Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Ideology trumping facts (or is it the other way round?)

by Jerome a Paris Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 08:02:42 AM EST

to be read with its twin diary (Ideology trumping facts)...


Green lobby must be treated as a religion

Anthropologists have established how different cultures independently evolve similar myths - familiar stories, such as the myth of the Fall and the myth of the Apocalypse, which meet deep-seated human needs. The Christian tradition describes the temptation of Adam and Eve and warns of the Last Judgment.

In Europe, these stories no longer have the impact they did. Environmentalism now fulfils for many people the widespread longing for simple, all-encompassing narratives. Environmentalism offers an alternative account of the natural world to the religious and an alternative anti-capitalist account of the political world to the Marxist. The rise of environmentalism parallels in time and place the decline of religion and of socialism.

If the title itself of thiat piece of opinion did not make your blood boil, I expect that the comparison to religion and socialism, and the idea that envrionmentalism is about "simple narratives" did the trick... But it's not over.



Environmentalism embraces a myth of the Fall: the loss of harmony between man and nature caused by our materialistic society. Al Gore recounted the words of Chief Seattle, as his tribe relinquished their ancient lands: "Will you teach your children what we have taught our children? That the earth is our mother?"

This lost Eden never existed. Humans have burned and eaten the environment since time immemorial.

Ahhh. It's always been done, so it can keep on being done. One of the nicest, most explicit expressions of the economists' belief in infinite growth.

We need to start posting that old joke again, of a man faling from a plane (5,000m - I'm ok.... 4,000m - I'm okay, .... 1,000m - hey, all's fine and dandy ... 100m - still fine .... 20m - still okay ... 10m, 9m, 8m, 7m, 6m, 5m - hey, I should be able to jump safely from 5 meters).


The Apocalypse myth is equally familiar. Our wickedness has damaged our inheritance and, although it is almost too late, immediate reform can transform our future. Christians look to the Second Coming, Marxists to the collapse of capitalism, with the same mixture of fear and longing.

Environmentalism at first lacked a persuasive Apocalypse myth. The litany of environmental degradation had to confront the manifest fact that many aspects of the environment were steadily improving, with cleaner air, rivers and seashores. The discovery of global warming filled a gap in the canon. That is why environmentalists attach so much importance to the assertion not just that the world is warming up, which is plainly true, but that this warming is our fault, which is less plainly true. The connection between rising carbon concentrations and the growth of modern industrial society provides justification for the link between the sins of our past and the catastrophe of our future.

This man is not reading the Financial Times, is he? Where his own colleague Martin Wolf wrote:


Repent, for the end of the world is nigh. That is a warning one would expect to come from an evangelical preacher or an environmental doomsayer, not from a sober economist. Yet that is, in essence, what Sir Nicholas Stern, author of the British government's new report on climate change, is saying. The tone may be sober, but the conclusion - act now before it is too late - is not.

Hitherto many economists, business-people and politicians, particularly in the US, have argued that, given both the uncertainties and the high costs of taking possibly unnecessary action, the best policy is to wait, see and, if necessary, adapt. The contribution of this report is to reverse that logic. It argues that, given these very same uncertainties and the relatively low costs of acting now, the best policy is action.

How and how convincingly does the review make this case? The answer, I suggest, is: "Sufficiently so."

He's gone religious too. Wolf crying wolf, haha.


Environmental evangelists are therefore not interested in pragmatic solutions to climate change or technological fixes for it. They are even less interested in evidence that if we were really serious about reducing carbon emissions we could do so by large amounts without significantly affecting our economies or our lives. Windmills on roofs and cycling to work are insignificant in practical consequence, but that is to miss their point. Every ideology needs rituals of observance which demonstrate the commitment of adherents.

Business should treat the environmental movement as it treats other forms of religious belief.

What fucking condescending bullshit. Who's against pragmatic solutions? who's agaisnt technological fixes? Those that acknowledge that there is a problem or those that deny it?


Business leaders do not themselves have to believe its doctrines. Indeed we should be wary if they do: business linked to faiths and ideologies is a sinister and unaccountable power. But companies must respect the belief systems of the countries in which they operate, and acknowledge both the constraints these structures impose and the commercial opportunities that arise.

That paragraph is spot on - of coruse there's this slight disagreement on who's spouting ideology andblindly following their faith and who's not. I know that one side is istening to the other, all the time. The reverse is harder to discern, which suggests where the ideology lies, in my mind...

Display:
This one really does sound like a Byzantine theological debate about angels dancing on pinheads: the marketista defending his 200-year-old religion against younger ideas. And I can barely make sense of the mumbo-jumbo.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:24:28 AM EST
Absolutely.. it really sounds as the pagan religion in the Roman Empire... just trying to contain the flood of Christians.

Their mythology has been receding since the 19th century given the post-enlightenment nature of our understand of the Earth cycles...

so either they destroy science and their mythology (which they also need, so I doubt it) or they should try to co-opt the new religion.

Frankly I do not see fighting this new narrative plausible if our knwoledge of Gaia is somehow slightly correct.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:36:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, the irony.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:43:34 AM EST
Am I the only one who thinks this should be front-paged inmediately. Is it me.. or is this the core of the issue? A battle for ideas and for imposing a narrative having fundamental different basic myths as references.

Isnt this the core of their arguements.. for them there is no difference in the "content" of the myth.. what is relevant for them is that we both have them and they want to "beat the crap out of us"?

So, it looks like this diary contains the core of a lot of discussions about our goals here and about how to interact with the broad society (and the set of beliefs some present structures have?).

Am I the only one?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 07:21:37 AM EST
Am I the only one?

No!  You could write a great great diary about this clash of myths...how "truth" is always self-evident to the believer, and the fact piles that are used in arguments (each side has its own fact pile.)

But what's fascinating to me is how strong the green lobby must have suddenly got.  I blame the internet.  The youngsters are no longer watching television and they're all acting like mad hippies and refusing their parent's cherished beliefs.

And thanks for the diary, Jerome!

Now, can we cobble together some interesting questions so that I can ask Caroline Lucas for an e-mail interview?

(She was on newsnight the other evening...it's as if the Lib Dems have bowed out and the Greens are coming up on the outside...)

(Or maybe not ;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 08:50:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and adapted for dailykos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/9/94633/38095

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:04:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem here is conflating of everyone who  thinks that we have an environmental problem that needs something done about it. He's using the religious-ideological end of the Green spectrum to smear the reality-based end in order to justify his, and industry's, ignoring the problem.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 07:44:38 AM EST
My sympathies exactly.

I wish I had been as a succinct when it came to my response to nanne in regard to the spectrum of the sciences... Practically it's the same mechanism at work.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 08:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A little more subtle than that.

He uses the ideological end of the Green spectrum because it is more clear that they have a set of core beliefs and myths...and that those myths have a set of ideas who are not based entirely on the mythical science, so they are easy to identify... and attack

In this way he is able to do a double attack. "The you are not different than the others" works better in this way since he can claim to be still in a position of science if someone attacks him(without actually being in it) and still attack science because they just have myths (different than him). An act of smart jiu-jitsu...no content, pure narrative attack with a double goal in mind.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:56:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This strategy of confusing those who are endorsing religious, i.e., dogmatic, approaches to problems, by the way, can be used to address almost any issue, not just the environmental issue.

Here in the United States it is increasingly clear that our entire government runs on ideology and facts are not involved.

It is good, I think, to have strong opinions, but not at the expense of ignoring data.   Indeed, one should always support one's opinions by appeal to data.   One may risk interpretations of data then, but having the data is essential.  

I note that ignoring data in the business world - including environmental data - will have decidedly horrible effects as well.

All that said, it decidedly true that the extreme problem of climate change and energy will not be addressed by a few windmills and solar cells.   I do not actually believe a "solution" to the problem necessarily exists, but I believe we should be rational in approaching the best avenues of having a solution, should one exist.   The realities are clear enough.   There are a number of people who regard themselves as "environmentalists" who are wholly faith based.   I often encounter such people and note their inability to believe hard numbers that disagree with their biases.

by NNadir on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:09:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

it decidedly true that the extreme problem of climate change and energy will not be addressed by a few windmills and solar cells.  

Not "a few", "a lot"!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Peak windmills and peak solar panels?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:23:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My Peak Silicon warning is now over 1.5 years old... Last time I looked, still actual. Jerome had a story on it not that long ago.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:57:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russ Meyer is turning over in his grave.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to be fair it's a refining capacity issue in the short term and an EROEI issue in the long term as we will never run out of the raw materials.

Ammonia products (the nitrogen component of fertilizer) are in a samilar boat. You can create them from air and water if you have to, the limiting factor is energy availability to run the process.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 05:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But refinement capacity and the "Energy returned on energy invested" are two aspects similar to Peak Oil.

Hypothetically, your ammonia example would even work for oil - given the proper energy required (aka Chinese fingertrap) and know-how. The raw materials are there - just like silicon. The one difference I see is that the raw materials for oil (hydrocarbons) are vastly smaller than those for silicon.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The current Si refining capacity crunch has nothing to do with peak oil or any physical resource limit. It's a simple supply and demand problem for the solar industry which is competing with the extremely volatile semiconductor industry for their basic input material.

Refiners are now responding to explosive year over year growth in solar demand, with predictable lag due to the time it takes to get factories up and running along with hedging risk by waiting to see if solar really was going to take off. As most of these manufacturers are used to dealing with the extremely volatile semiconductor industry (where demand can turn off overnight) some initial reluctance to quickly expand is understandable.

As solar matures the following will probably happen.  Polycrystalline solar production will vary somewhat with the Si demand of the semiconductor industry. Thin film solar tech (which uses very little if any silicon per watt compared to standard photovoltaic tech) will grow to a substantial portion of the market and will be used to produce the remainder of what the polycrystalline market cannot provide, essentially creating an independent supply chain for the solar industry that decouples them from the nasty volatility of the semiconductor industry. In the long run the approximate reverse will be true - some sort of thin film tech will be the primary product, and polycrystalline solar production will be limited to "soaking up" all the spare Si capacity that the semiconductor industry is not using, particularly in times of low demand. Any solar manufacturer that is large enough will produce both for that reason.

The thin film tech coming along is, I think, an attempt to address EROEI even if it isn't intentional or thought of within that framework. Polycrystalline Si that is good enough to make CPUs for your computer is overkill for solar cells and thus there is potential room for EROEI improvement.

Ammonia production, on the other hand (which uses natural gas as a feedstock), is already being directly impacted by peaking natural gas production in North America. Various plants in the southern US have been shut down during periods of high natural gas prices over the past several years.

I only argue this narrow point because the way you present the concept it can be used as a bludgeon by doomers.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 08:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was way out of my league on this subject.

A thoroughly insightful and informative post. Thank you.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:01:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just going to remark that I didn't know afew had gotten into the windmill business too.

...you can throw the pie in my face now.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:25:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've always been something of a Don Quixote.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it decidedly true that the extreme problem of climate change and energy will not be addressed by a few windmills and solar cells.

Alternative energy under capitalism won't address climate change: consider Jevons' Paradox, under which technological innovation just eggs the system on.

Not consuming fossil fuels, though, might do something...

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:58:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Empirical support for Jevons' Paradox is disputed, although I don't know much more than what I link here.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Neo-liberalism should be treated as a religion.


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 07:50:14 AM EST
So now the Neo-Libs have abandoned even the pretence of reason.  


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:16:34 AM EST
We have a pretty good understanding of what a US neo-con is as well as a libertarian.

What is the accepted term for a European true believer in the power of markets or the ability of technology to lead us out of future resource shortages?

These people have a belief system like all ideologues which is resistant to challenge by contrary information. It is not so much a right vs left position as an underlying belief that their way of life is the best for everyone and that future growth will solve all the lingering problems. How about Panglossians?


Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:33:06 AM EST
It's called a "neoliberal".

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:34:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well in the US the term neo-liberal is starting to mean those who were against Bush and the invasion of Iraq, but think some sort of community of nations could take on the reformulated neo-colonial role.

One of the chief spokesmen is John Ikenberry and his Princeton Project on National Security. Here's a link to his web page:

http://webdb.princeton.edu/dbtoolbox/query.asp?qname=facultydetail&ID=gji3

(I should point out that those of us that think this groups ideas are ridiculous use the term neo-liberal, they don't call themselves that.)

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:52:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well in the US the term neo-liberal is starting to mean those who were against Bush and the invasion of Iraq

Is it?  When I think of neo-liberal, I think of Thomas Freidman.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:55:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bingo.

Tom Friedman is a huge neo-liberal.


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Friedman and the addled crew at The New Republic are the original American neo-liberals.

And I'd amend this:

Well in the US the term neo-liberal is starting to mean those who were against Bush and the invasion of Iraq

to:

Well in the US the term neo-liberal is starting to mean those who claim now to have been against Bush and the invasion of Iraq but actually back in 2002 and 2003 were lapdog supporters who excoriated the anti-war left as Chamberlainite appeasers.

by Matt in NYC on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 08:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that goes to the core of the different meanings of "liberal" in Europe and the USA.

In Europe "liberal" derives from the original "laissez-faire liberal". In the US it has something to do with social/civil libertarianism. The reason US libertarians call themselves libertarians (a term which in Europe used to mean left-anarchist) is that "liberal" was taken to include the economic left.

This led to endless fun on the respective wikipedia articles years ago.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:57:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a European true believer in the power of markets or the ability of technology to lead us out of future resource shortages?

I don't think there is an accepted term - that is precise enough, at least. Panglossian is not wrong, but more general. Techno-marketistas flits around from time to time in what passes for my brain, but I don't know if it's any use.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:41:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bloodboiling ideed.

While we can sit around and be exasperated with the bizarre lack of logic and facts in this debate, I'd like to suggest that there actually isn't anything bizarre or tragic about it, the facts are missing for a reason.

This is the new frame, so get used to it.  When they cannot win on the facts, they eliminate them from the debate and assert that everything is a matter of faith.  It is like the argument that ID should be taught next to evolution because they are both a matter of faith.  I believe in evolution; Suzie believes in creationism.  This being a democratic society, we should all be able to have our beliefs.  Turn it around and instead of using the frame to hoist religious belief up to the standing of science, you can use it to lower science to the level of religous belief.  

In both instances we are being told that we should throw out documented facts (pollutions makes people sick, there is a hole in the ozone, icebergs are breaking up, species are disappearing...) and focus only on the unknowns (origin of life, how long we can live with hole in ozone).  Because no one knows the answer, boom, all answers are ideological, not truth, and boom, they are all on par with each other.

The idea that we can use facts to make an educated guess is dismissed when it comes to the issues where those in power (financial or political) rely on the absence of facts to keep that power.  Oddly, no one seems to be outraged when doctors or weathermen make educated guesses based on available facts.  Actually, I think there have been leaders in Africa spouting the same bs, only in response to Aids and its treatment, calling it voodoo.

Anyway...  I don't see capitalism and industry screetching to a halt in our lifetimes.  In fact, some will find ways to profit from the evironmetalist movement.  So they need not be so defensive.  Stick to calling us spoiled young brats who know nothing about the real world and who just want attention.  Like those anti-war protesters who were screaming we shouldn't go to Iraq.  What the hell do we know, anyway?

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:49:45 AM EST
By making this a "my belief vs your belief" (just like the journalists love their "he said, she said" stories), they frame the debate and win it.

Which is why we have to stick our necks in the religious debates and remind them that there is belief (all the fanatisms all put in one big ugly big bag) and reason (and its sidekicks doubt, experiment, logic, facts).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:08:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They are just trying to be "fair and balanced." ;)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:09:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 Jerome. Think about this (I am trying to prozelitize.. so be warned :)

They think that they are the more rational, the more scientific-based, the more "centered"...(oh those corporativist)

And the reason is that "reason" can also be very very fanatic.

We are delaing with the rejection of the following idea: HAving a set of ideas and myths (religious or not) and tryting to obtain in good faith your facts and  take any criticism into the collection of facts.

The disregard of "looking for facts" as imperfect as it is.

Religious people as scientists do look for facts.. using different frames.. but they indeed look for them (most of them).  

Fanatics .. independently of the mythology they defend, disregard the facts... And there are a bunch of them in Science (remember the difference between the radical scientists which makes fun of everything which is not Sicence, and the scientists who knows very well the limits of his framework).

People not interested in facts have all the cards...because they know how to play the game. We should learn how to play this game. We should try to break the barriers that the different frames create between scientists, religious, magic thinking people, enviromentalists, corporatists.. in each group there are people who look for facts (they interpret it, validate it and reflect upon them differently for sure..but they are..well OPEN)..although the frame of reference may create the ilusion that they do not. They have something in common: they follow certain internal logic. They should be our target...

In the same vain, the corporativist in the article is tryign to co-opt at the same time the fanatics anti-green and the fanatics pro-science. See my point?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 01:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is an incredibly good point.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:11:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea that we can use facts to make an educated guess is dismissed when it comes to the issues where those in power (financial or political) rely on the absence of facts to keep that power.

That gets a 24 (which I will really do by giving a 4 to 6 of your comments).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:46:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow. 24. That's a lot. Merci.

I'm very hesitant to discuss what made me think of it in that way, but I have to confess the idea is not completely original...  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 02:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was well said. And we're open source. So if you lifted it from elsewhere (not surprising with all that has been said about the reality-based community and facts etc), then you still get kudos for dropping it in the right place!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 05:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The WSJ has this today:


Justice for a Terrorist, German-Style

The "war" on terror doesn't play well in Europe, where fighting al Qaeda is more likely to be viewed as a job for the justice system. If so, the protracted trial of 9/11 terrorist buddy Mounir el Motassadeq, which ended yesterday in Germany, is not one of the system's finest moments.

Motassadeq was sentenced to 15 years in prison, the maximum possible under German law, for being an accessory to murder in the September 11, 2001 attacks against America. He was a friend of three of the hijackers, looking after their apartments and arranging money transfers and logistics.

(...)

Germany isn't the only Western country to discover that ordinary courts of law, with their rules of evidence designed for civil societies in peace time, are ill-equipped for fighting Islamist terrorism. It took five years to convict Zacarias Moussaoui in the U.S. In Spain, Imad Eddin Barakat Yarkas, accused of having helped the September 11 plotters, was acquitted on appeal. He's serving a 12-year sentence for being an al Qaeda leader.

Germany sentenced the guy to 15 years in jail, followign all normal procedures, letting him appeal, with his lawyers, etc, and that is bad ... how?

He was sentenced to the maximum!

Others were also sentenced, others were acquitted, presumably because there was reasonable doubt. How is this bad? Justice systems at work.

Which tells us what the WSJ wants: bloody revenge, not justice.

But it's the left which is "ideological", "weak" and "bent on the apocalypse".

Sometimes I could scream!


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:18:42 AM EST
These people are dangerous. And we have a bunch of people in government on this side of the Atlantic who can't stop saying that "we share the same values" at every opportunity.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:22:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Under Aznar, Spain raised the highest incarceration time from 30 to 40 years, and made reductions of sentence apply to the sentence, not to the incarceration time (this is relevant because some terrorists got sentenced to hundreds of years in prison, but then they only served 30, 1/3 of which got taken off for good conduct, and stuff like that, leaving 20 - under the new rules, if you're sentenced to more than 60 years you'll serve 40 no matter what). Trouble is, the rules cannot be applied retroactively, so the new law will only have its first noticeable effects in 2022.

For the conservatives, a return to drawing and quartering would be too little, too late.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Copy/pasted on my blog: Justice et terrorisme.
by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to show there's one little chappie who gets the message:

Tony Blair, in the Sky News interview I quoted in Air Fare Blair, says, speaking of emissions from aircraft:

It was a "false argument" to say, that "unless you're prepared to put on a hair shirt you can't really deal with this issue".

This is not accidental. I think they really are concerned that the masses are reaching some understanding of the environmental stakes, and the big money has decided we are just going to go straight ahead as if nothing was wrong. Which means doing a denial number. And how better to do it than accuse the opposition of blind faith in a religious-style ideology?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:56:37 PM EST
It reads almost exactly like a Michael Crichton lecture. The "environmentalism is religion" credo has been the narrative of neo-liberal/libertarian wingnuttery since the Reagan years and like the rest of their framing of the issues, it has found its way into the media.
by Fete des fous on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 08:28:42 PM EST
I don't know about you Jerome, but I'm really fucking tired of environmentalists against nuclear energy. Which does make them "against pragmatic solutions" and "against technological fixes". So yes, I do see environmentalists as religious fanatics.

If you understood the mental disease called Romanticism, introduced here at http://davidbrin.com/tolkienarticle1.html, and that this mental disease afflicts a super-majority of the population, you would be unsurprised that environmentalists are almost entirely religious fanatics. So are economists of course.

Only a tiny minority of the population (about 1/10th says Dabrowski) is even capable of total rational thinking. The rest rely on magical thinking. And magical thinking is the hallmark of religion.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 02:49:07 AM EST
i think all the energy dispensed into religion for millennia....all the mumbling, pontificating, gesticulating, sacrifices, penitence, aspirations etc had been channelled into a religious respect for the environment instead, we'd have a much better world.

in a sense, religion describes awe and humility, which are appropriate emotions for contemplating the power of nature, and our recent comprehension of our own collective power to screw up a fragile balance that has sustained mammalian life for a long, long time.

veneration for the bioshere...works for me.

what i find fanatic is the blind assumption that the oil economy is non-negotiable, or that conservation is impractical...

well it's 'impractical' to try and get between a hungry hog and a trough, or a celebrity and a camera, or a repug and an energy lobbyist, but if their selfishness is threatening the continued existence of our species, we have to try.

or sit back on our hands and watch the trainwreck...

my god....doesn't give too many brownie points for that!

the smaller the footprint, the closer the walk with god....

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:51:20 AM EST
"awe and humility" aren't appropriate emotions with regards to anything at all. Humanity would be best off by shitting on ever sacred image anyone holds dear.

Conservation IS impractical. No advanced economy, least of all the Nordic countries which are the hallmarks of all things environmental, conserves energy to any significant extent.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 08:25:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Conservation IS impractical. No advanced economy, least of all the Nordic countries which are the hallmarks of all things environmental, conserves energy to any significant extent.

Nobody can build a heavier than air flying machine, so no-one ever will.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 08:28:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What conservation is is inconvenient.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 08:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about shitting on your sacred image of an advanced economy?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 08:32:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for this. I go by the old adage of judging people by their enemies. And by that criterion, you do a great deal to reassure me.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 09:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"awe and humility" aren't appropriate emotions with regards to anything at all

Kewl!  Like, dude!

NUCLEAR IS THE BEST.  FUCK YOU IF YOU DON'T THINK SO.  YOU WANT PEOPLE TO DIE AND I DON'T, EVEN THOUGH MOST OF THEM ARE THICK As SHIT, JUST LIKE YOU, COZ YOU DON'T THINK THINGS THROUGH AND ER...

Conservation IS impractical

Of course!  It IS impractical to...conserve.  Not practical...to conserve....What is practical is...to consume everything NOW!

Too cool for words.  You can't expect people to conserve--they're all too fucken stoopid and hard-wired to use and abuse.  Right, so let's give 'em nuclear power.

Or did you mean "to conserve the energy we produce"?  Or...ya know...I still get lost when you start talking about shitting on the shit, or whatever the shit it fucken was.

One might think rationality would include thinking about...ya know...what you say and how it comes across...

Lord, am I still in Nomad's thread?  Sorry Nomad!  I couldn't help myself!

On a serious note, richardk, have you seen this film yet?  I think you'll love it.  Lots of clips at youtube.



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 08:46:55 AM EST
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