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how fitting this criticism comes from Europe, which has a sorry history of appeasement.
Yes, we have been appeasing the US for 4 years now, and we're getting rather tired of it. So, don't push it because you are still mired in your "two simultaneous wars" with no end in sight. The US needs its European allies more than the Europeans need US secret prisons on their territory.

Why doesn't this "Kate" volunteer her basement as a detention facility?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 05:57:49 AM EST
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Maybe someone should arrest this Kate for suggesting things that are obviously illegal in the USA. Maybe she is a terrorist, trying to undermine the constitutional order and subvert the country. I think that a few days in a cell somewhere could make her intentions clearer.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:01:35 AM EST
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She should definitely be subject to "pressure" so she "softens up" and gives up "actionable intelligence" about "her associates".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:04:17 AM EST
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I know, why don't we bash Kate over the head and...

Oh dear, I'm getting carried away again.

;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 06:24:15 AM EST
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Not on the head, not on the head... It leaves marks ! (snark)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 07:59:55 AM EST
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I think quite a few veterans of the Battle of Britain would be very much offended by that statement.  And the pilots in that were not only Brits, but Continental Europeans, Canadians, Aussies, and Americans.

Me thinks Kate needs to read some history...from, you know, books...and turn Fox News off.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 07:01:38 PM EST
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Americans are consumed by the meme that they "saved Europe from the Germans twice". They will tell you at the slightest opportunity that "if it wasn't for the US of A you'd be speaking German". Problem is, German is the second most spoken language in Europe anyway, as a native language ans also as a foreign language. And I usually say that if it hadn't been for Hitler we would all be speaking German as Germany was an industrial, scientific and philosophical leader even through the terrible depression of the 1920's and 30's.

The problem is not Fox News. The problem is that Americans construct their worldview around the City on the Hill, the Last Best Hope of Mankind, and the one thing you cannot challenge is people's worldview---you won't change it and they'll hate you for the challenge. This is where hubris comes from, and it will be their downfall, and they need to fall down and crawl back up like the Japanese and the Germans did. I just hope they won't take the whole lot of us with them.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 07:44:03 PM EST
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It's certainly a myth to say that it was all America.  The Brits and Soviets played critical roles.  More critical than America's, though America's role was, of course, crucial.  I'm personally convinced that, had it not been for Hitler's losses in the Battle of Britain and the invasion of Russia, history would've been very different.

In the end, Germany turned into one of the great success stories of the 20th Century.  Europe went into a spectacular boom after WWII -- like nothing Western Civilization had (or has) ever seen, and much of that came from Germany.

What bothers me about many conservatives in America is the attitude of "We saved your ass in WWII" when none of us were even alive when the war was fought.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 09:22:47 PM EST
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I'll add to that, what bothers me is the notion that a previous good deed justifies a bad deed now.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Nov 30th, 2005 at 04:18:36 AM EST
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Oh and to add an appropriate UK-centric bitterness to the issue, you Yanks were nothing but mercenaries. You were well paid for your part. I believe Britain's payments to the US for material aid offered in the war finally expired just a couple of years ago...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Nov 30th, 2005 at 04:20:57 AM EST
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