Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? | 93 comments (93 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (4.00 / 4)

I did silly little over-simplified graphic representations of who gets to choose whom in the various systems:

US system with executive President:

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

(British, Dutch, Scandinavian, Spanish) parliamentary democracy:

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with Parliament-elected ceremonial President (Germany, Italy, Hungary etc.):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with popularly elected weak ceremonial President (Portugal, Slovakia etc.):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with both PM and strong (some executive powers) President (France, Poland, Russia):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 05:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (none / 1)

Brilliant!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 05:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (4.00 / 3)

And Colman provided this BBC diagram of the Iranian system:

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

DoDo (none / 0)

you should definitely put this in a diary - maybe even as a front page story so that it can be put as a "debate" on political systems.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DoDo (none / 0)

OK, will do so tomorrow morning, then also with some arguments for/against the various systems. (Now I should be in bed since an hour...)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (none / 0)

Wait, does "government" mean the judiciary?

If not then I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the American model.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (none / 0)

It means the Cabinet.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (none / 0)

That's really interesting that one would equate
"government" with "cabinet." We generally see the government as the sum total of the executive, legislative and judiciary branches. Now I understand your problem with presidentialism.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (4.00 / 2)

Why is that interesting? It's common [non-technical] usage. We do way "executive" on occasion, but at least in Spain it sounds pedantic. Then again, when one says "the President will ask Prodi to form a Government" or "European heads of state and government" there is no ambiguity.

Americans will usually say "administration" where Europeans say "government", I now realize. In Europe I think "administration" is synonimous with "state bureaucracy" and not restricted to the Cabinet or the heads of national government agencies.

I must not have made myself clear. I don't have a problem with American, French, or Russian presidentialism. I do have a problem with the presidentialisation [i.e., personalisation of politics on the party leaders and of admninistration on the prime minister] of our parliamentary systems.

I suggest that you google "Blair presidential style" to see what I mean. It is entirely possible that calling this "presidentialisation" is a popular misinterpretation of the American system, but that's another story.

Dodo should really turn this into a diary so we can hash it out there.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (none / 1)

Technically, the US Senate has to approve the nominations of US Cabinet members. Although our pathetic Senate rarely doesn't approve someone because they hope to get free passes when their party has the Presidency. Like many things, what the Constitution calls for and what happens in practice are not always the same.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 09:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (none / 0)

Well, Presidents facing hostile majorities in Congress sometimes can't get their nominees appointed [See Clinton and his attorney generals]. Even with a majority, an aggressive minority can use confirmation hearings to make a nominee politically untenable, though that would be rare.

In this connection, I am not entirely happy with DoDo's diagrams because generally there should be "proposes" arrows from the head of state down to the PM and from the President/PM down to the rest of the cabinet, and "approves" arrows up from the parliament to the PM and/or cabinet.

In many bicameral systems there are also members of the upper house who are not popularly elected [as was the case in the US initially]: senators "by royal designation", "nominated by the provincial/state government", "lifetime senators"...].

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:14:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (none / 0)

I am not entirely happy with DoDo's diagrams because generally there should be "proposes" arrows from the head of state down to the PM and from the President/PM down to the rest of the cabinet, and "approves" arrows up from the parliament to the PM and/or cabinet.

Didn't I omit that only in the case of the American system?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:09:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? (none / 0)

No arrows into "PM" unless you intend them to apply to the entire triangle and not just to the bottom. Also, what's the difference between "appoints" and "nominates"?

Maybe the orange arrows pointing into the middle of the brack arrows?

It just didn't seem clear to me.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:14:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Villepin a cinder, Chirac toast? | 93 comments (93 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

2024 end of year review and the prospects for 2025

More Status Quo please - for now

Bethlehem Lies In Palestine

Full Circle from Baghdad to Damascus

The Really Hard Work Starts Now

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - 2024

The Irish general election draws near

Recent Diaries

Reception Angela Merkel In Amsterdam: Freedom

M.A.D. -- Seconds Before Midnight

Leader of War Terrorists

Assembly: ICC The Hague Under Duress

2024 end of year review and the prospects for 2025

Ukrainian and Al Qaeda Terror Joined in Syria

Bethlehem Lies In Palestine

Full Circle from Baghdad to Damascus

Turks and Sauds to Install Sunni Terror in Damascus, Syria -...

More Back-Stabbing in the New Middle East

#WeAreNATO v Rest of the World

The Really Hard Work Starts Now

US Syrian Quagmire - A Second Life

More Status Quo please - for now

The Arab States Are Faced with Virulent Zionism in Israel

December 2024

Next Step An Integrated, Sovereign Europe

Making the Europe and BreXit Trump Proof ...

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - 2024

Not A Permanent Ceasefire Lebanon-Israel

Occasional Series