their money in the bank isn't doing much of anything for them.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Mar 15th, 2016 at 05:02:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
May it also not be due to bank secrecy as to their obligations when their bad bets come due?

That confidence fairy has to keep spinning to stay vertical.

The real numbers would scare the people into mass panic, the Charybdis to the CD swaps' Scylla.  So Draghi's can kicking gives time for Godot to show up (and his buddies to get their cash out of Dodge).

OT, but is Trump against TTIP?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Mar 15th, 2016 at 11:29:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 OT, but is Trump against TTIP?

AFAIK Trump has made anti-free trade noises - "exporting our jobs" - because its a populist thing to say.  Not sure that is any guide to what he would do.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Mar 16th, 2016 at 07:45:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is highly risky to go into debt even with negative interest rates in this economy. Singing how the low rates benefit debtors and discourage creditors is a fallacy. Under deflation, the creditors have the power to squeeze debtors badly while living comfortably. The game now is not financial returns but materializing your financial positions. Asset grab, baby!
by das monde on Wed Mar 16th, 2016 at 12:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is why countries, companies and individuals are all doing everything they can to reduce their net debt positions even though interests are so low and why the ultra low interest rates and QE are having so little stimulative effect on real economies or on inflation. With everyone repaying their debts, banks and vulture funds have to find somewher else to put their money.

The main reason Ireland's budgetary position has improved so much is that its interest costs are way below budgetary expectations which has in turn helped Ireland to reduce its debt/GDP  ratio from 121% to 95% in just 3 years.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Mar 16th, 2016 at 07:55:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Elite Bankers LOVE deflation. After the US Civil War Morgan was allied with the Rothschilds of London and had access to vast reserves of gold. They contributed, bribed and agitated to retire the Greenback Dollars, which produced deflation, and then their agents proceeded to foreclose on most of the loans they had made, thereby pocketing the profits already made plus the assets against which the loans had been made. It was the financial basis for the creation of the Southern term "Carpetbagger", and Carpetbaggers were protected by the Union Army and Reconstruction state governments. That is part of the dark side of Reconstruction.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2016 at 11:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whatever "Gone with the Wind" might preach, the aristocracy was in serious financial difficulty before the war, but after the war it managed to regain economic control, thanks to large injections of Northern and British capital.  With renewed economic power came a return of political power, even before the end of Reconstruction, which simply finished the job.  I highly recommend a book titled "Ballots and Fencerails", which focuses on Reconstruction in the Lower Cape Fear in North Carolina.
by rifek on Mon Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there's the thing. He IS contemplating "helicopter money". That does not equate to "citizen's income", but anyone but a trained economist would know that it's the most efficient way to deliver it.

I was hoping that someone would come up with ideas as to how the ECB could actually deliver money to actual people, presumably over the heads of their government.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Mar 16th, 2016 at 02:40:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Mar 17th, 2016 at 09:36:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  • We are going to start a new program called QE2, paying (80 billion euro / divided by number of recipients) per month to all EU inhabitants that we can transfer to. Please instruct your tax authorities to promptly comply with our instructions or your country is left out and everybody else gets more.

  • But ...

  • What part of independent don't you understand?

It is not harder than that. Not that I think they will do it, giving money to poor people goes against all they believe in.
by fjallstrom on Thu Mar 17th, 2016 at 12:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Draghi's Giant Giveaway; More Handouts for Wall Street
the ECB's bond buying program will have no impact on employment, business investment, inflation, lending or growth. It will, however, create a temporary incentive for corporations to buy back more of their own shares while providing more cheap cash for banks to roll over their prodigious pile of debt which otherwise would have dragged them into default. All in all, Draghi's turbo-charged QE should do largely what it was designed to do, shift more cash into overpriced financial assets while perpetuating the illusion that the EU banking system is still solvent.

The size and scale of Draghi's massive giveaway is impressive by any standard. He increased his purchases of financial assets by a hefty €20 billion per month (from €60 billion to €80 billion), pushed interest rates lower into negative territory (by 10 basis points), improved financing for the banks, and announced his intention to buy investment grade corporate bonds. The announcement that the ECB planned to enter the bond market was warmly received on Wall Street where giddy traders bought up everything that wasn't nailed to the ground. The Dow logged another triple-digit day while the S&P and Nasdaq followed close behind.

All they want for Christmas is rising market evaluations.
by das monde on Tue Mar 15th, 2016 at 10:48:23 PM EST
Der Postillon has an article about all the people who have rushed to the ECB headquarters to get their 0% loans.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Mar 17th, 2016 at 09:50:35 AM EST
Interview with Peter Praet, Member of the Executive Board of the ECB, conducted by Ferdinando Giugliano and Tonia Mastrobuoni on 15 March 2016 and published on 18 March 2016
Interview with La Repubblica

Can I ask you about what's left in the toolbox? Could we see `helicopter drops'?

There has been a lot of skepticism recently about monetary policy, not only in delivering but in saying `your toolbox is empty'. We say, `no it's not true'. There are many things you can do. The question is what is appropriate, and at what time. I think for the time being we have what we have, and it is not appropriate to discuss the next set of measures.

But in principle the ECB could print cheques and send them to people?

Yes, all central banks can do it. You can issue currency and you distribute it to people. That's helicopter money. Helicopter money is giving to the people part of the net present value of your future seigniorage, the profit you make on the future banknotes. The question is, if and when is it opportune to make recourse to that sort of instrument which is really an extreme sort of instrument.



It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sun Mar 20th, 2016 at 07:20:45 AM EST
 
that sort of instrument...is really an extreme sort of instrument.

Well, unless it is done only for the rich and powerful.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2016 at 11:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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