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Solar Minimum: Warming?

by Luis de Sousa Wed Dec 24th, 2008 at 11:15:04 AM EST

An audio version of this log entry can be downloaded here.



This video has been making the rounds, and most folks have probably seen it already. Below the fold are a few impressions on it.


First and foremost, it is quite relevant that someone that had been promoting the idea of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) not that long ago is now publicly showing doubts about it. Self entitled "Mr. Independent", Lou Dobbs had an independence burst about Climate in face of present events. Just showing how the majority of journalists are clueless about what they report and how prone they are to simply go with the flow.

Secondly this shows how folks that so far have been quiet about the Climate debate are now showing up and making questions. Chad Myers is a meteorologist with a career of more than 20 years, working for a reference news network. And he is not convinced that humans can have profound impacts in Climate or Weather.

Thirdly, as Dobbs was wrong when he invited Mann and company to his show, without having anyone with alternative interpretations of present climate, he is now wrong again by having Jay Lehr without a counter point. What is needed now is to bring the debate to the public, dig it out of shady blogs and impenetrable scientific journals.

While some are still dreaming about snow-less winters, after the decade or so of warmth, that steamed the AGW concept, the Northern Hemisphere is now being bathed in reality. The Arctic is showing great activity, sending strong highs one after the other, in ever more meridional trajectories, bringing snow and frost to temperate regions. This is a long way from what those who called for the melt of the North Pole expected. In face of these events some folks start wondering and fearing they might get caught in the wrong side of the fence if the present weather is set to continue.

Something important pointed out by a friend is that the election of a Democratic president for the US will bring a different phase to the AGW debate. Now, the policies proposed to curb CO2 emissions will get underway in that country and a new impetus will likely emerge to their enforcement worldwide.

Can you imagine, winters getting colder and snowier as the Sun steps deeper into its minimum, Natural Gas shortages developing and governments promoting carbon sequestration, agro-fuels and hydrogen?


Previous log entries:

Solar Minimum : Temperatures drop

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I always get the impression that you're avoiding making a point in these diaries. What's your position?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 24th, 2008 at 12:28:23 PM EST
I don't know what goes on Luis mind, but I like is diaries on the subject of climate change: it brings a perspective that goes against the local dogma (dogma might be a excessive word) while still being soundly presented. Just for that (having a different point of view from the "consensus") gets cookie points from me. I think we all benefit from informed dissent (much more than from preaching to the choir).

That being said I find some cognitive dissonance on Luis approach to climate change and peak oil: On peak oil he seems to like forecasting, modeling and numbers a lot. On climate change modeling he seems to scorn things a bit. For me that seems a bit like biased nitpicking: relying on the authority of models, numbers and forecasts on peak oil and disdain the "consensus" on climate modeling and forecasting.

by t-------------- on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 at 07:09:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While Luís's earlier solar minimum diary did indeed look like informed dissent (even if he didn't participate in the discussion that developed in the comments of that diary), I wouldn't say that about the current one.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 at 08:27:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was expecting that argument, which is... correct. Put this on encoragement against choir preachers.

I also would expect Luis to come back and answer to the good observations made by others to his diary.

by t-------------- on Mon Dec 29th, 2008 at 05:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... the Northern Hemisphere is now being bathed in reality. The Arctic is showing great activity, sending strong highs one after the other, in ever more meridional trajectories, bringing snow and frost to temperate regions. This is a long way from what those who called for the melt of the North Pole expected.

That final statement directly contradicts the statement leading up to it.

First, in general, Global Warming, whether anthropocentric or not, implies greater climate extremes of all sorts, since the climate is a heat engine.

Second, cold being brought down from the Arctic implies warmth being brought up to the Arctic ... as that is how weather systems work ... the snow and frost being brought down toward temperate regions in the winter is exactly what those who are warning of the melt of the North Pole would expect.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Dec 24th, 2008 at 08:23:35 PM EST
... Global Warming, whether anthropocentric or not, implies greater climate extremes of all sorts, since the climate is a heat engine.

Veracity of this statement depends on whether the heat machine is breaking down under the anthropological stress, or is it just starting up. The extremes suggest the latter, the more scary in the short term possibility.

Other view to consider is that the climate (or the Earth system) is a cybernetic system, with its own ways of stress perception and reaction. Cybernetic perceptions and reactions are typically non-linear, hard to clarify by direct physical causalities. How involved Earth's cybernetic system could be, after millions of iterations of similar atmospheric and geological scenarios? How close it might be to the Gayan functionality of self-preservation? Here is a wild speculation to illustrate a possible level of perception and reaction: As well recorded in history, the Russian invasions of Napoleon and Hitler failed largely due to extreme winters at the end of 1812 or 1941. There might be little coincidence here, if the European climate is "set" to react this way to military operations in the central Eastern Europe several months before... How do we test "learning ability" or "imprint vulnerability" of the Earth system?

Apparent sensitivity to the Sun cycle makes a cybernetic sense as well. As the Sun activity changes regularly, the Earth developed regular reactions to it, apparently with leveraging effects. Whereas the anthropological signal is probably still very novel and chaotic - hence the reaction to it is not straightforward. Or alternatively, such rapid global grows (of any biological entities) are not "unknown" to the Earth, but the reaction "routine" takes some time to develop.

What I miss from the one-line "analyzes" of Sun's influence is climate comparison across the same phases of Sun's activity - which is a natural and standard method in science (or, say, real estate statistics).

by das monde on Thu Dec 25th, 2008 at 12:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is discussed in the IPCC reports...and also expanded upon here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/07/the-lure-of-solar-forcing/
by asdf on Thu Dec 25th, 2008 at 02:09:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... Global Warming, whether anthropocentric or not, implies greater climate extremes of all sorts, since the climate is a heat engine.

Veracity of this statement depends on whether the heat machine is breaking down under the anthropological stress, or is it just starting up. The extremes suggest the latter, the more scary in the short term possibility.

How can the heat machine break down? It generates the weather in the thin, cold, arid atmosphere of Mars and the hellish heat of Venus. Surely if we reach the extremes where the atmosphere freezes into an ice shell or is driven off, we'll have long since pass the point of habitability.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Dec 25th, 2008 at 11:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How can a heat machine break down? Refrigerators break down, hurricanes dissipate...
by das monde on Mon Dec 29th, 2008 at 03:12:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"In 2007, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change projected that at the current level of emissions, summer sea ice could vanish completely anytime from 2040 to beyond 2100. But the extensive losses during the past two summers have led scientists to speculate that the Arctic Ocean may be ice-free in the summertime much sooner than anticipated. In October, scientists reported that the thickness of winter sea ice plummeted after the 2007 minimum, showing that the ice pack is not only shrinking but is decreasing in overall volume (Geophys. Res. Lett. 35, L22502; 2008)."
http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0901/full/climate.2008.142.html
by asdf on Thu Dec 25th, 2008 at 02:21:49 AM EST
Actually...

Arctic Sea Ice News & Analysis

The period of very rapid ice growth that characterized October and early November has ended. The rise in ice extent over the past three weeks has been much slower, and should continue to slow until the expected seasonal ice extent maximum is reached sometime in March. Air temperatures over the Arctic Ocean stayed well above average during November, partly because of continued heat release from the ocean to the atmosphere and partly because of a pattern of atmospheric circulation transporting warm air into the region.

In context:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 at 08:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a fair amount of bollocksy stuff here.

The story of a TV weatherman "with a 20 year career" suddenly expressing doubts about global warming after a few colder-than-usual months would be like a head waiter at a 3-star restaurant in Paris, with many years' experience, suddenly becoming a skeptic as to the theory that salmonella bacteria in the food can make people ill. Based on that we are supposed to believe that all the toxicologists and epidemiologists are just out to scare us into increasing their funding?

Solar radiation intensity does exhibit a cyclical variation correlated with the 11-year sunspot cycle. We are currently near the minimum. However, the two hottest years ever (1998 and 2005) were also in the lower half of the solar cycle. The solar cycle is just too weak to explain the annual temperature variations.

Indeed, the change in solar radiation over the cycle is less than 0.2W/m2 arriving at the surface of the earth. The estimated radiative forcing of the extra CO2 in the atmosphere due to fossil fuel burning is about 1.6W/m2 or 8 times bigger.

For these estimates see wikipedia:

Solar Variation

CO2 concentrations

CO2 radiative forcing

For many years the climate-change deniers have said that "correlation is not causation", as if climate change science were based only on a correlation between observed CO2 and observed temperatures. However, this goes both ways: just because you have one year that is colder than the previous ones does not mean that CO2 is irrelevant to global warming.

Real capricorns don't believe in astrology.

by tomhuld (thomas punkt huld at jrc punkt it) on Thu Dec 25th, 2008 at 09:43:14 AM EST
from a friend of a friend's son who works in the merchant marine says fully loaded oil tankers are parked in the Gulf just waiting for the word to increase prices again.

Scamming scumbag banksters are taking the government bailout money to set up the Globalist Green Gestapo department.  I shall cease to re-cycle.

by Lasthorseman on Thu Dec 25th, 2008 at 01:38:47 PM EST
You do not get to simply compare the current year to the two, three or even five immediately preceding years. That's not how thirty year rolling averages work...

And thirty year rolling averages are the relevant metric here, because if you look at five or ten year averages, you're modelling the noise, not the signal.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Dec 26th, 2008 at 01:48:38 PM EST
Also:

RealClimate


...this figure does show that in models, as in data, some years will be above trend, and some will be below trend. Anyone who expresses shock at this is either naive or ... well, you know.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 at 07:05:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chad Myers is a meteorologist with a career of more than 20 years, working for a reference news network.

Showman / scientist, meteorology / climatology; and, as others pointed out, strong winter highs  / growth or even stabilization of the polar ice cap.

This diary is like think tank scholarship. As Colman asks, wha's the point?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 at 06:16:08 PM EST
By the way. Earlier this year, you made much of the downtick of monthly temperatures in RSS MSU and UAH MSU data. Back then, Migeru criticised the comparison of first semester 2008 data with full-year averages, instead of doing monthly averages. I then generated those for the RSS TLT. Here is an update, but using 3.2 data to November:

This time, here is the UAH data, too:

Global cooling? Solar minimum? Looks more like El Nino, with even the 12-month moving averages moving up again in both datasets.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 at 08:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There were many people who made a good living for years declaring that the thinning of the ozone layer could not be anthropogenic because we as a species are too puny to "mess with Mother Nature."  The minute that DuPont folded its tent on CFCs, they got religion and realized that stratospheric ozone was being depleted by the release of man-made chemicals.

Climate change is following the same pattern.

Watched a program on Gusher of Lies on CSPANII today and was astonished once again how moot this debate is.  I propose the thought experiment of zero emissions for everything instead.  Let's try and figure out how to feed, clothe, and house the world's population with a zero emissions manufacturing system.  That seems to me to be a more worthy goal than arguing over whether the garbage we spew out into the world is lethal, crippling, or without any effect at all.  Whatever it is it's waste and a sign of inefficiency and an opportunity to save or make $$$$.

Solar IS Civil Defense

by gmoke on Mon Dec 29th, 2008 at 12:25:38 AM EST


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