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How many US undergraduates are active if you include financial aid programmes involving on-campus work?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 09:51:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't the slightest idea, but I'm guessing it's a fairly large percentage, but, again, that's just a guess based wholly on my experience.  Everyone I know (knew) works (worked).  My parents and their friends all worked.  Most financial aide does not allow for living expenses, and, even though most students come from middle-class backgrounds, they still can't afford to not work.  I managed to avoid working for the last two years of my degree, but only because I saved while I worked full-time during community college (first year and a half), which costs only a fraction of what university education costs.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:06:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yay for community colleges. When I was a TA, my best (most engaged) undergraduates tended to be CC transfers.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's similar to my experience.  I think part of it lies in CC transfers being students who were probably more likely to have worked during their CC years, while the kids who went straight to the university ended up spending the first two years at parties and sleeping through half the classes.  There seems to be a difference in maturity.  The people I know who went to CC also graduated, or currently have, higher GPAs than those who started at university straight out of high school.

Not sure what the stats show.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 01:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is my opinion of the US higher education system. Do you agree, Drew?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 06:16:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In general, absolutely.  However, my experience with how community college students are viewed is different, in that no one has ever held it against me.  In fact, many admire it, especially if you're headed to prestigious schools for graduate school.  I had a classmate in sociology who is now headed to Smith University.  She was a community college grad, and now she's headed to the most prestigious women's school in the country.

There's no shame, whatsoever, in community college.  As I said, most people I know who went straight to the universities from high school ended up drunk and stoned for the first two years.  Many flunked out and ended up in community colleges, anyway.  And they're all spending more than the traditional four years in school, whereas my fiancee graduated in only three and a half years with her degree, and I finished within the same period with two degrees.

Once you get beyond the introductory coursework, which is offered at any community college, I think it's better to have professors who are more concerned with research, since they're more able, in my experience, to walk you through complex concepts and demonstrate the concepts' usefulness, from an academic standpoint.

What will be interesting to see is whether states will begin making it their policies to have all students first attend community college for the first two years, and then to have them move on to the universities.  I think it would be a mistake, and would crowd out the students who want and need to remain local and keep fees down, but I'm hearing more and more talk of it in the local press here in Tallahassee.  I guess the state legislature and the governor are thinking about it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 07:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She was a community college grad, and now she's headed to the most prestigious women's school in the country.

By the way, you mentioned others viewing CCs as being where brown people go to school.  My old classmate is black, grew up poor, and damned if she's not pulling ahead of everyone.  Just goes to show the truth in your point about smart kids finding a way.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 07:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"This is where brown kids go to school" is something I heard Sherman alexie say during a talk at Riverside Community College, to stress why he loved talking at CCs.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 03:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are differences in how countries regard part-time work as well. You may count as inactive in most European countries even if you work part-time while in the US one hour of work makes you employed if I recall properly.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:22:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The one hour cut of is the international labor organization (ILO/BIT) definition agreed upon by member nations & used in most international comparisons of unemployment. See my post further down for more on the two versions of unemployment calculated in France.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:36:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The ILO agreements are guidelines and several of the surveys depart from them as far as I could make out from the small print in the OECD comparisons.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For the most part EU countries are using or will use the ILO definition in the near future. Euro-stats uses the ILO definition but caps the age group at 74. The latest Eurostat memo states:

Current deviations from definition of unemployment in the EU Labour Force Survey
Spain, United Kingdom: Unemployment is restricted to persons aged 16-74. In Spain the legal age limit for working is 16.
Netherlands: Persons without a job, who are available for work and looking for a job are only included in unemployment if they express that they would like to work.
The remaining deviations will disappear as Member States adapt their surveys to the new definitions. The other Member States already comply with the definition.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:52:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry I should add that countries can still maintain their own national versions of unemployment definition. France for example has two definitions.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:54:44 AM EST
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That'll make life a little easier I suppose. It still doesn't help with the structural differences, but at least the surveys will be on the same basis.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:54:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You´re right.
If you follow German national definitions on unemployment you can count as unemployed if you work less than 15 hours a week.
That´s one of the reasons (but only one of them) why there is such a big difference between the national unemployment rate of around 11% and the ILO rate of around 8% for Germany.
by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 10:45:03 AM EST
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