Srebrenica - 10 Years Later | 20 comments (20 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (4.00 / 2)

Soj, your artickle is a massive tour de force containing a wealth of, to me, new information which leads me to rethink what I thought I knew about the story.

This, however, I find hard to swallow:

'You know, I was offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska and Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik [VRS] forces enter Srebrenica, carry out a slaughter of 5,000 Muslims, and then there will be a military intervention.' ...our delegation was composed of nine people, one among us was from Bratunac and unfortunately he is the only one not alive now, but all the others from the delegation are alive and can confirm this."

Now, William Clinton is a cynical man. But the alleged Srebrenica contradicts his refusal of Chirac's known suggestion, made by phone after the conquest of the 'safe zone,' of a joint reconquest using French storm infantry and US air support.

It's also far-fetched that Clinton would cite a figure of 5000 to be massacred. That's just not the way such things are handled. To me, this throws serious doubt on the testimony and thus on the entire conspiracy theory, not enormously plausible at the outset, of Srebrenica being sacrificed as part of a gambit.

By the way, in the media reports I've seen, the Scorpions are said to be a Serbian unit, which is why the execution video is being belatedly marshalled as evidence against Milosevic at the Hague tribunal. For instance: news.bbc.co.uk :

The killers are wearing the uniforms of a unit known as the Scorpions, which prosecutors say fell under the command of the Serbian interior ministry.

Are you positive that this is factually wrong?

Again, tremendous article. As so often, I'm amazed at your range of knowledge.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 01:21:55 PM EST

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (4.00 / 2)

I agree with your assessment of Clinton's personal words.. I do know however that Bosnia was Madeleine Albright's baby and so whatever occurred has her stamp on it.

I quoted the commander simply because that's what HE said.

As for the Scorpions, as I said they were a Krajina Croat unit at the time of Srebrenica (July 1995). After Operation Storm and the cleansing of all Serbs from Krajina, they later were folded into the Serb command structure.

Specifically, the Scorpions later worked under the auspices of the MUP, which is the Interior Ministry. But this was in 1999... in July 1995 they were part of the Republika Srpska Krajina.

From here:

While Milosevic does not dispute that crimes are committed on the tape, he argues that there is no evidence linking the killings - which took place outside the town of Trnovo - to Srebrenica, which lies some 150 kilometres away. He also argues that the Scorpions unit pictured in the tape had no links to any official Serbian military structures at the time of the massacre.
Milosevic told the court that the Scorpions unit had been set up in the early Nineties to provide security for the oil industry in the then Republic of Serb Krajina, the Serb-held entity in Croatia. This appeared to be an apparent attempt to distance himself from their subsequent actions in Bosnia.
During his re-examination by the defendant, General Obrad Stevanovic - the former assistant interior minister whose testimony has lasted a record five weeks at The Hague - told the court that the Scorpions unit had come under the command of the Belgrade authorities, in a "reserve capacity", but only long after the end of the war in Bosnia.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks Soj! (none / 0)

.
For excellent coverage of a political disgrace for Europe and the United Nations, not capable to prevent or limit the horror of the Balkan War, brother vs. brother, neighbor vs. neighbor, the ethnic cleansing, spread of terror, concentration camps, rape, murder and executions.

The cause IMO was the ethnic differences and the revenge from divisiveness and genocide in World War II.

The agreements and treaties were not worth the paper it was written on, as example the flow of arms to the Bosnian forces - the Croatian pipeline. This permitted the establishment of a Saudi funded Islamic cell on the Balkans which turned later into an Al Qaeda cell which is still not eradicated.

Washington -- U.S. Ambassador to Germany Charles Redman and U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith testified May 30, 1996 before the House International Relations Committee regarding 1994 Iranian arms shipments to Bosnian government military forces. At the time of these shipments, the Bosnians were in danger of being overwhelmed by Serbian forces armed with tanks and other heavy weapons the Bosnians could not counter.

Ambassador Galbraith said he knew Croatian authorities would interpret his statement that he had no instructions regarding the transshipment of arms from Iran and other countries through Croatia to beleaguered Bosnian forces as meaning that the United States would not object to the move.

Both ambassadors noted at that time that Iran had already been supplying arms to the Bosnians since 1992.

Ambassador Redman said: "In retrospect, I believe that the decision not to oppose the Croatian initiative was crucial to all that followed in the Balkans." He said that after the Serbs overran Gorazde, "the Bosnian government was in dire straits." He contended that if the United States had blocked the Iranian arms supply initiative, "it very likely would have doomed the (Croat-Muslim) Federation and exacerbated an already desperate military situation for the Bosnians.

"Instead," he said, "the Bosnian armed forces held on and began to counterattack. The Federation survived, UNPROFOR remained in place, helping the Bosnians through another difficult winter, and we bought time for a combination of American diplomacy, NATO air power and Croatian and Bosnian military victories, to reach an historic peace agreement in Dayton."

That's right, at the time there was an UN arms embargo for all of former Yugoslavia. The US signed on to the deal for Iranian arms, funded by Saudi Arabia and delivered by plane through logistic support from NATO partner Turkey.

PS Has Bobby Fisher been apprehended for playing the game of chess during the US economic embargo?

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:01:59 PM EST

Re: Thanks Soj! (none / 1)

As you most astutely referred to Oui, there is a larger context of the Bosnia/Croatia wars of independence, involving NATO, the United States and its allies.

I did not delve into that too much simply because I restricted myself to Srebrenica.

Both the 92-95 civil wars as well as the 99 Kosovo war does merit a lot more discussions, especially on this website, as it is an extremely important issue for Europe.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (none / 1)

Thank you for doing so much work and sharing it here.

I have just begun to try to become more informed about Southeastern Europe. My grandmother left Hungary in 1913 and returned home for a visit after the Great War, but by then her family's home (near Timisoara) was in Romania.

I'm beginning to think that understanding the ghostly clashes of so many once mighty empires and the historical enmities of so many rival ethnicities is a life-long project.

Again, thank you.

by marylrgn on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:32:10 PM EST

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (none / 1)

Timişoara is a beautiful city... can I ask where your grandmother is from exactly?

As for the clash of once-mighty empires, there is quite a lot of that in Europe. Srebrenica however happened just ten years ago, and I think it merits an open discussion.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 02:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (none / 1)

She was from a place called Kistelep, Hungary, according to the ship's manifest records at Ellis Island -- I think it was a very small place. I never paid much attention growing up, and now it's too late to ask her directly. I know they were ethnic Germans and she spoke German, Hungarian, Romanian and English. My grandfather left Kisbecskerek, Hungary, in 1908 at the age of 10. I now know that the Romanian name of the town is Becichercu Mic.

Certainly Srebrenica merits an open discussion, and I very much appreciate your posting such a detailed account. I am terribly ignorant regarding any European events, recent or otherwise, but I am determined to begin to learn. European Tribune looks like a good place to continue my education.

Thanks again.

by marylrgn on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 06:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (none / 1)

Soj, I realize that my next question may open this up beyond the scope of the diary, but you wrote that 260,000 have died. The ICTY is working with a much smaller number. I'm wondering if you know about this and whether you have reason to believe the larger number is more trustworthy?

Are you aware of the Reuters report this December in which a Bosnian Muslim investigator, Mirsad Tokea, who headed a Human Rights forensic and research team out of Norway, has said that the true number is closer to 80,000?

Furthermore, the ICTY is now working with a figure of about 100,000.

Bosnian Death Toll

The numbers as broken down by this blogger Gray Falcon (ominous name) show from the report that 102,000 died, "55,261 civilians and 47,360 soldiers were killed, including Bosnian Muslims, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats. The researchers estimate the number of killed civilian Muslims and Croats to be around 38,000, while the number of killed civilian Serbians was about 16,700. Among military personnel, the researchers think close to 28,000 people were killed in the government army, mostly Bosnian Muslims. On the Serbian side, 14,000 soldiers were killed, while a bit over 6,000 Bosnian Croatian soldiers lost their lives because of actions of war."

The way they figure these totals is odd. Croats and Muslims are lumped together. Only the Serbs are separated out. Also, it's very hard to distinguish military dead from civilian dead among all the ethnicities. I find these classifications odd for two reasons. One, the Croats and Muslims were engaged in heavy fighting in the town of Mostar for a long period of time. In fact, Croatian leader Tudjman once proposed to Milosevic a common strategy to split Bosnia. Secondly, there was a large Bosnian Muslim army in Western Bosnia which was affiliated with the Serbs. This was the army led by Fikret Abdic, a muslim. They were said to have committed some of the most heinous crimes against Muslims.

So, really, it's impossible to know how many of the 38,000 civilains who died of the Muslim/Croat total were actually Muslim (I'll assume the great majority). But then it's also difficult to know how many were killed by Abdic and troops, or how many civilians loyal to Abdic were killed.

Why is all this important? To establish culpability for war crimes. I'm not a huge fan of the ICTY but I absolutely believe in these tribunals as an effective way to stop war crimes. Someone needs to wade through the gruesome evidence to the truth.

Finally, I'll note that some researchers still on the ground in Bosnia believe they can establish between 100,000 and 150,000 deaths, as shown in the article. Again, these numbers are relevant because the difference between 30,000 civilians killed and the 260,000 often quoted in the press, is the difference between a brutal insurgency, a policy of war crimes, a scourge of ethnic cleansing, and finally a genocide. With 260,000 dying, the numbers are genocidal. As they decrease, that term becomes less applicable. That's not to say that war criminals do not have genocidal aims. I'm talking about the context within which military operations take place.

by Upstate NY on Sat Jul 2nd, 2005 at 09:12:52 PM EST

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (4.00 / 7)

I hesitated to write about recent Balkan's CIVIL wars for too many reasons. One of them would be because I wouldn't know where to start exactly trying to explain roots of these wars because it goes deeply back in to the history and the other good reason is because of my truly limited English language abilities. But now I just have to give it a go no matter what. I just saw this topic and didn't want to read it before I write my story because I didn't want to be influenced with your text Soy. I`ll read and respond to it later.
I am not historian or scientist of any kind , just a simple person and this is what comes from my point of you...I don't pretend that I know much tho in a scientific sense...but then again I used to live there.
When I was a kid being raised in communist's state of ex- YU I wasn't that much interested in history. First because I had terrible my first history teacher and most important of all reasons was the one that I had feeling (and I was told by my parents so) that they are feeding us bunch of lies in this field ...especially about WWII and "revolution" after it.
Ex YU has ALWAYS been tensioned with national issues (6 republics , two autonomous territories , and actually kind of 3-4 real nations and numerous minorities from all around neighboring countries) and honestly it was just holding together because of a "strong hand" (dictatorship) prior to WWII (Serbian monarchy) but specially after the WWII (Tito's "monarchy"). A special animosity stood in between Serbs and Croats. Serbs being the biggest and strongest nation and Croats having their thousand years old lost dream to have their own state which they haven't been able to accomplish until recently with a help of Europe (and Germans at the first place). As Serbs and Croats speak the same language (like say Irish and English people) and share identical names and surnames they obviously come from the same root but for some reason these two tribes hated each other through history. The biggest reason there may be because of them being of different religion I suppose. By split of the Roman Empire it happened that line between Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches has been made right between their territories. The other dangerous animosity took place far back in history between Serbs and so called Muslims. It's pretty hard to acknowledge that there is a nation called Muslims and that this nation does not speak any other language but Serbian (or Croatian if you will ...or Serbo-Croatian as we used to call it during Tito's governments). So we Serbs believe that Bosnian Muslims are actually Serbs that converted to Islam during 500 years long occupation of Bosnia by Ottomans. Maybe some of them are Croats too but we believe they are mostly Serbs and...of course this conversion to another religion hasn't been seen as a good thing at all...Animosity was there just under the surface even through long Tito's regime... and all the propaganda of " brotherhood and unity" had no chance to change it in million years. Well all those sorts of animosities one would say could be resolved without bloodshed but it wasn't possible because of the events during WWII.
As we all know after Serbian monarchy capitulated to Germans and fled to England and country has been found it self in disarray Croatians saw this as a chance to finally have their "independent" state. So they cheerfully joined Hitler and that gave them NDH -illusion of the state independent ...but just from Serbs, of course. This was a great chance for them to finally ethnically cleanse their new state from Serbs that used to live there as long as they lived. Terrible crimes against Serbian population in Croatia have been committed by Ustashi- their "elite". The third largest concentration camp of the World War II Nazi occupied Europe was founded by infamous Ustashi. Its name was:

JASENOVAC
SOME SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE MURDERED AT JASENOVAC, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies,

More of the view from Serbian point here:
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/jasenovac.html

But you can also find others here:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Jasenovac+WWII&sourceid=mozilla-search

This was a biggest crime but they have done it routinely...whole families have been slaughtered...intentionally...down to the baby in a cot...And Bosnian Muslims joined them and gave them a "helping hand" with a knife in it...It wasn't that much of the surprise for them to be pro - Germanic having in mind that both Croatia and Bosnia used to be Austro-Hungarian "colonies" while Serbia managed to become kind of independent after Ottomans have left.
Neither had we forgiven nor forgotten it for 50 years of peace...So when Croatians expressed their will to separate from ex-YU again, this was a biggest case on Milosevic's side...are we going to just let them slaughter our brothers in Croatia AGAIN? No matter how "unpatriotic" one could be in Serbia he had to shut up. As others I knew too that Serbs in Croatia (and Bosnia) are in danger and that something needs to be done I just couldn't see how civil war is going to help them and thought that real -estate adds would be more helpful for people to relocate...and some kind of agreement about land should take place between governments. Gosh I didn't like having to deal whit Milosevic and his "Bolsheviks" while Croatians and others were about to join Europe (all tho mostly Germans, haha). But I thought it's a bad luck and we Serbs have to deal with it inside our shity destiny...Anything but CIVIL war would play for me, but hey who am I and who's listening to simple people like me. About probably half of Serbian population shared my view or something similar and was anti - war. It was obvious where Milosevic is leading us and we tried to stop him and a hatred his TV was spreading in a lead to wars. We had huge demonstrations and he sent his police and even Army on us. There was nothing that we could do to stop war machine...Field has been laid for war and when you put so much of the weaponry in people's hands it's practically unstoppable. The only one's who could stop it were Americans and Europeans and bunch of futile "negotiations" took place but for Serbs and Milosevic there was only stick but not carrot in it.
The decision has been made actually long before and all those "negotiations" actually was a show of power and threatening and blackmailing from the powerful West.
Now I hate Milosevic for putting us in to situation like this but I can sympathize how terrific these "negotiations" were. I hated him even more for rejecting one (for us) awful plan only to agree to even worse one when hard-pressed enough...
Let me tell you about crimes...War started and we were filled with TV propaganda and pictures that I and a good portion of population rejected to believe in. Much worse of the visual TV news was rumor about atrocities...done by our side. One wouldn't know if that too is a part of propaganda ("look who we have on our side and yes we can turn them against you too") to shut-up opposition...And yes we were opposed to Milosevic and war but to even acknowledge that so horrific things have been done in our names ...it's so bloody hard. I managed to make my self believe that all tho the war completely is unacceptable and horrific as such those specific incidents that we are hearing of must not be largely spread...I suppose it was easier to live with it. And there was always another say "It happens on all sides" that have effect of some kind of "anesthesia" too. "Yes they are doing the same to our guys" like it's making it less wrong for our guys to do it. To make a long story short I refused to believe and acknowledge the scale of the crimes. And so many Serbs still do. Cause it's painful...
And then Srebrenica came. I was already living in southern hemisphere and not that much in to the war that seemed never to stop and I lost my fate it will end any time soon all tho it seemed to be under some kind of "control"...not that intensive any more cause all the sides being "on their own space" and fortified...
I couldn't and till this day I can't understand WHY it happened. There is no logical reason for the event and this makes me even madder about it. I always deeply hated Mladic no matter how capable in a military sense man be and never ever had any respect for Karadzic no matter how good his intentions have been originally. All tho I understood that Serbs in Bosnia had to be organized in a midst of such a huge change as dismantling of ex YU (the country where all Serbs used to live in one state) was. But unfortunately they were no lucky to find right leaders to lead them through these dark times in their history. The only way I can even start to understand why that happened in Srebrenica would be that because it was obviously the end of the war "game" as we know it , Mladic has been told of what ever Milosevic is about to sign in Dayton (or where ever). And because it was the end of his "Napoleonian carrier" and because it was the end of his dream and dream of Bosnian Serbs that they can join Serbia with a large portion of Bosnia and a small portion of Croatia ...the only thing I can think of is massive REVENGE ... madness and show of sick power on the helpless population of Srebrenica.
I feel terribly sorry for all those people that had to pay with their lives in Srebrenica...no matter how many of them. I do not understand some Serbs trying to find some comfort in a fact that maybe, just maybe the number of victims is exaggerated (say not 8000 but 2000-3000). This is grouse and I don't find it easier to bare this crime on my shoulders at all. It's done in a name of freedom of my people and it's so bloody wrong...
I am not trying to find any excuses for what happened I just wanted to explain that hatred has bloody deep roots and what's done in recent Balkans wars is just going to nurture it farther...unfortunately... and Balkan will swim in a blood...again...
I am sorry if this is too long and I don't have a time to review it and am not sure that I made my point for you...anyway...I tried...
-------------------
Now I'll go read your text...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 02:10:34 AM EST

Thanks vbo (4.00 / 3)

for the "inside" perspective, which shows the utter senselessness of this conflict. Like you, I don't really see what difference it makes if it was 3000 or 8000 dead in that instance; in either case it's still the single biggest massacre since WWII, even if i imagine that there have been a few other battles in the country that may come close.

Maybe the only good thing that came out of it is that it finally shamed the West into action, and into actually acting for peace. While the situation on the ground cannot be described as great in any way, at least there is no longer war, which, for the civilian populations, is the most important thing.

The Yugoslav wars have been an unmitigated disaster for all (well, first and foremost for the populations caught in it), and showed the worst from politicians of all kinds - Milosevic shamefully flaming Serbian nationalism to hold to power while the communist system was falling apart, Croatia rushing for independence and blaming Belgrade for the same situation, Germany redescovering its existence on the world diplomatic stage after reunification by foolishsly taking sides (the same as the nazis!) in that conflict by recognizing Croatia, France, instead of reasoning Germany, falling into age old patterns and supporting the other side, fighting reunification by proxy, and all other outsiders acting with various degrees of cowardice and cynicism.

We should all be ashamed of what our countries did, (or didn't do), feel lucky that we were not in the cross fire, and keep in mind that the forces of narrow nationalism are amways easy to manipulate and unleash, but hard to control afterwards, and remember what the consequences will be for us.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 02:57:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks vbo (none / 1)

This is precisely my view of the war. First of all, you have to look at the brew, the origins of it, and that brew is a diplomatic one. When we champion the cause of self-determination, we also have to have a clear plan which allows it to come to fruition peacefully, especially when there is no violence or even discrimination taking place (Kosovo was the only province in which serious discrimination and violence was a problem before 1991). We can't simply stand on principle when that principle of self-determination conflicts with other moral principles (esp. the rights of minorities).

One minor disagreement with you Jerome is that I feel the West was not simply blind or stupid in its early recognition of the breakaway states but that the West was also very willful. Have a look at the Vance-Owen plan (which actually looks very much like Dayton as well). (VBO, also, you should know that some statesmen and diplomats did have a way out of the senselessness, but the path to peace was lost along the way when politicians and diplomats held to ill-thought out principles.)

Here are some letters to American Senators blasting the Vance-Owen plan:

A moral rejection of Vance-Owen

Here's an article in French which explains the critiques of the Vance-Owen plan:

Vance-Owen pitfalls

Finally, here's an article in the NYT Review of Books that's most telling about the Vance-Owen plan and its detractors:

The Fall of Vance-Owen

The essential qualm against Vance-Owen was that it rewarded Serbian aggression in 1991-1992. We have to remember that Milosevic actually agreed to Vance-Owen, and that it was scuppered by the West (both James Baker and Warren Christopher hated it). I would argue that Vance-Owen was a better plan for Bosnia than Dayton was. Basically, Dayton allowed for partition (I still say it will happen eventually). Vance-Owen cantonised Bosnia, which in its very definition meant that the rights of minorities would be protected in their own cantons, and that they would not be subservient to a powerful state. It was a federalist solution. 3 years after Vance-Owen, after a great many deaths, this vision of a Federalist Bosnia had been laid to waste.

Essentially, the moral detractions against Vance-Owen (that it rewards violence) cannot themselves withstand a moral critique. If you apply a moral principle without taking into account the political context, well then you are not very moral at all. The political context was this: the federations within Yugoslavia were being recognized by the West without any explicit legalized regard for the rights of minorities within those federations. The West was powerless to prevent highly discriminatory laws passed against minorities within the very first days of the Croat Republic. So, to take a moral stand on principle a year or so later was highly convenient for the West when it had already ignored a set of moral principles which were the real triggers to the Balkan Wars.

My main problem is that I don't believe the West was ignorant. I believe their disregard was willful. As for Clinton, even Holbrooke rues the fact that Clinton was under the spell of American Neo-Conservative thinking regarding the Balkans. The Neo-Cons saw the conflagration as inevitable. In other words, it was going to happen anyway, and thus the US had to choose sides regardless.

Any discussion of the ex-Yugo which doesn't account for the failure of diplomacy in 1991 is bankrupt, IMO.

by Upstate NY on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 11:49:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Western diplomacy (none / 1)

Yes, German and French diplomacy at the turn of the decade was really pathetic, and worse, criminal as it incited the worst behaviors by nationalists in FYU. That's why I wrote about a little war by proxy for the two countries, before saner head prevailed, France accepted reunification and Germany understood that it still had to be responsible, even when unshackled by post WWII - especially when unshackled... Yugos paid the price of that lesson.

Then everybody was to cowardly to intervene forcefully. (That's actually one of the few things that I hold to Chirac's credit - he got things moving again in 1995, finally)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 12:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Western diplomacy (none / 1)

Any discussion of the ex-Yugo which doesn't account for the failure of diplomacy in 1991 is bankrupt, IMO.
*
You are so right...

Quote:
Then everybody was to cowardly to intervene forcefully. (That's actually one of the few things that I hold to Chirac's credit - he got things moving again in 1995, finally)
*
Diplomacy had to take place in late 80-es. Or even in early 80-ies when Tito died all tho it wasn't possible to be really "creative" in diplomacy , prior to a fall of USSR, I admit...
In 90-es it was too late...and all those shows (negotiations) were just that ...SHOWS...and nothing more. It was pretty hard to support Milosevic (I know I couldn't) but I really expected France (especially) to make them take in consideration some of Serbian interests cause there was no one out there to do it. At least we felt France used to be a friend of Serbia in not that distant past ( WWI etc.).But...obviously France was busy looking after it's own interest and Milosevic was a pretty good excuse for doing so. I don't know much of the diplomacy but I suspect that for diplomatic solution to be successful it needs to take in to the consideration interests of all sides involved in a conflict...In the end it was easier to bombard Serbia...But things are not solved this way and they will surface again you can bet...it's in their nature...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 01:19:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks vbo! (4.00 / 3)

.
For giving us your very moving tale from inside ex-Yugoslavia. You caught the right emotion how I felt about this ugly civil war, the worst of all wars: brother against brother. See also the US Civil War.

Sitting in the West with all the comforts, it's so easy to judge and make assumptions. Till now, I have only heard the hard-line Serbs tell their version with little compassion for their enemy.

I do hope that as the economic sanctions are lifted, Serbia & Montenegro can rebuild their country and move forward to a better furure.

Building Bridges Between People

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 03:06:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (none / 1)

Soy I've read your article very carefully and thank you for taking that much time and energy to put it all together. It's all informative and interesting. I have heard about most of the things you write about all tho put in some kind of order like in your article they make much more sense. There are definitely so many bloody confusing and fishy things about events that took place prior and during and even after these wars and I have never had doubts that we Serbs are definitely NOT to simply be blamed and singled out for what happened. But ...as they say "winners (conquerors) are to write history" and we Serbs definitely are losers here for the time being. I am scared for the destiny of my people in the midst of the mess that still is laying under the surface in the Balkan cause we definitely have no friends around and we are very convenient as "usual suspects" ...
I have visited Serbia this winter and my heart is still bleeding...I promised to write about current situation in Serbia but just can't make my self do it yet...cause it hurts...the level of desperation of my people...
Today news :
BLASTS ROCK KOSOVO
3.7.2005. 11:11:15

Three bombs have exploded in Pristina, the capital of Serbia's UN-administered province of Kosovo, but police said there were no casualties.

Bombs went off outside the UN headquarters, the parliament building and close to office of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

A UN vehicle parked outside the UN mission was destroyed by a fire and two others were damaged.

There has been no claim of responsibility for the blasts.

UN mission spokesman Remi Dourlot said it was too soon to say whether the explosions were part of a plot to attack international agencies in the Serbian province.
*
Who do you think would do this in Pristina where there is no practically living Serb to be found? I wouldn't be surprised if this would be blamed on us too all tho there is no any interest in this for us that I can think of...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 09:04:44 AM EST

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (none / 1)

Oui , yes I loved that bridge in Mostar...we used to visit it every time when we went on holiday to the Adriatic Coast...They've made a new bridge..."older then previous one", haha (this was a sick joke at the time when we protested bombardment of old city of Dubrovnik and someone said "we'll make a new one, older then previous one").As far as people tell me about Mostar there will be much more "water to pass under that new bridge" until bridges between people are to be built again...even Muslims and Croats in this case...When I saw distraction of this bridge it reminded me in a way of distraction of those two Budas by Taliban in Afghanistan... Savages...I do value human life at the first place but those who are able to destroy historical monuments are nothing short of savages in my eyes...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 09:22:49 AM EST

Regain self-esteem ... (none / 0)

I am scared for the destiny of my people in the midst of the mess that still is laying under the surface in the Balkan cause we definitely have no friends around ...

S&M needs leadership to renew political ties to the Western European nations, not just the Eastern friends who supported the Serbs throughout the Balkan civil war. The future lies in adapting foreign policy and reforming domestic economic and industrial planning, to the reality of the 21st century. Perhaps the Serbs do need to break away from past prejudice and follow a glasnost attitude, how difficult it may be to bite the bullet.

Strength of a nation is based on the hope and character of its people, not the present administration that more often follows a policy for short-term political gain.

Don't believe for one minute that the European populace was united in one voice of support during the NATO bombardments of Serb civilian and industrial targets.

Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic

PS I do hope Vuk Karadzic was a uniter, that was my intention anyway!

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 02:23:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Regain self-esteem ... (none / 1)

Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic was one of the great Serbs...he created modern Serbian alphabet and made broad literacy possible amongst Serbs...and much more. We had quite a few great individuals like Nikola Tesla (who was a Serb just born in Croatia)...even today you'll find many Serbian scientists involved in incredible innovations as well as first class sportsmen etc. Yes individually we are great people if I can say something like that not to look too pretentious but collectively we are in a very dark place right now...it's much worse then even during Milosevic and all those wars. At that time half of our nation believed in wars "for larger Serbia and our unity with Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia) and another half believed in democracy and it's ways to solve our problems. Today no one believes in anything at all.

Quote:
Strength of a nation is based on the hope and character of its people,

*
Serbs do have a special character I can tell you but they lost their hope...they don't believe in democracy any more (like many others in Eastern Europe nowadays) and they are not able to see "light in the end of this tunnel"...One thing that made them survive even 500 years of Ottoman Empire occupation is stubbornness. Sometimes ( like in recent events) it cost them greatly but other times it's a force for survival...They have seen many Empires come and go...Then again they had their faith then but now they haven't been able to find it again after 50 years of communism. And there is nothing else available to strengthen their collective moral.
I'd like to believe that they will find their way out from this tunnel ...but they'll need helping hand which I don't know where could come from...I steal believe that EU is the natural way to head even tho EU is rapidly falling apart even before it started it's real life...Not sure if EU (in this form) is going to exist until Serbia comes to consideration for it's membership (I was about to write hahaha but it's not funny at all) .I just wouldn't like to see my people all alone in this "windy" place of historical momentum...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 12:55:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Srebrenica - 10 Years Later (none / 0)

What should we think of this NYT story?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/04/news/hague.php

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 5th, 2005 at 03:57:01 AM EST

What should we think? (none / 0)

That the writer goes to bed tonight with a clear conscience, knowing that she's done nothing to contribute to the defense of Serbian war criminals or to make it easier for sadists to justify war crimes in the future.

by Matt in NYC on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 05:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Srebrenica - 10 Years Later | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

Speaking right: What an Taoiseach should say in Washington

Ambushing an Taoiseach

The problems with formal education

Net Zero Energy - March 2025

We do have the cards

Manipulating Irishness

Thomas Paine's Age of Reason

An Enchanted Isle

Recent Diaries

Ceasefire Negotiations Step by Step

17th of March

Ukraine Violated Human Rights in Odessa - 2014

Rutte In the Apprentice Theatre

Rearming Europe Peace Through More War

Keith Kellogg Is Out

Nordic States Join Baltics Again WWII Redux

Goodbye NATO/USA, Welcome Europe's E5

Zelensky and the Terror State Ukraine

EU Commissioner VDL In Full Panic Mode

The problems with formal education

The Battle for Kiev/Kyiv

VDL At the Crossroads of Europe - Part 1

The speech Micheál Martin should make in the White House:...

Either At the Table, Or Else On the Menu

A Happy AQ Warrior On Syrian Victory

Trump More Destructive Than Genocide Joe?

Terror HTS FF In Latakia, Syria

Speaking right: What an Taoiseach should say in Washington

Net Zero Energy - March 2025

Occasional Series