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A New Orleans police officer holds a shot gun as he tries to keep people away from a drug store in a flooded area of downtown New Orleans. Numerous other nearby stores, were previously looted. AP Photo/Eric Gay

Martial law proclaimed in the city of New Orleans, Bush back in the WH, expect soon a speech from him saying we will be tough, even in these trying circumstances. Will our Commander-In-Chief order looters to be shot, don't want to see property of business and companies stolen, when the local law enforcement and NG units are saving lives.

George will restore order in a state where chaos is wrought by the disaster Katrina. No one talks about the unpreparedness of the Gulf coast states, and the funds taken away because of the Iraq adventure.

New Orleans -- Rescuers along the hurricane-ravaged Gulf Coast pushed aside the dead to reach the living.

100 Dead in One Mississippi County
One Mississippi county alone said its death toll was at least 100, and officials are "very, very worried that this is going to go a lot higher," said Joe Spraggins, civil defense director for Harrison County, home to Biloxi and Gulfport. In neighboring Jackson County, officials said at least 10 deaths were blamed on the storm.

Several victims in Harrison County were from a beachfront apartment building, which collapsed under a 25-foot wall of water as Katrina slammed the Gulf Coast with 145-mph winds. Louisiana officials said many were feared dead there, too, making Katrina one of the most punishing storms to hit the United States in decades.

  • Coverage American Progress Action

    ~~~

    Amnesia and Gaza Genocide

  • by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 05:57:12 AM EST
    Thanks for this informative article...it will defintely have significant world and US economic impact we haven't even figured out yet, if all plays out as you say.

    And it is difficult to get a perspective here...so this is helpful.

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:13:37 AM EST
    Apart from all the damage that you rightly point out is unknown at this point, the energy implications are stark, not just on the oil front, but also on the power front.

    Power prices are closely linked to those of natural gas. The US has seen an unprecedented bomm in gas-fired power plants in the last 15 years, and the marginal price of power is largely set by that of gas-fired plants: to simplify, oal and nuclear are cheaper and always produce (and their producers will now get windfalls), but the market for power clears when enough gas-fired plants produce the rest of what's needed.

    Gas fired plants were competitive with coal with "normal prices" for natgas, i.e. 2-3$/mbtu, the historical norm until a few years ago. Natural gas is now at ABOVE 11$/mbtu, i.e. 4 times higher than what was expected only a few years ago.

    You cna expect retail prices of electricity to shoot up by 50-100% in the next few months (there is some lag due to inertia in price formulas, long term contracts with fixed prices, and regulatory hurdles) - or a California-like crisis if retial prices are blocked while production costs skyrocket.

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:16:08 AM EST
    So wonder what this does to the US economy...and how that impact, impacts the rest of us (particularly hear in Europe)?

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:20:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    prob not a lot.  It's not like we're a manufacturing base  for export anymore.  

    And it will be fairly short lived.  Most of the production will be back by Xmas.  

    by HiD on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 07:58:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    .
    Can you believe it!

    Secretary of Energy Samuel W. Bodman said to release strategic petroleum reserves (SPR) within days at the request of oil corporations. He also mentioned both crucial pipelines are down because pumps do not work due to power outage. I can't imagine strategic oil pipelines dependent on electrical power and not self-generating diesel units.

    Shame on USA - lack of refineries and preparation for natural disaster.

    ~~~

    Amnesia and Gaza Genocide

    by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:12:45 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Generators or electric, it doesn't matter. It's all under water, so what's the difference?

    The truly scary thing is that the levees that were designed to keep water out are keeping water in and that the pumps are off the grid now, which means no one really knows how they'll get the water out once the levees are secured. In other words, you can't get the water out unless you have power sent to the pumps, and you can't start the pumps unless the water is out. Catch-22.

    I find this diary a bit over the top. The storm has taken an enormous human toll, much worse than was initially feared, but economically they'll be OK. Let's not talk about $$$ just yet people. There are men and women and children dying. If you do want to talk about money then perhaps take comfort in the fact that the initial surveys of the gulf rigs found very little damage so they are very optimistic. As for the City of New Orleans, it is not dead forever. They will come back to it and rebuild it as we knew it. They will not abandon it. Hopefully they will learn from their mistakes by banning develop in the Delta and allowing the river to flood the plain so that sediment is dropped and marshland can develop.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:08:42 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    .
    Flood pumps in New Orleans are not working because installation is inundated.

    The pipeline transport pumps are not working because the electric grid is down, thus it is common practise in European strategic facilities to be self-sufficient with diesel generators, just like hospitals should be able to operate for days in case of national disaster.

    Homeland Security starts at home :: not in Iraq!

    Take some lessons from the Dutch who have survived centuries below sea level, and know how to build levees, dikes and keep the polders dry!

    ~~~

    Amnesia and Gaza Genocide

    by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:35:05 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I'm not sure you're getting the state of the disaster. They HAD generators. That's why people were holed up in New Orleans during the storm. The problem is, almost 90% of the city is under water, some of it in under 20 feet of water. There is no generator that can withstand that and provide power. In fact, it would be very dangerous to do so under those conditions. What are they doing in New Orleans? They are actually taking everything off the grid for fear of gas explosions and the like. The first thing they have to do is buffer the levees. Then they have to pump the water out. This will take weeks and months. Then we can start talking about clean water (the most important need), then electricity and gas.

    Consider, the Superdome is a world-class facility built with modern technology to withstand a category 5 hurricane and to become a fortress even against an immense flood. It's generators are holding out for three days now, but the recent reports are that they are being compromised.

    I have to say, this has turned into a rather nasty blame-game thread. As Americans, I know we have to take it, but really let up a bit until the criticism is wholly deserved.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:43:13 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    They HAD generators. That's why people were holed up in New Orleans during the storm.

    Oui means generators for the pumps and hospitals, not ordinary citizens in their homes. Those could be built weather-resistant (for example, putting them underground: no wind damage). The 20-feet water is 20 feet because pumps aren't working.

    I have to say, this has turned into a rather nasty blame-game thread.

    Why do you insist on merging all Americans into a single mass (unlike most of those you find offending), and why do you only see "blame" instead of "this and this could be fixed"?

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:59:28 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Because the criticism comes without a command of the facts.

    I mean, pumps without generators/ Hospitals without generators? The Superdome, for instance, is a world class facility built to withstand a cat5 hurricane. It is starting to fail, and so are the generators. The water is rising inside the dome itself.

    I can't understand why people would apportion blame when they don't have the facts.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:23:21 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The Superdome also depends on the city's pumps supposed to maintain the city during a levee breach. "Built to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane" is more about wind.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:31:57 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The Superdome has its own generators. It was built to withstand a huge flood, not the solely the effects of the wind. As I said, it's generators are failing.

    The city's pumps were not built to withstand a leveee breach. This is the main problem. Once water gets inside the levees, then the levees become your biggest enemies. The levees keep the water in and prevent the pumps from working. The fact is, the only way to keep the city safe in to prevent a lot of water from getting in. The city's pumps work well with a normal flood when a levee hasn't been breached.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:36:53 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    .
    Sure - I'll hold back some criticism, don't make the disaster political. Same argument I heard from London after the bomb attacks on 7/7 and 24/7. Also after the killing of Juan Charles de Menezes, don't jump to conclusions.

    So I must appreciate your take, all previous "no-bid and no-performance" state and federal contracts, left the city of New Orleans with flood pumps that work under ideal environmental conditions :: sunny and dry weather with wind speed below limits of 50 mph. Give me a break! You're just being a prick.


    Keeping the polders dry - under all circumstances

    Levees that do not have emergency guarding, nor direct action by the engineers corps when there is a chance of a break inundating New Orleans, making the disaster complete. National Guard units operating in Iraq, left Homeland Security to no one.

    ~~~

    Amnesia and Gaza Genocide

    by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:32:43 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    That qualifies for the level of discourse I typically expect from you.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:43:18 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    people can disagree, can have honest disagreements...or even misunderstandings...but resorting to name calling isn't cool. This isn't personal, even though people have strong personal feelings. Name calling is non-productive...

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:16:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yep. Tough I disagree with Upstate's criticism, with such responses too. Oui, please, could we just have your technical arguments?

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:44:18 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    .
    A statement of fact - see BooMan's mission: "Don't be a prick".

    This isn't the first time he/she qualifies for such a determination.

    Let Upstate NY just mind his/her own posts and don't comment anymore on mine - he/she is relentless until the last word. That is IMHO a qualification of a prick, or worse a troll. He/she discourages a normal discussion or debate.

    I just about had it here.

    ~~~

    Amnesia and Gaza Genocide

    by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, what remains to be said - you should have minded your own advice and not have posted the above, or the previous.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:14:30 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    When you call people fascists and then blame it on their religion, don't expect sympathy.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 03:15:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Now to counterpoint my argument with UpstateNY and US Blues: you should have made clear that this criticism is aimed at authorities and lawmakers, and is not an example of schadenfreude.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:46:19 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Sometime, even in the Netherlands, it's not working: see the 1953 catastrophic flooding, more than 1800 deads.
    by Hansvon on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 05:07:51 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Please keep us updated Ben P. The international news agencies are limited by the lack of contacts on the ground and so we are just getting a small segment of news recycled again and again.
    by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:24:35 AM EST
    There's no excuse, though, for yesterday's La Libération to run the headline "Katrina spares New Orleans" on page 1 or "New Orleans survives Katrina" inside.

    As Ben P's post makes crystal clear, this disaster is catastrophic.

    by Maatfan on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:24:19 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    This is part of my point. I did this after scanning the European major papers and saw things like that. FWIW, large parts of the US media took a long time to realize what is really going on, and still you have "Slate" yesterday running a front page story debating the value of male circumcision.

    Ben P

    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:36:47 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    From this Der Spiegel article:

    The Financial Times Deutschland refrains from any commentary about the human costs of the hurricane and focuses on the economic impact it will have on oil supplies. "For the already-strained global energy market, Katrina is a small nightmare: The huge world-wide demand for oil has left producers and workers pushing their limits of capacity. If production platforms and refineries on the Gulf of Mexico have to shut down, the supply holes will not be easy to fill." Even if the current projects of the economic impact of Katrina are exaggerated, one thing is clear, the paper says. In the end, the storm will have proven "the vulnerability of the oil-dependent world economy."


    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:35:18 AM EST
    Ben, I am somewhat ambivolent about this. For a start, the floodings and forest fires were not of the "garden variety" but very likely the result of the same effect that is causing hurricanes to be more severe, if not necessarily more frequent. That is of course global warming.

    Since that is very much fuelled by cheap energy prices in the USA encouraging the use of fossil fuels, should we be so sympathetic to the US economy now it is literally reaping the whirlwind?

    In addition, most of the town now devastated were built on the coast after the normally protecting flora had been removed - all those pesky mangrove swamps had a purpose. Still the states were too greedy for the money from the offshore casinos to stop the ravagin of the shoreline and construction on it. Add into that the extensive systems of levee and canal systems that exacerbated the problems of coastal erosion. Then throw in the failure of the national government to raise the protective barriers for the historical cities to maintain their establihed levels, let alone take account of increased sea levels associated with the melting of the icecaps and the disaster in New Orleans was not only predicatble but was inevitable.

    I am sympathetic to the 62% of the householders who were too poor to afford flood insurance but quite frankly should they have been allowed to build on land that was it was inevitable would flood? Should we now bail out the US and help those poor, mostly black, residents who both state and federal governments condemned to live in "houses built on sand"? When the government of Banglasesh, one of the poorest on Earth, can bult emergency flood refuges for its coastal residents in danger from the effects of monsoon surges, why could not the richest provies such structures in the local communities most at risk?

    We have also had macho nonsense from the Governor of Mississippi and the Mayor of New Orleans about "rebuilding bigger and better". What of course they do not mean is that they will re-establish the natural barriers to coastal erosion and work with nature rather than trying to fight it with increasingly futile technologies. Maybe it takes a disaster to kick the US into action. uite frankly the problems that you will have with pump prices are long overdue. Concentrating a high proportion of refineries on this vulnerable coast was asking for trouble. About one tenth of capacity will be knocked out for several weeks which will of course reduce demand for crude oil. The world price may very well fall as the US is incapable of converting it to final product while the pump price will rise to near European levels but without the income to the government.

    The tragedy is not the destruction of property or the effect on the economy, as always it is that the poor and ignored are the worst affected.

    by Londonbear on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:47:07 AM EST
    All fair points.

    But I'm trying to provide a context of how this crisis is and is going to be understood in the United States and demonstrate that it will have long term effects for this nation, and most likely by extension, the world.

    Ben P

    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:49:01 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    And frankly, yes, I think common decency should require us to be sympathetic for the American people, most of whom, as you note, had little ability to control events as they unfold.

    I also have little truck for the argument that suggests "people should know better than to build in such places." This is the kind of thing that is circulating amongst American rightists right now. Should San Fransisco be abandoned? Should Bangladesh? Who gets to determine where we should build and live? To say that people simply "should know better" than to live in New Orleans is a bit simplistic.

    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:52:49 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I was not placing the blame on the people forced to live in the most vulnerable areas because of poverty, I was laying the blame at the feet of the city and state planners who allowed housing to be built there in the first place.

    There also seems to be a problem with lack of public education in what to do in the event of a disaster - surely it was not only the case of a hurricane that could have caused a breach in the levees to instigate floding. I heard for example that lives were saved because people who had been through earlier flooding kept axes in their roof spaces so they could break through and sit on them in the event of their being cuaght. Others had to be rescued by the Coastgarst breaking through from the outside and no doubt many perished becuase they were so trapped. A simple cheap precaution that could have been recommended.

    There are surely other solutions rathr than raising the level of the levees - how about dredging all that mud which is currently going out to sea instead of replenishing the mangrove swamps and raising the level of the land withing the  "poulders"?

    In general areas like SanFransicso have accommodated the known dangers b adopting appropriate building codes. Let's not forget that the US has not built a new oil refinery for many years, mostly due to "Nibys" refusing to have one in their back yard. Point the finger at them and the big oil companies which have not diversified away from a dangerous area.

    I am afraid I am one of those people who think that the only way the US in general can be convinced to change it fuel consumption pattern is thorugh a shock like this. As I understand it, the major problem will come when the extent of damage to the refineries is known. Increased production in other areas could make up the world demand but if they are unable to process it, th US will run out of fuel for vehicles even when the rest of the world can function much as usual.  

    by Londonbear on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 07:33:26 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    People love to live near the Coast.  You can't stop people from doing what they want to do in a democracy.  Esp if there is money to made off of development.

    Just to ask, what are you folks planning to do if the Thames barrier isn't enough to handle a storm some day?
     ........

    Over 80% evacuated.  Many of the rest were just stubborn, while it's true many were too poor to find a way out.  It's not a matter of education.  Stubborn folks tempt Natural Selection.  The poor we just flat fail due to lack of will to spend the money.

    In general areas like SanFransicso have accommodated the known dangers b adopting appropriate building codes. Let's not forget that the US has not built a new oil refinery for many years, mostly due to "Nibys" refusing to have one in their back yard. Point the finger at them and the big oil companies which have not diversified away from a dangerous area.

    SF has improved building codes but a repeat of the 1906 quake will still kill thousands and cost billions.  There's only so much you can do.  As for the refinery situation.  That may be conventional wisdom but it's crap.  The US refines way more crude into way more mogas/diesel than it did 20 years ago.  We expanded within the existing units.  While shutting down the smaller, uneconomic units.

    The main reason no grassroots refinery hasn't been built in yonks is they didn't make squat after 1980.  We had surplus capacity, Europe had surplus capacity dumping mogas into our markets keeping margins low, the Venz build 4 huge export refineries, the Saudis built several, the Italians built a bunch of export refineries etc.  The US majors were dumping refineries because they were cash pigs for environmental upgrades returning sweet FA on capital invested..... Don't believe everything you hear on MSM.

    by HiD on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:10:24 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    what terrible sentence structure.  2AM must be my limit
    by HiD on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:58:17 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The Thames Barrier replacement is already being planned. At the moment it will protect central London from the worst expected storm surges for maybe another 20 or so years but certainly a lot less than its expected life when built. London has a combination of raising sea levels and a tipping of SE England to contend with. The critical periods are when winds and high tides drive water up the Channel and into the North Sea.

    The new flood management will have to deal with the developments downstream called "London Gateway". As well as raised banks and the possibility of a second barrier, the plans include areas which will be allowed to flood to accommodate the water. A part of the riverbank round the Millenium Dome was also set aside for reed beds (our version of mangrove) to allow them to flood and absorb a limited amount of extra water.

    Just such a scheme is being put in place in parts of East Anglia. Very high flood barriers have been breached and the farmland behind it allowed to revert to saltwater bogs. A flood tide times this will act as blotting paper to protect the slightly higher areas behind.

    by Londonbear on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:11:32 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    City and state planners who built housing? I don't want to sound flippant or insulting, but you are aware that new Orleans is a very old city by New World standards, right?
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:50:32 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The hurricane experts aren't associating this with global warming. It's a big hurricane in a bad hurricane season that happened to hit a big, unprepared city.

    It IS an example of the sort of thing that will happen as the climate warms, though.

    In any case, it's not really fair to ask whether people should have built on places where it's sure to flood. People build houses in New England, Charleston, and Missouri where huge earthquakes are sure to happen. People live in Florida where more hurricanes are certain, and Kansas, where tornadoes are guaranteed, and next to creeks that overflow.

    There's no guaranteed safe place to live.

    by asdf on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:07:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Fred Barnes on Fox says all those red staters are subsidizing the coasters because their areas are low risk......  what an asshole (barnes not you!)

    Not to mention Minnesota and other parts of the Midwest flood like hell in spring thaws.  How about all those forest fires; no one should build anywhere in the Rockies.  And Kansas/Oklahoma,  whoowheee those tornados are so risky everyone should just move away from there.....

    by HiD on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:15:08 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    There's no guaranteed safe place to live.

    Indeed, but not with the same probability. The massive earthquakes you mention happened along weakly active intra-continental fault lines, and the next one may not happen for a few thousand years, unlike a big one in Frisco.

    I do think it's fair to ask whether people should have built on places where it's sure to flood, when that likelihood is great, and escape routes few or none. At a seaside just like at a riverside, there are danger zones that can be avoided. After the August 2002 flood in Germany, there has been some (but not complete) advance on this. Furthermore, construction can worsen the effects of a natural disaster - Londonbear mentioned mangroves, along rivers, the problem is faster and higher floods if the river is regulated all the way and has no floodplains due to narrow dams. And houses can be built flooding-proof (to some extent), that is, building codes similar to California's could be put in place.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:49:51 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    the entire Netherlands should be evacuated, no?
    by gradinski chai on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:25:22 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    How does that follow from my argument? The Netherlands has an extensive dam and drainage/pumps system, not to mention the floodgates, so you can't say people there aren't prepared or building in a dangerous place without much thought of the dangers.

    However, there has been some rethinking in the Netherlands too, during recent floods along the Rhine: dams might be enough against the sea but not the river, so floodplains are needed.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:48:59 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    We're talking about a city that's existed for hundreds of years. A city that has no rival for culture in the US, and the US badly needs culture. The world's music has been influenced by the very weather of New Orleans. And the food is outstanding. The people of this city (of which 80% vote for Democratic progressivism) are quite friendly. It's a poor town, but it has a lot of history and a lot of soul.

    So, before we decide the worth and value of New Orleans, let's not forget the human element. No one "decided" to build there. New Orleans was a French outpost at its outset. It grew because people liked to eat, drink and trade along the banks of the Mississippi.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:55:36 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    1. The core of the city is old. The suburbs aren't. (I think Londonbear was explicit about that.)

    2. Part of what Londonbear criticised is policies that contributed to a general sinking of the Mississippi Delta.

    3. There is the Dutch way: building adequate defenses, scaled for the highest possible danger - i.e. storm surge from a Category 5, not Category 3. (That was the lesson of the 1838 Budapest flood I mentioned, too.)


    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:07:09 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I have no problem with Londonbear criticizing the destruction of the natural banks. My earliest post in this blog made mention of that fact right away. In my opinion, that's a fact based criticism that is much deserved.

    As for the suburbs, this is a city with culture and history. I'm not sure what you want to do to prevent people from building there. Do they isolate New Orleans and say, "No more people, no more building"? The town would wither and die. Some allowance has to be made for the way human beings collect and live their lives, and New Orleans and environs is a fantastic expression of that human will.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:19:16 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Hm, I'm not sure it would die, Venice didn't either. But, if 30+-foot levees are built each time, growth could still happen, albeit more slowly. Either that, or an evacuation plan providing for everyone and taught to everyone (maybe with exercises like in Japan).

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:47:25 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, 85% of the city left. The state provided transportation to those who didn't have it. I'm not really going to question why 15% stayed behind. Obviously, that calls for a reading which yields a thousand different answers.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:49:47 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Also, the levees are 25 feet, so you're right that an extra 5 feet might have made the difference. In that sense, New Orleans avoided the worst. However, what will be the criticism when a storm the size of Katerina hits New Orleans directly? At that point, a 50 foot levee won't be enough. So add on 5 feet or more and you'll likely avoid catastrophe from a storm that directly hits Mississippi. But that still won't save you from a direct confrontation with the likes of Katrina. Does Holland have levees that are higher than 50 feet?
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:54:16 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, from news reports (for example), I was in the impression that the highest levees in NO are 18 feet. I even read somewhere else that they were scaled for a Cat 3 only. Maybe the 25 feet you quote is not above water level, but total height (i.e. above city ground level near the dam, which is below sea level).

    I am incredulous about the 50-feet storm surge. I checked with Googlenews, nothing there (tried fifty and 50, foot and feet). The reports I saw spoke of exactly half of that (for example) - not even with waves added is that 50. If water reached 50 feet high somewhere, it must have been due to the relief - i.e., something 'focusing' the water.

    (But for Biloxi anyway, given its situation, I think only total evacuation would have made sense - the roads were there for that.)

    (About the maximum height of Durch dams, Oui hopefully has an answer. My city has dams 33 feet high, and that's just against a river, so I'm not sure 50 is out of the range.)

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:37:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    This river-side levee (the one that was breached) was 24 feet above water level. The annual high water level for the river is about 10 feet. The projected storm water level for a Cat 3-4 was 18 feet. Off the lake, you are indeed correct, the levees are 18 feet, but the ones one the other side (including one of the two that were breached) are at 24 feet.

    As for the storm surge, you are correct. 25 feet. What I did was mix up the size of the waves with the surge.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:10:55 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Thanks for the clarification. Tho', 50 or even 25-feet waves? I read of the biggest waves being half the latter (hence the "waves added" comment).

    Meanwhile, I Googled for Dutch dikes myself, I instantly found a 39-foot high one (actually three behind each other).

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:31:51 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Meanwhile, I found this article, one predating Katrina. Apparently, the river dike was built 25 feet high - decades ago, but the city sank several feet since, so the newspapers might still be right. (That link also mentions that the current system is built for a cat-3, and mentions in kind of an alarmist way vague plans for an upgrade to cat-5, which may take decades to be realised.)

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:35:00 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    They certainly have their shit together. As I'm sure you're aware Dodo, the engineers in New Orleans already had the plans but the money was stripped away by the Feds. However, since the plan just came into being in 2000, I'm not sure they would have been done with the new levees five years later even if they had retained the funding.

    Accuweather says there were 50 foot waves and a 25 foot surge.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 03:41:10 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    You're wrong about the probability of a devastating earthquake in the central or eastern United States.

    It's estimated that there is a 25% chance of a magnitude 7.5 or greater earthquake centered in the New Madrid area by 2040. And in the Charleston area it's around 50% for a 6.0 quake. In the Northeast, because of the many unreinforced masonry buildings, the results of a major earthquake would be worse than in California--plus the population density is higher. The probability of an event is lower, but the resulting damage would be worse.

    And there's considerable risk of a Tsunami on the New England coast. Who'd a thunk?

    Any of these have the potential of being much bigger disasters than Katrina in New Orleans. People just ignore the facts, like I said...

    by asdf on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:33:57 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    New Orleans is an organic growth, of the kind that the human species tends to erect in the unlikeliest spaces. So, no one was really allowed to build there. They built there because they were human beings, with all their hopes and faults, sentiments and illogic. It's an old city for the new world. Since its inception, it was a bad idea to build there. But this is how humans are. I think your reasoning would also condemn cities like Venice and Florence.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:15:29 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    by das monde on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:49:26 AM EST
    I can't remember right now where I saw this (or read this), but your additional data about the Louisiana port being a major grain export outlet reminded me of it - a guy was saying "forget oil, wheat is the real world-impact story here", with a lot of Us exports out for a while, a number of countries that depend on imported wheat (including big chunks of the Middle East and China) will face consequences as well.

    I've been saying for a while now that the situation is tight, and that an external shock or disruption could trigger a nasty crisis, and here we have a mostly unexpected shock which on its own causes majot damage, but whose impact could be magnified horribly by the background situation.

    I am gettign seriously scared.

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:50:17 AM EST
    Don't get scared.  Aussies/Brazil/Argy will cover the wheat shortfalls.  Unless they are having bad years...There's a lot of grain out there in the world.  From what I hear, there are huge strides being made in the Ukraine to get up to world scale production/yields.

    And its not like the Port won't get put back together pretty quickly.  Doesn't sound like the docks were much damaged.  The ugly storm surge whacked MS.  NOLA really wasn't looking so bad until the levees gave way.  That's crushing the people but the infrastructure isn't being washed away.

    by HiD on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:18:57 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    You're right, but I'd suggest that we're heading for a situation where we're running out of fallbacks. If one of the other producers has a bad year, or there's another storm in the NOLA area or there's a big terrorist attack somewhere there will be real entertainment.

    In most situations it's not the first problem that gets you: it's the second or the third when you start running out of fallbacks. Getting lost might not kill you, but not having sufficient equipment and getting injured will.

    by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:24:19 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Maybe the French farmers will be also happy, for once...

    I don't have enough info on the topic, I was just repeating what I heard, which sounds within the realm of the possible, even if it ends up not being true. But I do remember last year that the French wheat exporters were happy despite a poor crop because export prices were goign up, with China becoming a net importer and some failures elsewhere. I need to check what the global numbers look like.

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:25:23 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The best summary of the global wheat situation I can find readily is in this June quarter crops paper produced by the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics [Note: 14page .pdf file with extensive graphs - may take time to download].  For those who just want a short set of summary figures on wheat alone there is a table here.

    The situation seems to be that

    • projected US wheat exports make up 27 million tonnes of a global trade totalling 107Mt;
    • world consumption (605Mt)is forecast to be higher than production (600Mt) and covered by drawdown of stocks;
    • exports from both Australia and Argentina are expected to fall in 2005-06 (in Australia's case due to a poor season);
    • exports from the EU and Canada are expected to rise.

    This report on figures from the International Grains Council this month has fairly similar numbers and also provides this neat summary:
    "On a world level, smaller harvests in the European Union, Argentina, North America, India, the Middle East (Iran and Turkey); however these will be partly offset by better harvests in China and Australia," French analyst Strategie Grains said.

    "Given these circumstances, the world balance could tighten rapidly if weather events cause a reduction to the Argentine and Australian harvests compared to current forecasts. This would then have a bullish impact on prices," it added.

    Looks to me like prolonged disruption of exports from the Mississippi port areas would lead to a big price rise and big problems for countries who import from the US.   I'm afraid I don't know who holds the world's stockpiles of wheat, but this should probably be discoverable with a search.

    by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:38:35 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The water is still rising in New Orleans because the levee's have been broken.  The truly horrible part is that is seems no fucken plans were made at all and I'm listening to to tv now at 4 in the morning and the news is saying that the Army of Engineers is trying to 'figure out' a plan to stop this...this is criminal..

    While so many of our National Guard units are in Iraq..with their amphibious vehicles..more good planning.

    Bush is supposed to be finally meandering his way back to Washington tomorrow afternoon to sit in a planning session on what to do..he's just a bit goddamn late.  Then he's planning on I guess flying over the areas on Friday?

    I'm to tired to write anymore and am going to get some sleep ..if bush can sleep I should be able to, right.

    "People never do evil so throughly and happily as when they do it from moral conviction."-Blaise Pascal

    by chocolate ink on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 07:04:09 AM EST
    The water is still rising in New Orleans because the levee's have been broken.  The truly horrible part is that is seems no fucken plans were made at all and I'm listening to to tv now at 4 in the morning and the news is saying that the Army of Engineers is trying to 'figure out' a plan to stop this...this is criminal..

    Instead of planning, here is what responsible officials do:

    Blanco asked residents to spend Wednesday in prayer.

    Well, that sure helps to repair dams.

    Meanwhile, some Schadenfreude:

    Among the thousands of homes destroyed was Mississippi Sen. Trent Lott's 154-year-old oceanfront residence in Pascagoula, according to a spokeswoman from his office. A friend had boarded it up ahead of the hurricane's arrival Monday, said spokeswoman Susan Irby.

    "He's been told there's nothing left," she said. "They plan to go out to see if they can recover any valuables."

    Now, if only the same happened to all oil exec's houses and Cheney's and Bush's ranches, we'd face a different future...

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:06:10 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I am sure you didn't want to offend everybody, but thank you - you did, by your insinuation, we do not realise the scale of this.

    Have you heard of the Hamburg Flood of 1962? 200km fast Storm. abut 310 dead - over 60.000 lost their roof.

    http://www.saevert.de/2sturmflut1962.htm here are some meteorological information on that, little flood, which hit a town of over a million.

    But guess what, we had a competend man in charge. He became later Chancellor - Helmut Schmidt.
    He had read his Schimmelreiter

    Sorry for the rant. But not everything was invented in America, is bigger in America or is more painful in America. We do know how to distinguish and we are with you in your pain.

    I sincerely hope all your and all of your friends loved once are save and sound and I pray that the mess can be cleared up quickly.

    by PeWi on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 07:14:02 AM EST
    Nor should we forget the floods of January 31/February 1 1953 in which 300+ people were killed in East Anglia nd more that 1800 in the Netherlands. Fortunately most of the flooding was not in city areas but vast areas of farmland were inundated.
    by Londonbear on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 07:57:11 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, I was taken aback by that part, too.

    In my own city, Budapest, capital of Hungary, a catastrophic flood happened in 1838. Just below the city, the Danube has a strong bend where an island begins. In March 1838, an ice dam formed at this point. On the 13th, after water rose 6 m, the dams defending Pest (the eastern bank merchant town, just then turning into a workers' city) overflowed, flooding the entire city with ice-cold water, some houses two storeys high. Due to engaged rescuers, only a few hundred died, but most buildings were damaged beyond repair. The same early spring flood destroyed a lot of other towns and crops.

    The fear of another such flood led to a grand rebuilding programme over the next half a century (delay due to the aftermath of the 1848-9 independence war). The river was regulated so that no ice dam can form, got giant stone dams (rather ugly IMO) all across the city, inside the dams giant pumping stations were built for the canalisation, areas along the river above the city were designated floodplains (peasants had to accept the opening of dams onto their fields). But the grandest was that the whole inner city was filled up with earth and rubble to a much higher level (at places more than 4 m), and there was a building code and monitoring for cellars. (Most of what tourists see today is about 130 years old.)

    Just one year after the system was finished, in 1876, the next giant ice flood came - and the defenses worked. However, just three years after that, the then second largest city in the country (Szeged on the Tisza river) was completely destroyed (only 5% of houses didn't collapse) in a flood - but as people saw it coming (multiple lines of defense broke one after the other), again 'only' 150 died of 70,000.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:31:05 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    LOOP is down but undamaged.  All they need is power to re-start.

    Henry Hub is already back up and pumping like crazy.  Looks like some are pulling out of storage early to make up for the shortfall in USGC offshore production.

    Lots of good info at:

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/special/eia1_katrina.html

    by HiD on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 07:54:03 AM EST
    Your link says:


    The Louisiana Offshore Oil Port (LOOP), which stopped all operations as of Sunday, August 28, in order to give employees time to evacuate, appears to have suffered "no apparent catastrophic damage" according to a port official, based on an initial damage assessment. The biggest hurdle the LOOP facility has in restarting operations is in restoring electrical power. Typically, about 1 million barrels per day goes through the LOOP.

    "no apparent catastrophic damage" is not exactly a full "okay"...

    And what is needed to bring power back? Are transmission lines down? Some of the big transformators destroyed by the flood? Oe some other reason?

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:27:43 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Platt said on Monday:


    The status of the key Louisiana Offshore Oil Port, which handles about
    10% of the foreign crude shipped to the US, remained unclear Monday in the
    aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
         Calls inquiring about an update on LOOP went unanswered or met
    connection difficulty as a result of the storm. Sources in the domestic crude
    markets also noted they had not spoken to anyone from LOOP.
         LOOP continued to run a notice on its website indicating that all its
    marine and pipeline delivery operations were suspended as of 11 a.m. EDT
    Sunday, and that "operations will resume when conditions permit."

    The LOOP site says nothing new right now.

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:34:25 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It's not just LOOP, the problem might be Port Fourchon which has been reported to be under water.

    This is the main supply and support base for the offshore operations. It also is the site of the booster pumps for the pipeline going inland from LOOP.

    If the port facilities themselves and the pumps are only slightly damaged, it does have one weak spot - the access road. This is only just above sea level and if it has been washed away it could be some time before operations return to normal.

    Eats cheroots and leaves.

    by NeutralObserver on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:03:02 AM EST
    [ Parent ]


    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:36:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    sounds like no power anywhere in NOLA area.  Loop is due south.  I've no idea how damaged the grid is, but barge mounted LM 2500's are out there.  I guarantee the Oilcos are renting them as we speak.

    The oral report from a LOOP spokesman a few hours ago was pretty upbeat.  Give him power and he was good to go.  It's not like what they have is all that complicated.  Just tanks and pumps.  As long as the electric motors didn't flood, no big worries.  And they'd know if they had flooded pumps.

    by HiD on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:54:07 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    That's the big problem right there. Normally, to restore power, you need other sections of the grid working. In other words, a section without power needs to be "jumped." But with the grid entirely out, this is a huge problem. Much of it is under water as well so as soon as you jump a section, it can short very easily. How will they run the pumps to get the water out?
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:18:32 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Entergy spokesman was on earlier saying their main backbone lines were OK.  Places like the lOOP that use huge amounts of electricity have direct connections to the main lines.  The key for them will be can anyone get through the floods to deal with the situation.

    I just figure the LOOP will rent a serious generator and get going.  There's stuff like that sitting around in the oil patch and it can be made available ASAP if Exxon/Mobil et al just pick up the phone and say "make it so".  Those offshore housing platforms have big ass generators as do the platforms

    by HiD on Thu Sep 1st, 2005 at 02:20:32 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Ben P...I think you may see that you riled people up with this comment:

    Before I go on, I want to emphasize that this is not some kind of "garden variety" natural disaster like the flooding in Germany and Switzerland, the forest fires in Portugal...etc.

    I'm an American living in Europe, and I have been gently informed by people here that they are quite aware of the American tendency to see everything from the US lense, which is that everything is "the greatest" (the biggest, the baddest, add your adjective here). Switzerland just had a monsoon like rain for two days here, and whole villages were wiped out (and still being dug out a week later). Portugal and Spain have been having fires all spring and summer. That's not "garden variety"...that's heavy, major league shit. I do get your concern about N.O., and share it. But if you seek sympathy from Europeans, I think you need to be aware of how they might be feeling about the environmental challenges they face, and especially if you say the US pain is worse than theirs...you will get pissed off responses. It all sucks, brother...no one escapes Mother Nature's wrath

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:22:57 AM EST
    I just can't believe the reactions to Ben P's note.

    The point was to alert everybody that this one is far worse than the usual hurricanes that hit the US twice or thrice every year, and that we should not interpret the lack of information as a sign that there was little damage (as some European papers wrote).

    I do not think the purpose was to say that the people over there deserve more sympathy than victims of other similar tragedies, past or present, over here in Europe. I am undecided whether I am more irritated by the US tendency to see everything through the US Lense or European childish reaction to that US tendency.

    I would not jump either to the conclusion that this is the effect of global warming.  As was pointed out, events of a similar magnitude have occurred in the past. Global warming may worsen things up, but this one could have happened before.

    There are lessons to be drawn from poor planning, protecting coastlines and preventing people from building their homes anywhere. This being said, you are not going to get rid of natural disasters and people should stop dreaming about a world where no such events would take place.

    'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion Rom

    by Rom on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:33:44 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The one laugh I got in the last few days was comedian Lewis Black's ripping on Americans for this tendency. He was on last night saying that Americans are like the big money winner in the office who comes in everyday and says, "I'm the greatest, you all owe your jobs to me." Then Black says, he can't understand Americans who always pride themselves in America's superiority and yet have never traveled outside its borders, even to Canada. "How do they know there aren't countries that are just giving free shit away everyday?"

    While I myself am disgusted by such mindsets and find them peculiarly American and delusional, I wasn't aware, however, how truly offensive this must be to the world. I tend to slough it off too easy as imbecility. That's the problem with living around that many imbeciles. You tend to see them for what they are, while from afar they are scary.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:00:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    "How do they know there aren't countries that are just giving free shit away everyday?"

    Shh, don't tell them...

    (that is funny...!!)

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:22:57 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I think that a lot of people are just angry with Bush, and how arrogant and unsympathetic he is/has been...so these kind of things stir people up. Like I said, I'm an American living in Europe...I "feel" very European, while still being deeply American...and I reacted to Ben's statement. It did feel to me like comparing disaster's, which plays into how Bush has set everyone up to hate the US. The US is no longer viewed sympathetically in the world (and this makes me very sad)...little, innocent comments made with the best intention, just touch that sore spot right now. Anyway, that's one interpretation.

    And, the German article I posted...I'm not sure I really agree with much that is stated in that, by the way, but felt the opinions should be put out for discussion, even though they may have touched others wrongly (my apologies, Upstateny, if this occurred).

    but, my point...there's politics and feelings involved too...its all mixed up.

    And...if we were to stop and ask each poster here, I'm certain all feel badly for the people suffering there right now. Let's assume that...

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:06:36 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Bob, I'm not offended by anyone who posted that. I just think it's off the mark. I called it putrid and vulturish, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss the possible future effects of global warming. on this very diary, I have stated that I don't discount that global warning may have played a part. But I do think it's a real reach. In some of that article I detected an attempt at irony which tried to match US global warming policy with the devastation of New Orleans. That's what I call vulturish journalism.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:17:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The access road seems to be out:


    Katrina shifted a section of the bridge between Grand Isle and Port Fourchon.

    Why does this matter?


    Oil Artery Clog Could Impact U.S. (2003)

    Eighteen percent of the entire nation's energy supply depends on a deteriorating, narrow two-lane road surrounded by water in South Louisiana.

    This is the southernmost stretch of Louisiana Highway 1, providing the only land-based access to Port Fourchon, which supports 75 percent of all the deepwater oil and gas production in the Gulf, according to the LA 1 Coalition, comprised of private and public stakeholders intent on saving and improving the roadway.

    The Port also is the site of the booster pumps that carry crude oil from the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port (LOOP) to underground salt dome storage areas in Galliano, along Highway 1.

    Even on a good day, water laps close to the edges of this vital strip of concrete roadway, which not so long ago was surrounded by marshland. Besides its crucial role in the country's energy supply, the highway serves as the hurricane evacuation route for residents in southern Lafourche Parish and Grand Isle, as well as 6,000 offshore oil and gas employees.

    Today, it's a sitting target for the next big hurricane, which can strike at any time during the annual June 1 to November 30 season.


    REMARKS FOR THE HONORABLE NORMAN Y. MINETA SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION - MAY 19, 2005

    This small and vulnerable road is the only access route to Port Fourchon - a port that supports close to one-fifth of the Nation's oil and gas refining capacity and nearly 25 percent of Louisiana's commercial fishing catch.

    Port Fourchon has expanded dramatically in the last 25 years - from 25 acres in 1980 to over 700 acres in 2005. And estimates project that the truck traffic alone on Route 1 will grow by more than 40 percent through 2010.

    It is clear that a two-lane road that floods at the sight of rain is no longer adequate to service this vital Gulf port.
    (...)

    But the only way that these maintenance materials and equipment can make their way to Port Fourchon in the first place is on trucks traveling on LA 1. So when a storm or an accident renders this road impassable, it disrupts operations on the offshore rigs, slowing down oil and gas production and service to maintain the integrity of our pipelines.

    If LA 1 is impassible, it also halts shrimp and oysters shipments to restaurants across America.



    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:01:42 AM EST
    I've put up a longer diary on this topic on dKos:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/31/93236/5416

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 09:36:06 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    For people in Europe who have not had as much access to video footage of the damage I can truly say that I cannot find the words to explain how widespread the devestation is, nor how deeply the US economy will be impacted.

    I also have to say that placing blame or comparing disasters strikes me as plain distasteful this morning. A city of 500,000 people has been trashed. Water up to 20 feet deep fills 80% of the city, the water is filled with sewage, toxic chemicals, dead bodies, debris, snakes and probably alligators as well.

    I have seen video of major highway bridges that have collapsed, an oil platform that broke loose and is wedged under a highway bridge, casinos built in floating barges that are sitting on dry land, either on someone's house or perhaps the local food store. This is infrastucture stuff that will take months to fix. And if the infrastructure is trashed, the economic toll is huge. So where do people go to work when the town is destroyed? Where do they live? Who feeds them? The economic impact is more than the price of energy.

    Global warming- yes that probably increased this storm, but any hurricane that sits over the Gulf of Mexico feeds off the warm water, this is not a fluke occurance, just a combination of bad circumstances.

    The levees in NO are under the authority of the US Army Corps of Engineers, and planned work on the system has been underfunded by the Bush Junta since 2001 (no link, but I found the links on Daily Kos last night). So blame Bush for that, and blame Bush for lack of better planning.

    But don't blame the US alone for global warming, cause evryone has pitched in on that cause. And don't compare disasters, cause they all suck.

    by US Blues on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:02:12 AM EST
    I also have to say that placing blame or comparing disasters strikes me as plain distasteful this morning.

    "Before I go on, I want to emphasize that this is not some kind of "garden variety" natural disaster like the flooding in Germany and Switzerland, the forest fires in Portugal"

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:11:33 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    And don't compare disasters, cause they all suck.

    Totally know what you mean on this (see my comment above)...unfortunately, the writer started out by comparing the US disaster with recent European disasters, calling the "garden variety" in comparison. Come on man...as you aptly said, "don't compare disasters, cause they all suck". They are still digging out towns in the Swiss alps that were buried by floods last week...NOT garden variety. Rare and dangerous. And they are still digging out bodies here in Switzerland...

    But...the real point: We send our prayers and thoughts to ALL those affected, everywhere...

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:50:30 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Whoa, fellas! I read the original and know how things got started. That's why my statement was universal. No such thing as garden variety, different sizes and causes is all.
    by US Blues on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:27:08 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Again, I apologize for doing this.

    I wrote this post rather rapidly late last night. I by no means wanted to compare human tragedy. The point I was making was that - or at least trying to make - is that the effects and devastation of this Hurricane, in all terms, is of magnitude at least several times greater than anything I have ever seen in the United States. The point I'm trying to make is that this is not just Hurricane Andrew again. It is not a "garden variety" disaster. And I put "garden variety" in quotes so as to emphasize the fact that no disaster is really "garden variety."

    Again, I wasn't sensisitve enough to how that was going to read, but my point was certainly not to make it sound like some disasters aren't really "that bad."

    Ben P

    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:43:17 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Thanks Ben...I sense everyone has said their piece, and all is understood now (hopefully, anyway). Peace.

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 04:34:20 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Geopolitical Diary: Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005
    August 31, 2005 02 55  GMT

    Hurricane Katrina rotated back onto radar again Tuesday. On Aug. 29, we had reached the conclusion that Katrina's impact was geopolitically non-critical; the information that we were seeing indicated the effect was limited. In retrospect, the fact was that we were not receiving much information at all. We took the relative silence as an indication of limited damage. Put simply, we assumed that there would be loud noises associated with disaster.

    In fact, Louisiana -- and parts of Mississippi as well -- had returned to a pre-industrial stage. There were few to zero electromagnetic communications. Under those conditions, information normally would spread by physical transport -- humans moving around. But humans were not moving around in the hurricane zone Monday. Roads were impassable. Boats were dangerous. Walking was slow, if possible at all. Information, in other words, was locked down.

    The situation did not improve much Tuesday, but some information was flowing, gathered primarily by aircraft and some Coast Guard cutters on the river. Information from New Orleans was better, in terms of quality rather than pleasantness. However, information from the rest of the area was sparse, contradictory and ultimately unreliable. By midday Tuesday, we concluded that we did not actually know what the situation was in the disaster zone, particularly south of New Orleans. What information we had was so spotty and contradictory that relying on it was dangerous.

    In other words, more than 24 hours after the worst of the hurricane had passed, intelligence could not answer the key questions:

    1. Was the Mississippi still fully navigable?
    2. What was the condition of the port facilities?
    3. Was the LOOP, the off-loading point for super tankers, functional?
    4. What was the condition of the oil platforms in the Gulf?

    The inability to really begin to answer these questions is the most alarming aspect of the situation. The fact that information is not flowing from the affected areas at all is an indicator of how disrupted the situation is. No one is coming out, and no one really is going in. It does not allow us to draw worst-case conclusions, such as that the Mississippi River is no longer navigable or that the port, LOOP and platforms have been destroyed. At the same time, the fact that information cannot flow out of the area indicates that the damage is extraordinarily severe.

    By the end of the day, we began receiving unconfirmed bits of good news. One source reported that the LOOP was relatively undamaged. Another reported that the Mississippi remains passable and that no vessels were sunk and blocking it. No major silting problems had been found. As promising as these reports were, however, they were coming from single rather than multiple sources and they were based on very limited sampling. So, for example, we learned that a Coast Guard cutter, the Sturgeon, was on its way to the LOOP, but not yet there. Rumors are starting to flow, and they are positive -- but not definitive.

    What appears to be definitive is that New Orleans ultimately might survive as a city, but that it will not be functioning for a very long time. Patients are being taken out of New Orleans hospitals rather than being taken to those hospitals. Emergency crews are running out of fuel. That is an indication of the degree of system collapse. It is clear that New Orleans will not be supporting a substantial population for quite a while. That means that the labor force of southern Louisiana has been dramatically reshaped -- and that means that the availability or labor has contracted. Indeed, we are prepared to speculate that those who fled from Katrina through southern Louisiana will not be returning for quite a while. That means that personnel to operate key facilities aren't going to be there.

    We will certainly know the status of things within 24 more hours. At the very least, aerial surveys and selective landings by helicopter will tell us a great deal about how long it will take for the region to recuperate. We would be very surprised if the truth about the situation on the ground has not emerged by the night of Aug. 31. But the fact is that, extraordinary as it sounds in an advanced industrialized country, there is not yet a clear picture of what happened from New Orleans on south.

    by Greco on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:05:18 AM EST
    Thank Greco. Do you have a link for this piece?

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:13:09 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It's from Stratfor. You have to be a subscriber to have access to it.
    by Greco on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:20:33 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    That's a nasty headline. I find these media vultures pretty putrid. I told you so's while people are dying. I have no doubt that the strength of the storm is related to global warming but the fact is there have also been storms of that size in the region long before global warming. Until this week, a Cat 4 has never hit that area directly. Camille was Cat 4 and Cat 3.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:11:11 AM EST
    Upstate, I see nothing vulture-like in this. When to remind of the irresponsibility of irresponsible authorities than when the first effects are apparent?

    I can assure you that the German press was thematising wrong flood regulation policies and global warming during the August 2002 flood, too - and it was right to do so. (More, I don't remember anyone complaining about them doing so.)

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:16:48 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It's the equivalent of someone berating a cancer-patient for smoking while they're lying on their death-bed.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:27:34 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Now THAT was rather off the mark. It's not like the USA is about to collectively die. If we are going to compare countries to single persons and not differentiate authorities from the population, it's like berating a smoker breaking out in heavy coughing (and about to light up again), warning him of severe bronchitis and lung cancer.

    And it is also like discussing what to do regarding Iraq while a hundred people or more die each day. Sorry, I just can't understand this tendency of not wanting to hear debate on things we can do something about, just when they are topical.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:41:40 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Whatever. I've been talking about Iraq for months and years on end. So yes, something else has my attention right now. The article linked was purely hypothetical, so in the absence of offering anything of substance, it is better to keep silent while people are dying. And yes, they are indeed dying, as much as cancer patients die.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:45:30 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    And people in Iraq, and people in Niger, and people in Kongo, and people with AIDS. Yet people don't demand that you shut up and don't talk about anything related while they die. This still doesn't make any sense to me. (As for the article not offering anything of substance, I of course disagree.)

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:50:04 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Please don't parse out the substance of what I said and then separate it into bits. I never said people should shut up. I said that unless you're offering something of substance, you should keep silent in times like these rather than be quick to appoint blame when you have no real argument for doing so. There' a big difference there. That article does not tie in gloabl warming precisely enough to this catastrophe. We are talking about August water in the gulf, prior to the heart of Hurricane season, a Cat 4 hurricane, which have been common in the Gulf for many years, even prior to Global Warming. So unless the German paper can make the case that global warming caused the Cat 4 to veer toward New Orleans, I will persist in my belief that this is mostly an unlucky occurrence that happens to have killed lots of people. In my view, talkof global warming with regard to the devastation of New Orleans is off the mark and reeks of a blame game whose object is to make political points out of the USA's ridiculous and short sighted policies on global warming.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:04:46 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    No, I didn't take it apart, we just disagree completely.

    I don't think you should advise people to keep silent even if they have 'nothing of substance to say'. Some people talk bullshit all the time, that's part of the parcel when issues are debated. I.e., I agued for debate, whatever the content.

    On the second issue, you want to see this as an all or nothing thing: did global warming cause this or not. But IMO it is worth to talk about global warming even if it is just one contributing factor, or even if it is just likely contributing factor, or even if it is a statistical effect (making an early August Category 4 veering into the Gulf more likely), or even if it is projected to lead to more of such disasters while it can't yet be traced in this one.

    And I can't see what's the problem with making political points - unless we understand something entirely different under the word 'politics'. (For me, it roughly means "what should be done?")

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:24:41 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    You did take it apart. I believe people have some responsibility for what they say, no matter the venue or the context, and frankly I don't find bullshit valuable. American has a horrible global warming policy. Thousands of people are dying in New Orleans because of a hurricane. If you want to make political points because of these two facts, well then, to each his own.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:32:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I believe people have some responsibility for what they say, no matter the venue or the context, and frankly I don't find bullshit valuable.

    I didn't dispute that, tough it's one thing to talk bullshit knowingly and another to talk bullshit while one thins he says something intelligent. What's valuable is discussion, and it would be stiffled if anything someone declares bullshit is kept out.

    For example, during the Asian Tsunami, there was also talk about global warming, which was truly silly in that context. However, there was also talk about an improper catastrophy response system, and a missing tsunami early warning system, and about rising sea levels due to global warming that'll hit the same cities, and settlements on peninsulas with no escape routes - which all made sense. The first and second problem is about to be corrected - and neither would have happened if only specialists debated it when the disaster was in past memory.

    Please, define "political" as in your usage.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:02:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The US is a laggard with respect to the gloabl environment. It deserves condemnation. It deserves a thread on this blog today for its policies (and there is one in the Bolton UN thread). I don't see the connection, however, to New Orleans, so the criticism offered strikes me as politically motivated (i.e. it tries to condemn America's environmental policies with the hypothesis that New Orleans may have been avoided otherwise). What's the motivation behind such a thesis? The fact that the US is failing the environment miserably. And the suffering of people in New Orleans is now somehow a catalyst for the venting of such criticism. This seems to me the essence of the political, making use of one incongruous and anomalous situation to score political points toward an end goal that may indeed seem worthy.
    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:11:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Again, you just see blame. But it's not about condemning the USA, but about changing its ways.

    Even the title you objected to:

    Katrina Should be A Lesson To US on Global Warming

    A lesson is something you learn and apply.

    You again say, ignoring what I said a few rounds back, that "it tries to condemn America's environmental policies with the hypothesis that New Orleans may have been avoided otherwise". But just read what SPIEGEL quoted first in that article:

    [the author] insists that global warming and climate change are making it ever more likely that storms and floods will plague America and Europe.

    Question: do you dispute the validity, and relevance, of this point?

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:09:43 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    How is Katrina a lesson to the US on Global Warming?

    That's the main question.

    A lesson is something you learn from. Changing our global warming policies will not teach us anything about the ways of Katrina and her devastations.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:13:48 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Simple: 'It's ever more likely that [such] storms will ravage America and Europe'. Before, that was words, now we see what it means.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:34:29 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I'm not trying to be a "prick," but again, that's the kind of opportunism I think is inappropriate at this time. To say storms in general will happen because of global warming is quite different from saying Katrina  in particular teaches us a lesson related to global warming. It simply doesn't. And as a matter of fact, "before," it wasn't words. Camille was just as bad a storm in the 1960s, except it didn't hit New Orleans.

    Again, the difference here is not global warming. It's the fact that the storm hit a city.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 03:02:54 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, you have to catch them, when they are at their most vulnerable and perceptive to improveme their overall situation. And then I would also read Psalm 23 with/to them.

    Upstate:
    Please understand, we (well, I) might be cynical about what is going on, but we are also quite aware off it and shocked and willing to help as best as we can - and you are doing a great job in helping us understand even better, thank you! We are in the same boat here!

    However, we also have a different perspective because we (and you heard the stories from the different countries) have had floods in the past and developed strategies to cope, which not always worked either.

    We all know, that you cannot compare one death to the next, that is silly and nobody does that. One dead is as tragic, hearbreaking and regretable as the next. When we give you the examples we want to tell you, that we are compassioned due to our history as well as due to the reaction of seeing those ghastly images.

    Lets hope that there is less damage than feared, but more preventative action than feared as well, for next time. So yes, tell the smoking lungcancer patient while in hospital - there might be a chance, not for him, but for the children.

    by PeWi on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:03:13 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Thank you for your note. As some of you on this blog realize, I am a European-born naturalized American who wouldn't think of diminishing the suffering in other parts of the world, especially since my family has experienced this sort of thing before.

    Quite frankly, New Orleans is bad, but it's not on par with the Indonesian tsunami which kept me up nights. That doesn't mean it's not horrifying. I think we should all cut Ben some slack. His words were ill chosen but they stem from a rather insulated perception of what the world thinks of the crisis. I have an insulated perception of what you all perceive as well (and to be frank, this thread isn't really aiding the sense that we Americans are in this alone). Truthfully, we just don't know if others around the world are seeing what we're seeing, if you are seeing people cry for help holding onto trees for dear life while boats filled to capacity just go by. So, I understand Ben's garden variety comment in that context. I can't understand why any blogger on this magnificent blog would choose to diminish anyone's suffering, and that's why I give Ben the benefit of the doubt and choose to believe that he is trying to say that the New Orleans devastation is so incredibly bad that it defies belief.

    I hope my contributions to this blog are merely highlighting the fact that a lot of this could not have been avoided due to the nature and strength of the storm itself. I'm trying to beat back the blame apportioned to those who built homes in New Orleans, those who didn't leave depsite the warnings and despite government provided evacuation transportation, and also the engineers who could not really be expected to hold off a storm this size. For those who insist that Holland does it better, that may very well be true, but frankly I have little interest in investigating it right now. I can say, however, that Holland is not subject to Cat5 hurricanes nor does it have the river the size of the Mississippi dumping water into it. Biloxi, which was hit by the eye of the storm, was subject to 50 foot storm surges. Can any levee in the world withstand that? I think not.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:16:04 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I think part of our disagreements come from your perception that what we write is meant to diminish suffering. (BTW, I see the same pictures, if not elsewhere, I have CNN.) The other is some really serious difference in when we want to discuss connected issues we can do something about.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:41:14 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The main part of our disagreement is that I believe criticism should be based on facts. This hurricane happened in August well before the height of Hurricane season. In other words, the water is already very warm there, and hurricane season hasn't even hit its sweet spot yet. Coupled witht he fact that hurricanes this strong have gone through the region prior to concerns with global warming, and I tend to discount this emphasis as offered in newspapers. There is little direct correlation unless one can prove that somehow the hurricane veered directly toward New Orleans this time whereas in the past it would typically hit less inhabited areas of Texas and Mexico.

    That's all I'm saying.

    by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:47:37 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    the difference is in interpretation and which facts are deemed irrelevant or unrelated. (And even the facts themselves are challenged by the other side, as the weatherproof generators in my case and the 50-foot surge and 25-feet levees in your case.)

    Upstate, I already detailed how the potential relatedness is not that simple. Now I only add that what you write about hurricanes this strong prior only underlines the value of the other criticism you objected to, about levees scaled for Cat-3 storms or less.

    (Besides, the article you object to was a recension of commentries, not the commentries itself - the originals might have been more specific.)

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.

    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    What the fuck are you talking about? What is offensive about the headline?
    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:24:57 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    No, s/he didn't meant your title. It seems the comment s/he was responding to was removed the frontpagers (IIRC it was whataboutbob who made the comment, so he might have done it himself).

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:38:22 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yep, I removed it on my own...just cause it seemed to be pissing people off, and since it IS a major disaster, thought discretion was better than valor...

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 04:37:30 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    ...but if someone really wants to see it, go read Der Spiegel...its in the links there...

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 04:38:48 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Firstly, I'm not sure what is nasty about my headline. And secondly, blame Jerome for the headline too: he's the one who edited it into these words.

    Thirdly, I agree that my story is hyperbolic, but I did this in part intentionally and in part because its kind of the nature of blogging, esp. late at night when you get a bee in your bonnet. I was also trying to emphasize the magnitude and scale of this disaster to people who might not have had access to or be able to feel the pulse in the US. I do believe one of the purposes of this blog is to create a greater degree of international understanding, and I was trying to do that.

    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:51:36 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Again, S/he wasn't speaking about your headline, but that of a disappeared comment.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:58:09 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Oh, OK. I apologize. I didn't realize this.

    Ben P

    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 03:28:37 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    U.S.: Floodwaters Hamper Hurricane Relief
    August 31, 2005 14 13  GMT

    On Aug. 31, floodwaters continued to hamper relief and damage assessment efforts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, with Port Fourchon, the focal point of petroleum efforts in the Gulf, being particularly difficult to reach. All but one road leading in and out of New Orleans has been completely submerged by floodwater, including the rail yard.

    U.S.: One Of 11 Refineries Resumes Operations
    August 31, 2005 14 12  GMT

    As of 9 a.m. local time, only one of the 11 refineries that shut down operations as Hurricane Katrina approached New Orleans has restarted normal operations, leaving approximately 1.3 million barrels per day (bpd) of refining capacity offline. At least 2.6 million customers lack power, which has caused three major internal oil transport and distribution lines -- the Colonial Pipeline, the Capline and the Plantation Pipeline -- to remain in shutdown mode.

    by Greco on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:28:52 AM EST
    .
    A resistance, determination to exist and fight the elements of nature.
          "God created the Earth,
           but the Dutch created the Netherlands."

    American tourists do feel a bit uncomfortable in their approach to Amsterdam Airport: "Welcome ladies and gentlemen. We'll shortly be landing at Schiphol Airport, 15 feet below sea level."

    The Dutch do fear the onslaught of rising sea level as predicted by global warming and the melting glaciers. But after the 1953 spring tide storm disaster in their southern province of Zeeland, the Dutch rebuild all their dikes to a higher level and the immense structures to withstand all storms for a thousand years, statistically.

    The design of dikes has been unchanged for centuries, and only recently has seen a first failure of a sliding dike, due to ... drought! The Dutch design of dikes can also be witnessed in France, Normandy, from centuries ago.


    Emblem of Zeeland Province

    Coastal Guide to the Netherlands
    World Atlas

    To battle the rising tide - a political lesson from the Dutch:
    resistance, determination and invest in a plan.  

  • Oui - Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

    ~~~

    Amnesia and Gaza Genocide

  • by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:53:38 AM EST
    Wednesday, August 31, 2005

    Some Port Fourchon docks to reopen today

    By Mark Schleifstein
    Staff writer

    At Port Fourchon, Louisiana’s sprawling oilfield service port just west
    of Grand Isle, storm surge pushed water 10 feet high through the docks
    and warehouses, according to Port Director Ted Falgout.

    He said some docks will reopen today, as oil companies attempt to
    begin re-staffing offshore facilities, but the supply line to the coast for
    truck traffic has been severed.

    “Vessels are now moving in and out of the port, but our inland supply
    chain through Bayou Lafourche is blocked by several sunken vessels and
    powerlines and bridges that can’t function without electricity,”
    Falgout said.

    “I camped out in our administrative offices and it was quite a ride,”
    he said. “We are utilizing our airport in Galliano as a heliport for
    impacted companies.

    “Vessels are now moving in and out of the port, but our inland supply
    chain through Bayou Lafourche is blocked by several sunken vessels and
    powerlines and bridges that can’t function without electricity.”

    Staff writer Mark Schleifstein can be reached at mersmia@cox.net

    http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/

    by Greco on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:20:04 PM EST
    Newest (and very informative and very scary) report from an anonymous insider

    Posted by Prof. Goose in Supply/Production
    Wed Aug 31 at 11:35 AM EST

    This is from an oil industry insider I consider quite credible.  She was definitely right about everything in her last post.  If she's right about this one, we may finally start to get a true picture of what's going on.  All below the fold.

    There are MANY production platform missing (as in not visible from the air). This means they have been totally lost. I am talking about 10's of platforms, not single digit numbers. Each platform can have from 4 to 100+ wells on it. Most larger ones have 20-30 wells in this area, with numerous caisson wells. They are on their sides, on the bottom of the gulf - they will likely be left as reef material, provided we can get permission. MMS regulations require us to plug each of the wells that were on these platforms - HUGE cost now, as the platforms are gone... Hopefully, MMS will grant `abandon in place' status for these wiped out structures.

    We also set individual wells as satellites and pipe them back to existing platforms. These stand-alone wells are called caisson wells. 90% of those in the storm path are bent over, rendering them a total loss, We would have to remove the existing bent structure and drill a new well, as bent pipe is basically unusable.

    We utilize platforms as gathering hubs. We pipe the raw oil/water to them and then send it on for separation, or separate it there and send finished oil on. Damage to a hub means everything going to the hub is offline indefinitely. There are +/- 15 HUBS missing. MISSING!! As in we cannot find them from the air.

    Thus even if the wells feeding the hub are ok, we have nowhere to pump the oil to...

    The jackup drilling rigs appear to be in various stages of damage, but most rode the storm out with minimal problems. However, each of them has shifted position.

    When we jack the rig up, it is carefully positioned directly over the well slot where we are working. The derrick has rails that allow us to slide it in 4 directions to get the derrick directly over the well or slot. If the rig moves (right/left, or from level to uneven), it has to be jacked back down to the waterline and repositioned with tugboats, then jacked back up. After it is back up and level, the derrick is slid on the 2 sets of rails, and bolted into position over the well or slot again.

    Thus we have to reset each of the drilling rigs, which requires getting OUT of the well, tugboats and a move, then getting back into the well. The open hole we have drilled (what is not enclosed in cemented casing) is likely to be lost, and if the wellhead or the casing is bent, then the well will have to be redrilled. This is an exploration setback of at least a month, but we don't yet know the boat situation.

    Boats are usually brought into harbor to weather storms. We do not have a boat count yet, but from the initial reports, we may have lost or grounded 30% of the Gulf of Mexico fleet. This means everything will cost more, take longer - repairs, repositioning, everything.

    In short, the Gulf area hit by the storm is basically in about the same shape as Biloxi. The damage numbers you have gotten from the government and analysts are, in my opinion, much too low. We are looking at YEARS to return to the production levels we had prior to the storm. The eastern Gulf of Mexico is primarily oil production...

    Loss of the MARS platform alone cost us 95,000 barrels a day for a year or maybe more.

    YEARS, people. I know what this means - hope everyone else gets it too...

    Click here to go to an image of a destroyed rig.

    The front page of the Houston Chronicle has a rig beached on Dauphin Island. The legs have been sheared off and derrick is missing – thus it is a total loss. This rig was operating in Main Pass (adjacent to Plaquemines Parish), and thus was blown to Alabama and beached.

    Technorati Tags: peak oil, oil, katrina, gas prices

    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2005/8/31/83553/8973#more

    by Greco on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:54:54 PM EST
    The US government agency responsible for oil and gas production from the Gulf of Mexico is the Mineral Management Service.  They are publishing a daily report on the hurricane's effects.

    Here is the production summary for today:

    Today's shut-in oil production is 1,371,814 BOPD. This shut-in oil production is equivalent to 91.45% of the daily oil production in the GOM, which is currently approximately 1.5 million BOPD.

    Today's shut-in gas production is 8.345 BCFPD. This shut-in gas production is equivalent to 83.46% of the daily gas production in the GOM, which is currently approximately 10 BCFPD.

    by corncam on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:46:38 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    First off, I'm sorry that I offended people by trying to my European comparison. I did that - because I have been seeing these events covered on the French news - and I am trying to emphasize that this Hurricane and its longterm effect are of several magnitudes greater than natural disasters that typically make the news - whether in the US, Europe, or wherever.

    Also, I apologize for giving the impression that I was trying to make this a "comparison" about which is "worse" in terms of human tragedy. I certainly did not intend to make this point. I do in fact think 1000s have died. But my main point is that this disaster needs to be understood that it is much larger than any natural disaster in US history. Literally, a city of half a million people might never be habitable again. It is going to do serious damage to the US and the global economy. And I felt as though the media/blogs out and in of the United States have not really picked up on the true gravity of what is occurring and that I wanted to emphasize that.

    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:33:00 PM EST
    Fair enough. The newspapers you could check were behind the news, tough (what you can read at 10am EDT in European papers was filed at midnight CE(S)T in Europe, that is 6pm EDT the previous day, and probably based on news again hours earlier) - but the TV news carried all the fresher news about New Orleans getting flooded 80%, dead in the streets, looting, Biloxi totally destroyed, etc.

    *Lunatic*, n.
    One whose delusions are out of fashion.
    by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 02:45:16 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    This afternoon's edition of Le Monde barely makes a mention of Katrina, and has a half page article in page 4 or 5. Very strangely absent coverage. They decided this morning, when it was already pretty clear that things were much worse than said earlier. (Thier website was much better in that respect - it kept Katrina at or near the top throughout the day)

    I would not blame Libé as much because last night, when they finished off this morning's paper, the tone in the US was still one of relief, so they reflected that.

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 04:15:28 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well Ben, it was one helluva an article, and I thank you for it...even though it stirred up a lot of feelings (etc). That's the biggest brouhaha we've had since early on when someone posted a pro-Turkey in the EU article and got lots of reactions. I think that^s good, as long as we all stay respectful in our disagreements. In the end we (I for sure) have been definitely educated, and perhaps we aired some feelings that have been there between the US and Euro "cousins". Eye-opening and thought-provoking and conversation starting!! So now...we wait and see what the real fall-out is. Our prayers to the people of New Orleans, Biloxi, and surrounding areas.

    "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
    by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 04:46:49 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well I guess you'll have to color this american stupid cause when I read the diary late last night I didn't take offence to anything that had been written.

    Reading what people write is always open to some misinterpretation either by words a diarist or poster uses or someone who is reading when there was no ill intent.  And proves once again how powerful words can be when framed wrong.

    "People never do evil so throughly and happily as when they do it from moral conviction."-Blaise Pascal

    by chocolate ink on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 05:34:00 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Who says France can't be solipsistic? In some ways, France is just so like the United States.

    What did you think of the coverage of the Martinique Air Disaster? I was really quite surprised by just how much coverage that got. I have a strange sense that this in some way relates to the a kind of subconscious desire on the part of the "metropole" to verify that the French culture and French language's reach is still global (which it surely is), but I do think - as you note - the French feel tremendous sense of pressure/"inadequacy" - from the "Anglo-Saxon" world.

    Ben P

    by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:33:34 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Oh no, the last big crash, the Charm El Cheikh one (in January 2004, IIRC) got the same kind of silly coverage for days and days.

    Our media is becoming really bad for that stuff ("it bleeds and it leads") - absolutely no perspective, and litterally wallowing in the easy tears (easy for the networks, I mean).

    It's not a sign of a healthy society. We're running scared of our shadows. Fear of the loss of control. Planes, like trains or buses,  are piloted by someone else, so that's unsafe, obviously - as opposed to our cars - and this is especially "tragic" when the pilots or planes are "brown"

    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 07:06:48 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I first want to say all of the discussion about how this will effect oil prices, etc. has me a little unnerved.  I mean, I am sure everyone outside the Gulf Coast wants to understand how this event is going to effect them, what does it have to do with your lives.  But we have a truly serious disaster here, the impact of which neither Europe NOR America will comprehend for months, and I mean these people, most of whom were living in or near poverty to start with, have lost everything.  So it will cost you more to drive from your dry safe home to your dry safe job and back to your dry safe family?  Ride a bike.  

    Secondly, this is a natural disaster.  I don't doubt global warming played into it and bad planning and poor infrastructure certainly didn't help.  But I am very very disappointed to see the tone of this thread.  Blame America for Iraq, for Bush, for being rude selfish twits, for processed cheese food.  But innocent American people are suffering and I find it terribly crass to suggest that if they'd just had Dutch dikes, this would have been avoided.  They didn't, and the people suffering had no f-ing say in what dikes they got.  I find that to be a discussion for another day.  Bragging about how Europe is more competent now comes off as insenstive and tacky.  Bad manners.  Europe probably IS more competent!  But unless you want to use that competence to help those people down there right now it doesn't make a bit of difference.

    Try to remember that America wasn't blaming the people of Ache or Turkey etc. when they fell victim to natural disasters.  And gosh, I mean, I say that as someone who gags when I hear our National Anthem or see pickups with Jesus and American flag bumperstickers.  I say that as someone who loathes our leaders and our behavior in the world as much as anyone.  

    I guess what I really want to say is that, and perhaps the point of the diary is, this is not just America saying, "Oh, look at me, my problems are worse than yours, waahhh."  Ok?  This isn't us wanting to be the center of attention.  This is f-ing huge.  Oh. My. God. huge.

    Anyway.  Sorry for the crybaby tone.  I just found out I have mono.  So go nice on me. ;)

    Oh, about the mayor of NO telling people to pray: if I were trapped in NO, you bet I'd be praying.  And I am not even religous.

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

    by p------- on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 05:26:14 PM EST
    To start off, let me say that I lived for eleven years in Slidell. I graduated from Slidell High School. My immediate family left the area some 10 years ago, so my attachment to New Orleans is emotional...partly nostalgic and partly because New Orleans has always been such a magic place for me growing up. It was a place where someone who didn't exactly fit in could imagine and sometimes visit and feel that he could take a little breath of fresh air.

    Slidell is now a wasteland.

    New Orleans is now a wasteland.

    I have to agree with Poemless that I've been rather disappointed with the tenor of this thread. Maybe the initial title was a bit misstated...and I know that Americans do tend to view the world from their own Amerocentric view. But the tone seemed to move to something else...

    So I'm left with this...

    "We know there is a significant number of dead bodies in the water," and other people dead in attics, Mayor Ray Nagin said. Asked how many, he said: "Minimum, hundreds. Most likely, thousands."

    You can find this story at: href="http://www.wwltv.com/sharedcontent/nationworld/katrina/stories/083105ccjccwNatHurricane.474680 ea.html"WWL-TV>

    This is on top of uncorroborated reports that hundreds may be dead along the Mississippi coast.

    Let me see if I can put this into a little perspective...

    The New Orleans metro area has a population of over 1,350,000. The Biloxi-Gulfport-Pascagoula metro area has a population of over 250,000.

    So that leaves us with a population of something of the order of Vienna. While some may grouse at the comparison, Vienna gave the world the waltz, while New Orleans gave the world jazz...each of us can choose which is personally more satisfying...but we can all agree that both are contributions to humanity that are now PART of our humanity.

    So...

    Imagine tomorrow that some one thousand die in Vienna.

    Imagine then that Vienna has to evacuate. I'm talking about everyone...EVERYONE leaving the city.

    Imagine that a public health emergency has been declared in the region around Vienna...the fear is that disease will take other lives.

    Imagine that most of those people will not be able to return for at least four months...probably up to one year.

    Imagine that some are seriously questioning the logic of rebuilding Vienna. It's on the Danube...the existing defensive system didn't work even though it was one of the most extensive in the continent, so why rebuild?

    That's what is happening right now.

    I understand that there is a lot of anger at the US. Hell, I'm angry at the Bush administration. I don't agree with most of the policies of the Bush administration...Hell...I was so frickin angry at Bush's press conference that I could have spit fire. The federal government has failed in this effort while the Louisiana authorities have really done more could have been expected. I've seen policemen begging on TV for more assistance...they are simply overwhelmed.

    But don't take it out on New Orleans...

    New Orleans has been bleeding over the last two days. I just can't imagine that this is the same great city that I cared about and dreamed about. I listen to press conferences that the governor and mayor give...they are near the breaking point...you can hear it in their voices.

    This is a major city on the verge of the breaking point.

    This is not the time.

    by gradinski chai on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 06:25:54 PM EST

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