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ECJ authorises tax race to the bottom | 52 comments (52 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)
Dodo,

I'm French and I can tell you that France does exist.

I'm also of Breton roots and how nations die is part of my family lore. My late grandfather told me often enough about the "It is prohibited to spit on the floor and speak Breton" notices in public places and the many whippings he got for opening his mouth in the wrong language when he was a kid. And Brittany is dead.

Anyway, this thread is going off track. My point is not to celebrate nation-states per se or idealise their genesis (which was often repressive) and their histories (bloody enough, thank you very much) but to acknowledge the present situation and to :
  • Recognise the virtues of nations-states as an efficient and proven space for liberal (US sense) democracy and pretty much the only one with a serious track record.
  • Warn that ignoring them is a recipe for disaster in Europe.
Europe's problem is precisely that it doesn't have the coercive tools that were available to, let's say, the Jacobins in France or the Prussians in Germany, to build a nation.

And yet, if we want a democracy in Europe, we have to build a European national identity. Otherwise, we'll remain stuck in situations like the current EU budget catfight or worse.

So how do we get there?

PS: And how the Hell did we get so far down this matter? We were talking corporate taxes to start with, weren't we?
by Francois in Paris on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 06:20:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)
And yet, if we want a democracy in Europe, we have to build a European national identity. Otherwise, we'll remain stuck in situations like the current EU budget catfight or worse.

So how do we get there?

PS: And how the Hell did we get so far down this matter? We were talking corporate taxes to start with, weren't we?

The issue is, how can nations stand up to corporations in a globalized (or regionally integrated) economy? Herman Daly advocates steering away from globalization into internationalism (with a focus on a return to national economic policy) as a way to foster a sustainable economy. The economic issues within the EU can be reframed (as you have done) in political terms thus: the EU can be a force for economic good (within the EU, never mind globally) only if a European national identity develops. Otherwise it may well be a damaging development.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 07:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re:What exactly is so ideal about the nation state (none / 0)
Yes, and absent that, EU institutions should thread very lightly on sovereign domains like taxation. The ECJ may be right in law but it is also completely tone-deaf on that case and is playing against its own legitimacy.

It clearly hasn't heard of the Constitution referendums, has no realisation of what most Europeans think of private corporations (that they are barely tolerated nuisances) and it also clearly hasn't understood, that being the final jurisdiction, its decisions are highly political, a bit like the Supreme Court is in the US.

If it had any political sense, the ECJ should have told M&S to move along.
by Francois in Paris on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 08:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ECJ authorises tax race to the bottom | 52 comments (52 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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