US Middle Class on the Edge | 47 comments (47 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

I was thinking today that what is required is a new type of legal company structure. Something that changed the motivations. Something that honoured employment. It may sound like a co-operative...

It should be not-for-profit, owned by all who work in it - with no outside shareholders. Salary differential capped at 30:1. Being non-profit, ie after costs, would mean higher salaries all round.

People who leave the company could cash out their ownership, but only by selling to existing owners.

An investment instrument would be needed to put income above costs into a trust to be used for expansion. The trust could be part of a network of similar trusts that invested in government bonds instead of paying taxes. That way one could control the buggers!

Just dreams - but if anyone with knowledge could point out why this couldn't work - or add to it, I'd be happy...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 10:23:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

I would completely buy this idea. However, I tend to be pessimistic about that: there will always be people wanting to stand out by being havemores. More money, more clout, well, just more. I tend to think that there is a greed "gene" in each man, civilised though he may be. An old story. Cf Hobbes.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 10:33:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

Yes, the lawyers would surely get to work to find ways around it.

Fortunately they are not so very powerful in Scandinavia. 70% or more of company CEOs in Finland have an engineering background. They usually have a better understanding of systems.

BTW agnes - sorry to involve you yesterday in that little contretemps with our Russian friend. But I think his third comment/threat revealed what we surmised from the beginning. ;-)

But anyway, I shall be all sweetness and light from now on - until someone else gets my hackles up...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 10:47:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 1)

No pb Sven, I guess I got myself involved pretty eagerly too :-) And today I received a much valued advice from Alex on how not to over-react in such situations. Did not have much sleep last night, but learnt a lot through this.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 10:56:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 1)

I've told you before, Finland is not in Scandinavia...

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 11:24:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 1)

Don't get me started!

OK let's look at the alternatives:

Nordic region = 'pure' scandinavian (by language) + Baltic states + SF

Baltic region = as above plus Poland and Germany (the old Hansa)

Scandinavia = Pure + Finland (my interpretation)

The language difference is less and less relevant. Politically, economically and culturally my interpretation of Scandinavia is correct.
But if you want to live in the pilkkunussijan past, go ahead ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 11:39:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

The way I see it - as do virtually all Norwegians:

Scandinavia: Norway, Sweden, Denmark
Nordic region: Scandinavia + Finland + Iceland
Baltic region: Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia

I don't find the language difference irrelevant at all; mutual intelligibility is essential to 'Scandinavia.' And Finnish is more closely related to Hindi than to the North Germanic tongues. Besides, the proportion of Finns who speak Swedish is small & shrinking.

But even assuming that it is irrelevant, as you say: Culturally we don't have more in common with you guys than with the Brits or Germans - maybe less. Politically and economically, most of Western Europe is welfare capitalist by now, so that doesn't count for a lot.

However, if you really, really crave to be Scandinavians, we just might let you. Provided, of course, that you quit accusing our cross-country skiers of doping based on pure transference!

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not true (none / 0)

Besides, the proportion of Finns who speak Swedish is small & shrinking.

Correction: the number of Finns who speak Swedish as their first language is small and shrinking.

Swedish is still a main subject in schools, though, I agree, it is under attack.

As for Danes being intelligible, I'd have to argue. But pop a hot potato in your mouth and maybe you can reproduce the speech patterns.

Personally I regard Norwegians as outside the Axis. You can't even pay taxis by credit card, and you need bank loan to get a G+T in a hotel.

We do not wish to belong to any club that would have us as a member.

Please name 10 important Norwegian innovations of the last 100 years. ;-) (apart, of course, from finding oil on your doorstep)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not true (none / 0)

Well, for one thing, GSM technology started here:

Above: the head of the Norwegian Torleiv Maseng

But of course, certain others have cribbed it to produce worthless phones that spend half the time on repair...

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's one n/t (none / 1)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's one n/t (none / 0)

So you can count that far. Not bad for a Finn! ;-)

Seriously though, I think it's time we quit hijacking this thing. We can duke it elsewhere later... Näkemiin.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 01:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not true (none / 0)

unbelievably good looking women?

......(I may regret this remark,,,an attempt at humor).

by wchurchill on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:37:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not true (none / 1)

I think the blonde is an earlier innovation, roughly cotemporal with the cheese cutter.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

And Finnish is more closely related to Hindi than to the North Germanic tongues.

Death, where is thy sting. Read: the latter are more closely related to Hindi than to Finnish.

By the way, apologies to the diarist. This is not a hijack attempt - please don't shoot, Mr. Air Marshall.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:28:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

Pls contact privately for a translation of 'pilkkunussija'...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 11:41:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

Naw, you've helpfully rendered the term elsewhere:

In translation of the politically correct kind, this would be 'a person having carnal knowledge of commas'

What on earth does that mean, though? Starting early on the vodka again there, Sven? ;-)

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Siro (none / 0)

Since I have been multiple times in Norway - Oslo, Ålesund (Innotown), Stavanger, Bergen etc and have written comunications stuff for various Norwegian companies (lead by Finns) - isn't it time you came here, and did away with all that saga stuff and got the facts?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Siro (none / 0)

Thanks for the welcome, but actually I've been there twice, including Türku and Helsinki. Generally nice place, with many crazy people, in a positive sense.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:49:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Forgive my pilkkünussiness (none / 1)

But it's Turku without an umlaut. Though Åbo in Swedish.

But I'm surprised you have any neurons left at all after visiting...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 01:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

You have an apt call-sign, as you are putting words in my mouth.

What threat are you talking about? And why don't you just say what you "surmised from the beginning"?

You people remind me of bad hollywood movie about teenagers with their "click" of cool friends.

by skitalets on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am forbidden from jousting (none / 0)

"Let's eat"

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am forbidden from jousting (none / 0)

Ну, давайте тогда!

by skitalets on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 01:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

Actually I believe there are a few "employee owned" companies in the US that fit your model almost perfectly. The exception to your model is that they are "for profit". I know one pretty well, and it evolved because the original owner kept the company private for all of his life. when he died he left the company to the employees, with some very clear legal documents outlining how this would work. employees share in the profits, and my understanding is they have done very well over time. the company must stay private--it can never go public. and I think it doesn not have the abuses in pay ratio that you see in some public companies.

by wchurchill on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:19:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And through the ages too. (none / 0)

In Finland there are still very large family owned (forest) companies eg Ahlstrom and Myllykoski. Quite well run but still quite brutal, as they are global players and have to play by global rules.

What I am looking for is a solution to the problem of finding a legal instrument that does not depend on the philanthropy of an individual, but is entrenched in law.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 3rd, 2006 at 12:45:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

US Middle Class on the Edge | 47 comments (47 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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