Top Diaries

Don't you think that landscape photos with sweeping vistas when objects in the distance colored blue are better with some detail like part of tree or bush or any other object in front of viewer to convey that color balance was not adjusted?

by FarEasterner on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 06:59:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you have any examples of what you mean by that?
I guess I'd say it depends what the object is and whether it leads the eye into the photo or if it just distracts or clutters.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 07:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe this first photo - is top of the tree is distracting detail or not?

by FarEasterner on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 08:12:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I see what you mean. The tree bit would work better if you could see more of the tree, perhaps in a portrait rather than landscape shot. The second one has some foreground interest in the big rock that draws the eye into the rest of the photo. The tree doesn't do much for the first photo though (in my opinion!)

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 08:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ASK THE EXPERTS (none / 1)

Depends! I don't think the tree in your first image is helpful at all - if anything I find it distracting - while the second one is obviously highly limited by the available dynamic range: I'd like to see more shadow detail.

That's the sort of time that equipment matters: what was that taken with?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 02:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't Photoshop fun? (4.00 / 7)

I am not into black and white photos as an art form, but I still must make them for printing purposes. In this case, I had to make them for a newsletter that was going to be reproduced using photocopy technology. Here is the picture I had to work with:

If you needed a black and white picture in the old days, you would just convert to greyscale. With CS3, you get a dialog box suggesting that you try the new and improved black and white converter.

When you open this, you get a dialogue box that includes a pulldown with "filters."

This is what the picture looked like with no filter selected.

Since a yellow filter is what I used most in the old film days, I tried it next. The effect is pretty realistic except for the ghosting along the steeple line.

If there were green filters around in my childhood, I certainly do not remember them. But since green is the channel that is used for detail in digital photos, I thought it might be a good candidate. In fact, this is the version I went with to the "printers."

By the way, it is probably a good idea to convert the picture to greyscale AFTER these filters have been run if using some version of a laserprinter. No sense confusing such a printer with RGB information.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 08:20:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't Photoshop fun? (none / 0)

I'm hoping to get hold of CS3 soon. Thanks for taking us through that.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 03:06:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't Photoshop fun? (4.00 / 3)

You are most welcome. And thank YOU for all you do at this--not merely the photoblog.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 03:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't Photoshop fun? (none / 0)

have you tried the red filter?

used to use it a lot w/ B&W film...it tends to bring up texture, for lack of a better word.

that aspect seems to be missing, and as it's, apparently, a stone structure, it may bring out some of the underlying sense of the material.

by town on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 06:31:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't Photoshop fun? (none / 0)

That's the best part, you can try any filter you are interested in. Or you can make one up on your own. If I recall, red was a lot like yellow only more intense.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 02:47:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ASK THE EXPERTS (4.00 / 4)

Any tips for getting the best out of a shot like this? It was taken just after dusk with not much light remaining. Hand held propped on a little bridge with about 1 sec exposure. I increased the exposure in photoshop but otherwise haven't processed.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 06:11:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

PHOTOS AS USUAL (none / 0)

"PHOTOS AS USUAL"

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 02:00:59 AM EST

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 7)

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 02:06:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

snap! (4.00 / 8)

i thought you'd got access to my hard drive for a minute!

i thought that tree was in italy....

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 06:08:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: snap! (none / 0)

lol, those are very similar photos!

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 06:19:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

umbrian countryside, early spring (4.00 / 11)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 06:27:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 7)

My airplane. Such an interesting life!

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 07:53:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There's something very arty with the first one. can you see the distortion caused by the lens though? The slight curving of the edge of the door.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 08:00:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Probably caused by the altitude :-)

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 08:12:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope that was a joke or we will have to send you back to school!

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 08:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wouldn't lower pressures change the refraction indices of air and thus slightly change the focal length ? (we're probably in the 'turn on the car light to brake a bit' scale of phenomena, though)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 09:00:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Possibly on a tiny scale but the distortion is inherent to the lens. It becomes more noticeable when you see what should be straight lines near the edge of the frame that show some curvature.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 09:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought the distortion was caused by a too wide angle that meant it capture a field of vision impossible to project on a plane - a changing refraction would change the width of the angle, wouldn't it ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 09:44:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Would it be that significant? I think we should call on LEP to test this for us!

If he can reproduce the shot on the ground, similar distance away from a door but also with the camera tilted up at the same angle (that increases the distortion - looking dead on minimises the curvature, although there will still be some) then maybe we could tell...

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 09:50:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, the distortion is (depending on your point of view), a shortcoming with the lens. In Wales has a fisheye as well, I think, but ideally, the lens should be doing a rectilinear projection, keeping those lines straight. Images from my new 15mm lens coming up soon, once I get a chance to shoot some decent ones.

Wide angles don't distort, strictly speaking: they just look a bit strange.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 09:52:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You mean a good fish eye - and all lenses - should do a Mercator projection ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 10:11:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The photo I took through the polarising filter, above, is a fisheye shot. The horizon looks reasonably flat but was actually very curved with a prominent mound in the centre. The fisheye flattened the landscape. I'll dig out other shots this evening to demonstrate.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 10:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, sorry, I was in a rush out the door: a fish-eye doesn't attempt to correct for bizarre affects. A rectilinear lens, which most are expected to be does. I can't remember the focal length of In Wale's fisheye, but I don't think it's far off my new 15mm.

Cheaper zooms tend to suffer from barrel and pincushion distortion at a variety of focal lengths - the Nikon 18-200mm apparently suffers from both to varying amounts in different places. One of the things you're paying for in a fancier lens is better correction of distortion.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 02:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So what I was attempting to say was that a fisheye is intended to give lots of distortion, most lenses aren't.

Did I mention I hate fisheyes except when I can't tell they've been used?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 02:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You know. I still have that cheap clear filter on the lens- Nikon 28-105. That cheap filter may be causing the distortion.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 04:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Highly unlikely. What lens was it?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:14:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Distortion is noticeable at the lens extremes if I have well defined edges in the corner of the photo. I consider that lens a piece of black magic regardless.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 05:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 4)

This is with the Voigtlander 15mm on the Bessa L, which is a 35mm film body, so that's an ultra-wide lens. There's bugger all lens distortion, just a bit of perspective distortion from the angle the lens is at.

The development of that roll was a mess. Note to self: plastic film reels must be dry before you try to load them, or the film will jam.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:00:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 2)

Harumph...2 rare events these days...me asleep AND Christopher asleep...

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde

by Sam on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 01:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 10)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 10:45:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I can take sunset photos too! (4.00 / 6)

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 05:39:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've gone one up at my blog like this (4.00 / 4)

For Friday cloud blogging - only it's a sunrise ... :)

by olivia on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:38:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can take sunset photos too! (none / 1)

you sure can!

is that the moon up on the left?

great shot-

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 07:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can take sunset photos too! (none / 0)

Airplane trail, I don't remember seeing the moon.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 02:11:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL - Prague (4.00 / 9)

Prague roof tops from the grounds of the American Embassy compound with my old Yashica SLR and vintage Vivitar 70-210/f3.5.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 03:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL - Prague (none / 1)

Lovely Prague. Been too long since my last visit there.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tzt) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 05:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 11)

Kangaroo Valley - between Sydney and Canberra. Lovely place.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 03:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 13)

Candid shot of a man in an Amsterdam bar:

Portrait of my friend Liisa:

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tzt) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 04:59:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 2)

As soon as I saw the top photo I said to myself "that's tzt."

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 05:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, and always enjoyable!

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 09:04:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fabulous!

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 05:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wowzers (none / 1)

Awesome. Both are phenomenal, but I wish I could make a bar portrait like that. I'd even settle for just half of your skill.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:05:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wowzers (4.00 / 5)

You need to spend more time in bars "practicing"

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:23:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 2)

Lovely. However, having spent some time in the last while looking through a stack of books about photography I bought - books of photographs and photographers rather than technical manuals - I feel my inner art critic rearing his beret bearing head and saying something sneering about them being very good for the 20th century. But that's probably because he couldn't produce photos that good in a thousand years! Art criticism is a funny thing.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 02:25:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 6)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 08:54:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

LEP!!! (4.00 / 3)

Chicks for free!!!

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:06:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PHOTOS AS USUAL (4.00 / 9)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 08:55:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this weeks new seat (4.00 / 10)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 09:06:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Love it! (4.00 / 2)

LOL ... >'.'<

by olivia on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 10:56:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Love it! (4.00 / 3)

So does he

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Cat with chameleon ears (4.00 / 3)

I think you've caught the dermomorph almost there in synch wth the wall - a tad more blue and smidgin away from luminosity, and we have a totally disguised dulux moggy.

Most people would think chamele- ceebs-face. But they'd be wrong. You are simply a raydiosity surface bouncing wall photons at us. The cat has the magic ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 04:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cat with chameleon ears (4.00 / 3)

Well he does talk to me frequently, and is trying to make me think he's a dog.

Thought you were away soaking up the sun somewhere.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 06:57:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Plane delayed. Just about to have a shower and get myself to the airport...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 07:45:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well have a good time, come back tanned and relaxed.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 08:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cat with chameleon ears (none / 1)

I will certainly do my best. I was just checking the sun stress factor for the week, but the numbers mean nothing. And I packed the watercolour kit, so a Monday art blog?

Take care yourelf, and don't let those 4 footed aliens kidnap you.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 08:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is this the cat in the video playing fetch?

You're clearly a dangerous pinko commie pragmatist.

by Vagulus on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 09:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 04:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

New toy (4.00 / 4)

PB-6 bellows, 2p coin. Going to take some while to get used to. Focussing is difficult, avoiding camera shake is even tougher. But awesome results.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 07:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow! (none / 0)

B/c of the focusing, will you have to use it inside? I'm thinking of outside flower close-ups or insects, where wind would be a factor.

by olivia on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:42:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow! (none / 1)

Chances of me getting this outside are fairly remote so it may well be a case of cut flowers and obscure things at least until I figure out how best to set up fairly quickly.

I will invest in a proper extension ring for connecting the camera body to the bellows (battery grip sticks out too far to turn the camera around to screw it in), I have a cheap set at the moment which don't screw tightly in so it can come loose if I move it without care. Glad of my very secure tripod though.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 01:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New toy (none / 0)

Are you trying to focus with the focus ring or by moving the camera?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:49:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New toy (none / 0)

Both. Rough focus by moving the camera back and forth, or adjusting how extended the bellows are and then fine focus with the focussing ring. Trying out different lenses too. My 50mm lens has to be almost touching to be in focus and it blocks out the light. Certainly still getting the hang of it.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 01:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New toy (none / 0)

I can't remember: does reversing the 50mm make a difference?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 01:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New toy (none / 1)

I think it should do but I need to get a reverse ring I think. My PhD viva is on Thursday so I am not meant to be playing with bellows yet.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 01:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New toy (none / 0)

Oh, ok. Ask me next week - I got one.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 02:04:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New toy (none / 0)

* drooool *

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 02:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sleeping. (4.00 / 6)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sleeping. (none / 1)

I'm sure Sam will thank you for this, one day.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 01:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The new toy - Bessa L and 15mm lens (4.00 / 2)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 02:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The new toy - Bessa L and 15mm lens (4.00 / 2)

Set-up for that shot was this:

SB-800 in remote mode, D200 pop-up flash in commander mode, lots of paper to wrap some light around the camera.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 02:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The new toy - Bessa L and 15mm lens (none / 0)

Hmm. Should have put some more light behind the camera.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 02:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The new toy - Bessa L and 15mm lens (4.00 / 2)

Backlight baby - cheapest trick in the book, and, amazingly, not something you encounter in documentary reality, but a modelling tool defined by 80 years of movies and Karshness.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 04:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The new toy - Bessa L and 15mm lens (none / 0)

* drooool *

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 02:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The new toy - Bessa L and 15mm lens (4.00 / 3)

A 15mm lens and black and white film is not what I would choose to photograph spring flowers in a park rushing from hospital to car with a ten day old baby, but here we go anyway: all in Merrion Square in Dublin.

Steps

False colour, but not far off the correct impression of these - the flowers were all shades of white or green:

Flowers

The colour here is just false, but black and white just gave the wrong impression. This is really just a test shot - I'm shooting from maybe 60cm from the flowers in the front of shot.

More flowers

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 05:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The new toy - Bessa L and 15mm lens (none / 0)

I like the effects, they work well.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 05:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The new toy - Bessa L and 15mm lens (none / 1)

You know what? That second image is pretty effective on a big screen, but just doesn't look right small. I think I'll repost it at full resolution!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 05:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Self Portrait. (4.00 / 2)

This is me in my son's house near Baltimore with my new Canon Elph which is smaller than a pack of cigarettes. I went to an Orioles' baseball game today in Baltimore and I have some good photos of the game which I'll post next week.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 12:12:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Self Portrait. (none / 1)

Hello there!

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 02:12:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by spg on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 12:08:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]