Secret prisons, the EU, and a very strong warning | 33 comments (33 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Secret prisons, the EU (4.00 / 3)

More from the FT

Washington seeks to shift EU focus from 'secret jails'
The US sought yesterday to push ahead with its attempt to strengthen ties with Europe, in spite of the continuing furore over allegations that Washington has maintained secret prisons in the continent.
(...)
The Council of Europe, a pan-European grouping, yesterday called for the co-operation of all its 46 member governments, in its own investigation into the affair. The European Commission has declared that hosting secret detention facilities would be incompatible with the obligations of EU membership. One senior US official has privately remarked that the issue of the treatment of terror suspects is the one he most hates addressing in public. The controversy also complicates the US's attempted rapprochement with the EU.
In spite of visits to Europe by President George W. Bush, three-quarters of Europeans polled in a survey by the German Marshall Fund of the US said relations with the US had stayed the same or become worse over the previous 12 months.
Mr Fried said the two sides of the Atlantic had to move beyond "analysing the US-European partnership as if it were a sick child", and focus instead on a common agenda such as Middle East reform and democratisation beyond Europe.

the issue of the treatment of terror suspects is the one he most hates addressing in public.

Poor man... Hint: actually treat terror suspects in accordance with the (US) law and you'll be fine...

analysing the US-European partnership as if it were a sick child

Another hint: it would not be analysed as such if it weren't. It's been bitten by a rapid dog.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 05:43:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm very glad... (4.00 / 3)

... that I decided to cross-post here. There are some fantastic comments on the thread at The Next Hurrah, but check out this one. My very own troll. How incredibly ignorant and and "we rule the world".

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 05:47:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 1)

how fitting this criticism comes from Europe, which has a sorry history of appeasement.

Yes, we have been appeasing the US for 4 years now, and we're getting rather tired of it. So, don't push it because you are still mired in your "two simultaneous wars" with no end in sight. The US needs its European allies more than the Europeans need US secret prisons on their territory.

Why doesn't this "Kate" volunteer her basement as a detention facility?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 05:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 1)

Maybe someone should arrest this Kate for suggesting things that are obviously illegal in the USA. Maybe she is a terrorist, trying to undermine the constitutional order and subvert the country. I think that a few days in a cell somewhere could make her intentions clearer.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:01:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 0)

She should definitely be subject to "pressure" so she "softens up" and gives up "actionable intelligence" about "her associates".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 0)

I know, why don't we bash Kate over the head and...

Oh dear, I'm getting carried away again.

;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:24:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 0)

Not on the head, not on the head... It leaves marks ! (snark)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 07:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 0)

I think quite a few veterans of the Battle of Britain would be very much offended by that statement. And the pilots in that were not only Brits, but Continental Europeans, Canadians, Aussies, and Americans.

Me thinks Kate needs to read some history...from, you know, books...and turn Fox News off.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 07:01:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 0)

Americans are consumed by the meme that they "saved Europe from the Germans twice". They will tell you at the slightest opportunity that "if it wasn't for the US of A you'd be speaking German". Problem is, German is the second most spoken language in Europe anyway, as a native language ans also as a foreign language. And I usually say that if it hadn't been for Hitler we would all be speaking German as Germany was an industrial, scientific and philosophical leader even through the terrible depression of the 1920's and 30's.

The problem is not Fox News. The problem is that Americans construct their worldview around the City on the Hill, the Last Best Hope of Mankind, and the one thing you cannot challenge is people's worldview---you won't change it and they'll hate you for the challenge. This is where hubris comes from, and it will be their downfall, and they need to fall down and crawl back up like the Japanese and the Germans did. I just hope they won't take the whole lot of us with them.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 07:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 0)

It's certainly a myth to say that it was all America. The Brits and Soviets played critical roles. More critical than America's, though America's role was, of course, crucial. I'm personally convinced that, had it not been for Hitler's losses in the Battle of Britain and the invasion of Russia, history would've been very different.

In the end, Germany turned into one of the great success stories of the 20th Century. Europe went into a spectacular boom after WWII -- like nothing Western Civilization had (or has) ever seen, and much of that came from Germany.

What bothers me about many conservatives in America is the attitude of "We saved your ass in WWII" when none of us were even alive when the war was fought.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 09:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 0)

I'll add to that, what bothers me is the notion that a previous good deed justifies a bad deed now.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Nov 30th, 2005 at 04:18:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very glad... (none / 0)

Oh and to add an appropriate UK-centric bitterness to the issue, you Yanks were nothing but mercenaries. You were well paid for your part. I believe Britain's payments to the US for material aid offered in the war finally expired just a couple of years ago...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Nov 30th, 2005 at 04:20:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

To be fair (none / 1)

This is not a troll, it's just an ignorant, scared person. It's a very common mindset, to think that toughness will make you invulnerable. It's also a mindst that makes terrorism a bigger problem than it is.

people who are willing to kill themselves are pretty much impossible to stop. It might thus be a good idea to avoid policies that spawn more and more people willing to kill themselves;
again, if we are fighting for our "freedom", the way to do it is probably not to curtail our rights. ("But I a not a terrorist" - yes, but who will you tell if you ever get arrested, because you sat in the bus next to someone who is on a FBI list, or because your phone number is in the addressbook of the neighbor of a terrorist suspect, or....)
terrorism is nothing new around the world, it did not appear out of nowhere on 9/11. A number of countries are leanrt to deal with it, and live with it, without going to war with the whole world (and they are not all pussies).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 05:58:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To be fair (none / 0)

Jérôme, how can you forget that "law abiding citizens have nothing to worry about"?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:02:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mindsets (none / 0)

It's a very common mindset, to think that toughness will make you invulnerable.

Isn't that what Bush's 2004 campaign was all about, and the reason people voted for him? "9/11 changed everything, and I'm waging the War on Terror™, which means I'm tough!"

Also, I hate to slam some of my fellow Americans, but the "I'm so badass" attitude isn't just a stereotype (when you're talking about Bush voters, in particular).

It's also a mindset that makes terrorism a bigger problem than it is.

Right - I mean, the Iraq war was all about being "tough" and taking down Saddam. And look what happened: terrorism has INCREASED, in part because of the Iraq war.

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your troll Kate (4.00 / 2)

.
Handsomely "forgot" Al Qaeda HQ and OBL were/are located in Afghanistan and supported by the Taliban, a creation of the Pakistani government and ISS. Iran and Iraq were fervent opponents of Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Iraq is the wrong place to fight Al Qaeda, costing 2100+ American lives, 16,700+ U.S. casualties and 40,000+ Iraqi lives.

Only three states recognized the Taliban regime on 911 :: Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and UAE Dhubai et al.

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

▼▼▼ READ MY DIARY

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:21:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Carlyle Gives Me the Shivers ... (none / 0)

Monographs by Ehsan Ahrari

Jihadi Groups, Nuclear Pakistan and the New Great Game pdf file - 50 pages
Published August 2001 (Carlyle: Strategic Studies Institute, 2001)

The Dynamics of the Great Game in Muslim Central Asia
(Washington, D.C: National Defense University Press, January 1996)

Crawford Texas August 25, 2001

But, alas ... George doesn't read books nor PDB briefs when on holiday in Texas.

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

▼▼▼ READ MY DIARY

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 09:41:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Secret prisons, the EU (4.00 / 2)

Mr Fried said the two sides of the Atlantic had to move beyond "analysing the US-European partnership as if it were a sick child", and focus instead on a common agenda such as Middle East reform and democratisation beyond Europe.

Yeah, democratisation in the US would be a goog thing to focus on.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 05:53:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Secret prisons, the EU, and a very strong warning | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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