Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
So it was disingenuous for Chirac to refer to these people as workers as they were indeed refugees.

I saw an exhibition about the Republican exile three years ago. It was heartbreaking how France treated the flleing Republicans. As they had their rifles confiscated they admonished the French "you'll need to give me back that rifle soon enough".

I have heard that the first US tank to enter liberated Paris was manned by Spaniards.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 04:12:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, had the rifles not been confiscated, France would have had the ready help of a large army of Spanish résistance fighters, willing to die to fight off the Nazis. Instead, these folk joined the résistance without guns!

It's a possibility, I mean. However, there is also the possibility that had they had their rifles in 1940, they would have engaged the Nazis as a a group, i.e. as soldiers, and not as guerrilla/résistance fighters ... in which case they would have been crushed by the Nazi leviathan.

About Spanish immigrants, there has been immigration in the 50s and 60s too, some worker, some refugees, but still overall more refugees than workers (I need to check up on figures for this, but I can distinctly remember this from my glorious study days).

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 05:49:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, Alex, could you post a diary1 on the gender difference in banlieu inhabitant integration? That's one thing I haven't seen covered here. (Tho', due to lack of time, I have not read most posts on the French 'riots' lately.)

  1. Move your mouse over the upper bar, in the middle, "Alex in Toulouse's page", choose "Write a new diary entry..." from the menu appearing. You'll see not one but two fields for editing - it's good to put only the first paragraph or an intro into the first, and all the rest into the second.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 06:03:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dodo, actually this is timely question. The topic has come to my mind twice in the last 24 hours, as follows:

  • this morning, I heard on radio that 65% of boys and 85% of girls get their Baccalauréat in France nowadays. I had no idea that the gap was so big;

  • yesterday, we were discussing the banlieues with colleagues, and we were noting that the girls from theses cités had much less trouble integrating into French life than the boys. In our area in central Paris, the "cité girls" are everywhere, as workers, shop attendants and pedestrians,... but the cité boys are much less visible - mostly delivery guys, some workers, and that's it.

The problem really is young males rather than the young altogether.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 06:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, I forgot to indicate to others that that's what Alex previously told me about in some detail on another blog.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 06:24:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a combination of racism and sexism.

Young women are perceived/socialized as vulnerable/helpless, whicle young men are perceived/socialized as dangerous/independent.

Young brown women are perceived as even more vulnerable than young white women, and young brown men are perceived as as even more dangerous than white men. This makes it easier for young brown females to get a job than for young brown males.

A lot of low-paying jobs are in the service sector. Women are overwhelmingly more likely to seek those jobs than men.

As for school success, boys are rowdier and brown teenagers will be inclined to drop out as they become aware of how stacked the deck is against them. The Independent had an interview with people from the area where one person was killed, and a North-African parent said that his son's teacher discouraged him from trying to study for the exit examinations because of future discrimination.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 06:57:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Et voila, I just posted a diary entry as asked!
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 03:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, definitely not refugees after 1939. Guest workers. At least that's what I remember from Africa. (Remember, L'Afrique commence aux Pyrénées).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 06:19:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hehe, that's the problem with everything that I remember from my glorious study days: all fog and no fact!

I was under the mistaken impression that Franco did cause political emigration, but after checking up you're completely right, emigration after 1939 was almost completely workers and not refugees.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 04:39:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When I was a kid living in Toulouse back in the early 70s, my folks sent me to a summer camp in the Pyrenées where many of the counsellors were from Spain. I remember they taught us anti-Franco campfire songs; I kind of understood they had left Spain for political reasons.

Then again, they may have picked up the anti-Franquist tradition from their own parents...

And yes, plenty of people of Spanish origin in Toulouse; when I was in primary school, one my best buddies was named Emilio.

by Bernard on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's been a lot of immigration until at least the 70s from Spain in Portugal - in fact, the time it stopped is certainly around their entry into the EU (suggesting that making Turkey join the EU is the best way to stop immigration from there...).

I have strong anectodal evidence of Spanish immigration - and integration - my very own concierge is Spanish; her two kids are now in University (in Spain, after going to school here in Paris); some old friends of my wife are the daughter of Spanish laborers in Switzerland and went to univiersity in London and are now working in good jobs in Switzerland.

INSEE shows that Portugal is still the first country of origin of immigrants in France today, before Algeria and Morocco.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 10th, 2005 at 06:36:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, there is also the possibility that had they had their rifles in 1940, they would have engaged the Nazis as a a group, i.e. as soldiers, and not as guerrilla/résistance fighters ... in which case they would have been crushed by the Nazi leviathan.
I was under the impression that the French Army was not crushed but mostly just outflanked as the Germans invaded France through Belgium and the Ardennes. I suppose there was no way the Spanish soldies would have been allowed to keep their guns unless they had been invited to join the French army, which in Early 1939 would have been preposterous. I bet many of them would have preferred to join the Legion Étrangère than to be in a refugee camp, though. The Spanish Republicans would have ended up either in a concentration camp or in the Free French Forces, which is where they ended up anyway.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series