You know, I used to take that view, but during the Iraq issue and later, I was surprised to learn that there are a lot of young people who do think like me, or like Western counterparts. They are completely detached from the present political mainstream, kind of a subculture, except many are isolated from each other (like me - I talk much more politics on-line than in person) - but just because of this growing detachment from mainstream politics, this group is growing. I referred to some grass-roots organising, in the civilian 'sector'. For example, there is now a small movement against estate speculants who'd let old houses be run down and pulled down, to build an ugly new something that's either not really needed, is for rich people, or doesn't fit in the area.

Yes, the parties would like to have everything under their hands. One trick of the Fidesz leadership was to kick-start the formation of civilian groups, which were steered from above, and used for the takeover of the faithful in local party cells. The largest 15 february 2003 protest in Central-Eastern Europe was in Budapest, with about 50,000, but ended in scandal due to a large far-right contingent who ignored calls for leaving party politics outside. However, these people I spoke of live and newly organise in this environment, and their 'detachment' means they are by now immune to the parties.

_{*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

Can you name any names? Maybe I could tell what became of them. (Not all of the original team went along all the way with Orbán, I must note.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.}