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Domestic Wind Power

by Carrie Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 06:30:55 AM EST

Back from the frontpage

original format restored ~ Migeru

There was a story in Sunday's breakfast about an Australian couple and how proud they were of their new wind (and solar) home power generating installation. It piqued my interest, and I ended up digging up this old news story, which I don't think has been diaried here before...

BBC: Generating interest in wind power (25 October 2005)

When Donnachadh McCarthy decided he wanted to generate his own electricity using a wind turbine, he almost fell at the first hurdle.

The planning application was initially refused after a neighbour objected - over what turned out to be an unnecessary concern.
...
A second amended application was finally given the go ahead soon after - making Southwark the first London borough to approve plans for a domestic model to be installed - and his neighbours seem more than happy.
...
The turbine was installed on the gable wall of Mr McCarthy's terraced house in Peckham, south London, on Monday, and should generate up to 600 kilowatt hours every year.
...
The turbine itself costs £1,000 but an inverter which turns the wind-generated electricity from DC to AC so that it can be used in the home costs a further £1,000.
...
Mr McCarthy hopes more Londoners will follow suit and that looks likely with Mr Connor saying a recent survey showed that more than 12% of those living in the city would like their own wind turbine.

Before you think that the UK is about to erect a forest of domestic windmills, consider this:

Hidden Windpower: The problem with wind power

Love them or hate them, wind turbines have visual impact and it has to be conceded that more than half the population:
"Would object to the installation of a wind turbine in their immediate vicinity" ( 57% according to the TV Country File poll of Feb. 2004).

It has also to be recognised that local planners are elected to reflect, and act on, the opinions expressed by the majority of those they represent. It follows therefore that refusal is the likely outcome for any planning submission involving wind power and the current rejection rate of over 50% merely indicates that local planning authorities are carrying out their electoral obligations

In the UK there is even an association called Country Guardian opposing wind farms on the following argument:
The Guardian: Mini-turbine brings 'green power for all' (November 24, 2003)
Yesterday [a new domestic wind turbine design] was provisionally backed by Country Guardian, the lobby group which has opposed almost every planning application submitted for windpower development in Britain in the past decade.

"I think they are a good idea. I don't think they'll look very beautiful, but we always feel that it's the people in cities who use the power and that we in the country have to pay the price," said Ann Evans, a vice-president.

This is for the news and the sociology of urban wind. Below the fold I consider some of the technical details even (horrors!) daring to get quantitative. Feel free to skip to the comments.


The Guardian story I used to illustrate the rural NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) problem includes the following:

Just two days after Britain's biggest offshore wind farm started generating electricity off the north Wales coast, the designers of the tiny domestic unit believe they can provide up to 15% of the annual electricity needs of an average house for a one-off cost of £750 - bringing green electricity into the price range of most families.
...
The system, says the Scottish inventor David Gordon, who has pumped £1m into the idea, can generate up to 750 watts - enough to power lights but not high-energy items such as kettles or heaters.
This is actually representative of the state of the art: a domestic wind generator can produce on the order of 1 KW and costs about £1000. [By 'on the order of' I mean that I am happy if '1' stands for anything between .3 and 3]

So, how must wind power can you hope to produce at home in an urban environment, and is it worth it? If I owned the house where I live, I reckon I could produce up to 1000 KWh per year, which covers about 50% of my household's electricity consumption, and hence save up to about £100 a year in electricity.

How much wind power you can obtain from your house depends on the area that your house (and lot, if you have it) covers. For example, my flat (in a 2-storey terraced house) is about 80 m^2, and the house has a yard of maybe 50 m^2, for a total of 130 m^2. If I add the front yard and 1/2 of the area of the street up to the middle of the road, the total area available for my hypothetical wind turbine(s) to catch comes to maybe 160 m^2. How much power can I extract from it?

The Danish Wind Industry Association has a fantabulous guided tour containing the following diagram (used without permission) illustrating what is considered to be the optimal separation between wind turbines in a wind farm:

The '4' and '7' are in units of rotor diameter, with the longer distance in the direction of prevailing winds. This is relevant because, if every house is going to have its own wind turbines, you have to consider your own turbine as part of a farm, and you cannot encroach on your neighbours' wind. The area corresponding to each turbine is then approximately 21 times the square of the rotor diameter. The assumption that the city is saturated is my justification for including 1/2 of the area of the street in front of my house as part of my 'catchment', by the way.

My 160 m^2 of catchment area then translate into d^2 = 7.6 m^2. That is, I could think of installing one turbine with a rotor diameter of 2.8m, or two turbines of 2m diameter, or 3 of 1.6m... you get the idea (in all three cases the total area swept by the rotors is the same).

According to a recent report of the Mid Wales Energy Agency, Domestic Roof-Mounted Wind Turbines - The Current State of the Art (PDF), which I found through the British Wind Energy Association's I want my own turbine page, there is a 2m turbine with a nominal power of 1500 W, and a 1.75m turbine with a nominal power of 1000 W, so it seems that I could hope to get 3 KW (nominal) out of my 160 m^2 catchment. However, KW range wind turbines are usually rated at their maximum power, which is by design obtained at wind speeds of 10 to 12 m/s, while typical speeds in an urban setting about 10m above the roof are typically 5 m/s. Small turbines usually produce power starting at 3 m/s (a lower cut-off than large, MW-range turbines), and power scales with the 3rd power of wind speed, so the Welsh report estimates an average output of barely 200 W for the 1500 W turbine. That is, 400 W for my possible two-turbine configuration. This is still enough to produce about 3500 KWh in a year, which might just cover the electricity costs for us and our downstairs neighbours.

Assuming I don't get planning permission for two 2m rotors on 10m poles, it seems I could still aim for 1 W per square meter with smaller turbines, and that's still good for 1400 Kwh in a year.

The cost of a KW-range turbine seems to be about £1 per 1W nominal power, that is, in the hundreds or low thousands of pounds for a typical home installation. Considering the expected life of the turbines is 10 to 20 years with little maintenance, and the current (and, as we know, likely to escalate) retail electricity prices, it seems like residential wind power is beginning to make financial sense, even in urban environments.

I note that, in places where the typical appartment building is higher than 2 storeys, the amount of power that can be produced begins to be insufficient. This would clearly the case for a typical 7-storey block of flats in mainland Europe. However, such a block might be able to get larger and taller turbines installed, for higher power output.

Display:
It's great to see investment prices coming down. When I last looked at the issue, it was so much on the edge of breaking even it was hard to justify.

Even now, at current energy prices there is a ten year payback period by your figures...

Small turbines on houses make great sense to me. After all many people willingly disfigure their houses with a Sky TV satellite dish, why not a small turbine?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 04:54:24 AM EST
So the wind turbine pays for itself in 3/4 of its lifetime... at current prices! But with inflation at about 2% or 3% and retail electricity prices increasing rather faster than that, you already do better than break even. Moreover, given the transmission losses in the electric grid, localized production saves as much energy to the utility as it does to you.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:20:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I am definitely going to do it, if I ever own a house...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:30:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking local councils could install large wind turbines at the centre of roundabouts.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A great idea. I wonder if we could get it into the consciousness of the Lib Dems. They have control of a fair number of councils these days...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Funnily enough I had suggested this to our local council. Wind conditions are far from ideal, but it would be a great gesture - especially since the gateway to our community is a large roundabout at the end of a motorway with two gas stations, a McDonalds and a mini-mall.

Hardly the vista of beauty that caused Jean Sibelius to live here...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 12:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So what did the council say?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 12:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is still under discussion (promoted by a friend - cultural secretary - on the council)

I don't have much hope, but we planned to at least get a debate going in the local rag this spring.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 12:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wind conditions are far from ideal

How was this established? With ground-based or tower-mounted measurements?

An experience in many places, but especially in some regions of low surface winds (like almost all of Hungary), is that winds 80 m high can be much stronger. (Most of the first Hungarian turbines measured average wind speeds significantly higher than predicted, say 6.2 m/s instead of 5.0, though that's still not much.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 01:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Finnish Energy Report

I'll try to find figures. There are windfarms in Finland - mostly offshore. Rarely see inland.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 01:44:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean, it was not established, more a general commend about wind in Finland?

There are windfarms in Finland - mostly offshore. Rarely see inland.

To my knowledge, Finland does not have a single off-shore wind farm. But with a mere 82 MW installed according to the latest European Wind Energy Association report, it is no wonder you see them rarely. (Or, by off-shore, do you mean on islands?)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 06:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
..of which we have plenty

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 07:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did some digging - indeed on this map, almost all turbines seem to be on the shore or islands. I wonder what information can be mined on the Finnish Wind Power Association homepage (in Finnish). A wind map of Europe shows only the shores suitable at 45 m above ground - but this seems a similar story as in Hungary, I suspect at 80 m above ground, all but the centre would be suitable. (On the other hand, the fundament and tower of a multi-megawatt turbine may be a bit too wide for a simple roundabout...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 06:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More - check Spain on the map: large green areas in the North, which are in fact filled with wind turbines now - another indication that winds can be significantly better higher-up.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 07:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
one point regarding aestethics. I luv them. (o.k I am in a 43% minority, but hey)

and another one regarding the - They make the landscape unseemly.

Wind is a crop like any in the country side. Forrests or oil seed rape can be similarly disliked by many and are in anyway almost always as artifical in their locations as wind turbines, they have just been around for slightly longer, but that should not really be an argument, or?

by PeWi on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:08:34 AM EST
Well, all I have to say about the æsthetics is that this Spanish wind farm

was recently declared protected as part of Spain's National Heritage. I guess we just need another 400 years for this kind

to be considered pleasing...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:15:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So all that needs to be done is make the new windmills look like the old and protected ones.  Maybe with nice appartments for the tourist inside.:-)
by Fran on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Note to Agnes: a romantic scene in a cyberpunk "coffin motel" in a Megawatt-range wind farm.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:28:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great idea Fran! You should patent it...  ;-)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 05:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
400 years...

Or once the Teletubbies generation grows up.



Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 04:38:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Love them or hate them, wind turbines have visual impact and it has to be conceded that more than half the population:
"Would object to the installation of a wind turbine in their immediate vicinity" ( 57% according to the TV Country File poll of Feb. 2004).

I won't concede it: I don't believe this was a scientific poll without evidence. Methinks this was televoting.

For a scientific poll, here is one from Scotland done in 2003: see the press report or the questionnaire (pdf!). (BTW, I'm just re-posting this comment.) Some results:

A total of 1,810 adults aged 18+ were interviewed by telephone between February 27 and March 18 this year. All respondents lived within a 20 km zone of the windfarms. The survey obtained results that are representative of people living within three zones (up to 5 km of a windfarm, 5-10 km and 10-20 km), and are representative of people living within 20 km of each of the ten windfarms...

  • Just five people (0.3%) spontaneously mention windfarms as a negative aspect of their area.

  • Three times the number of residents say that their local windfarm has had a broadly positive impact on the area (20%) as say that it has had a negative impact (7%). Most people feel that it has had neither a positive nor a negative impact.

  • People who lived in their homes before the windfarm was developed say that, in advance of the windfarm development, they thought that problems might be caused by its impact on the landscape (27%), traffic during construction (19%) and noise during construction (15%). By comparison, since the windfarm development, only 12% are concerned about the impact on the landscape,, 6% say that during construction there were problems with additional traffic, and 4% say there was noise or disturbance during construction .

  • There is substantial support for the idea of enlarging existing windfarm sites among those who live close to them, particularly if the increase in the number of turbines involves the addition of no more than 50% of the existing number. A majority (54%) would support an expansion of their local windfarm by half the number of turbines again, while one in eleven is opposed (9%). Support drops somewhat if the proposal is to double the number of turbines. In this case, four in ten would be in favour (42%) and one in five (21%) would be opposed.

  • People living closest to the windfarms tend to be most positive about them (44% of those living within 5km say the windfarm has had a positive impact, compared with 16% of those living 10-20km away). They are also most supportive of expansion of the sites (65% of those in the 5km zone support 50% expansion, compared with 53% of those in the 10-20km zone).

  • Similarly, those who most frequently see the windfarms in their day-to-day lives tend to be most favourable towards them (33% of those who see the turbines all the time or frequently say the windfarms have had a positive impact on the area, while 18% of those who only see them occasionally say the same).

  • While many say that they feel that nuclear, coal and oil generation should be reduced, clear majorities favour increasing the proportion of electricity generated through wave (69%) and wind energy (82%).

  • ...few are dissatisfied with the consultation by the developer (11%), with most expressing neutral views.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 06:35:30 AM EST
The people who want us to concede that more than half the population are against windmills have to concede that they are trying to push their own alternative lower-impact technology.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 06:41:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since I can't see them standing in competition with normal wind power, methings they either shot above the goal or are clueless about polls.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 07:06:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They probably just grabbed the most extreme poll they could get their hands on...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 07:18:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, DoDo, to go back to our discussion (on another thread) of terrain roughness and laminar/turbulent boundary layers, I really need to add to this diary (or to a second diary) a more elaborate discussion of urban terrain (roughness, obstacles...).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 06:59:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Belgium :
Description :
In 1999, the city council of Eeklo, a rather small city near Ghent, decided to start a project for sustainable development. Soon it became clear that a focus on energy was desirable. They chose to build windmills. First of all, a thorough analysis was made of the urban and rural areas in the vicinity. The city's environmental officer drew out a plan respecting several criteria. The mills would be built at least on 250 m from housing areas. They should not hamper the ecological context of important nature conservation areas. In the end, 3 sites remained where mills can be built respecting environmentally and socially sound criteria. On 2 of these, the city owns land. This was put up for rent. Seven companies entered the contest for the right to build and exploit the mills. Ecopower came out to be the winner.

What they are very proud of :

Thanks to an explicit information strategy and campaign - shared between Ecopower and the city - the inhabitants of Eeklo are well informed and quite supportive towards this project. Moreover, they are convinced of the mills' potential. A lot of them bought a share in Ecopower, in what should become `their' mills.

More info and technical details on the site of Ecopower .

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 09:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK there is even an association called Country Guardian opposing wind farms

...and created and led by an ex-Thatcherite moron who is in bed with the nuclear lobby. See some points in this Monbiot article and a later Guardian article.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 07:00:04 AM EST
Great catch!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 07:02:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Small turbines usually produce power starting at 3 m/s (a lower cut-off than large, MW-range turbines),

Notpick: the term is cut-in, and modern MW-scale turbines have cut-in speeds in the same range (see for example Enercon's E-70: cut-in speed is 2.5 m/s).

and power scales with the 3rd power of wind speed, so the Welsh report estimates an average output of barely 200 W for the 1500 W turbine.

Actually, you can be more optimistic than that. Just because of the 3rd power scaling, calculating with an average wind speed is a skewed underestimate: much of the delivered power will come from the short periods with strong wind. For large turbines, the rule of the thumb is 25% average efficiency (it can be significantly higher than that near shore or off-shore, up to twice that). Due to closeness to the ground let's assume 20% for a 1.5 kW home unit, gives 2628 kWh. (I note that the Welsh study does mention a claimed 4000 kWh/year yield for the 1.5 kW turbine - that would be a 30% efficiency, not at all unrealistic in a windier place.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 07:28:18 AM EST
Regarding catchment areas and such, is there a prevailing wind direction where you live? If not, the obstacle diameter times 7 should be the limiting factor - and should also be considered first if there are poles, church towers, highrises nearby. I.e., with two 2m rotors and no trouble nearby, the question is: is your flat+adjoining garden 14 meters long?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 07:33:26 AM EST
My flat is about 16m long and 5m wide... Including the yard, the lot it sits on is riduculously narrow, but that is common for English terrace houses.

According to the Danish tutorial the separations are 5-9 diameters and 3-5 diameters, which means that a regular hexagonal grid with 5d separation between turbines should be a possibility.

If one were to write down permissive planning regulations  preventing encroachment on neighbours' catchments, one could imagine a rule that a circle 5 times larger than the turbine rotor and centered on its tower should be entirely containe within your lot. More simply, the turbine tower should be 5 rotor radii away from the edge of the lot. Such a regulation would automatically ensure that turbines are proportionate to the properties they are erected on.

In my case, this would restrict my installation to two 1m-diameter rotors 10m apart. The lot is over 20m long, so the two turbines would fit nicely. The total nominal power would be 750 W.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 11:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My flat is about 16m long and 5m wide... Including the yard, the lot it sits on is riduculously narrow, but that is common for English terrace houses.

The typical lot width for townhouses here in Brooklyn is 14-20ft (c. 4.5-6m). There are even plenty of 12 and thirteen foot ones and a few that are as narrow as ten feet. A fifteen foot townhouse is actually a huge amount of living space. Think 40-50ft length, 3-5 floors and multiply. (divide by ten for square meters) Few are single family, but there are plenty with an owner duplex or triplex with the rest rented out as apartments.

by MarekNYC on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 10:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
3500 kWh with a 1500 W turbine seems optimistic. Wind turbines are evaluated on their "full hour equivalent" (i.e. the number of hours working at full capacity needed to produce what they end up producing in a year at variosu speeds). The average for large wind turbines in most of Europe is under 2000 hours (except in a few countries with much better wind regimes), and large turbines are much more efficient than small ones, so I'd take a more conservative approach to estimate net output.

Unless I am missing something, I's thus say you can expect 2,000 kWh at most from such a 1,500 W turbine. It's the same order of magnitude for sure, but it does have an impact on your rate of return.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 08:01:28 AM EST
3500 kWh with a 1500 W turbine seems optimistic.

Methinks Migeru meant 3500 kWh with two 1500 W turbines.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 08:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think that domestic wind power could ever replace the existing power infraestructure in the industrialized world.  However I think that in the parts of South America and Africa where there are not existing power infrastructures the economic changes so that domestic wind power could electrify many small villages.

In the developed world, I think that domestic wind power could be lot more effective in the US than in Europe.  Back in the late 70's/early 80's many, many people put in solar panels on their roof for water heating, and a little electricity generation.  Given that the average American home lot size is larger, there's the pontential for more power.  And, domestic wind power while unable to replace base load facilities (ie coal plants) could free up dirtier fossil fuel based power production for peak loads during the hot summer months, avoiding the need to build more power plants.  

This is a great policy option for lawmakers given the debacle that the peaking power plant/merhant power plant movement by Enron et al turned out to be. Freeing up that coal production that normally goes to power generation for base load plants, would create more capacity to make coal oil for automobiles.  Together with other forms of renewable energy, domestic wind could be way to tackle the serious oil addiction that the US has.

Hint, hint, Jerome.  Maybe you and Migeru should share this with us American cousins.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 08:53:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. I saw statistics that there are 75 million owned homes in the USA. Let's ignore that there are regions not windy enough for small wind (tho', homes in regions with strong winds may balance those). If each installs a 1.5 kW turbine that produces 2000 kWh a year, that's 150 TWh a year in total. The USA consomes something above 4000 TWh a year now - that would be less than 4% for domestic wind.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 09:27:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US can get more out of wind than Europe because wind energy is an extremely thinly concentrated resource and the population density of the US is less than 1/3 that of the EU. Land is cheap in the US, and many people own single-family homes with some small amount of land.

Let me throw another order-of-magnitude calculation out there for others to poke holes in.

Wind generation seem to have a nominal efficiency of up to 20 W per square meter. It shouldn't be too hard to extract an average of about 1 W/m^2 of wind energy, even compatibly with other land uses, and this is still 1 MW/Km^2.

London has a population density of 4700 per square kilometer, for 200 W per person. The UK's population density is about 240 per square kilometer, for 4 Kw per person. The EU's population density is half that of the UK.

Manhattan has a population density of about 25 thousand per square kilometre, for 40 W per person. NYC is overall half as densely ppulated. NY state has a density of 155 per square kilometre, for 6 KW per person. The US has a density of 30 per square kilometre, for over 30 KW per person.

I am not saying that we should be turning our entire land into wind farms, but that localized energy generation from wind is definitely worth considering. A 1m-diameter turbine with a nominal output of 400 W may seem like a toy, but it can produce enough power to keep a single person comfortable (and even to keep them online!).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 06:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Slightly updating I once wrote to asdf:

The AWEA website's FAQ has a table on wind potential in the windier US states. For reference, the US electricity production (which due to losses is usually higher than consumption unless there is significant net import) is 4,000 terawatt-hours (TWh) per year, and generating capacity gets close to 1,000 GW - so there you already see a potential exceeding demand. (Precise numbers for 2004: 3,970.6 Twh was produced, net import was just 11.3 TWh; generating capacity was 962.9 GW.)

However, this table, like the entire FAQ, is a bit outdated (the table is 1991 data). For an up-to-date estimate, I'll do some calculation. I start from this Stanford study, which looked for wind potential at higher altitudes than earlier studies, in line with the increase of wind turbine tower height since. They found "that U.S. windpower at 80 m may be substantially greater than previously estimated. It was found that 21% of all stations (and 39% of all coastal/offshore stations) are characterized by mean annual speeds >=6.9 m/s at 80 m, implying that the winds over possibly one fifth of the U.S. are strong enough to provide electric power at a direct cost equal to that of a new natural gas or coal power plant."

That's about 2 million square kilometres. Now, assuming 2 MW turbines which are placed at a typical density of 3.5/km^2, and which all produce only at a 25% capacity factor (hence 4.4 million kWh per year), the full potential would be 30,800 TWh per year, and generating capacity 14,000 GW. That is, an eighth of the one fifth of the US land surface suitable for wind power development (or less than 3% of all) would be enough - and that can be done easily even if inhabited areas, natural reserves, bird-nesting areas and bird migration routes are avoided.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 14th, 2006 at 09:40:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Inhabited areas should be used, though. Given the losses in transmission, localized production saves as much energy to the utility as it does to the end user.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 14th, 2006 at 09:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed, but my calculation only considered MW-scale wind power working in favorable wind 80 m high. I gave an estimate of the US potential of domestic wind generation downthread, getting at only 150 TWh; though it could be much more if multiple rotors can be installed in large gardens. (I have no clue as to the average area of an estate a suburban home is built on.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 14th, 2006 at 09:58:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just use google earth ;-)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 14th, 2006 at 09:59:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say anecdotally, that the average suburban home sits on a half acre of land, so roughly 2500-2600 square meters.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Feb 14th, 2006 at 11:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks!

Now that's really big! Here 500 m² is a sizable suburban estate.

If I assume no prevailing wind directions, on 2500 m² there is place for 12-13 2 m/1.5 kW turbines! Or one single 7 m/18.5 kW turbine.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and that would make 1850 TWh a year - now that's something already.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to learn Land Use policies in the US is straight from Cloud Cuckoo-Land.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 12:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With my suggested 5-radii-from-the-edge-of-the-lot planning regulation, those 2500 square metres allow up to a 10m-diameter turbine. That's 37.5 KW (nominal).

By the way, time to take this diary off the front page?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 05:26:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Done.

I can't agree to your planning regulation proposal.

I repeat that a 7x3 placing is only good where you have prevailing wind directions (where it is very unlikely that wind blows in a direction more than 70 degrees off from the mean direction). Elsewhere, you have to take at least 7 rotor diameters from any neighbour, to stay out of the wake - or more.

Examples: in the Horns Rev off-shore park in Denmark, 80 m rotors are 560 m away (exactly 7 rotor diameters) in slightly slanted rows that are also 560 m away (hence 49 d² per turbine); the Kentish Flats off-shore park in Britain has 90 m rotors and a 700 m (hence 7.77..) triangular spacing - note that the latter solution allows a much higher density (26.2 d² per turbine).

Furthermore, I note that on your 5 m x 20+ m lot, especially if wind blows perpendicular to the length of your lot, You could only install 0.35 m turbines with a simple zoning law. But if, say, the provision is to allow your neighbour to eventually build turbines that will form a triangular pattern with yours, you can have 1.4 m turbines (2-3 of them) in parallel-to-the-street placement and 0.8 m turbines (4 of them) in parallel-to-long-sides placement. (Note that both the power of the turbine and the area needed around a turbine are proportional to the square of the radius - hence, turbine size doesn't really matter when calculating potential.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 07:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Make the planning regulation 7 radii from the edge, then.

Such a regulation would encourage neighbours to cooperate by pooling their individual plots together, building community and saving money through economies of scale. Plus, something of that sort is necessary to manage visual impact.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 07:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that it's important to segment the wind market into auxiliary domestic wind and larger wind facilities.  

To that end.  I know at the very least in the American Midwest it's very common to see homes with TV antennaes that are 20 ft (20.66 meters) tall, and are typically either mounted on the roof or on tower set on a cement block near the house.  So let's consider that the base.

So that's large enough for a 9 ft(3 mtr) blade, yielding a conservative estimate of 2700Kwh per househld, or something over half a conservative estimate average houshold use of 5000 Kwh.

Coupled with simple steps like banning inefficient light bulbs, that could free up a lot of baseload power now dedicated to powering home for other uses.  And since the "clean power" alternative for generating peaking power (that's when facilities designed to be used only when all the electrical grid is operating at full capacity.) is natural gas, that conserves natural gas that would be used to generate electricty for the home heating market.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 11:41:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some real-life examples from Hungary, which can serve as examples for rather bad wind conditions (average wind speed just above 6 m/s at the best places):

  • Inota: rated 250 kW, 1,458,199 kWh in 56 months [idle for unknown part of that time] => average 35.7 kW (14.3%)
  • Kulcs: rated 600 kW, 5,574,603 kWh in 51 months =>average 149.7 kW (25.0%)
  • Mosonszolnok: 2x600 kW, 2,725,162 resp. 2,763,466 kWh in 32 months =>   average 116.7 resp. 118.3 kW  (19.4% resp. 19.7%)
  • Mosonmagyaróvár I: 2x600 kW, 2,077,034 resp. 2,084,241 kWh in 25 months =>   average 113.8 resp. 114.2 kW  (both 19.0%)

Balancing worse mechanical efficiency and closeness to the ground against generally stronger winds in Britain, 2000 kWh/year should indeed be possible (that would be a 15.2% efficiency factor).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 at 09:13:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
that interests me very much, for practical reasons, because there's plenty of scope to consider an installation here.

One obvious noob question - do the windmill prices that are being quoted include batteries and other load balancing?

I'm hoping someone is going to say 'yes' because having to pay for those separately would obviously skew the break-even time in the wrong direction.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 07:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm afraid the answer is "no". The guy in southwark had to pay as much for a DC-to-AC inverter as for his little 1.2m turbine.

On the other hand, if you have an inverter you just need to be able to feed any excess back into the grid.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 07:55:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My guess is no, it doesn't contain it.

On the other hand, you don't need standalone systems in countries with feed-in laws, where the network owner is obliged to buy your surplus electricity at a guaranteed price. Regrettably, that doesn't include Britain.

The effect of generous feed-in laws shown by the example of another type of home-based electricity generation: German photovoltaic solar cells experienced a giant boom in the last two years - there is now more capacity installed than wind power in Britain! (I shall write a diary about this over the weekend.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 08:01:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Considering that my electricity provider does not even read my meter, but estimates my quarterly consumption and then expects me to call them with accurate readings so they can charge me the proper amount...

Considering also that the UK is thinking of introducing mandatory water metering...

Considering that the UK is running out of North-Sea oil and needs as much domestic electricity generation as possible...

Considering that localized production of electricity saves all the transmission losses...

...it wouldn't be too much to ask that the UK force electricity providers to allow feed-ins.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 08:22:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But, you haven't considered Bliar :-) :-(

Considering also that the UK is thinking of introducing mandatory water metering...

Huh!? So how do you pay for water now?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 09:03:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm still pinning my hopes on the Liberal Democrats, despite their opinion on the EU Services Directive.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 09:26:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the problem. Some proper leadership, instead of grandstanding, would be a good thing now.

Digging around I found this. (Useful to those with lathes...)

Windmill DIY

Regulator and battery bank design could be a DIY job. The big problems are the large stack of lead and acid that seem to be needed, and persuading the power people that you can connect power back to their grid. I'd guess that last one will, sadly, be the showstopper for most of the UK. (It can be easier in the US, apparently.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 09:33:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about using a stack of car batteries?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 09:34:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A similar build-your-own-turbine page from the British Wind Energy Association.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 09:37:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a website claiming that rooftop wind turbines are a load of nonsense, with links to other sites that have carried out performance studies of small wind turbines.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 12:39:54 PM EST
I have no clue where to start searching, but I recall I read of a rooftop small wind project not by a questionable entrepreneur but some Dutch research agency or university. Nomad, if you're around, maybe you heard of it?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 08:34:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pretty impressive! Even if they can't hit 15%, providing 10%, or even 5% of a home's use through rooftop wind could take a big chunk out of the power problem. Combine this with more efficient home appliances, lighting, insulation, etc, and you've knocked a great big hole in the power problem!

Remember, we aren't going to find One Big Solution. We're probably going to wind up with a lot of little solutions.

by Egarwaen on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 11:36:29 PM EST
In comparison to the windmill farms in Kansas and Colorado and New Mexico, the wind basically doesn't blow here in town. Out there on the prarie you're talking about a CONSTANT, STRONG, STEADY wind. It's actually sort of amazing how strong it blows out there. It just never stops, and is comparable in strength to those really strong winds that you get sometimes at the beach--AVERAGE monthly speeds in the range of 20 MPH.

Here's a pretty comprehensive brochure on the topic.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/windpoweringamerica/pdfs/small_wind/small_wind_co.pdf

Even ignoring the problems of tree interference, zoning laws, etc. there is no way that domestic wind generation would work for me.

I could have solar panels on my roof, and will get to it at some point. Here in the Southwestern part of America it is completely practical to heat all your domestic water by the sun--even in winter...

by asdf on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 12:36:36 AM EST


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