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time news coverage of Hurricane Katrina?  When we heard things like
10,000 dead bodies would be found when the waters were pumped out of NO.
 
But of course it will take years to drain the water.
 
Hundreds are being raped in the Superdome.
 
It's all a plot to mistreat the poor and black by the American government, who of course are neocons intent on restarting the class war.
etc, etc, etc.
Or do you think the news coverage and criticisms of American during the largest natural disaster (certainly one of, due to the level 4/5 hurricane hitting a city built under sea level, surrounded by the ocean, a huge lake and the Mississippi) was totally reasonable and accurate, while the news coverage of France's troubles is foolish and ignorant?  Is unfair in the eyes of the beholder?

Ah, but how foolish I am!!  I forgot that I asked a similar question earlier on was put straight with the following insightful analysis:

Well, the comparison with Katrina is certainly not appropriate. Hundreds died or were left to cope on their own for days; government was spectacularly ineffective.
Here, you have car fires, which are talked about more than usual, but do not seem to be happening that much more than usual, you had a few malicious fires, and skirmishes between gangs and the police, with a lot of focus from a lot of TV and media.

A few burning cars at night and a few kids throwing rocks make for good TV, but how that leads to gleeful talk about France's multiple failures is an interesting phenomenon on its own.

To me, this is a spectacular political blunder by both Sarkozy and Villepin, which put the spotlight on some real problems, not a crisis.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

Sorry, I don't know what came over me, to make such a stupid comment in this same vein again.
by wchurchill on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 12:19:18 PM EST
I didn't do such an analysis. Did you? Why not?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 12:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hit August 29.  
by wchurchill on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 12:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent excuse. Feel free to do a retrospective.

Look, I understand that you feel defensive about the US, but I don't know that it's up to me to defend the coverage of US problems by (largely) US media - the same people that are spouting crap about France were spouting crap about Katrina. I do recall rather a lot of scepticism about some of the coverage here, especially the bit about riots and rapes.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 12:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
typing and time, here it basically is from a previous post:
I've been reading and participating in your reports on "Paris riots" and the resulting threads.  It occured to me, and I wonder what you think, that this is making it so clear that we all see events in terms of our own mindset, our own view of reality.  we are all so attached to our mindset, and to a large extent that dictates our response.

Maybe this is simplistic, but let me continue.  France has a real challenge, that any country would have, with a large immigrant population with different religion, culture, etc.  But it's interesting how so many of our, and I mean our, comments, come from a personal perspective of each of us--for some it is a far left view, for others a moderate left view, some centrist views, some left social/right economics, maybe occassionally a right social/right economics--but whatever, all the comments come from their own viewpoint.  So some attack France for being in this place because they are so leftist; others attack this saying the right has really been in charge.  I guess for me, it was just a dramatic example of how we each see the world through our own filter, things we are attached to.

I know as detached as I'm trying to train my mind to be (long ways to go for this particular "monkey mind"), one of my reactions as a (socially liberal/economically conservative/christian buddhist--$10,000 of psychoanalysis required right there) to Jermome's cries regarding are these riots?, is, where were his cries when everyone is bashing  so many things like the katrina response.

Not sure what my comments are worth, maybe they are just an observation.  so many of the things we discuss are foremost just real human issues, but our personal responses (obviously me too) are just so conditioned by our mind set.  Any thoughts?

I'm thinking that all of us get defensive, when things we believe in are attacked, and particularly when we believe they are unfairly attacked.  I wasn't on this site for the Katrina dialogue, and have only seen some "cheap shots" from time to time since.  (I started to find some examples, but I realize I'll just piss some body off, and get this dialogue off subject).  I find that those on the site who are attached to the European social model, or France's version specifically, appear to have been just as defensive as some of the Americans, at other times.  I guess it was a call for awareness of this--attempting to shine the light on the similarity of reactions.  
by wchurchill on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 04:32:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Both Katrina and the French disturbances have recently exposed a poor underclass with a large ethnic minority make up that both countries would rather have stayed hidden. Dented national pride does give occaision to defensive reactions.
by observer393 on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 11:21:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
my writings were so poor, that no one could understand them.
by wchurchill on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 01:17:05 AM EST
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IIRC, you joined ET earlier than that, and you commented on Katrina.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 01:47:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So what's the situation like on the ground in NO today?
what's the final death toll? Does anyone even know??

France is currently organising concerts to help New Orleans come back to life. Help was offered at the time of the flood, and was treated with contempt.

Has anyone offered to help France (apart from Gaddafi) instead of wallowing in the satisfaction of finding their favorite enemy bogged down in these troubles?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 12:46:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. I don't think Katrina history is the issue here. I'm writing about our reactions to these situations.   Please see response to Coleman above.  However, in response to your question, it's thought to be about 1000 in the state of Louisiana.  Katrina is of course a natural disaster, and there are many issues in the count, explained in this article, and here's an earlier article, Katrina Death Toll May Not Be As High as Feared
  2.  "Help was offered at the time of the flood, and was treated with contempt."  Curious what this was all about?  Do you have a link?  I didn't see anything other than a somewhat bogus report about a British food offer that I saw in a tabloid.  But I would love to read about this.
  3.  I, and the people I know, are certainly not wallowing in satisfaction about these French problems?  And I think we're still trying to understand how big the problem is.  What kind of help do you mean?
by wchurchill on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 05:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by wchurchill: ... a somewhat bogus report about a British food offer ...

snip

Bogus, huh? Nice try.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 05:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes a somewhat bogus report,,,,,why are you snipping (not sure what that means) me?  I'm asking Jerome for what he is talking about--I assume he means a French offer.  And you don't know, I think, what I'm talking about--do you?
by wchurchill on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 06:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The UK food was burnt after arrival in the US. It were 40.000 ready - to - eat rations of the same sort eaten by NATO troops in Afghanistan. This includes US troops. German planes were not given permission to land and had to return half way over the Atlantic. I spoke to friends from RELEX/AIDCO in Brussels who were foaming because of their US FEMA colleagues reluctance to let them ship emergency aid over to the Gulf Coast states.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
by Ritter on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 06:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The reason for the delay is it contained, or might have contained, british beef which was banned due to mad cow disease.  Officials were implementing, they thought, US policy.  It was a bureaucratic snafu, but frankly in the bureaucracy of the US government, getting it fixed in 5 days is almost a miracle.  It did piss the Brits off because they busted their butts to help.  But it was delivered, and it was not a political insult.  Now maybe you want to argue that other governments are not as bureaucratic as the US,,,,????  But I don't think these things rise to the level of insults.  If they do, I've been insulted by a number of European countries a lot of times.Refer to story in the London Times

The story was covered with much less accuracy and much more vehemence in the tabloids 1 1/2 weeks after the problem was fixed.  I posted on another site at that time:

While there is some truth in the Daily Mirror story, it is a recycled story written on September 19 that is at least 9 days out of date.  For those of you not familiar with the Daily Mirror, it is a British tabloid, and I'll let you go to their website for yourself and draw you own conclusions.    http://www.mirror.co.uk/
I'm not sure what stories will be highlighted when you look, but some of you may enjoy "Dad killed mum,,,,but I've forgiven him" and "Rick Parfitt: My big mistakes on booze..I ended up in bed with an electrician called Nigel and his wife"

I find the London Times to be a much better source of news, and it was the only other source I found with the story.  Here is the url to their article written September 10:

So if you want to chastise US bureaucracy on this kind of basis, be my guest.
by wchurchill on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 01:08:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was not fixed in 5 days as you say.

Here is a BBC report from mid-October that tells the rest of the story. The offered rations were mostly kept on hold in Little Rock, and the US gov't is looking for an opportunity to send them elsewhere in the world where people are hungry but not protected by federal regulations against mad cow disease. Contributions by other European nations were also rejected in this way.

Your self-quote from "another site", btw, was also posted here on ET by one wchurchill on September 27 (see my comment above on dates). It was entitled Rubbish. Someone must have been using your nick?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 02:03:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks for the BBC comment which I'll look at in a minute.  But I was sure I had posted this on ET, but when I checked my comments on my history, it wasn't there.  I actually wanted to refer to it.  How did you find it?  Obviously I'm missing an insight on our system--btw, it was also true that I posted it on another site, Daily Koz, and I found it there on their history.
by wchurchill on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 02:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
which supports my point:"US rejects British Katrina beef
 The US said meals were overlooked due to the chaos after Katrina
The US has blocked the distribution of around 350,000 packaged meals donated by Britain for victims of Hurricane Katrina, because of mad cow disease."

the US has decided, rightly or wrongly, that they don't want Brit beef.  so that is the issue, nothing about rudely turning down charity.

No takers'

"By the time our inspectors were on the ground, we had confirmed that there was no longer the emergency need," she said.

"It's critical to the story that our inspectors confirmed that the people were being fed before they held back any MREs (Meals Ready to Eat)."

Adam Ereli, deputy spokesman at the State Department, said Washington was looking at other countries to donate the food to, but had not yet found any takers.

"We are looking to use these MREs in the same spirit of charity and goodwill that they were provided to us.

"We would certainly hope that other countries in need, or other needy populations would be able to make use of them, and we certainly invite any countries that see a need to contact us," he said.

While I'm glad you referenced the article, it seems odd that your comments slanted the meaning of the article, don't you think?

by wchurchill on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 03:27:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't believe I slanted anything.

  1. I corrected your assertion that the "problem" was rapidly fixed.

  2. I doubt if many people will subscribe to the notion that the main point of the BBC article is the spin put on the incident by US spokesfolks. The contributions were rejected, and not as a result of bureaucratic incompetence. There's no slant in making that clear.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 04:33:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by wchurchill on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 04:44:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm glad you think it's funny.

It's your comments that are slanted. You began with Rubbish and you ended with extensive quotes from US post-facto damage-limitation spin.

You have been consistently wrong on this issue from A to Z. That is now clear. End of "joke".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 06:18:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are those actual quotes you're using at the top of your comment? Could you tell us where they're from?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 01:47:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
press coverage, quotes from frantic CYA, clueless politicians, and other of the usual American crowd looking to get on TV.  So no they are not quotes, but here is a link to one of the estimates of 10,000 dead in New Orleans (my first point), who proved his ability to warn people early to get out of town, or use the school buses parked in city parking lots to help his constituents, was about as good as his ability to estimate deaths:Katrina Death Toll May Not be as High as FearedKatrina Death Toll May Not be as High as Feared"Mayor Ray Nagin had warned earlier this week that the death toll could reach 10,000. State emergency authorities had ordered 25,000 body bags."  There are issues on the count addressed in a link above where I resonded to Jerome, but it appears now the count in the STATE of Louisiana will be about 10% of that estimate, and New Orleans maybe 20% below that--might be worth reading the link as it reminds us of some of the issues on death tolls of natural disasters.
by wchurchill on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 05:29:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The thing is, it is a bit unfair to blame us here for biased coverage of Katrina that you attribute yourself to local authorities and local coverage.

So you may fairly consider that our opinion of the events in France is too complacent or optimistic or dismissive, but please do not accuse us of double standards. We cannot be blamed for everything that anyone associated with the left in Europe or in the USA writes, or for anything that the press reports.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 06:47:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
failure of communication here.
by wchurchill on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 01:20:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please feel free to blame yourself.

By presenting:

It's all a plot to mistreat the poor and black by the American government, who of course are neocons intent on restarting the class war.

as a supposed quote or summary of thinking by someone here, or in the European or American media, it's hard to avoid the impression you're communicating in an inflammatory manner.  

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 01:35:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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