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Do you really think that a federal EU state is going to be anymore democratic than the nation states?

That the elites will be more responsive at the federal level than at the national level?

That a federal Europe will be more egalitarian and not more elitist?

That the market-state of Europe will be run by us?

At least with a Confederation of Nation States there are some checks and balances provided by national parliaments. In terms of politicians and political access, a Federal EU would be a pale reflection of a Federal USA once the cheering has died away.

Eats cheroots and leaves.

by NeutralObserver on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 01:06:59 PM EST
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I agree that a confederation is probably better than a federal state.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 01:51:54 PM EST
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I wasn't talking about democracy or representation. I was talking about an european entity expressing itself on the global stage. Have you ever seen how european nation-state leaders greet people like Bill Gates? Not as peers, but as servants. They realise that someone like Bill has MUCH MORE POWER and on a MUCH WIDER SCALE than them, and are scared shitless to pick a fight with him. That's why the only serious challenges to the MS monopoly came from EU institutions, that DO express power on a much bigger scale. I'm not so utopian to think that a federal EU will be more democratic or more responsive to its citizens than nation states. It just happens to be the only way we can introduce some friction in the cogs of globalized corporativism, recreating some sort of antagonism. We need someone that can scare back big companies (and yes, the american friends as well, for they tend to create quagmires too much and too near our strategic interests) -- not Blair, not Schroeder and certainly not Chirac can do that at the moment. We need checks and balances on a global scale, even though they are not "100% direct democracy". When never had direct democracy anyway, we have little to lose.
by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:08:27 AM EST
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Serious challenges to the Redmond Borg's monoppoly power are coming from places like Peru, Brazil, China, India,... 3rd world countries seem to be less afraid of picking a fight with Microsoft. Admittedly, that is because they have less to lose, but also they just can't afford to pay M$'s licensing fees, plus open source is a national security issue. You don't want some multinational in Seattle having back doors to log on to your government servers, do you?

Well, apparently France thinks differently.

The EU parliament is the only force keeping corporate influence moderately at bay. If it weren't for them we'd have software patents, riduculous intellectual property laws, no REACH, and the Balkenstein directive.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:23:47 AM EST
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My point, absolutely.
by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 01:33:04 PM EST
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The politicians of a Federal EU will be just as scared of/in the pockets of Bill Gates et al as those of the nation states.

The European Parliament can resist at the moment because it does not rule, it simply has oversight.

Once the Council of Ministers is replaced by an elected Federal Executive, the corporations will target them just as they target the national leaders currently.

I don't know what solution is best, but a Federal Europe will be a lot worse than the current situation IMHO.

Eats cheroots and leaves.

by NeutralObserver on Thu Dec 15th, 2005 at 02:14:47 PM EST
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