ECJ authorises tax race to the bottom | 52 comments (52 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: ECJ authorises tax race to the bottom (none / 0)

What exactly is so ideal about the nation state?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ECJ authorises tax race to the bottom (none / 0)

Nothing, but I'd really prefer we came up with suitably democratic replacements before we end up shoving all power on a plate to multi-national corporations.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ECJ authorises tax race to the bottom (none / 1)

The problem with multinationals is that, because they have deep pockets, they can drive local companies out of business one by one if they so choose. And they even get to pay less taxes by counting the losses they incur by underselling their competition out of business as reduced income. I have no idea what difference the nation state (or any other government, democtratic or not) can make in this.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ECJ authorises tax race to the bottom (none / 1)

Well, the problem you describe is present within nations as well. Any small business faced with competition from a significantly larger one is in trouble. The government is not able to solve this problem at this time.

However, for example, if the tax law had been written more carefully, M&S would not have won this case. The power of the EU is that the market is big enough that companies will submit to the law in order to make some money. If it works in safety testing, it can work in tax law.

Obviously it's an imperfect solution, but it's a start.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:03:00 AM EST
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Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (4.00 / 2)

That it has been so far the only space where democracy has been successfully implemented.

I wouldn't mess lightly with that type of structure no matter its known shortcomings (such as nationalism, wars, etc).

by Francois in Paris on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:18:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

What is is about the State that it needs a Nation in order to be Democratic? What is a Nation?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:21:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 1)

A culturally coherent entity whose members share a community of interests strong enough to hold them together beyond social differences at an individual level.

In the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company:

3 - A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language.

I agree the notion doesn't make sense for pure liberal, i.e. one who believes in the absolute predominance of individual rights above all others.

Now, why does it matter to democracy?

Democracy assumes a large degree of mutual trust towards each other and of shared customs/values. Democracy, especially social democracy, always works best in very coherent populations: for instance, Scandinavians countries or, for quasi caricature, Switzerland at the canton level. It reduces the spectrum of disagrements and potential for serious conflicts, where minorities would feel oppressed by majoritarian rule, feel disinvested and reject democracy.

I agree it also means that it seriously reduces the scope of debates and the diversity of the body politics you can have. Successful democracies are always a bit provincial if not downright inbred.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:43:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

The large European states are losing their cultural coherence. To maintain it, they will be forced to trample on people's rights. When that happens they will no longer be worth living in, if what one cares about is the democratic state as opposed to the nation.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:52:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 1)

The large European states are losing their cultural coherence.

I'm not so sure. Yes, there are strong pressures to acculturate large European nations and European institutions have indeed been skewed towards that goal over the past 30 years. But there's an ocean between trying and succeeding, and it's the kind of gambit which is very dangerous to try and loose.

To maintain it, they will be forced to trample on people's rights.

You are perfectly correct and this is exactly what will happen.

When that happens they will no longer be worth living in, if what one cares about is the democratic state as opposed to the nation.

The nations will win. They always do. Otherwise countries like Poland or Ukraine would have disappeared a long time ago. It's not meant personally but your opinion on that matter has no importance, no more than gravity cares about your inner feelings.

F = G.m1.m2/r^2 whether you like it or not.

Now, you can choose to feign and ignore that fact and, when it hits back in your face all the harder that you tried hard to ignore it, you can regret and decry it, but it will still be your deliberate ignorance that will be at fault.

Robert Schuman was right when he said that if he had to start over, he would start with culture. Too bad alas he didn't see that at the beginning. De Gaulle too was right when he said:

Ce qu'il faut surtout pour la paix, c'est la compréhension des peuples. Les régimes, nous savons ce que c'est: des choses qui passent. Mais les peuples ne passent pas.

What we need above all to maintain peace is an understanding of nations. Governments, we know what those are: things that go away. But nations never go away.

I don't think there is anything ideal about nation-states but it's there and you have to do with them. The EU supranational utopia is not only an error but a perfect recipe for conflict and civil war. If, as I do, you want Europe, you have to build a European nation, to create a community of interests, a community of trust, a community of destiny. I don't see any of that on today's EU and that scares the crap out of me and it should scare you too.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

I'm not so sure. Yes, there are strong pressures to acculturate large European nations and European institutions have indeed been skewed towards that goal over the past 30 years. But there's an ocean between trying and succeeding, and it's the kind of gambit which is very dangerous to try and loose.

The threat to cultural coherence that I am talking about is not from without, but from within (through immigration). Acculturation by European institutions played no role in my comment. Also, I was not the one who clamored for a supranational democratic institution. The EU megastate does scare the crap out of me precisely because not enough effort is put into fostering the emergence of a European public.

So, I agree with you for the most part.

I can't have a cosmopolitan democracy so I have to content myself with keeping the nationality I was born with. Unfortunately for me, I don't have a nation that I feel allegiance towards: my strongest personal ties happen to have been with people from all over, and those who started out close to me are now half a world away.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 1)

The threat to cultural coherence that I am talking about is not from without, but from within (through immigration).

Yes, part of the issue and you are already seeing the backslash, Danemark, France, Netherlands. That's also a horse the PP will ride hard to go back to power in Spain. Also, Europe = Schengen.

Acculturation by European institutions played no role in my comment. Also, I was not the one who clamored for a supranational democratic institution.

Europe does play a big role because it allows a lot of things to escape the reach of national (democratic) policies. Making it worst, it's often to simply nullify politics (and leave the issues in private hands), not to assume responsability itself.

Also, I was not the one who clamored for a supranational democratic institution.

Eh oh Migeru, be honest! You were the one who doubted the importance of the nation-state. Tsk tsk tsk :>

I'll close on that. I'm running late on my work :(

by Francois in Paris on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 10:05:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

Touche.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 10:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

That's also a horse the PP will ride hard to go back to power in Spain.

I know that you are right on this, and I am horrified because Zapatero is doing the right thing both on immigration and on Spain's nationalities, but it will cost him.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 10:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

[OT] Zapatero looks to me as a spanish Jospin. Am I wrong?

by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 01:38:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

I don't know. Explain what you mean by "a Jospin".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 05:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 1)

The nations will win. They always do. Otherwise countries like Poland or Ukraine would have disappeared a long time ago.

I could name you dozens of countries that disappeared long ago. (BTW, Ukraine is very young.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:38:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

Modern Ukrainian national identity is at least 5 centuries old, mostly defined against Polish domination.

Name me recent examples (past 3 or 4 centuries, when the concept of nation-state really emerges) and I'm ready to bet that 9 out of 10 have disappeared under either mass migrations, forced cultural assimilation or outright genocide, not mere evaporation into thin air.

by Francois in Paris on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 03:32:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

Modern Ukrainian national identity is at least 5 centuries old

I don't think so. If it can be said to exist at all.

Ukraine can be divided into at least 3, but even better 9 regions with separate history, culture and 'identity'. They could really start to flow together only 14 years ago. Tough the Russian-speaking Southeast doesn't like it, and the Centre/North won't accept it as exclusive, the origin of the current national mythology and language is in the Western part - and formed in the 19th century, mostly on area held by the Habsburg Monarchy (and Western Christian like the Poles). The North has history as Eastern Slav political (Kyiv Rus) and religious centre (in conflict with Poland 400-300 years ago), the Centre has history as free Kossacks (in conflict with Poland at similar times). Meanwhile, the Southeast had not much to do with Poland 500 years ago, as the population is more recent settlement from central Tsarist Russia after conquest from the Ottoman Empire.

It may yet fall apart - don't you remember the tensions during the 'Orange Revolution'?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:22:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

Dodo,

Oh!

They could really start to flow together only 14 years ago.

And I'm the one putting too much emphasis on nation-states...

I don't have the time for a debate on linguistic differentiation in the 14th century, the significance of the Zaporozhian Host in 16th century and cetera, but, dear Dodo, you are pulling a fast one there.

As the nationalist movements of the 19th century, you are indulging in anachronism and anti-causality. Gimme a Warp drive :> Those movements in Ukraine, but similarly in Germany, and pretty much everywhere in Europe, do not appear out of thin air. Following the French Revolution (France's last truly serious contribution to History), they formalise nationalities, making them explicit in contemporary terms but they do not create them.

As for the tensions between the Ukrainian majority and the Russian (or more largely Russian-speaking) minority, we're talking about two fairly recent phenomenons: the overlap between the 2 populations on the eastern marches of the modern Ukrainian territory (with some Ukrainians in Russia, by the way) and even more recently, the forced Russification policy under Stalin and the continued integration of Ukraine into the USSR after him.

By the way, regarding the Stalinian Russification, I must say I'm pretty impressed to see how a nation which is not supposed to exist has managed to preserve its identity under very serious pressure. I'm saying that as a Breton French, that is someone who knows quite a bit about enforced acculturation in modern times.

by Francois in Paris on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 05:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

Name me recent examples (past 3 or 4 centuries, when the concept of nation-state really emerges) and I'm ready to bet that 9 out of 10 have disappeared under either mass migrations, forced cultural assimilation or outright genocide, not mere evaporation into thin air.

And if so, then what? Current France is a result of all three (in the last few centuries especially the second - living at the centre of this expansion, you may be much less aware of it), so are you saying we just should dismiss this happening in the future? But, you should also think of countries falling apart. Of course, believers in nationalism will claim post-facto that there never 'really' was a national feeling corresponding to that country.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

Dodo,

I'm French and I can tell you that France does exist.

I'm also of Breton roots and how nations die is part of my family lore. My late grandfather told me often enough about the "It is prohibited to spit on the floor and speak Breton" notices in public places and the many whippings he got for opening his mouth in the wrong language when he was a kid. And Brittany is dead.

Anyway, this thread is going off track. My point is not to celebrate nation-states per se or idealise their genesis (which was often repressive) and their histories (bloody enough, thank you very much) but to acknowledge the present situation and to :

Recognise the virtues of nations-states as an efficient and proven space for liberal (US sense) democracy and pretty much the only one with a serious track record.
Warn that ignoring them is a recipe for disaster in Europe.

Europe's problem is precisely that it doesn't have the coercive tools that were available to, let's say, the Jacobins in France or the Prussians in Germany, to build a nation.

And yet, if we want a democracy in Europe, we have to build a European national identity. Otherwise, we'll remain stuck in situations like the current EU budget catfight or worse.

So how do we get there?

PS: And how the Hell did we get so far down this matter? We were talking corporate taxes to start with, weren't we?

by Francois in Paris on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 06:20:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

And yet, if we want a democracy in Europe, we have to build a European national identity. Otherwise, we'll remain stuck in situations like the current EU budget catfight or worse.
So how do we get there?
PS: And how the Hell did we get so far down this matter? We were talking corporate taxes to start with, weren't we?

The issue is, how can nations stand up to corporations in a globalized (or regionally integrated) economy? Herman Daly advocates steering away from globalization into internationalism (with a focus on a return to national economic policy) as a way to foster a sustainable economy. The economic issues within the EU can be reframed (as you have done) in political terms thus: the EU can be a force for economic good (within the EU, never mind globally) only if a European national identity develops. Otherwise it may well be a damaging development.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 07:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

Yes, and absent that, EU institutions should thread very lightly on sovereign domains like taxation. The ECJ may be right in law but it is also completely tone-deaf on that case and is playing against its own legitimacy.

It clearly hasn't heard of the Constitution referendums, has no realisation of what most Europeans think of private corporations (that they are barely tolerated nuisances) and it also clearly hasn't understood, that being the final jurisdiction, its decisions are highly political, a bit like the Supreme Court is in the US.

If it had any political sense, the ECJ should have told M&S to move along.

by Francois in Paris on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 08:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 1)

Ah, so the Nation-State is a modern concept tied to the emergence of European authoritarian/absolute monarchies.

In almost all cases in Europe the strong State predates the Nation and is a necessary precondition for the National identity to set in. Then the Romantic movement of the 19th hundred constructed a lot of new national identities around linguistic communities. Italy and Germany were only recently unified and linguistic and national homogenization is still under way.

In Latin America, Bolivar's Gran Colombia split into three separate states but to a large extent the nationality still straddles the borders. Decolonization has imposed artificial states on underlying populations and created national identities.

It is unclear whether China should be considered a nation or a civilization. Ethnically and linguistically homogeneous it is not, regardless of what the Communist Party would have us believe.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 05:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

My only quip:

Decolonization has imposed artificial states on underlying populations and created national identities.

In the same vein, we could say that European states are artifical states imposed by feudal/absolutist rulers or post-war imperialist peace dictates on underlying populations, some of which created ntional identities, others forced pre-existing national identities on a far from completely identical underlying population.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 05:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

To maintain it, they will be forced to trample on people's rights.
You are perfectly correct and this is exactly what will happen.

I was rather unsettled by this, then I remembered you did not see anything wrong with GAL other than the colateral damage. Then again, the view from Paris must have been much more comfortable than from Saint-jean de Luz.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

Migeru,

Two points:

To maintain it, they will be forced to trample on people's rights.
You are perfectly correct and this is exactly what will happen.

Not a judgement. A statement of fact. Same as when I say that the PP will use immigration as a wedge issue in the coming years. It's unpleasant. It's also true.

Regarding the GAL, it all depends what's your view is on ETA actions after 1978 and France's attitude until 1986. My opinion is "very wrong and totally illegitimate" for both issues, with a special "f**cking coward" mention for the latest (and that's my country). If you want to continue the discussion, we should do that on another thread.

by Francois in Paris on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 06:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

I hoped you were just making statements of fact, not value judgements, which is sometimes hard to ascertain. I suggest we move the discussion of GAL to my history thread, assuming you have more to say about that. We seems to be in agreement on the essential points, though.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 06:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (4.00 / 2)

Migeru: The large European states are losing their cultural coherence.

Did they ever had it?

Or, was there only the illusion of it, created by trampling on people's rights?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (4.00 / 2)

Spain has had it at times, for decades at a time. The price in blood was quite high.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)

But was it cultural coherence, or the 'incoherent parts' resigning and going underground? (I1m not sure how far back in history you look - I will admit I don't know much about internal conflicts after the reconquista/unification 500 years ago and before the Carlist wars.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:55:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (4.00 / 2)

That is probably the topic of Part 3 of my Spanish History Primer, now that you mention it.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 04:46:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 1)

A culturally coherent entity whose members share a community of interests strong enough to hold them together beyond social differences at an individual level.

Does such an entity really exist outside people's heads? Or, instead, is it more true that professed members of nation have very different ideas about what the shared values are and who else is part of it? I'd vote for the latter. Even in France - Corsica, Le Pen and followers, Bretons, part of the banlieue population - it's more varied.

Also, 'hold them together' is relative - for example, 55 years ago, that would have been said about Algeria as part of metropolitan France, and who can be certain that some events won't lead to further changes.

Democracy, especially social democracy, always works best in very coherent populations: for instance, Scandinavians countries or, for quasi caricature, Switzerland at the canton level.

You mentioned Switzerland - what about federalism? What about a democracy with multiple levels - local councils, counties, cantons/states, federal state (EU)? It works fine for Switzerland in the small, for Germany on a higher level, and so-so on the highest level in India.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (4.00 / 2)

At the risk of sounding snarky, I would say that a successful "nation" is defined by its members' ability (and willingness) to kill outsiders to protect each other and to kill each other to protect the Nation.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:07:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ECJ authorises tax race to the bottom | 52 comments (52 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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