SERE training and torture | 26 comments (26 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: SERE training and torture (none / 0)

to drive a wedge between the victim and the other detainees. For propaganga purposes. Not necesarrily for the public but rather for for the relationships regarding the victim and other detainees.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 02:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SERE training and torture (none / 0)

Ok, I understand this reasoning in the pure local sense. Turning them against their fellow detainees is important to the prison commandant. But surely this is not the reasoning that leads to policy changes at the top level?

So then we think of propaganda, as in the Vietnam situation. However, I don't see it used in this case. I'll admit I only pass over the Arab media in a cursory manner (who can read everything?) but I haven't seen much of the propaganda that would come out of a "recanting" by a high-level operative.

So, I am still struggling to understand the rationale.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SERE training and torture (none / 1)

It's all about "breaking the enemy's will to fight" (as if torturing people did not encourage them --- or their family and friends --- to fight you) and a misreading of The Arab Mind, a book by a fellow called Raphael Patai.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SERE training and torture (none / 1)

You mean as when the interrogator comes into the cell and says "you know, you'd better tell us what you know because so-and-so already told us all we wanted to know about you"?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:34:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To Metanone and Migeru (none / 0)

Yes, exactly! The tactical infomation is obselete after 24 - 48 hours, all interrogators know this. So the object is exploitation, which is an insiduous path to turning one detainee against another. That is the object of torture, not to get vital information but to expoit and indoctrinate.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Metanone and Migeru (none / 0)

But rationally, what is the value in this indoctrination of a small number who you have already captured? Especially in the case of a group like Al-Qaeda who are not a unified structure in the first place?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Metanone and Migeru (none / 0)

because the small number who are captured reside with others in the small number who are captured. Just like Vietnam POWs were small in number yet were important not for the public but for exploitation of the other POWs.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 03:58:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Metanone and Migeru (none / 0)

I know I must seem dense to not be getting this, but you seem willing to put up with my stupid questions, so:

(I still don't get it.)

Even if you can take every Al-Qaeda member you catch to Gitmo and indoctrinate them, every one of them through torture, what is the strategic value of this?

(Ignore for a moment the value lost to America's moral standing, just think for a moment of the extraordinary use of intelligent and creative men required to break these prisoners.)

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:06:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Metanone (none / 1)

Hi Metanone,
It's really not a stupid question. Remember, we're dealing with the Bush administration. They are thinking that they have the upperhand from 30 years ago. So your not understanding is quite normal for logical, thinking persons. But they think in the cold-war mindset and in today's world, that is obsolete as witnessed by your question. You are a logical thinking person, they are not, so it is hard to ask real questions.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:27:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Metanone (none / 1)

They are thinking that they have the upperhand from 30 years ago.

And in their world, Charlie has been pushed back all the way to Outer Mongolia...

by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Metanone (none / 1)

30 years ago the neocons were sharpening their teeth with an "experiment in competitive threat assessment" called "Team B". They have both feet squarely in fantasy world ever since.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 05:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

SERE training and torture | 26 comments (26 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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