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was truly shocking.

But I thought part of this gambit had great value, the part where he says, "You want Israel to exist, why not create it in Europe?"

I think he's saying, "Why did you Europeans figure you had the right to carve up Arab lands, and give them away to whoever you choose? Why didn't you carve up your own land?"

Now -- it's not very practical considering that -- unless I'm off in understanding things --the Jewish state really wants to possess certain holy sites for their religion, and those sites are on formerly Arab territory (Palestine, to be specific).

I think the problem arises that the state of Israel, as presented, again, if I get the issues correctly, does NOT want to share these holy sites with persons of other religions who also revere the same sites.

There's not a compassion or generalization, "If we want access to these holy sites, and others do too, why, we're the same, so let's not deprive anyone else in the same way we'd not want to be deprived."

I spent 2-3 years reading Israeli papers in English, and really in a ton of pain about the situation there. Yeah, atrocities. Stealing land, uprooting entire producing orchards of trees, buying land and holding it for one race/religion, away from another race/religion.  Helicopters gunning down people in cities. Stuff like that. Little details of daily governance.

Now, I don't care what the names of the religions involved are. Could be any of hte world's ethnic groups, or major religions oppressing another group in the name of (fill in blank) [g-d] [God] [Allah] [the purity of my race] [more water for me] [more gold for my people] [kicking the crap outta you so we feel better] [you guys look wierd] [you guys eat differently] .

I'm just saying it tears my heart out, and it offends my sense of fairness, and hopes for justice for all mankind, to read raw news stories about the treatment by the power-up group in Israel, of the power-down group.

I will say this, it looks like insanity to me, from my distance in the USA. Would you want to live there as one of the power-down group? In your ghetto? Watching your great-grandfather's orchards ripped up? Watching your house torn down? Kids can't go to school? Have you read the reports of the Refusniks who detail what happened in the Territories when they served there?

Would you want Israel's behaviors towards their power-down group in a neighbor country? What about that treatment is not insane?

I'm not saying this Iranian isn't a nut-case, but I will say this.

First: EVERY time anyone in the USA says anything vaguely disapproving of Israel, or hinting that their treatment of their power-down group might be nutty, wrong, or worse, we  presume we're going to be jumped on by one and all. So I presume I'll be jumped on. Fine. Go for it. It's already said above.

Second: In each of his paragraphs above, I find information to ponder, not to dismiss out of hand.

First graf:
Personally, I believe the numbers quoted for the killing of Jews and others by Hitler are accurate, so I  only learn from his first graf. Huh -- he really believes that? Wow.

Second graf:
Well, at least he's willing to consider that he's wrong. A point for him. Now he asks, roughly, "Is Europe's guilt over Hitler's treatment of Jews that which causes them to turn a blind eye to what Israel does in the name of their state to relatively helpless millions now?"

What's invalid about that question? If it were Hutus and Tsutsis (spelling probably wrong), would we answer in the same way -- as if it's Israel and their power-down millions? Would we? Would you?

If not -- why not?

Do you have a pretty 3D picture of what life for the average Palestinian living in the Terrotories is like? And how that's changed in the last decade? And in the last 30-50 years? What privileges they have and don't have? Compared to the privileges a mile or 500 feet away?

If you do, do you think that is a sane situation?

Third graf:
If Europeans wanted Jews to have a separate state, why not give them land in Europe? Africa? Asia? United States? (Which turned away at least one entire boatload of Jews in the midst of WWII, because of prejudice, not wanting them to land on USA soil.)

I think he has a darned good question --WHY didn't any of these other continents open up territory for a Jewish state? Prejudice? Selfishness? Any chance they regarded the Arabs as sub-human, so why not just carve up their territory to suit the Westerners' ideas du jour?

Why Arab lands?

Fourth graf:
Why DO the Anglo races run about imposing their wills on other countries? Sure seems to be quite a bit of it going around today.

I mean, Iran is in the meatgrinder with the US rattling sabers, microphones, and who knows what all else -- to the end of invading Iran, to the end of bending it to the USA's will, and likely stealing its resources.

Not to mention, Israel is threatening to drop a nuclear bomb on Iran, and the USA likewise... Nuclear bombs are a gift that keeps on taking for thousands of years. And the USA is camped out on one of Iran's borders.

Is there even the remotest reason for this guy to have said what he did?

by AllisonInSeattle on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:46:21 AM EST

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