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I do agree that we can eat meat, but I am not sure we really need too, unless we live somewhere where there is not enough plant food. Meat is only one source for protein, and some consider it not even a good quality source for protein.  What is more, we do not actually need the animal protein, what we need is its component, the amino acids. These are plentyful in plants too, however not all plants have all of the essential amino acids. Thus the need to pay a little more attention to how the food is combined.
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:23:35 AM EST
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We also need a diary on the progressive impoverishing of the vegetable side of our diets.

We basically have to relearn all that we've forgotten about tradiational diets, which were varied, and generally poor in animal protein. Around 1800 the "modern" versions of "traditional" dishes arose, which were highly enriched in their animal content. Where a stew would have had a little meat for flavour, it now consists mainly of meat and so on.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:28:42 AM EST
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A good point. A "pot au feu", for example, one of those traditional French dishes with meat and lots of veggies, used to be cooked on Sundays in the countryside. A temptative comment would be: "ah because it took a long time to cook?" (ps: takes over 3 hours), but the most probable answer is because meat was something you wouldn't eat very often, which you'd, for example, keep for church day.

Hey, maybe I'm on to something here. It would be interesting to note how religion and meat have been entangled in the past. And I'm not thinking about the Cathars, Buddhists, or even Japanese edo-era edicts banning meat, but about bans on meat in some parts of Europe during the Middle-Ages. I think there were some, who knows anything about this? Maybe some catholic ruler of France did this for some time, I have a faint recollection of something along those lines.

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:39:17 AM EST
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And you'll note it's the sort of dish you can make with cheaper cuts of almost any meat.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:40:30 AM EST
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Good reminder.
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:47:59 AM EST
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In Spain we eat a lot of fish because of Lent. Well, Lent was the motivation for a thriving fishing industry and a fish-eating culture even deep in the plateau. I have seen claims that Madrid's fish market is second only to Tokyo's.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:41:15 AM EST
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Madrid and Barna fish markets together go over Tokyo. Or at least that's what I heard.

No proof

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:23:21 AM EST
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But Madrid is 500 km inland!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 11:10:10 AM EST
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There was a fascinating article in Scientific American years ago about the evolution of European diets from the middle ages to the present and the influence that te discovery of distillation had, both technically and philosophically (for instance, it used ot be believed that digestion was fermentation, but then the belief changed to distillation - this also informed the choice of what constituted a healthy meal, and the order of courses). What we now call "french cuisine" originated from this transition.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:44:59 AM EST
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I read someplace, the more meat a society consumes, the more they are agressive to war. The US today has one of the highest meat consumptions. It would be interesting to compare other countries.

In Ayurveda meat is considered tamasic, that is dulling to the mind. One of the reasons more why spiritual groups or religions abstain from eating meat. It interferes with meditation.

by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:48:28 AM EST
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I read some place that the more yoga a country does the poorer it is. Look at India.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:49:56 AM EST
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What do you mean by yoga?
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:52:30 AM EST
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I see a diary brewing...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:55:13 AM EST
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Good, when are you going to post it? :))
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:16:31 AM EST
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No, no, it's you and my girlfriend that have the necessary knowledge.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:17:30 AM EST
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I've forgotten the necessary knowledge. Anyway, there's all sorts of religious/spritual beliefs tied up in it that I am not qualified to discuss on the basis that I don't believe a word of it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:19:44 AM EST
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Chakrasespecially drive me up the wall. But even if you are not interested in following the yogi's path of spiritual enlightenment, it does seem that yoga helps a lot with centering, and that is useful.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:25:33 AM EST
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Absolutely. And it's not bad exercise either.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:27:55 AM EST
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I meant the assorted practices associated with the original forms that the modern western forms (DYNAMIC YOGA????) are derived from.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:57:29 AM EST
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Well, that is not what is yoga in India as I learned. The physical aspect of yoga is a rather small part. Most Indians are not doing that kind of yoga. That would be like expecting all Muslims to do the Derwish dance. The interesting thing is that yoga seems to be re-introduced to India through the Westerners traveling there. Originaly the physical or Hatha Yoga was a preparation for those seeking the spiritual path and enlightenment, preparing their body to be able to sit quietly for hours. Actually most people here in the West do Yoga for the side effects and not it's original purpose. At least at the beginning.
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:07:03 AM EST
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Those would be the original practices western yoga is based on.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:15:28 AM EST
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Yes
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:19:05 AM EST
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That would be Iyengar yoga.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:19:22 AM EST
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Charming.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:20:52 AM EST
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Iyengar yoga is one form of Hatha yoga named after its 'founder'B.K. There are different schools of Hatha Yoga, though Iyengar is one of the better know in the West.
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:24:51 AM EST
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Really? With straps and props? One of the better known? Eeek.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:26:04 AM EST
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shoot!!! I should have checked your link first. What a silly picture. Thats the stuff that brings disregard to Yoga. Iyengar style uses lots of probs - most others do not.
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:28:09 AM EST
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It's a wiki, you know? And you're an expert... And you have the copyright of any photographs you may have taken youself... You get my drift? By the way, I'd love to read a diary by you titled "What do you mean by Yoga?", really...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:30:14 AM EST
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Ok. I see what I can do, however, it will have to brew a little more.
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:35:40 AM EST
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Please brew... I mean, please do.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 11:03:10 AM EST
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That's what I thought. Don't confuse me like that.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 10:32:45 AM EST
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I knew this restaurant owner in Toulouse who was once the manager of a small town football club. He explained to me that red meat was banned from the player's diets before matches, as eating any would increase the likelihood of cramps during the match.
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:54:13 AM EST
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So red meat is like sex then?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:55:06 AM EST
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In fact, I'm sure we don't need to eat meat.  Eat a big steak, and a few hours later you're digestive system is thrown into complete chaos.  Eat a salad, and everything is fine.  But, as you note, meat should be a substitute in places where plant sources are lacking in the necessary nutrients.
by DH from MD on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:30:57 AM EST
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I wasn't thinking of the meat as the substitute. I was more thinking of combining the different plant foods. For example lentils has many of the amino acids missing in most veggis. However, here lentils and beans for a long time have been considered poor peoples food and thus avoided. Now with the meat scandals, BSF, hormons etc. even chi-chi restaurants start serving fancy lentil dishes again. I would say unless you live way up north, there is no real need for meat as a food source. I do not mind people eating a little meat, if they do it consciously and even with a little gratefulness to the animal that gave its life so that the human can live, or better in most cases just tickle his taste buds.
by Fran on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:41:35 AM EST
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Beans are also the key to getting all your daily nutrients for cheaper, and to farming without the need for nitrogen-based fertilizers.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:46:34 AM EST
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Good point, lentils (perhaps beans in general?) are actually very easy to grow, according to a friend here who grows organic ones in the Tarn nearby. Another note: lentils are staple food in Sri Lanka. Most people there eat lentils almost daily.

I rediscovered lentils over there. I was angry at lentils before that, as I used to find them dry and tasteless in French recipes. But in a curry, wooooooooow! Parippu (lentil curry) has got to be one of the best dishes in the world.

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:52:38 AM EST
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Ah.  Well, you sohuld probably know that I'm an idiot, which is why I didn't read it properly.  You still make a good point, though.
by DH from MD on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:58:49 AM EST
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that's why a lot of vegetarians and vegans look like bad pr for the cause; simply dropping the meat and eating the carrots and spuds just don't cut it.

'diet for a small planet' was a lifesaver for me in understanding this.

you don't need a calculator!

all the ancient cultures understood food combining for amino acids.

try eating beans as a vegan with no grains or viceversa, and you soon get the picture.

it's complementary, watson!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 01:56:30 PM EST
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But for this you have to go back from intensive monoculture to extensive crop rotation.

It is clear what the CAP moneys should be used for, but just like with peak oil, nobody wants to talk about the elephant in the room because we're too focused on me, me, me, and my right to eat what I want when I want, and "our way of life is non-negotiable", yadda, yadda, yadda.

A little more churning and policy proposals on all areas will be flowing out of this blog like you wouldn't believe.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 02:01:50 PM EST
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nailed in one, migeru!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 02:22:48 PM EST
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Yup.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 02:57:35 PM EST
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Yes indeedy.

The other point (after intensive monoculture => extensive rotation) is that organic meat production is of necessity extensive. Intensive animal production with nice organic feed pellets doesn't cut it, since intensive rearing causes ill-health and needs antibiotics etc to prop it up. This means intensive animal rearing => extensive a.r. => we all eat less meat. It means more extensive production on land that is less suited to crop production (hills, mountains, moorlands), that the current productivist model has gradually abandoned to become scrub.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2006 at 03:40:37 PM EST
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