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Elephant Poaching & Culling

by Nomad Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:20:43 AM EST

While browsing the headlines this morning, I found this headline: "Price of Ivory Accelerates the Extinction of African Elephant" (my translation).

I thought that immensely interesting, because when I was volunteering in Balule Private Nature Reserve some 3.5 years ago, the common wisdom was that there were far too many elephants. Three weeks earlier I had heard the exact same in my previous volunteering in Tembe Elephant Park.

So I frowned at reading the headline and decided to do a little dig.


The BBC Website also has a recent piece, but without the inflammatory headline and tells you the actual story:

i
DNA tracks origin of seized ivory

A trail of DNA has helped investigators trace the biggest ever consignment of contraband ivory seized since 1989 to savannah elephants in Zambia. Scientists extracted DNA from 37 tusks recovered from the shipment, which was seized in Singapore in June 2002.
They compared this data against a continent-wide map showing genetic differences and similarities between African elephants.

Details appear in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences journal.

Aha! So I went to see whether the article is on-line, as they usually do at PNAS, and by jove! - it is: Using DNA to track the origin of the largest ivory seizure since the 1989 trade ban.

So what are those details done by the study of Wasser et al.?

According to the Beeb:

The 2002 seizure in Singapore consisted of 532 tusks packed in a 20ft container that had been shipped to the Far East from Malawi in south-east Africa. It also contained 42,000 hankos, small blocks of solid ivory used to make signature stamps, or chops, that are popular in China and Japan.

<snip>
The researchers compared genetic sequences from the tusks with those in a database of DNA sequences from African elephants whose geographic origin was known.

The results showed that the ivory came from savannah elephants in a small region of southern Africa, with Zambia as the focal point.

From the article:

The rest of the article rips into a political screed and pleads for the re-enactment of stringent law-enforcement:


The international community virtually stopped ivory poaching once (14), and it can stop it again. The enhanced law enforcement effort that concided with the 1989 ban dramatically suppressed the illegal ivory trade. However, believing that the problem was solved, western aid was largely withdrawn by 1993. Law enforcement rapidly declined in poor African countries, and poaching began to steadily increase all over again (14). A more comprehensive approach is needed this time, one that combines law enforcement with DNA analyses, education, and improved management. We have to act now, before it is too late. We hope that the results of this study will encourage such timely conservation efforts, thereby helping to curb a criminal trade that is once again imperiling elephants.

Even while I'm sympathetic to this position, I must note, from a scientific perspective, that I find it baffling to find sentences as "We have to act now" in a scientific article.

Apart from poaching because people are, you know, starving, there is a cruel irony related to the fact that ivory prices have shot up - because of the China effect, as the article notes itself.

How is there irony? Because I learned in 2003 that then and even today there are massive elephant overpopulation problems to the south of Zambia - as a direct result of successful conversation strategies. Have a search on "Elephant Population" on http://allafrica.com/ to see how many reports actually mention burgeoning elephant populations. Because Wasser is right when he says to the BBC, "Elephants are majestic animals and are not trivial to the ecosystem. They are a keystone species and taking them out significantly alters the habitat."

Right. Now take that the other way around. Since, if you let the elephants in, they will change the habitat. Dramatically. One of the greatest threats to Kruger Park (beside mass tourism) is not reduction of biosphere due to desertification by Climate Change - but deforestation generated by the forest destructive elephants. Elephants open up the terrain and prevent a savannah closing up. They are capable to tear a tree to pieces by ripping of enormous branches or push it over completely. It's an awing sight, especially because an elephants pulls it off with a perfect halcyon demeanour.

People tend to forget that, in the end, Kruger National Park is a park. It has fences. It is finite. It will not allow for migration during overpopulation. It is, in other words, managed to a certain degree. And also: this is Africa. An equivalent policy of building corridors and a pan-African environmental policy such as the current European one does not exist, to the best of my knowledge (but hell, this is only week 4 here, so I'm not that reliable yet).

So you have, say, 6000 elephants too many. Estimates are that in less than 15 years, there will be 24.000 too many. What do you do?

Because now it's time for the C-word.

In May 2005, the southern African nations (among others South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia, Zambia) came together in Victoria Falls and reached the following recommendations:


11. It is recommended that application of lethal means, specifically culling, be approved as partand parcel of a range of options for the management of elephant populations. The
implementation of culling should be informed by the application of adaptive management
principles, while also not excluding the application of and learning from other viable
management options.

12. It is recommended that other management tools such as translocation, contraception and migration corridors be applied as medium to long-term management interventions.

Pdf of report here

The world became almost literally too small. The ferocity erupting in 2005 was reported widely and organizations as Greenpeace and IFAW had a field day in depicting the African velds drenched with gore. Doomed to be an environmental contrarian, I'd like to point out my post at ET in which I previously laid out my view on why culling should become an integral component of managing the elephant over-population for Kruger here.

The inevitable seemed to have happened in the foray of elephant hugging cutesiness. Martinus van Schalkwyk, the SA Environmental Minister, grew silent and dodged the subject ever since. For the whole of 2006 I have not heard anything about the culling proposal in the press and have not been in contact with my South African contingent about this subject. Which is why this diary will need a follow-up one day, since I intend to find out...

South Africa already has a policy to trade in ivory, albeit very strict and very regulated. And here I'm thinking: why not cull, dump the ivory on the market, reduce prices and make poaching financially insolvent, while working on a grander scheme to set up corridors?

But here we are.
We have an environmentally focused scientist bemoaning the rise of poaching driven -partly- by the spike in ivory price.
And on the same continent, not even that far away, we have bulging elephant populations destroying their own habitat.
Now that alone is irony. But when I consider that a (potential?) mechanism to reduce the ivory price by government regulated ivory trade from culling practices was (most likely) snubbed - by western environmental lobby organizations - I begin to severely disconnect.

Could regulated culling reduce ivory prices? Don't know. Want to find out. Any help welcome.

Poll
You have 6000 elephants too many, what do you do?
. Sell them to private owners 0%
. Let the market decide! 0%
. Mmmm.... Elephant steak... 30%
. Operation Elephant Transplant: every continent receives 1000 elephants 60%
. I know something much better, but I'm not telling. 10%

Votes: 10
Results | Other Polls
Display:
Damn, you beat me to this.

Substantive comment upcoming.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:38:35 AM EST
Was really hoping on your view when I wrote this...
by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:49:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say that culling is probably needed, but maybe selling the ivory is a bad idea - it sustains a market.

With "legal" ivory around, it becomes easier to pass some illegal ivory obtained by poaching around.

You don't want an industry based on ivory to grow - it'll eventually need more ivory and demand will create that poaching. Given the poverty levels around elephants, even with lower prices, you'll find willing poachers.

The hard part of course is to convince poor countries of giving up on a well-needed revenue and spend some money preventing  poaching...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:39:08 AM EST
With "legal" ivory around, it becomes easier to pass some illegal ivory obtained by poaching around.

I am not sure this argument has economic merit. With strict (and enforced) certification requirements and a paper trail all the way to the source, illegal ivory would become harder to sell by poachers.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:44:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since we're talking  about trade from Africa to China, are well-enforced strict certification requirements realistic? We haven't been able to enforce it on European Agri-business, after all...

And Africa was the land of the diamond trade, China is the land of the great IP violation.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:15:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
6000 elephants too many out of a population of how many? What is the life expectancy of these elephants, and what is the vegetative growth rate?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:48:04 AM EST
Heed the mathematicians!

Let's sample Kruger National Park from Wikipedia:
Current population (2006): ± 13.500
In 2004: 11,670 elephants (official census)

Rate of change per year: ~900

They estimate Kruger National Park (not the Greater Kruger Area) can hold some 8000 elephants.

On Reproduction:


Females (cows) reach sexual maturity at around 9-12 years of age and become pregnant for the first time, on average, around age 13. They can reproduce until ages 55-60. Females give birth at intervals of about every 5 years. An elephant's gestation (pregnancy) period lasts about 22 months (630-660 days), the longest gestation period of any mammal, after which one calf typically is born. Twins are rare.

I hope that can make you happy.

by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:57:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not to make me happy, it's to estimate the scale of the long-term culling program.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:04:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Estimating the scale of the long-term culling program doesn't make you happy?
by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a necessity, not a choice.

Arithmetic doesn't make me particularly happy, no.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A google search reveals a life span of about 70 years.

Pregnancy for 22 months every 5 years for an average of 47 fertile years means on average about 1/4 of females are pregnant at any given time, and under 1/7 of them give birth on any given year.

Assume a 50/50 sex split among the population and you get a birth rate of just over 1/15 per year.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A birth rate of approximately 1/15 for a total elephant population of 11.670 gives me 778 new elephants a year. Which is slightly off compared to the back-of-the-envelope 900, but considerable enough.

Now extrapolate from 2004 to 2020...

by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's within the margins of error for fertile years, lifespan and male/female ratio.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:53:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, so we're in the right ball-park. If you remove 1000 elephants a year you'll never get to the disaster scenario of 2020.

So, what to do with 1000 elephants this year?

  • sell them to zoos or natural parks elsewhere
  • release them in the wild where there is an interest in restoring the populations
  • cull the oldest/sickest animals
  • allow recreational hunting
How much of each can you do?

And, whatever you do, it's going to cost money to deal with 1000 elephants. If you end up culling them, harvesting the ivory and selling it would cover the costs.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:57:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm still going for the option to give each continent 200 elephants and let them figure out what to do with them...

#  sell them to zoos or natural parks elsewhere

Done that. Almost all parks here are already straining or are at their limit, and as stormy writes below, elephants don't travel well.

# release them in the wild where there is an interest in restoring the populations

In the "wild"? Describe that one please... You mean outside reservation and game park fences?

# cull the oldest/sickest animals & selling the ivory

That's my diary about - now all we need is to convince IFAW and the rest of the world.

# allow recreational hunting

Already happening in Game Parks, but prohibited in SANparks - such as Kruger.

I'm at a loss, honestly.

by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:21:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
# release them in the wild where there is an interest in restoring the populations

In the "wild"? Describe that one please... You mean outside reservation and game park fences?

Yes.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:28:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Though TSP says upthread that elephants sent from South Africa to Mozambique simply "walked back".

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
that comment was about the elephant territorial behaviour and transplanting the elephants in the Great Limpopo area - which has open borders towards SA. I think.
by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the Kenyan model, and even they call their designated areas "game reserves". I don't know, but I don't think a fence-less game reserve will be embraced.

Practically your solution means more designated space for game reserves or to use Melanchton's analogue: a bigger apartment. The creation of game reserves is still happening, but it is often a community effort, making it a long term and only a partial solution to the current problem.

by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:26:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are any Game Parks overpopulated?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 12:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In honesty, this will need a lengthy answer because of the complexities within the Private Game Reserves in SA - which I only barely understand myself. It depends on lots of things.

It also is a good opportunity to tie in the other big controversial topic which has just seen SA regulation (a first step?): canned hunting. But I don't have the time today. So I'll have to settle for the short answer.

The short answer is: not all of them are overpopulated on elephants. Here's a Wikipedia list of the National Parks (most of them regulated under SANparks) and Game Reserves under private ownership.

But not all of the private reserves will take elephants - because of private ownership, and the type of tourism you want to attract for your reserve. If you want to have tourists mountainbiking through your reserve, you're not so eager to introduce (traumatized?) elephants (or big cats or rhinoceros or... you see the point). As I understood it in 2003, the National Parks are getting quite overcrowded in elephants - with Kruger the most acute.

by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 03:19:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rich people love shooting big animals.

So if there are too many elephants around, invite big game hunters to shoot the elephants and demand top dollar for it.

Comparative advantage and all that.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 12:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are some basic safety issues with the idea of hunting in an area that's got lots of tourists running around in their cars....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 02:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing that can't be overcome with regulation. No one who hasn't got a hunting license can shoot, you need to bring local guides, you are not allowed to shoot at the tourists etc.

We have lots of people running around in our forests, shooting 200.000 elks every year. The civilian casualties are usually very small.


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:48:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You may be underestimating the number of tourists we're talking about.  I'll have to go dig up my picture of a traffic jam that developed on a road in Kruger as a herd of water buffalo meandered across the road.  It was pretty impressive.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am sure it was.

But you need quite a lot of hunters to kill 200.000 elks every year, too. We have a higher per capita gun ownership than the US. Practically every male in the northern two thirds of the country is a hunter.

Vision is far better on the savanna than in the forest too. And it should be a lot harder to confuse an elephant than an elk with a Thai berry picker. Or tourist.

With the right regulation and some common sense, collateral damage should be very limited or non-existent.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:56:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Three problems here:
  1. Hunting in SANparks right now is prohibited. Kruger falls under SANparks. Full stop. It will need massive regulation to lift the ban and -that- I'm sure will erupt another global environmental firestorm by organisations who will threaten to stop funding if they announce plans to lift the ban. Funding which was still needed (at least in 2003). In other words: conversation practice in SA can (but not necessarily always) be hostage by the whims of western environmental groups.

  2. You don't shoot an elephant as "easily" as an elk. (Note that I'm well aware that a good shot at an antelope takes considerable hunting skill.) You will need training, you will need extensive supervision and they will charge you extraordinarily (~$10.000 or more for one elephant which is -only- the trophy fee). Shooting an elephant is only reserved for the Cheney's - the super-rich who want to. As a solution to the elephant overpopulation, I can't see how it could work.

  3. Echoing stormy's point: tourists. The only solution I can see right now is to restrict areas for hunters only. But as I see it now dealing with tourism appears the minor issue.
by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:08:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Market it as adventure tourism.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:29:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In other words: conversation practice in SA can (but not necessarily always) be hostage by the whims of western environmental groups.

I can't find a pic of it, but there is a sign near my house, I think it's painted on a wall.  It says:

You Are Now Entering The Brighton Laines Conversation Area

...which I like...that someone painted it...then maybe a few days later...or months later...stood back, looked at it, frowned...then...slaps head with hand!

...but I liked the idea that it was, indeed a conversation area...too.

;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:34:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was hoping no one would notice... I'm starting to rely too much on the spell-checker that comes with Firefox. And since conversation is a perfect English word...

Ack!

by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:52:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Impressive may not be the word I'm looking for. Ghastly gets closer.

From Wikipedia:

by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 03:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 03:32:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just make sure you don't allow Cheney to hunt there.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 05:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not consider the overpopulated natural park as a "free-range (certified organic!) elephant farm"?

Define a band below the sustainable elephant population in the national park.

If the population exceeds the upper limit, institute a populaion control program.

If the population drops below the lower limit, stop population control.

Harvest the ivory from elephants dying of natural causes, as well as those culled. and sell it on a regulated market. The kinds of contracts traded on modern commodities markets would allow for definition and enforcement of standards preventing poached ivory from making it into the market.

Now for population control:

  • release animals in the wild in order to repopulate other countries if they so wish
  • transfer animals to zoos or other natural reserves (especially mating pairs as seeds)
  • cull the oldest or sickest animals at the vegetative growth rate
  • allow and regulate recreational hunting - for instance one is not allowed to kill juveniles, tranquilizer rounds are used and the hunted animals culled humanely, etc.
  • harvest the ivory from those animals dying in the last two cases.


"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:03:16 AM EST
Oh, another culling measure:
* introduce natural predators for Elephants (i.e., lions) into the reserve

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:05:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Man is the elephant's only natural predator.  There are plenty of lions in Kruger, but lions don't generally hunt elephants... unless they're crazy lions....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:10:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia says "humans and, occasionally, lions".

Can hungry lions hunt old or sick elephants, or juveniles?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
amazing. And now it has been observed that dolphins can pass on new techniques to a whole population - who knows what would've happened with the lions if there hadn't been fences...
by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:52:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Picking out the weak, doing enough damage to stop it, relying on huge numbers to do the job and then a slow, inefficient kill? Sounds almost human.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh sure you can draw up nice culling programs, with the help of statisticians, tracability, and other wonderfully modern tools.

But :

The air explodes with the sound of high-powered rifles and the startled infant watches his family fall to the ground, the image seared into his memory. He and other orphans are then transported to distant locales to start new lives. Ten years later, the teenaged orphans begin a killing rampage, leaving more than a hundred victims.

A scene describing post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in Kosovo or Rwanda? The similarities are striking - but here, the teenagers are young elephants and the victims, rhinoceroses. In the past, animal studies have been used to make inferences about human behavior. Now, studies of human PTSD can be instructive in understanding how violence also affects elephant culture.

...

Elephant sociality is both strength and a weakness. As with humans, an intact, functioning social order helps buffer trauma. But as human populations increase, more elephants are likely to live in environments characterized by severe anthropogenic disturbance. Current methods for conserving both wild and captive elephant populations fail to preserve elephant social systems.

by balbuz on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:41:00 AM EST
Link to source?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:43:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I hit the Post button too soon. Article here.

Google for BRADSHAW and ELEPHANT BREAKDOWN : The elephant societies are breaking up under the stress.

by balbuz on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:44:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So really you need to take out entire herds rather than thinning out all the herds?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:46:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NY Times :
By CHARLES SIEBERT
Published: October 8, 2006
...

In recent years, however, those [human-elephant] relations have become markedly more bellicose. Just two days before I arrived, a woman was killed by an elephant in Kazinga, a fishing village nearby. Two months earlier, a man was fatally gored by a young male elephant at the northern edge of the park, near the village of Katwe. African elephants use their long tusks to forage through dense jungle brush. They've also been known to wield them, however, with the ceremonious flash and precision of gladiators, pinning down a victim with one knee in order to deliver the decisive thrust. Okello told me that a young Indian tourist was killed in this fashion two years ago in Murchison Falls National Park, north of where we were.

These were not isolated incidents. All across Africa, India and parts of Southeast Asia, from within and around whatever patches and corridors of their natural habitat remain, elephants have been striking out, destroying villages and crops, attacking and killing human beings. In fact, these attacks have become so commonplace that a new statistical category, known as Human-Elephant Conflict, or H.E.C., was created by elephant researchers in the mid-1990's to monitor the problem. In the Indian state of Jharkhand near the western border of Bangladesh, 300 people were killed by elephants between 2000 and 2004. In the past 12 years, elephants have killed 605 people in Assam, a state in northeastern India, 239 of them since 2001; 265 elephants have died in that same period, the majority of them as a result of retaliation by angry villagers, who have used everything from poison-tipped arrows to laced food to exact their revenge. In Africa, reports of human-elephant conflicts appear almost daily, from Zambia to Tanzania, from Uganda to Sierra Leone, where 300 villagers evacuated their homes last year because of unprovoked elephant attacks.

Still, it is not only the increasing number of these incidents that is causing alarm but also the singular perversity -- for want of a less anthropocentric term -- of recent elephant aggression. Since the early 1990's, for example, young male elephants in Pilanesberg National Park and the Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Game Reserve in South Africa have been raping and killing rhinoceroses; this abnormal behavior, according to a 2001 study in the journal Pachyderm, has been reported in ``a number of reserves'' in the region. In July of last year, officials in Pilanesberg shot three young male elephants who were responsible for the killings of 63 rhinos, as well as attacks on people in safari vehicles. In Addo Elephant National Park, also in South Africa, up to 90 percent of male elephant deaths are now attributable to other male elephants, compared with a rate of 6 percent in more stable elephant communities.

In a coming book on this phenomenon, Gay Bradshaw, a psychologist at the environmental-sciences program at Oregon State University, notes that in India, where the elephant has long been regarded as a deity, a recent headline in a leading newspaper warned, ``To Avoid Confrontation, Don't Worship Elephants.'' ``Everybody pretty much agrees that the relationship between elephants and people has dramatically changed,'' Bradshaw told me recently. ``What we are seeing today is extraordinary. Where for centuries humans and elephants lived in relatively peaceful coexistence, there is now hostility and violence. Now, I use the term `violence' because of the intentionality associated with it, both in the aggression of humans and, at times, the recently observed behavior of elephants.''

For a number of biologists and ethologists who have spent their careers studying elephant behavior, the attacks have become so abnormal in both number and kind that they can no longer be attributed entirely to the customary factors. Typically, elephant researchers have cited, as a cause of aggression, the high levels of testosterone in newly matured male elephants or the competition for land and resources between elephants and humans. But in ``Elephant Breakdown,'' a 2005 essay in the journal Nature, Bradshaw and several colleagues argued that today's elephant populations are suffering from a form of chronic stress, a kind of species-wide trauma. Decades of poaching and culling and habitat loss, they claim, have so disrupted the intricate web of familial and societal relations by which young elephants have traditionally been raised in the wild, and by which established elephant herds are governed, that what we are now witnessing is nothing less than a precipitous collapse of elephant culture.

...

Please edit if this quote is too long. I don't know the rules.

by balbuz on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:53:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what? The elephants have figured out what's going on and are fighting back?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:02:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, richardk gave me a 4 for suggesting elephants understand cause and effect and moral reasoning.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:14:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RichardK gave me a 2 for :
[] Being sympathetic towards the elephants
[] Quoting a scientific article
[] Raising his blood pressure

New User Guide :
2 should be used for comments that are borderline, or ambiguous, or unnecessarily aggressive in their tone even if they make valid points.

by balbuz on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:25:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is a better bet: is it that elephants went this much "perverse" some times before, or is it an absolutely new fashion?

Here is my speculative model: animals are capable of numerous modes of behaviour, because they need to survive diverse individual and collective circumstances. Ancestors of present-day species "have seen it all": tough times, catastrophic times, mad times, quiet times, good times, overabundance times, invador competitors or predators, synergetic buddies - they had to survive each of that. In particular, they have been very violent, or very greedy, like us today. But that was not necessary for the survival, apparently. Or moreover, a more sure way to keep good times going was to switch off aggression and greed. (Who knows, evolution might have came up with solutions even against follies of newly successful species,  foolish "discoverers" of unbounded growth. Humanity might not have registered everything yet.)

Within this model, the elephants might have indeed went into an ancient "mad" mode, out of recognisable stress or something. Conceivably, strain signals might multiply across species...

by das monde on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, have you read about mysteriously dissapearing bees? That is not a joke: bees in the US are just dissapearing, agricultural industries may suffer dearly. They might even be contributing to the current stock market turmoil. Isn't this a way to bring our consumerist civilisation down?!
by das monde on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One problem: "A flood of imported honey from China and Argentina has depressed honey prices and put more pressure on beekeepers to take to the road in search of pollination contracts. Beekeepers are trucking tens of billions of bees around the country every year."


"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:06:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of the considered difficulties and possible reasons, one aspect is missing: genetically modified crops. Were they good for bees? On the other hand, how is GM industry is affected?
by das monde on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:31:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fail to see the connection with consumerism, though.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:36:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dennis van Engelsdorp, a bee specialist with the state of Pennsylvania who is part of the team studying the bee colony collapses, said the "strong immune suppression" investigators have observed "could be the AIDS of the bee industry," making bees more susceptible to other diseases that eventually kill them off.
Unexplained immune suppression...

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:42:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To give bees energy while they are pollinating, beekeepers now feed them protein supplements and a liquid mix of sucrose and corn syrup carried in tanker-sized trucks costing $12,000 per load.
Great, now we're feeding bees the same corn syrup crap that is giving children diabetes.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:45:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if dealing with monocultures is bad for bees. Probably.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:46:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OT: Hey, colman, I sent you a couple of e-mails about the ES site...

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:49:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw them ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's ingenuity of the 21st century.
by das monde on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:55:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mean that their disappearance is not linked to herbicides ????
We seem to have some other problems with a bee-killer, the "Vespa Velutina" hornet, imported species!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:24:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
we are at war with them.  

Guess they've decided to fight back.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh no, not at all. If we were they would all be dead by now.

It's more like in the Matrix, except we are the machines.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:54:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I haven't written about my astonishment of the elephant's social structure which once again should reduce any moral arrogance of humans as a superior species.

But I'll have to ask you: what do you think is the solution to increasing overpopulation within reserves?

by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:56:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we should really stop trying to pretend animals don't have culture, religion be damned.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 06:59:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that we should dump the bizarro-world supposed seperation between other animals and humans as different in kind at all. It's at the core of a lot of our problems, along with the humans vs. nature fallacy.

Where'd that one come from, anyway?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:01:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where'd that one come from, anyway?

From the religions of the book, at least in The West™.

Have you read The Ape and the Suchi Master?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:03:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ack, sushi.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:04:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup.

It's older than the Abhramaic religions though, isn't it? And rather more widespread. And tied up with the bizarre attitudes to our animal functions.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:05:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Abrahamic religions are pretty old (nearly 4000 years?), and they are nearly unique [aren't they?] in their lack (fear, contempt, ...?) of animal worship.

The whole Hindu matrix (including Buddhism) has an entirely different relationship to animals.

I don't know enough about Confucianism and Taoism. Does confucianism have more of a human focus and tao more of a nature focus?

Shinto is full of nature spirits, as are other animist religions.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:11:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? So according to you there's no meaningful seperation between human benigs and animals? So according to you animals have complex language? And symbolic reasoning? And reflective moral behaviour? What you say is not merely absurd nonsense, it is not only entirely ludicrous, it is anti-human to boot. You are reducing the status of human beings to mere animals. Either that or you are demonstrating a dangerous propensity for hallucinating human behaviour in anything warm-blooded with big eyes. I hope for your sake you're not an outdoor type or you'll find yourself gored to death as you try to hug the cute fuzzy rhinoceros.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:56:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh dear, did I bruise your delicate little ego? I'm afraid you're not as special as you think you are, little, hairless, half-blind, half-deaf ape. It's not clear, for instance, that you exhibit reflective moral behaviour in any sense that most people here would recognise.

No, there is no difference in kind between humans and other animals. There are clear differences in degree though: humans are really good at a whole lot of stuff other animals don't do nearly as well.

We're really bad at flying or swimming though. And figuring out how to use rating systems sensibly, apparently.

Human beings are animals. Denying that indicates that you have absolutely no clue how the universe works and that everything else you say can be discounted as nonsense.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For a misanthrope to accuse anyone else of being anti-human is amusing.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:07:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unlike actual misanthropes, I don't hate all of the human species, just 90% of its members. More importantly, I don't hate humans for the crime of being human as the greens do. I hate those humans who are less than human. Those who fail to demonstrate the quintessentially human qualities of symbolic reasoning and moral reasoning, or empathy and rationalism.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You personally demonstrate symbolic, moral and rational thought, but empathy? So I suppose you're 75% human.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well Migeru, you're definitely not demonstrating much rational thought. Otherwise you'd distinguish between empathy and sympathy.

Empathy is the ability to project oneself into the thoughts, feelings and situation of someone half a world away, millenia in the past, or centuries in the future. Empathy is not liking people or being polite, nice or accepting. Empathy means you understand people. Naturally, understanding people makes it that much easier to have contempt for them.

And hey, here's a novel idea, why don't we can the games of insulting ones-upmanship? I don't know enough about you to hate you and you still don't know the barest sliver of a fragment about me. The only things you can know for certain is that I'm left anti-authoritarian and that the complete alien nature of my value system greatly disturbs you.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:43:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're a totalitarian left anti-authoritarian who spends his time keeping a running tally of reasons to hate other people.

Here's a novel idea for you: how about you stop insulting people here, since at least they're giving you the courtesy of listening to you?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:47:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well in that case you can do me the courtesy of ignoring me. Seriously. And keep in mind that even if I reply to you in public, this doesn't imply I'm addressing you. Good bye Migeru.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:09:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case you can do me the courtesy of not replying to me in public.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:21:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suggest you use understanding people makes it that much easier to have contempt for them as your signature. In that way, people will have an easier time having contempt for you if, like you, that's their natural inclination.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:53:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm left anti-authoritarian

after what catastrophe?

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't hug a rhinoceros anyway: it's culturally unacceptable to them. You have to kiss them on the cheek. But only once.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:07:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your abuse of the ratings system in this thread has been spectacular. For the record, a 2 or a 1 should not be used to convey disagreement, and even less as a form of petty retaliation. As a result of your abuse:

  • your ratings have been wiped;

  • your capacity to rate comments has been removed. This will last for one week from today. If you again abuse the ratings system after your capacity to rate is re-established, you will lose it for good.

One of your comments has disappeared because of the number of zero-ratings it attracted. You should be aware that outrageous comments can also be purely and simply deleted by site administration. This community has never gone in much for police methods, because there's generally a good atmosphere and users show respect for one another. No one has ever been banned. There can, however, be a first time.

This is a formal warning: if you go on posting comments that it is impossible for the community to leave on the record:

  • your account will be suspended for a week;

  • if, after re-establishment, you persist, your account will be closed.

There will be no discussion of this ruling, and it will be applied without fail.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:06:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I used the rating system in a very consistent manner, with 1 to indicate trollish insults exclusively and 2 to indicate spectacularly irrational comments. There was no abuse on my part. And if I'm going to be mobbed in this manner, what makes you think I give a damn about this community?

By the way, I love how fast police action has broken out in this supposedly anti-authoritarianism community. It's a beautiful example of group-think in action. Doesn't do a thing for your own credibility but then again we can't all win. So I think I'll stay true to my dissident principles and you'll lose all of your own credentials.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:23:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think you give a damn about this community. What makes you think any of us care about that?

You don't like it here, you know what you can do.

End of discussion.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:29:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't like it here, you know what you can do.

In his case, that's probably stay and be a pain until you ban him so he can add the community to his hate list.

He's like those London yobs who take pride in their ASBOs. The length of his hate list is his personal measure of accomplishment.

But, like with the ASBOs, by disciplining him you're making his day.

Don't feed the troll.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:35:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a helpful comment, Mig. You grumpy old man.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:39:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Forewarned is forearmed.

How does a grumpy young man like me get to as be happy in his middle-age as you are, afew?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:41:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:45:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll?

and politics...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really don't give a damn about "community". Not just this one but any community. I give a damn about knowledge and ideas and justice. There's a surprisingly high density of those things on eurotrib. Even coming from utter assholes such as yourself. By the way, it's the second time you've declared End of Discussion. Don't you get tired of acting like a particularly immature child?
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Richard. The "high density of knowledge and ideas and justice" which you kindly notice on eurotrib comes in good part from the atmosphere of respect and tolerance we have for one another. It's not a weakness, it's a strength.

It is possible to disagree vigorously with others here without needing to treat them with contempt or insults. Just bring out your facts and arguments, if things are so obvious to you, and enlighten us. We actually listen, you know.

I personally don't mind so much your hostile comments on their own, because the only person they shed a poor light on is you (on your personality and manners, if not always on your graps of facts), but the fact is that the disrupt threads and lower the "high density" you referred to above.

Thus, if you cannot abide by the standards of this place, you WILL be banned. You'll still be able to read us an enjoy our quality content, but we won't have to deal with your needlessly disruptive manners. Do you really think you contribute to the "high density of knowledge and ideas and justice" when you insult just about everybody here?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the surprising aspects of ET's contributors is how almost all of them possess these relatively rare character traits of having a very wide knowledge, being capable of admitting being wrong or having learned something new, having an endless curiosity, all the while being kind to one another.

This results in an incredibly high signal-to-noise ratio.

Richardk obviously doesn't possess any of those traits, and as I noted a while ago, we can expect more of the same from him. Some people just can't adjust, and he won't, he can't help it.

by balbuz on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 06:16:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Group-hug for richardk!

Could a resident psychologist get meta on us all and explain about how behaviour is mirrored and then re-mirrored so the tone reflects and magnifies?

I suggest the following:

a) Ignore a richardk post.  Never reply to it.  DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.  As balbuz writes, he has done this elsewhere, it is his normal online behaviour.  Asking him to change won't work.  

b) Ignore a richardk TROLL post.  Once he gets...richardk-I-smell-evil-I-love-all-humans-except-for-the-90%-I-HATE...that's it, conversation over.  No comeback.  Bye bye ta ta.  And of course troll-rate his sudden racist outbursts.

c)  Be very CAPS LOCK ABUSIVE at him while also super-troll rating his posts (that annoy you.)  I tried that, I was hoping the whole mess would be super-troll rated (take it outside!)...and then...everyone can have fun being violently abusive with words and pics...  The "Stormy Catharsis" as it's known...heavy on the humour!

"Your farts smell of stale cheese and ugly beetles thrive in your armpit hair!"

d)  Become the ET policeman...da pigs!  Find some ET law he has violated and punish him.

I think a)-c) would be effective enough.  And his ratings...heh...ratings tell you about the rater as well as the comment...  I have received a richardk "1"--heh...I was a tad abusive once upon a time...

But never again, I promised The Stormy Present!

(She theatened me with a bloody axe...tork about "the right way to do things"...

...from me richardk will only ever receive a "4" or a "0"...but his comments...we can all leave them hanging if we so wish...no ratings...no replies...non sequiturs...and zero rating for the racist ones...

Well, as they say, your mileage may vary...depending on your time, transport medium, length of hair and, er, wind factors....cough cough...confused now...

Ah yes, I remember:



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 07:11:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course I don't have a solution, Nomad. I am not a specialist, and I am not in charge, and I am from a country where a hunter managed to kill a couple of years ago the very last indigenous bear.

Let's just never forget that animal societies are far more complex than what they seem, that was my only point.

by balbuz on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:02:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With your astonishment you've revealed your complete lack of understanding of what makes humans a superior species.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:52:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, some of us are trying for the superior species certificate, but we have these "humans" who just won't pull their weight ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:04:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Incidentially, what metric are you using for "superior"?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:05:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Answered elsewhere in these comments.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 08:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What, our ability to destroy our own social structures in the name of progress?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Social structures like ritual child sacrifice, cannibalism, ritual mutilation, child sexual slavery, infanticide, and those aren't even the bizarre ones. Yes, I would say that destroying all of these social structures was done in the name of, and has achieved, progress. There's a lesson in there, don't try to defend something you don't understand! You'll only end up defending the indefensible.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 08:56:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I'm talking about valuable community structures in urban civilisations being destroyed as we speak in the name of economic efficiency.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because of course market fundamentalism is the be-all and end-all of human industrial civilization. No wait, of civilization itself. In fact, of human society itself.

Because psychopathy has never existed in human history prior to the 20th century. And certainly it exists nowhere in the animal world, right? I mean, that's why chimps eat furry little mammals alive, because they aren't psychopathic.

Because the 21st century, or perhaps the modern era, is uniquely destructive in human history. And uniquely destructive in the animal kingdom since how did that go again? Oh yeah, animals don't make war, war is the unique province of man.

The only thing you manage to do is look like a grumpy old man yelling at the kids to get off your lawn and bemoaning what's become of the world today. Someone who hasn't the slightest shred of a clue about anything in the natural world and is unable to put his own era into a greater perspective.

Next time, try not to say something so colossally stupid that every single meaningful interpretation of it is stupid. And if you do, for goodness' sake, don't prove it!

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:05:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yeah, animals don't make war, war is the unique province of man.

Well, except for the other animals - chimps spring to mind - that do it.

But details, eh?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your sarcasm detector needs to be completely rebuild. Perhaps you may even need to look into a newer model.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unlike you, I am not in possession of truth nor do I speak gospel.

When I say something it may be wrong.

What I expect when I say stuff on ET is that people will point out where I'm wrong without being insulting.

And yes, I've been a grumpy old man since I was maybe 25. Trying to figure out how to rejuvenate myself. And no, you're not a model.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:10:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only since 25?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:17:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a reliable upper bound.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:18:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Last time I looked about superior species, there was a German guy, circa 1938.... If I recall well, he wiped off quite a bit of the european population..!
It's because too many people still believe, incorrectly, of the human kind as being "above" nature that we are in this mess...!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 11:16:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
;)

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The first time I saw ivory was in a tiny shop in a market in Burundi.  On the shelf, amidst a jumble of wooden horns and mbiras and Congolese tribal masks and bananna-leaf dolls, there was a foot-long lion sculpture, carved out of something off-white and creamy.

I pointed to it, and whispered to my driver, "Is that ivory?!"

The shopowner overheard me.  "Ivory?  No, that's made from bone."  I raised one eyebrow skeptically, not really believing him.

"You want ivory?" he asked.  "This is ivory!"

And with that, he pulled another sculpture out of a drawer.  And another.  And another.

I stared at them, picked them up, touched the smooth surface and then put them down.  Sorry, I said, I wasn't interested in any ivory, and I continued looking at musical instruments and masks...

Cut to three days ago.  I'm in my favorite shop in the Khan al-Khalili, Cairo's legendary souk.  I've taken my visitors into the winding alleyways, away from the aggresive salesmen hawking acrylic pyramids and cheap plastic pharonic ornaments.

I know this shop sells ivory because the Egyptian friend who first brought me here proudly showed me the carved ivory necklace and earrings she'd bought there.  They also have other lovely things, which is what we've come to look at, but while my friends are comparing inlaid mother-of-pearl jewelry boxes, I'm opening drawers and digging through the stuff that's not on the shelves.  I'm finding all kinds of interesting things tucked away, much to the shopowner's amusement.

"All those times you've been in here, and you never opened the drawers before?!"   He laughs at me.

On the shelf:  creamy, off-white carvings of various shapes & sizes.  Camel bone, the shopowner tells me.

I open a drawer and pull out a carved lion.  He smiles.

"That's... imitation camel bone,"  he says.  "You know what that is?"  He's giving me a sort of embarrassed look.  He knows we're American, and he knows how Americans usually respond to ivory.

"Uh, plastic, yaani?" I respond, my eyebrow again raised, I'm laughing a little because as many times as I've been in the shop, I've just sort of avoided talking about the ivory.  Or even seeing it.

He shows me how you can tell the difference between ivory and camel bone, by looking at the grain.

I'm going to buy some picture frames, made of ebony with small bits of inlaid white... something.  I hold up two frames.  "What's this?"  I ask.

"That one is ivory.  That one is not."  I pick through the frames, trying to find three in the right sizes without ivory.

My point is this:  the ban ain't working.  We know this.  The stuff is not hard to find, it's hard to avoid in some places.  The ban is a joke.

Except that it's not.  Except that Africa's elephant population was cut in half in two decades, the 70s and 80s.  And now it's recovering.  So the ban is working, except where it's not.

The places where enforcement isn't a joke -- like South Africa, like Botswana -- now have an elephant problem, as in too many elephants.  You stand at the fence on the border of the Kruger park and Mozambique, and you can see it -- the vegetation is different on the South African side, where there are too many elephants.  It's exactly the same ecosystem, with totally different plants (and fewer of them on the SA side) and the only thing separating them is an electric fence.

The places where enforcement is a joke -- places like the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Central African Republic -- there's also an elephant problem, in that they're almost completely gone.

Kenya still supports the ban.  Its elephants, not being locked in fenced reserves like Kruger, are more vulnerable to poaching, and its wildlife service has long been facing all kinds of financial and administrative and political hurdles.  Kenya's elephant population is recovering, but it hasn't recovered.

And in Central Africa, as graphically explained here, the ivory trade has combined with the bushmeat trade to put the forest elephant population (as distinct from the savannah elephants of eastern and southern Africa) at extreme risk.  Seriously, they're almost gone.

Because the problem is that if any ivory is traded, anywhere, there will be people willing to kill elephants wherever they can find them.  It doesn't matter what the price is.  Any price will do, these are poor people, and a live elephant gets them nothing.  At least not immediately.

And the elephants at the greatest risk from resumed trade are the ones that are the most threatend now, despite the ban, so incredibly threatened, because the countries they live in lack either the will or the means to protect them.

The concern of countries like Kenya is that if there is a renewed, resurgent, above-ground trade in ivory because the Southern African ivory surplus floods onto the market, the black-market trade in ivory will also surge, DNA tests aside, and the Kenyan (and other African) elephants will pay the price.

So dealing with the surplus population in the south could actually finish off the still-threatened populations elsewhere on the continent.

It's a no-win situation, really.

South Africa has tried shipping elephants elsewhere, like to Angola (!!!) and Mozambique, but elephants don't travel well.  Some of the ones sent to Angola died, and most of the ones initially sent to Mozambique just walked back home.

I think the ivory trade is sort of like the drug trade, in that you can't just deal with it on the supply end.  You have to kill the demand.  And that means yes, convincing the Asians (and Egyptians!) who love their ivory things, somehow, that these are not things they should crave.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:03:31 AM EST
Is the electric fence there to keep the elephants in, or to keep the humans out?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:26:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both.

The entire park is surrounded with electric fences and various other types of game-deterrant fences because the areas immediately outside of it are all fairly heavily populated.  After the 2000 floods (you might remember their effects in Mozambique) knocked down some of the fences, the sister of a friend who lived on a farm near the park was alarmed to find a rhinoceros roaming around in her front yard.

But it also does keep potential poachers out, in theory, although clearly people do manage to get past it.  In addition to poachers (which do continue to strike in Kruger), there is a steady flow of migrants coming into South Africa through the park from (and via) Mozambique.  It's a dangerous journey, as so many migrant passages are.  I don't know how many bodies are found every year in the park, but I know it's not unusual.

There is a program to remove the fence along a section of the border and create a transfrontier park in South Africa, Mozambique and a small part of Zimbabwe (that part is indefinitely on hold...) but I'm not sure of the current status.  When it's finished, it should allow Kruger's elephants a much larger range, lowering the population density.  But the elephants initially refused to go -- they're territorial.  So the next step was to move a bunch of them across the border and then leave the fence up to force them to stay....

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:40:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When it's finished, it should allow Kruger's elephants a much larger range, lowering the population density.  But the elephants initially refused to go -- they're territorial.

I suppose what this indicates is that elephants' opinion of what constitutes overpopulation is at odds with ours.

Where does the figure taht Kruger has a capacity of 8000 elephants come from?

Ultimately, introducing predators (human hunters, I suppose) is the only way to keep a population under control.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know where the 8k figure comes from, but I assumed it was from the Kruger management or South African wildlife authorities.

The overpopulation idea comes from not just whether the environment will sustain a given elephant population, but whether it can do so sustainably, without the elephants destroying (eating, or just knocking over) too much of the vegetation for it to be replenished properly.  Like humans, elephants can live in an environment while simultaneously destroying it.

There is no question that culling is, at this point, the only realistic way to control the elephant population.  All of the countries with elephant surpluses do limited culling already.

The question is whether they should be allowed to sell the ivory from the culled animals.  And that is an entirely different question, because it's the ivory trade (along with, as I mentioned, the bushmeat trade) that fuels the poaching industry.

They think of the elephants both alive and dead as a resource and potential source of income.  (I should note that all of them, South Africa, Botswana or Namibia, are considered middle-income nations....)

Elephants, a natural resource.  Alive, they're tourist attractions.  Dead, they're ivory sources.  Or so the thinking goes.

(Another note:  If "flooding the market" with their culled ivory would really deflate the global ivory price, there wouldn't be that much revenue from them in selling it... the scheme does actually rely on ivory prices staying relatively attractive from a seller's perspective.)

So anyway, sentimentality aside, culling isn't really the issue.  The parks can cull.  The question is what they do with the culled animals.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 08:26:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(Another note:  If "flooding the market" with their culled ivory would really deflate the global ivory price, there wouldn't be that much revenue from them in selling it... the scheme does actually rely on ivory prices staying relatively attractive from a seller's perspective.)

It doesn't matter how low the price of the ivory is, from the institutional (natural park) seller's perspective. If Kruger has to cull 1000 animals per year, that's 1000 carcasses they have to do something about. Selling the ivory at a small price is better than nothing for the park, it only has to pay for the cost of harvesting the ivory from the carcass, not the cost of culling. If it does make an overall profit, so much the better. But if dumping ivory for free would kill poaching, that also works. It becomes a positive externality of a cost the park has to incur anyway.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 08:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point I was making was in response to this statement in the original diary:

And here I'm thinking: why not cull, dump the ivory on the market, reduce prices and make poaching financially insolvent, while working on a grander scheme to set up corridors?

It really does require a separation of the issues.  There's culling, and there's ivory sales.  Separate issues.  Yes, there's elephant overpopulation in southern Africa, and that is a problem, but the solution to that problem must not endanger the still-threatened elephant populations elsewhere.

Culling does not require ivory sales.  Yes, it's a shame for a poor country to have a stockpile of an expensive product that it's legally not allowed to sell, and that's what's driving the elephant-surplus countries of southern Africa to push for expanded trade under CITES.  But if ivory sales means that solving southern Africas overpopulation problem will result in the disappearance of elephants from the rest of the continent, then another solution needs to be found.

Or else people need to just decide that providing an economic boost for three countries outweighs the environmental impact it might have on the rest of the continent.  Which is a decision that, when it comes to other resources (e.g. petroleum or coal or coltan), is obviously a common (if flawed) policy.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 08:48:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My point was that, if 2000 tusks per year from Kruger is enough to depress the price of ivory to the point that poaching ceases to be profitable, it might be a win-win situation environmentally.

What is the volume of the illegal trade in ivory? Is it 200 tusks per year, or 20000?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 08:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to a report released this month by the wildlife trade monitoring network TRAFFIC, more than 4,000 elephants are killed each year to meet the demand for illegal ivory.

...

The ban was put in place amid evidence poachers were slaughtering some 100,000 Africa elephants a year during the 1980s.

The IUCN-World Conservation Union estimates some 400,000 to 600,000 African elephants remain in the wild, down from as many as five million 70 years ago, and considers poaching and habitat loss the key threats to the species. (2004 source)

Just to get an idea of the scales involved...

Apparently the ban is working in that only 1% of elephants in the wild (and 25 times fewer than 20 years ago) are killed each year by poachers.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:03:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What prevents other countries from implementing the "successful" South African model?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:27:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Poverty.

But don't stake money on that bet.

by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lack of resources, infrastructure and political will.  Conservation rarely outpaces other aspects of a nation's development, and I'm not sure why it would be expected to.  As I mentioned, the southern African countries with elephant surpluses are also three of the wealthiest (relatively speaking) countries in Africa.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:51:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to this, since 2006 the roads from Kruger extend now into Limpopo park, Limpopo is receiving visitors and at least part of the fences are gone. What had happened to the Zimbabwe corridor since September 2003 - I don't know...

For those who are not following, here is a map of the Great Limpopo from the same site:

by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:44:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have 6000 elephants too many, what do you do?

Rent a bigger apartment...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:00:34 AM EST
Un elefante / se balanceaba / sobre la tela de una araña
Como veía / que no se caía / fue a llamar a otro elefante

Dos elefantes / se balanceaban / sobre la tela de una araña
Como veían / que no se caían / fueron a llamar a otro elefante

...

Seis mil elefantes / se balanceaban / sobre la tela de una araña
Como veían / que no se caían / fueron a alquilar un apartamento

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:05:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who go fuzzy eyed just because some mammal gets shot with a rifle. Boo hoo hoo, yeah right. Culture doesn't matter! What matters is consciousness and moral reasoning. The moment elephants are capable of some form of complex language, then we can talk. Until then I voted 'elephant steak, yum' and I stand by it.

I'm an environmentalist in the functional sense only, not an eco-zealot nor a deep ecologist yearning for deindustrialization and human stagnation. In fact, I disdain both animal lovers and eco-zealots because of the cognitive defects that corrupt their minds. And the defects I describe in that essay aren't even half of what they suffer from.

Considering that I've grown to passionately loathe my fellow human beings who act irrationally to both my personal detriment and the detriment of our entire species, I'm certainly not going to waste any effort caring about some dumb animal who's managed to outbreed its habitat.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:42:02 AM EST
What matters is consciousness and moral reasoning.

Insert obvious remarks here.

I've grown to passionately loathe my fellow human beings

Your who? Fellow? Can we opt-out?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 09:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From the latest post on your blog:

If I were an Evil Emperor

   <...>
   2. I would not make a laughingstock of myself by posturing

So I guess we take it you're not an Evil Emperor after all.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:00:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
some dumb animal who's managed to outbreed its habitat

Like, for instance, humans.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:05:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difference (and I'll stick to just one, since there are many) seems to me that you wouldn't mind culling because we can, and I wouldn't mind culling because we must.
by Nomad on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 10:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't it about linguistics again: the difference between "culling" (which implies in itself a necessity) and "killing"?

Reminds me a bit of the difference between one man's terrorism and another man's freedom fighting...

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 11:00:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm certainly not going to waste any effort caring about some dumb animal who's managed to outbreed its habitat.

Something from a radically different perspective than my own:

My feeling is that all "animals" will oubreed their habitats if the conditions are right. There has been some discussion on what makes us similar to animals in this thread. Here is an example of what makes us different. We are:

  1. Self Aware (several animals are as well)
  2. We are aware of others
  3. We are aware of our environment

The awareness of our environment has effectively ended the state of nature. We are in charge, and we have no choice but to be in charge. (There appear to be no other animals that are naturally aware of their environment.) To make no choice is to make a choice.

As we modify the habitat for short-term advantages to our species we will shift the habitat of other species. Some of whom will then outbreed their habitat, some of whom will go extinct. As we try to deal with our changes to nature we may find ourselves in the position that animals that are severely threatened in one area are outbreeding in another. Ya - they are 'dumb' animals all right.

For better or worse, we are in charge. I certainly hope with our responsibility to control nature that someone actually cares about animals that manage to outbreed its habitat, along with animals that seem to be doing just about right, and those animals that are sliding towards extinction.

In a way a number of disagreements here seem to me to be on the topic of the control of Nature - whether it be arguments over nuclear power, or culling elephants.

As there seems to be some confusion over just "who" is responsible, let me end by saying that the Canadian Gold mining company in Guyana that spilled toxic tailings into the local river, killing all the fish is not an uncommon type of problem - along with the environmental effects of extreme poverty. It is not just poverty though. The environmental change that southern Canada (where the people are) has undergone is extensive. Perhaps the words complete transformation would be in order - with the subsequent extinctions and animals that suddenly have found the perfect environment to bread explosively - like deer in our parks.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:13:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For better or worse, we are in charge. I certainly hope with our responsibility to control nature that someone actually cares about animals that manage to outbreed its habitat, along with animals that seem to be doing just about right, and those animals that are sliding towards extinction.

Indeed.

by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 10:30:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The awareness of our environment has effectively ended the state of nature.

We are part of "the state of nature". We're it. We are not somehow special and separated. At all. We eat it, breath it, shit it and depend on gazillons of various bits of it without which we will die.

We're not in charge of it, though we're capable of having significant effects, almost as large as those of bacteria.

This is a system we live in and are part of. We do not control it and cannot control it. We can steer it a bit and hope to hell we haven't missed the icy patch on the road ahead. Which it turns out we did ...

We are aware of our environment

So how's that working out for everyone? What does that even mean? How would you know if another animal was aware of its environment?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 10:42:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't matter whether other animals are aware of their enviroment.

Edwin's point is [I think] that, just as awareness of others implies social responsibility and social ethics, awareness of one's environment implies environmental responsibility and environmental ethics.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 10:46:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Awareness of others, by itself, implies no such thing: it would be just as sensible to view others as resources to be exploited.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 10:49:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To some extent, it does not matter if one views nature as something to be exploited, worshiped, lived in harmony with or what have you. Exploitation can lead to very strong environmental control. As the author Jared Diamond stated in (I believe) Collapse, dictatorships where there is a belief that a dynasty has been created can be better environmental stuards than in Democracies, precisely because of the desire to create stability for future exploitation. Japan would be one example where this has occurred in the past. Again this does not matter. We have the ability to choose how we interact with nature. There are limits on that interaction - but we are generally aware of these limits too, even as we tend to ignore them.

It is still our responsibility to control nature, by the fact that we can not avoid impacting it, and that we know what we do. It is the know what we do - and that removes any innocence - any possibly of co-existing with nature. Harmony with nature is something we define, we debate. There is more than one choice for the answer. (Of course there are also answers that are either harmful or fatal.) Choosing to cull elephants, or to not cull elephants is our choice. There is no other species available to negotiate this with. We can not wash our hands and say - we will let nature take its course. The choice to do noting is still a choice, and we are still responsible for that choice. As to just how much we can change and alter nature before we loose control is a question we shall probably be shortly answering - but the consequence of this is not something that just "happens". We are not innocent victims, unlike the elephants that have exceeded the population density for the land they have been allocated by us.

How do we know whether other animals are aware of the environment? To some extent we do not. There is much we do not understand about other species. On the other hand we do have some ideas of the limitations of intelligence in other species. The extremely limited communication between humans and other species occurs at the organisation of ourselves. We are again in control when it happens, but again this does not matter. Until we discover a partner we can share responsibility for how we interact with nature, we are the ones responsible.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 12:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You entirely miss my point: nature is not something separate from us. We do not interact with it. We are part of it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 12:53:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not too sure where the misunderstanding is. I see some disagreement though.

Nature is something we are both part of and we define. We not only interact it, but also radically shape it both deliberately and accidentally, even while we are part of it. In some cases that radical shaping is perceived of as good - such as the deliberate extintion of viruses that are harmful to our species.

In general though, as I think Murray Bookchin would say - we are simplifying the environment in a direction that if we continue, there will be no place for us in it.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 01:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't matter whether other animals are aware of their enviroment.

The why bother saying it? What's the point? I hold that the mind-set that sees Humans as separate from Nature is part of the problem. We pretend its something external that we're not part of.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 10:50:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's directly analogous to the mindset that sets Western Civilisation™ against The Barbarians™ and thus excuses all the horrors of the last couple of centuries.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 10:53:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Bible is full of those stories of the "chosen people" given a free ride to just annihilate the neighboring tribe. So it goes a long way back.

There are a very precious few peoples or civilizations who just didn't buy into that, and they are the most vulnerable.

by balbuz on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 11:47:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We are in charge, and we have no choice but to  

We are not in charge; we are clueless buffoons.  This is already being revealed and will become pretty obvious to everybody as the 21st century devolves.  

Oh, yes--the outlook for single celled organisms is GOOD!  

Rational thought does not count for much--less than nothing, in fact--if you can not use it properly.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 05:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
animals that are severely threatened in one area are outbreeding in another. Ya - they are 'dumb' animals all right.

for example humans, who tend to have more children when they are poor and desperate?   Bookchin among others documents the population explosion of the English poverty class created by the Enclosures:  living in misery, want, and meaning-deficit in sordid slums, they "bred like rabbits" as they never did when they were yeoman, freehold and commons farmers.  of course this population explosion was both welcomed and scolded by the gentry and the rising capitalists;  it "proved" that the poor were immoral, had no self-control, and therefore the gentry were justified in having stolen the common lands;  and it provided an immiserated mass of humanity to be mined for cheap labour in the new wage-slave factory system...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 07:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
interestingly no one raises the possibility of tubal ligation for female elephants of breeding age (since they are a species with long gestation and long infancy and childrearing periods, individual females are reproductively important, and laparoscopic surgery might be possible on tranquilised elephants in the field...)  or possibly subcutaneous long TR contraceptive capsules...

but more importantly no one imho really tackles the underlying problem, which is the challenge [read:  disaster] of cheap fossil fuel and the global funfair of unregulated markets it has spawned.  there was a time when demand was de facto throttled by geographic and time constraints:  long cargo-carrying expeditions were subject to extremely high risk and long durations which limited, inherently, the amount of supply that could reach distant markets and raised the cost of exotic imports to levels that automatically limited the number of consumers.  for fresh goods the staleness or spoilage rate limited the market to a fixed transport radius.  there was a governor on the mercantile engine.

the problem with the fossil-fuel magic carpet, and with  the global overnight marketing it enables, is that instantly the potential market for any produce of any region is 3 bio people (I leave out the other 4 bio or so who are too poor to buy anything exotic).  this market is big enough to overwhelm any regional natural resource, anywhere on earth, almost overnight.  as indeed we see happening all around us... as the "eco" palm oil anecdote illustrates, and we could pull thousands more out of any hat.

if only local tribal elites collected ivory from elephants, and hunted elephants with traditional methods and weapons, the elephant population would probably be fairly stable and perhaps even benefitted in an evolutionary sense by the culling of weaker/ill specimens by human and other carnivorous predation.  the demand for ivory by local elites, while it might be grossly conspicuous consumption per se, is sort of self-limiting;  people have to spend some of their time raising food and earning a living, the whole culture can't just kill elephants all day long.  hardly the Peaceable Kingdom perhaps, but workable.

but when the money economy and the global marketplace for ivory -- from tourist tchotchkas to elite collectibles -- "open up" this trade, a dedicated corps of killers could in fact make a living by killing elephants full-time... until they run out of elephants.  they won't run out of customers.  they will run out of elephants before they run out of customers -- this is crucial -- and the value per unit will rise as they destroy the elephant supply, but there will still be a percentage of customers wealthy enough to pay gouging scarcity prices.  therefore in the absence of regulatory intervention there would shortly be no elephants at all, and some temporarily-rich but now unemployed exterminists who have just had a very powerful reinforcing lesson in the profitability of exterminism and will be looking for the next opportunity to apply their methods.

so I believe it's axiomatic that the rapid-long-haul global (capitalist) marketplace can exhaust any regional resource at far above replacement rates, thanks to the continuous and accelerating infusion of fossil energy and the nonsense of compound interest which "creates" a money supply far in excess of the "market value" of natural resources (back to Hornborg here) and one game cycle ahead of physical reality.  

thus we end up with the nightmare of e.g. Nauru, where the global demand for nitrates (to shore up our insane "advanced" factory ag system) made it "financially sensible" to exploit "comparative advantage" in a fast-forward liquidation of the island's nitrate deposits -- leaving a bankrupted (both biotically and financially) island nation with a gutted interior, able to function only as a tourist playground, a prison camp where Australia detains refugees, and an international money laundry and shady internet address-for-rent... the intersection of global market, fossil transport, decoupled (aphysical) money value, and finite natural resource in microcosm.

as to our biophobic, chronically vituperative and apparently narrowly-read resident troll:  I find myself recalling the immortal Zaphod Beeblebrox:  put your analyst on danger money, baby...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:23:37 PM EST
Sure, but in that event it will also be highly profitable to breed and sell elephants, to hunters for example. Something parks could do, and would do if they'd like to have a sustainable source of income.

Just because the demand for beef is very high, no one is running out of cows.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, we're just running out of grain (to feed cows), pastureland (overgrazed by cows), potable surface water (polluted by CAFOs), groundwater (drained to irrigate grain and soy for cows), topsoil (destroyed by the aggressive irrigation and artificial fertiliser and pesticide regimens used to raise monocrop grains and soy for cows), rainforest (clearcut to make pasturage and grain and soy fields for cows)... and an intangible called "food security" or "public health" (imperilled by the flailing desperate measures taken to ensure the timely production of cow meat by factory methods:  e coli contamination, hormone adulteration, BSE, etc, and by the negative health consequences of a diet high in overfattened, corn-fed beef.).  eventually all those factors add up to running out of cows, just as cutting down the orchard adds up to runnung out of apples.

moreover the grain to feed cows is only being produced and delivered at the cost of approx 10 fossil calories for every calorie of grain, which in turn produces only 1/14th of a calorie of beef...

the math doesn't work.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:43:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in other words, if I did not make the point clearly enough, "profitability" in this and similar cases is just loan-kiting, skating barely ahead of a staggering and daily-incrementing balloon payment (as it were).

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 at 07:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we might also ask whether there are "too many elephants" in any absolute sense, or merely too many elephants for the arbitrary reservations into which we have herded them while we built over, transected with roadways, logged, cleared, desertified and otherwise destroyed their natural range and habitat.  too many elephants, or too little land left for them to be elephants in?  in some ways this is a bit like Israelis looking at the OT and commenting with lofty objectivity that there are just too damn many Palestinians;  or to generalise further, like the wealthy Westerners who look scornfully at the "teeming" Third World (where Western colonial and financial interests have colluded in and directly financed land enclosures, expropriations, ethnic power plays etc) and saying "there are just too many of those people".  any population becomes "too many" if it is herded and held captive in an artificially diminished territory.  one is reminded (or at least I am) of Scrooge's remarks about "the surplus population."

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 12:38:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here I fiercely disagree with tone which I find far too disparaging of the work that has been done and is continued to be done in National Parks in southern Africa. Comparing them to Palestinian territorities is very much out of bound

Had it not been for the National Parks the elephant, the black and white rhinoceros, the cheetah and many more would most likely be virtually if not completely extinct by now. Hluwhluwe-Imfolozi alone is world renowned for their program on white rhinoceros. Be honest, and add that into your comment as well.

Have you been here DeAnander? Have you worked within a game reserve and spoken to and lived with the people who work there? Because they are the fiercest protectors of animals I have ever had the pleasure to meet and I hope to meet them again. Tough as nails, but their love is unquestionable.

Coming from you, I'm actually too disappointed to fully consider the philosophical angle of your comment.

by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:37:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I just made a fool of myself. Sorry for the spat, but comments in that vein just turn me red hot.

Should've read more carefully you were providing generalisations.......

by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:45:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DeAnander doesn't skate lightly over human myths when blowing right past them. I think she's absolutely correct.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no offence taken, Nomad...  it was a provocative remark on my part.  there does exist a strong critique of the "conservationist" model of separating (confining and totally controlling) animal populations (and incidentally often driving the human indigenes who used to co-exist with those animals off their lands, in order to make "reserves" which sometimes resemble theme parks for wealthy first world tourists)... it's a complicated topic -- which I barely alluded to, let alone did any justice to -- and fit material for a whole long thread/debate of its own (Jules Pretty's Agri-Culture might make a good entry point);   but it doesn't invalidate the heroism and dedication of those who are trying to prevent the total extermination of species while the debate rages on.  I tip my hat to them.

that said, the fact that we need to establish "marine sanctuaries" and "reserves" for charismatic mammals or other endangered species is in itself an indictment of our land-use practise, our economy, our political organisation, our now-global regime of wealth-accumulation through extraction and usurpation -- much as the "need" for food stamps, homeless shelters, battered women's shelters, therapists for shattered soldiers, are in their own ways indictments of deep social dysfunction and ineffectual bandaids on deeply broken human communities.  nevertheless one would not wish them out of existence, lest bad become even worse.

obviously the point of the "separation barrier" aka ghetto wall is not to preserve and protect endangered Palestinians;  the metaphor is far from exact.  but the position of humans -- particularly hyperconsuming Westerners -- standing in some imagined pedestal in judgment and pronouncing that there are "too many" of some other life form -- one that is not menacing the biotic infrastructure at all by comparison to ourselves -- is to my ear hubristic and painfully ironic.  

if there are too many of anything on earth right now it is us.  our own "success" -- using models of dominance, control, reduction and liquidation -- is about to bite us deeply in the arse and we need to come to terms with all that this implies.  or act stupidly r-selected, and crash.  that is not, as some biophobes and technophiles claim, a deeply misanthropic PoV :-)  in a sense I believe it to be a fundamentally -- even idealistically -- humanistic PoV, because it asserts that we can be smarter than yeast (and most other life forms) and despite the great biotic urge to multiply maximally, we can exercise an uniquely human degree of ethical sophistication (notice I said degree since other animals manifest reciprocal altruism and communitarian ethics) and choose to modify by social software our reptilian, mammalian, and early hominid wetware.  we have acted like an r-selected opportunistic coloniser, and the absence of any balancing predation or competition means that we are driving inexorably towards a brutally simplified ecosystem which will not support our present numbers and possibly not support us at all -- not a stable climax ecosystem supporting maximum complexity including our very complex selves.  unfortunately that desire (well ingrained by an apparently successful track record) for control and domination leads to a retrograde preference for simplification, because apparently simple systems provide the illusion of control.  and here again I see this signature of control and lethal simplification in the idea that we can "manage" whole ecosystems from the top down, rather than existing in symbiosis and mutual shaping with the rest of the biotic web...

imho we cannot even start to make these critical and wholly -- we might even say maximally -- human choices so long as we continue to regard all other life forms as some kind of trivial impediment to our own maximal multiplication -- so long as "growth=good" is the underlying motivation behind our ideologies and our daily action -- the philosophy of yeast...  and as long as we say, as our resident troll recently did, that we wish they would all just die off so the fuss would be over (and our lives would be simplified).  btw this is not an idiosyncratic trope but a standard Exterminist mantra;  cf the hydro power exec who said he wished that salmon would "just go extinct" so that his organisation wouldn't have to deal with the pesky "salmon issue," or of course our favourite C20 exterminist who favoured complete extirpation of an entire subculture --several actually -- as the "final solution" to what he perceived as a "problem".

this is a real meme bouillebaisse here, not an orderly exposition suitable for real publication.  apologies for not having time to make a more linear presentation.  but it does expand a little on the sardonic shorthand which provoked -- understandably -- your momentary snarl.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 07:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Peak oil just led to peak corn and this to peak barley and peak beer. How long do you think it will be before peak cows?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:11:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They are using elephant birth control in Kruger and several other parks, but it's not a panacea either.  This article covers quite a lot of the problems and attempted solutions, including both birth control darting and, toward the end, a bit about removing artificial water supplies, which is actually also something they're doing, though for mostly different reasons.

For a little historical perspective, this 1966 article is interesting.  Note that these "proliferating herds" because the "population of big game has exploded beyond all bounds" happened before the great kill-off of the 70s and 80s....

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 03:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
interestingly no one raises the possibility of tubal ligation for female elephants of breeding age (since they are a species with long gestation and long infancy and childrearing periods, individual females are reproductively important, and laparoscopic surgery might be possible on tranquilised elephants in the field...)  or possibly subcutaneous long TR contraceptive capsules...

Yes, I thought about that. Would a one-calf-per-cow policy work? (I.e., tubal ligation of cows after they give birth once?) Only on a scale of the order of the life span of the elephant, which is 70 years... In the meantime, Kruger has to deal with 75% overpopulation already.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 04:10:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Contraception is already in use - for the smaller game reserves. For Kruger, this option is way too late. They have already hit the catastrophe curve and even if the cows would be "treated" (apart from the moral aspect to that approach) they will continue to destroy habitat until they die of old age.

Here's a practical problem that comes with it: who will pay for tagging, tranquilizing elephants from helicopters and performing surgery to some 6000 - 7000 elephant cows? South Africa? I don't think so.

by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:21:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think tubal ligation is a serious alternative, partly for the reasons you state.  The contraceptives currently used are similar to a yearlong Depo Provera injection, and are administered through darts much like a tranquilizer.  It's not terribly expensive, something like $35 per animal per year.

The advantage over tubal ligation is, aside from the obvious risk, expense and logistical difficulty of surgery, the injections are not a permanent sterilization, so the animal could be allowed to breed later if circumstances change.  Which, we never know, they could.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:27:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey Nomad... can you shoot me an e-mail sometime in the next few days?

Pun unintentional... maybe.  :-)

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 03:34:42 AM EST
just now? :)
by Nomad on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 08:49:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow!  That was now-now!  I'll reply just now.  Or now.

:)

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 at 09:18:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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