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Finland buries its nuclear past

by Sven Triloqvist Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:31:46 AM EST

I'd like to draw your attention to this article from BBC online.

It describes how Finland will bury nuclear waste. Building work has begun.

It is designed to be safe for way past the 100,000 years of radioactivity, and to withstand the weight of 3 kilometres of ice from the next ice age.

The huge cost is supported by a levy on electricity sales that has been in place for some years now. That fund is already at 1.3 bn €.


bumped because the thread is still alive...

Display:
Excellent article except for the usual Greenpeace fundie.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 07:18:17 AM EST
Greenpeace is not contributing in this matter, to express it weakly. "Not proven." *snort * What ya gonna do - wait for the next ice age to test these pressures? Wanker.

If there's any European country in which I must put faith in its geological bedrock to store nuclear waste, it would be the Nordic ones. The Baltic shield is as geologically stable as they come, as opposed to Yucca mountain... (Not that this would make Yucca a bad gamble, but in a geological sense, the future prospects of Yucca are a lot more unstable, being slap bang nearby the Basin and Range faulting of West America.)

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 07:41:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I always feel like asking the Greenpeace types 'ok, what do you suggest that we do with the existing nuclear waste?'

It sometimes seems that they try to prevent the historical waste problem from being solved because then the main argument against new nuclear power plants ('what do we do with all the waste?') evaporates.

Sort of like the Republicans not really wanting to get rid of abortion because, without their main rallying issue, they mihgt be unable to mobilize their base.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 07:45:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. I'd also like to add that no matter what way we choose to produce our energy, it comes with a price tag one way or the other. So, short of us all going back to living in caves, something's gotta give...and even then, I'm not sure of the ecological impact if we all heat our caves with burning wood...

Not to go off topic, but if Republicans really wanted to get rid off abortion, sex ed in schools and readily available contraceptives (including morning-after pills) would be a good place to start...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 08:13:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But even if you want to go back to living in a cave, you still have to do something about the existing nuclear waste. What?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 08:15:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Decorative lighting in the caves?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 08:16:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or we could use it for heating, minimising the negative ecological effects of woodcutting for fuel to heat the caves. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 08:18:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You'd commented on the link last night - but I still think it is worthy of bringing to the general attention of ET.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 08:56:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As a matter of fact I was going to make a diary about it myself, but thanks to you I didn't need to. :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 09:01:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But why don't we dump nuclear waste into volcanoes, to let inverse lava flow take them deep, deep beneath the Earth's surface to be dismantled by extreme pressures? (in well-chosen volcanoes only). Is it worth considering? I just thought of this, and googled to see that it's already discussed. Damn, I thought I was well on the way for a Nobel prize. I googled to find that Philippe Jean Coulomb, from the University of Avignon and vice president of the Precaution Principle Commission, is one of the fathers of this idea. I must find him and kill him.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 12:54:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Btw you've got to love that guy's name, Coulomb ...
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 12:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe that my Localized Black Hole (LBH - with an event horizon of 4 microns diameter) solution is preferable.

By my calculations, a 200 kilo payload (continuous) could be dispatched to another dimension with ease.

Sadly, Project leader Dr Hans Dröppeldorf died during initial testing. He was standing rather too close to the event horizon in a display of bravado. "This is going to make me a star" were his last words before the big switch-on.

We now stand well back.

Alex, we could, if you would like, invite Mr Coulomb to a demonstration of the LBH. Get him too stand a little too close. And the best thing of course is that all evidence is destroyed.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 01:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hehehe
But man, I'd rather entrust the waste (and Mr Coulomb) to David Copperfield than allow anyone to build a black hole on Earth.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:18:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you built a micro black hole anywhere on Earth, it would instantly start dropping towards the centre of the Earth, overshoot, and then bounce from the centre to the surface and back again while drilling a little tnnel along its path and growing as it ate the matter in its way to make the tunnel. Not fun at all.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is that we use dunk tectonics and frikkin huge magnets. ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the size of the magnets but what you can do with it that matters.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Finnish magnets with more pull than push.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 04:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, the Large Hadron Collider near Geneva (at CERN, the last of the super accelerators), plans on delivering a regular stream of micro black holes if current models are true.

According to Stephen Hawking's findings on the thermodynamics of black hole, they are not black at all. They radiate, and the smaller they are, the hotter and more intense the radiation. So if they are small enough and not fed fast enough, black holes actually explode.

At some point, the "Gamma Ray Bursts" from deep space where shown as evidence that primitive black holes (born from density variations at the big bang), would blast back their mass-energy from time to time. It turned out that super-super-novae are an easier explanation.

Back to the LHC black holes: they cannot explode with more power than what you put in creating them (not much by macroscopic standards), and their lifetime is so short that they have no time to exit the detector at beam collision point.

Even if one were to move a bit further on, its diameter is so small (and its absolute weight to) that its efficient collision diameter with matter would be nil: it would fly through matter, between electron and nucleus, with a gravity pull far below the electromagnetic force that binds them into atoms. So it couldn't eat any, and would not be able to compensate for mass lost in radiation. Eventually, it will still explode after a shord dash.

Pierre
by Pierre on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 04:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is ET working at its beautiful best.... ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 05:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 05:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The honest view is that nobody has a clue what the endpoint of Hawking radiation is.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 06:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lots of physicists have their pet theories about "new physics beyond the standard model". Depending on who you ask, they'll tell you a completely different fairy tal about what the LHC will find. The truth is that they have no idea.

Micro black holes is one of the possible "exotic new physics". Other people say that supersymmetric particles will be found. Everyone expects the Higgs boson to be found, but even in that case they don't know what variety of Higgs boson (of the many that are possible in theory) will be found.

Theory has been "ahead of experiment" for over 30 years now, which is a kind way of saying there has been no substantial experimental input, and nothing incompatible with the standard model (including neutrino oscillations). It's a pitiful state for a scientific field. If the LHC does not find some "exotic" physics, theoretical high energy physics will die of success.

The most enticing evidence of "new physics" is coming from relativistic astrophysics and cosmology.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 06:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly. And if MBH at LHC turn out to be bigger a problem, we may no longer have to worry about peak oil. Nice ;-)

BTW, some folks are finding new ways of studying ultra-high energy particles in the decay chains of cosmic rays entering the earth atmosphere. Here's a link to a webcast of an excellent public conference on this (in french only):

Le Problème des Rayons Cosmiques d'Ultra-Haute Energie

The whole series are quite good: Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris

Pierre

by Pierre on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 10:28:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nomad, would it make sense to bury the waste in a subduction zone?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 02:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The bad thing with all these ideas of shooting the spent fuel (aaah...) into the sun or in a subduction zone or whatever is that it lacks retrieveability.

Sooner or later we'll need the waste to feed our breeder reactors. When you have pushed the uranium through a reactor and spent it, it still contains 59/60 of its original energy. Breeder retrieve the remaining 59 parts.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 06:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If we could find a mechanism which drip feeds the nuclear waste back into the mantle melting pot directly, that would be ideal. Unfortunately, there isn't one right now. The subduction zone dump was better described once by Plan9, but I can't find his post. I'm cautionally optimistic on that one, but would prefer burial where possible.

I'll briefly entertain the notion. On instincts, I would pick the Mariana Trench as one of the better candidates. Not only because of its depth, which gives the nuclear waste some headway, but also because the subduction of the oceanic plate has one of the steepest angles observed. As far as crust instability goes, the Pacific oceanic crust at the Mariana trench can hardly be beaten. (Crust instability has to do with crust isostacy and it is time dependent, related to the growth of the lithosphere. The older an oceanic crust gets, the more it wants to sink back into the mantle.)

Beside the point of retrievability Starvid highlights, there is the problem that dumping the nuclear rods does not guarantee immediate entry. Hence the containers will have to be absolute contamination proof. The option Plan9 posted is in that respect interesting: jettisoning the containesr into the sedimentary accumulated clays which work as a backup guarantee in case the containment barrels crack. I didn't know that option before, but it could solve helping the risks of relative short term contamination.

However... Subduction zones also are know to scrape off whole slivers of soft sediment of the subducting crust. It's a bit of a convoluted subject; they're hard to study. I'd say, at first thought, there's a real risk that the sediment with blobs of rod-containers just get piled onto the ocean floor. Do we want that to be our legacy? In the end (the really long end) this will pose no problem as all oceanic crust gets recycled. I'd like to hear Plan9's view on this, too. I'd think that even if the ocean sediments get sliced off, the radiation levels would have significantly dropped by that time. But still. Not exactly a clean-job in that case.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 11:08:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not all oceanic crust gets recycled. The lucky ones make it on top of a continental crust and could get promoted to become mountain ranges later. Ophiolites would be a good example.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 11:14:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Number 6 on Tue May 16th, 2006 at 06:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru, you are dead right on.

Sweet, sweet irony.
by Francois in Paris on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 01:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you too now....wow

the anniversary of chernobyl, and more and more bloggers here putting down greenpeace, and buying into this delusional craziness.

seems like i'm about the only one here who doesn't think that nuclear power is a bad idea.

lesser of two evils, blablabla

too cheap to meter....

all this money digging holes in the ground...what a metaphor for the denial you  nuke supporters project on people who would rather spend those megabux on conservation.

just...wow

very nice for the corporations decried here so often, that a 'lefty' blog should so heartily endorse the nuclear industry.

flame away... colour me disappointed.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 02:19:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What delusional crazyness? What do you think should be done with the existing nuclear waste?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 02:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Put it with the majority of nuclear waste: ship it to the Sun.

The launch infrastucture required would also provide the infrastructure needed for NEO (Home, home on LaGrange!) colonies.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:11:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But, but... wouldn't that make the Sun radioactive?

I'm afraid given how much noise was made about using a few hundred grams of plutonium for a thermal generator on a NASA probe (what if the rocket explodes on launch and spreads the Pu?) that solution is politically unworkable.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru.  He has a degree - in Science! - wrote:

But, but... wouldn't that make the Sun radioactive?

Yes. And that is the downside -  but ... it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

I know it's not political feasible, and maybe not even practical, but a guy can dream, eh?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you no sensation n your leg? Because it has been pulled ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know.  Migeru was refering to a previous post where I related someone actually said that to me, in for real & earnest.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:41:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If a philologist were to perform textual criticism on ET they'd come oway with a splitting headache, let me tell ya.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to send 3 men and a dog to the Sun. (sorry. Colman). To avoid the problems of extreme heat, they planned to go at night.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 04:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would be the perfect solution but hey, we wouldn't want all of that stuff to fall back onto Earth over a very wide radius because of a loose joint or ceramiac tile.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:20:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or because the rocket was designed using American units and built using English units, or something like that.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have to do a complete re-think and re-design of the whole banana.  

How about a Beanstalk to LEO and Ion-Drives on the other side of the Van Allen belt.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you're asking me what to do with the waste.....? lol!

until someone a lot smarter than me figures it out though, we'd be much better off not creating any more...

flirting with collective species suicide=delusional crazIness.

just sayin'

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 07:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I put down greenpeace because I have not yet seen a waste management scheme that they like, and so I have to ask what is their desired waste management scheme? But they don't seem to have one, now do they?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 07:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
excuse me, but isn't that asking an apple tree to bear oranges?

greenpeace is a truth seeking, activist, public safety watchdog group, who do a lot more than most to courageously head off an increasingly insane set of pseudo-solutions to man-made problems.

not a waste disposal think-tank!

putting them down for not being omniscient is arrogant, imo.

they are heroes, and should be acknowledged as such, not put down for not being what they don't claim to be, or not being what you would have them be.

wassa matter, don't like dolphins?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 09:40:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Grenpeace is, you are correct, not a waste-disposal think tank. However...

If waste is left in the reactors, greenpeace protests.

If waste is moved, by rail or by ship, greenpeace protests.

If waste is buried, greenpeace protests.

If waste is reprocessed, greenpeace protests.

Which leads me to conclude that the people in charge of handling the waste should pay zero attention to greenpeace, as their protest is not constuctive. As a truth-seeking advocacy group, they should seek out and advocate the best solution for nuclear waste. I agree the best solution is not to create any more, but what about the existing waste? That is a question that is never posed to Greenpeace, and I suppose their answer would be "that's not our problem, we didn't make the waste". Which is very helpful.

I like dolphins, "save the whales" is an entirely different game. Conflating the two is muddling the waters.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 10:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
its greenpeace's job to make us aware of what others would rather have hidden, such as transport of toxic stuffs through populated areas.

once again you decry greenpeace for not having solutions to the waste issue....

i find this obtuse and negative.

let others whose job it could be find solutions, sorry but your argument is made of straw .

or do you just slag off greenpeace for kicks?

criticise those who gave us the waste, not those who seek to wake us from our narcolepsy, and i would support your comment.

it's like your sneering at greenpeace, and they are heroes to me, so i feel duty-bound to point out the fallacious logic you are employing.

misdirected...that's all.

apples and oranges!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:16:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not aware of any proposed solution that Greenpeace hasn't opposed vociferously. I am not sure any more that there is actually a solution to the waste problem satisfactory to greenpeace.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think they make a point of opposing ALL solutions on principle, to make nuclear plants such a mess to manage that no more will be built.

I've seen this with my oil pipelines - some NGOs are opposing all pipelines on principle, because they only feed our oil-based economy and contribute to corruption and economic inequality where they are. So no matter how reasonable the proposed solutions are, they will be opposed.

While I agree to an extent that "oil is evil", I don't see this as the way to go. Our oil civilisation will change when we tackle demand, not supply.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:31:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And with this we get back to my original point, that so disappointed melo
It sometimes seems that they try to prevent the historical waste problem from being solved because then the main argument against new nuclear power plants ('what do we do with all the waste?') evaporates.

Sort of like the Republicans not really wanting to get rid of abortion because, without their main rallying issue, they might be unable to mobilize their base.



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:37:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Citizen protest without offering solutions is fine by me. Such protest can energize a debate. What citizen protest means is "we elected you (or paid or otherwise gave responsibility) to solve this - get on with it", A citizen protest is about the lack of solutions.

In the case of expert organizations (such as Greenpeace) with access to wide range of professional expertise, and the ability, at least, to scientifically collate all parts of the argument, their failure to support the best of existing solutions, or perhaps come up with a new one, reveals IMHO a political problem.

That political problem is funding. Certain positions have to be taken in order to retain such funding.

Though Greenpace may not be a 'think-tank', my impression is that in all other areas of concern to them they have proposed solutions. Why not here in the nuclear waste disposal debate?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 12:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
maybe because there aren't any satisfactory ones!

there are only more or less controversial ones, afaik.

as for oil, i see the ngo's point, although the damage to the environment and human health of feeding further oil dependency may be as bad as nuclear waste and accident fallout at the end of the day, it should not be an either/or, but rather a neither/nor.

as jerome brings it back into perspective, i fully agree. if we took conservation and elegance of solution to be the guidelines, we would look first to conservation, then to gradated lesser-evil answers.

whereas many of you may find my views blue-sky or utopian, i find the passive acceptance of the inevitability of the 'french solution' to scale up and sort the global human energy equation to be dangerous in its skirting of the need to break down our requirements to those which are truly essential, before handing over the keys to the bechtels and westinghouses of centralised, top-down, reliably mendacious energy rentiers, none of whose track records inspire a fraction of the trust i would want to feel, regarding future generations and our responsibility to passing on a liveable planet to them.

we in the west have set a terrible example, and now the new superpowers see no need to think more rationally than we did.

what has almost done us in, as practised by much less than half of the world population, will certainly be unsustainable as the rest follows suit.

the most likely scenario is that mother nature has timed the end of fossil fuels to coincide with our awakening as a species to the life-and-death choices and responsibilities we face, and how we could and should live equitably in a world of finite resources.

setting the wheels in motion fto finance, locate, justify to the already jaded and burned public, the number of nuke plants that would be needed to make a dent in our fossil fuel addiction, will deliver a very polarised choice to an ever more savvy and sceptical public.

my bet is that the world will move much more smartly towards cutting demand, and creating new, 'soft' solutions to challenges energy corporations will repeatedly try to snow us into accepting.

i remember the cognitive dissonance i experienced through the eighties, when the media was busily misinforming us about how solar was a dodgy, unreliable source, yet increasingly PV panels were popping up on all sorts of places, from lake buoy nightlights, to traffic signals.

a perfect metaphor is the drm efforts to sequester intellectual property versus the bit-torrent model.

one is elegant and liberating, the other a dinosaur that has called the shots for a long while now.

one insure-able, the other not...

it is greenpeace's job to knock holes in projected plans for waste disposal, and to alert us to the self-serving conniptions, greenwashing and propaganda those who claim to have solutions are not above using.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 08:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
maybe because there aren't any satisfactory ones!
And you say this on the basis of what, exactly? Please explain the criteria for a "satisfactory" solution to the problem of the existing nuclear waste.
as jerome brings it back into perspective, i fully agree. if we took conservation and elegance of solution to be the guidelines, we would look first to conservation, then to gradated lesser-evil answers.
Yeah, energy conservation is going to take care of the waste.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 09:55:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am fully with you on the intellectual property question. I could see all artistic activity dealt with as with cooking.

But Mig has consistently raised the question not of nuclear power per se, but of what to do with all the 100,000 year waste that is currently stored in less than ideal circumstances. There have been no answers to that little problem yet - or even acknowledgement that it is a problem that requires a solution.

I equate that failure to the Catholic Church's failure to see contraception as a life and death problem in areas ravaged by AIDS; instead insisting that it is a moral problem.  Pragmatism v Dogmatism.
How many millions have to die before pragmatism overcomes?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 02:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If they proposed solutions rather than posturing, they would have to accept some sort of responsibility. "Like, don't want to become part of 'the Establishment' and harsh my buzz, man."

(Yeah, I'm unfairly exaggerating for effect. But somehow we will survive withouth the panda bears.)

by Number 6 on Tue May 16th, 2006 at 06:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Aah! Closure!
by Number 6 on Tue May 16th, 2006 at 06:51:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, groundhog day.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 16th, 2006 at 06:53:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're not alone melo!  I am absolutely against the Nuclear Power industry as it exists.

I also fully support a international co-operative research project into fusion power.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't set nuclear waste in stable rock near the surface of a land mass; sink it near a deep-ocean trench instead, let plate tectonics gradually roll the nuclear waste into the mantle...which tends to be a bit more radioactive, anyway.

If there's leakage, it's bad no matter where the waste is placed. In my opinion, better eight kilometers down in the ocean than eight kilometers up into the sky.

I think there are a few hundred thousand people in northern Ukraine who'd concur.

Have Keyboard. Will Travel. :)

by cskendrick (cs ke nd ri c k @h ot m ail dot c om) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 04:48:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nomad, I was hoping you'd see this and comment. Is Finland not built on solid Pre-Cambrian rock? Supposedly the oldest exposed rock on the planet - but you'll no doubt correct me ;-)

Just driving through Finland, where the highways often cut through solid granite, you can see what a thin sliver of life there is on the surface of the bedrock.

Out in the archipelago I am always amazed to see smooth soilless rocky islands with tiny stunted trees - life seems to find a way using the build up of dirt in cracks etc.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 08:55:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I've to steal some off your glory there. It's far from the oldest. You're on a mad competition course with Denmark (Greenland), Canada, Russia, South Africa and Australia, among others.

The oldest gneisses I know of are visible at an outcrop beside the main motorway leading out of Mbabane in Swaziland. But time moves fast; perhaps they identified an older one by now...

But Pre-Cambrium, you bet your pants. Stable as... as... well, a rock. At the structural geology group in Utrecht, they work mostly in Norway, but also Lapland is in the spotlight. There's an interesting new tectonic phenomena developed by the group based on what they pry out of the rocks in Scandinavia from the Caledonian Orogeny: dunk tectonics they call it. It has been causing somewhat of a stir among the structural crowd as it upsets the idea that the process of subduction and getting rid of crustal material is far too simple a model.

Baltica was a big orogeny player in geologic history: Here's a snapshot of what they think the globe looked some 400 plus million years ago. Spot your beloved Finland...

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 01:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great! Another mind-boggling Utrechtian phrase to slip into my conversations.

It was really gneiss of you...

I would guess that Finland is somewhere a little to the east of Greenland?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 01:45:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Scotland also has some very old rocks, from the same general period.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...we shouldn't forget great Britain. After all, when it's empire crumbled, they lost practically all countries with the very old rocks.

The rocks in Scotland from the Baltic Shield are European mainland traitors. They decided to stick with England during the breakup of Pangea, some 60-80 million years ago. The most northern highlands of Scotland are mostly made up of the Baltic Shield, and all the way to the south there's a suture zone with the rocks from England and the former Iapetus Ocean, I've heard that doing a north-south cross section is quite spectacular. Even more spectacular is that the famous stretched glens could be on top of ultra-old shear-zones that were re-activated again and again in their geologic past. This is not proven, but it's fascinating to muse about. Even without such esoteric thoughts, the Great Glen Fault is worth to be put on the "What I Need to See Before I Die" List for geologists.

And as I always say, there's a sound geological reason why British politics is so focused on the Anglo-American relation: if it wasn't for the failing rift in the North sea (the one that led to the copious oil & gas reservoirs), the UK would've been one of the islands nearby Maine, or nearby. Instead, the rifting continued west of the British Isles, and here we are today...

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 09:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and where were you when the Vishnu Schist hit the Alluvial Fan?

I think the very (to my ear somewhat nervous/testy) levity of this discussion highlights a problem that worries nuke skeptics,  including myself:  a seemingly feckless, boyish/macho enthusiasm for "technoniftiness" and a callous, we-know-what's-good-for-you-so-shut-up contempt for other (lesser?) people's concerns.

Greenpeace like any other embodied organisation has its problems, but it has been on the right side of many conflicts of interest over the years.  it represents a large and fairly diverse constituency, including sober scientists and idealistic high school kids, worried moms and dads, disillusioned elders, as well as the stereotypical "dreadlocks and crystals" anarcholefties.  and many of this last demographic, in my personal experience, do at least walk their talk -- ride their bikes, live vegetarian or vegan, reduce their consumption;  which I find more palatable than the yuppie couples from Marin who drive their SUV to the park to buy some hemp tunics at the Earth Day Faire.  I could do without the crystals and chanting, but when it comes to BTUs consumed per person I'm more tolerant of the frugal rainbow brigade than of the Veblenesque consumers trying to have their planet and eat it too.

I reject and will go on rejecting the old "do it our way or shiver in the dark / live in caves" meme deployed by the nuke proponents, the coal lobby, the oil lobby, the Bush regime...  that is false dichotomy.  there is a helluva lot of wiggle room between the sultanic lifestyle touted by infinite-growth finance capitalists and "shivering in the dark."   my sense is that it is possible to live a decent life within a sustainable annual energy budget, without resort to yet more Filth Technologies, laying waste to yet more millions of acres of watershed and biotic habitat, etc.  what is needed is systemic change, not just hot-swap plugnplay retooling.

as to what we should do with existing waste, bribing (low income?) communities with hospitals and other goodies seems ironically (or do I mean appropriately) mafiosic.  I think it should be stored in secure, heavily-engineered underground vaults beneath the luxury homes of the executives and directors of Bechtel, GE, and all the other corporations who profited enormously from the nuclear porkbarrel so far and are shoving and jostling even now to snarf up more from the same trough.  if it is not safe enough for their families to live with for the rest of their lives, then why should they be allowed to shove it off on other people's families?  these guys own a lot of real estate in areas with low population densities;  sounds like a perfect risk-minimising strategy to me.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 05:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it's my fault the thread sidetracked.

If you want my serious answer, I'd say that some answers lie in going forward rather than backward.

As an example: the electric noosphere might one day reduce the need for the majority of people to go to work physically or to fly all over the planet for meetings.

We have already discussed here what replacing all domestic tungsten lighting by neon bulbs couid achieve. Or wind power, wave power etc etc.

I don't think many here are against Greenpeace, except when it goes aginst science, I believe we are all solidly against war of all kinds - including the war on 'terrorism'.

And please don't equate American mafioso failures with, for instance, Finland.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 02:24:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do find the idea of giving a community "a heated swimming pool" in exchange for storing high-grade nuclear waste a bit of a joke. If only they were joking...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 04:25:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the rod storage pool perhaps?

oh that's right, sorry, we're not talking about the US here...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 04:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The latest Finnish invention is a plasma burning sub-atmos chamber for the safe and controlled disposal of radioactive resin waste used in the primary circuits of the reactor process (ion exchange)

The ash that is produced is stable and can be mixed with concrete for safe storage.

That is all I know, (or understand) except that VTT - the Finnish Technical Research Centre is building a half scale industrial pilot.

I certainly feel more secure living in a country where 70% or more of CEOs have engineering degrees, and the highest per capita investment in R&D in the world.

Strangely enough, Finnish politicians are 95% 'ordinary people'. By that I mean that you don't need to be rich to enter parliament, you just need the motivation. They get paid a very good government salary - too good perhaps, but rather that than the corruption that one sees in politics in other Western countries. An old friend of mine, a jazz drummer, is now an MP. And you can meet politicians in the street, in bars, in the shops - the foreign minister shops at my local supermarket on his way to his summer cottage. I've seen him carrying his own shopping out to his car - not a guard in sight. (Not that I'm an expert in spotting them)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 05:26:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guess I hit a nerve here. Greenpeace is fine for what they stand for and the world would be a lot worse off without these vociferous groups butting their heads with the industrial molochs. But at a thorough first glance I took, Greenpeace simply know shit (if you'd pardon me the explicit) about geology and geological implications of time and reservoir science. And hence I call their bluff. If you've a contact for me in the USA with more sense, I'd welcome it, but I don't know one in the Netherlands.

I find the case of Yucca mountain in regard to bribing or exploiting communities to use their turf for waste disposal discomforting and share your sentiments there. It reeks of continuous neo-colonialism. But this angle simply cannot be projected onto Finland which has vast stretches of practically deserted land and which has geology that's the closest to the ideal for the nuclear mafia equivalent of pouring enemies into concrete.

I hope you know by now that I completely share your vision of a switch to energy reducing lifestyle. Yet even so, I also feel we should stay realistic enough that we need to fairly consider an energy back-up to our on oil floating world. Can we produce an amount of energy by renewables only, not just for the modern western world even with a major switch in lifestyle, but also for those parts in the world starting to catch on with the computer age? I don't know, but I've enough trust in radionuclear technology - if handled with vigilance and dedicated care by experts not driven by margins of profit - to leave it on my list (for now).

As said somewhere else, the priority of the oil energy switch in practice should be 1) Renewables 2) Conservation 3) Nuclear 4) Coal (gods forbid).

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 10:28:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I support your comments 100%.

Through my work, I know that the very best engineering is applied to the problem in Finland. It is highly regulated - unlike the Chernobyl  case.

Finland haa deep energy problem. There are no natural resources. The Baltic has no tides and few near-shore waves except in storms. Wind farms we have but they are low efficiency. There is a little bit of ground heat and many people are now adding this to their homes as background heating.

So 25% of our electrical energy comes from Russia - from Soviet-era reactors that should probably not be allowed.

Paavo Lipponen (speaker of the parliament and the last PM) today announced he is in favour of a 6th reactor to be built as soon as possible. I personally have no fears of that, but I do question if it is needed. Manufacturing is running down, though there is still steel and other ore processing going on in large scale. The paper and pulp mills have really cleaned up their act over the last two decades and some of them are grid energy-independent.

The problem is more domestic consumption, which we can do something about in terms of lighting, more energy efficient household appliances etc. An apartment block recently built in Espoo, using a unique energy recovery system, saves 70% energy consumption. More expensive to build, but figured to pay for itself in 15 years (probably less now). And, of course, cars, which the Finns love. But more and more I note, outworking is being promoted. Finland is very connected by wireless and companies are warming up to the idea that you can work for them other than in a downtown office. The mobile and software industry is providing the tools to do this.

The bottom line is that winter is cold. There has to be heating. However there is lots that can be done to make everything more efficient. The government is moving to action on this. Finland is the most debt-free country in Europe, a banker told me the other day that Finland could borrow a trillion Euros with affecting our triple A rating. It is time to invest in reducing energy consumption, by education, motivation, law and by investment.


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 12:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The following story was headlined today in London's free Metro newspaper as "bribes for nuclear waste" or something silly like that.
The Business Online: Nuclear storage hosts `should have incentives' (23 April 2006)
Local communities should be offered incentives, such as new roads, hospitals, or a licence fee, to encourage them to create to host the UK's long-term nuclear waste storage sites, the UK's Committee of Radioactive Waste Management will recommend next week.
...
Gordon Mackerron, the committee's chairman, said: "There's a lot of support for the notion that the nation can't impose a solution on a particular location. It's not just a bribe. You have to offer something to compensate them for their willingness to do it and the right to withdraw up until the end


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:07:46 PM EST
The reason this is not "a bribe" is that it is actually compensation for expropriation.

If a community sits on the oldest, geologically most stable rocks in a country, sorry, that's where the long-term repository of nuclear waste is going to have to be. But then you have to adequately compensate the community for using their land against their wishes.

What constitutes adequate compensation is a matter for negotiation.

Then, if we find the process morally unacceptable and the compensation "a bribe" then maybe we shouldn't produce any more nuclear waste, should we?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 04:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
General questions:

Who is researching the problem of nuclear waste disposal?  What is their funding?  Do they have any economic incentives to achieve a result?  

[Gloss: a euro, a yen, a buck, or a pound isn't the only spur to action but financial reward does provide a useful positive reinforcement.]

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 12:19:33 PM EST
both the safety and efficient control of reactors, and also the safe disposal of waste, has been largely driven by state money via such organizations as the Technical Research Center of Finland (VTT) coupled with commercial spin-offs acting within the general VTT network.

The company behind the new plasma burning process (mentioned above) is Finex - a supplier of ion exchange resins used in the primary coolant circuits. As I understand it, they have the classical relationship with VTT where a commercial company pays VTT to solve a problem, and works closely with VTT in developing a solution. (Just as Nokia and a hundred other Finnish companies have worked with VTT).

Over the years VTT has developed facilities that no single company could have - such as the ship tank for testing large scale models of hulls and propulsion systems in a variety of sea and wave conditions, including ice, The azimuth engine now used on icebreakers and trawlers (a propulsion pod that can rotate 360 degrees) was tested in VTT tank tests. There are small scale industrial pilots for all kinds of papermaking processes etc etc

When such a high proportion of Finnish GDP goes into R&D, it gets very expensive. The state has been pushing to cut back on direct VTT funding in favour of more commercially integrated projects. But it is still clear that the commercial rewards stemming from world-class R&D are considerable, if not highly profitable for Finland.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 01:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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