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I'm all for democracies taking the gloves off with their most insidious enemies and trashing the crap out of them, by every means necessary, even borderline or outright illegal. Fine. All for it. Great! Count me in!!! How do I arm this bomb I'm just about to place in the plane of this abominable dictator?

And yet this editorial still doesn't make a single bit of sense. Torture is not only immoral and contrary to all the values held by liberal democracies but it doesn't even have any redeeming practical value for intelligence. It just get the victims to spit whatever they think the torturers want to hear. It doesn't work! At all! It's just a complete waste of time.

Why on Earth are there still reputedly serious people to defend this shit!?!
by Francois in Paris on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 06:50:34 PM EST
On the utter uselessness of torture, the Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi case or how to find an inexistent link between Osama Bin Forgotten and Saddam Hussein, provided you bash and shock a guy hard enough.

I hope that affair will become a compulsory case study every single of our future intelligence operatives. And I'd get all editorialists in this cursus, too.
by Francois in Paris on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 07:02:10 PM EST
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I'm all for democracies taking the gloves off with their most insidious enemies and trashing the crap out of them, by every means necessary, even borderline or outright illegal.
Francois, go read this and come back.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 07:05:19 PM EST
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I know the GAL affair and, quite aptly, you answer it yourself:
I dare say that no tears were shed for Lasa and Zabala, and that the only thing that most Spaniards regret about GAL is how incompetently their operations were carried out, and all the collateral damage they caused (most notably, the kidnapping of Segundo Marey by mistate).
I happen to be in this majority. Yes, in this case, the problem was competence and control. Those guys were incompetent and out of control and that's the problem of all clandestine operations. A democracy can use dirty methods that cannot be exposed to the public and still remain in control. But you need very strong oversight.

Interestingly enough, France's DGSE itself is currently pushing for increased parliamentary control on intelligence and clandestine operation. Literally lobbying to put more control on itself!

It's not masochism. They simply know that their future is likely to include more and more hardcore methods, including using homo units again (homo as in homicide, not as in gay), something that has been pretty much dormant since the end of the Cold War. And they want the full, well-informed backing of the legislative branch, not just getting orders from the executive, so they won't be left hanging in the wind if things go wrong ** cough Rainbow Warrior cough ** by an executive branch who pretends to know nuffin.
by Francois in Paris on Sun Dec 11th, 2005 at 07:41:13 PM EST
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I am not part of that majority, sorry.

The problem is that some people claim the GAL was deliberately inept in order to scare France into strengthening anti-ETA cooperation.

Politically, the GAL affair paralyzed Felipe Gonzalez's government for the second half of its 14-year tenure, and breathed a whole 10 years of new life into ETA.

A mistake all around.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 12th, 2005 at 06:10:40 AM EST
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