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Boy, this is an age-old discussion...and it always seems like science is trying to "prove" human behavior is purely genetic. And there's periodically  this "aha! how we know" statement made. But if it were true, you would think we would have "won" the war on cancer along time ago, yes?

But...Well, humans are just too complex to prove anything causal...the best we can do is show possible significant relationships, and that involves much speculation, as it is. I have worked with a lot of people over the years as a psychologist, and there's a few where you could say maybe, "yes, this looks like there might be a genetic or other physiological involvement"...and if that is the case, I'd get medical consultation. I've come to believe that "bi-polar affective disorder" is pretty much physiological, though there always seems to be more going on than that for a person. But depression? That's too complicated to be just written off as "genetic" (imho)...I once worked with person who went off meds for depression, and substituted those for a good diet, vitamins, daily exercise, sitting under a light daily and meditation...and they were actually feeling better...though they really had to stay in this regime, for otherwise they started getting depressed again. Long story short...what causes happiness is not that simple of a question...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 04:45:13 AM EST
Completely right Bob.. I agree completely.

There is a long lsit of culture , palces, etcc where depression is non-existent... so we know depresion is purely a social factor.. that indeed changes your body adn the level of neurotransmittor...

On the other hand schizofrenia is considered to be universal.. there are records of peole behaving as such in a lot of different places...but in this case the general thinking is that it is a problem of brain functioning.. this means that the origin could be pure DNA or more probably some problem in the DNA-protein network or even some interaction with the envronment at an early stage that can produce this illness (or a bad DNA-protein circuit) very easily...

And regarding the bi-polar deficient disorder I just love your comment.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 05:01:32 AM EST
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...trying to learn about neuro-transmitters and the chemical and electro-magnetic exchanges that go on in the brain is <heh> mind-boggling...its an amazing process what goes on between nerve cells. A miracle, really. But yes, it isn't just "in there"...there is so much from the outside that effects and can change what goes on "in there"...it is so subtle. I for one feel like relationship is a super powerful influence and determinate...the power of a positive relationship is immense. Now that's a mystery and a miracle!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 05:08:36 AM EST
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Your comment made me think, that the brain is the most sophisticated computer around - that is the hardware. But then, if this is true - WHO IS THE PROGRAMMER?
by Fran on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 05:38:08 AM EST
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That's a whole other can of worms, but I suggest Philosophy in the Flesh by George Lakoff.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 05:42:51 AM EST
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yes, and a mighty fascinating can to open.
by Fran on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 05:47:08 AM EST
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so...should I ask? (Who do you think is the programmer?)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 05:50:15 AM EST
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I don't think there is any need for a programmer, and trying to grasp how that is even possible is the gateway to a whole new appreciation of the way living systems are organized...

But I really cannot talk about self-organization without getting technical (I've been mulling over how to talk about self-organization and economics in lay terms since I first got on this blog and I still haven't figured out how to crack that nut). It's like asking about quantum mechanics but please no complex numbers.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 06:01:23 AM EST
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It is very interesting that when the vapour motor appeare at th turn of the century the brain and the human being was compared to a machine wiht all the steem needing to go out.. it needed to release the tension, the stress.. so the brain was like a wonderful motor vapour..that worked with hundreds of little motors...specially with feelings.

Now, the brain is like a computer....Basically the brain has been compared in the past with the most common /important invention at the moment...

the brain is much more than a computer.. we just happen to believe it is a like a computer becasue it is easy for us to think in these terms and we focus our reserch and understanding on looking for such features (in the same way that people look for features where the brain and the human being behave as a motor)

So, the brain is not a computer, or at least not only a computer.. so the question of the programmer is probably much more complex than that.

Hindus and bororos have a much more interesting take...I would think in their terms ...we invent ourselves since everyboydy can think with me, in me.. the other and the self  do not exist.. they are the same...You can see that it is a much more different myth (in the best meaning of the word) to explain the brain that our computer-style approach

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 06:02:06 AM EST
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I kind of see the brain...and its highly amazing workings...as more like a radar dish, where it is capable of recieving all kinds of signals (some unique and mysterious)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 07:10:37 AM EST
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Well the brain is not necessarily the most sophisticated computer around, it's more like the best processor currently around town (Earth) but not even necessarily the best model currently in the universe, or the best model for the upcoming future (I'm just nit-picking, sorry!).

Our (non-neuron) cells themselves are highly autonomous, specialized, and together form quite a powerful processing unit too (processing in the sense that they basically act on information that they receive).

Brains, I believe, are even messy processors, subject to way too many failures, exceptions, bugs. Contradiction, in general let's say, is impossible in an AMD processor ... but in our brains it's a daily event.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 08:55:07 AM EST
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The brain is a mess. It's a computer whose bits have been repurposed, patched, extensions tacked on all around the place by a million different engineers none of whom comment the code or document the hardware changes. The cabling is all over the place and unlabelled. It's good at at certain things and appalling at lots of others. It can't even remember a short list without re-inputing it a couple of times, the arithmetic module is rubbish and as for the logic module ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 09:02:08 AM EST
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I particularly liked your "the cabling is all over the place", it kind of reminds me of some situations I've been in!!

One thing we can also add is that the brain's indexing system, unlike a decent x86 and x86_64's, is totally out of control. You remember a girlfriend's laughter when you're holding a pack of chips, you remember something that someone said somewhere when you slip and fall in the staircase, etc etc

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 09:09:09 AM EST
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I don't believe I've associated a girlfriends laughter with a packet of chips, but I think I know what you mean.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 09:10:15 AM EST
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I'm an adherent of Stupid Design.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 09:34:39 AM EST
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But it has an awesome pattern recognition module! It can even recognize groups of up to 4 items without counting them (link).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 09:39:30 AM EST
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Frontpaging this? You know what the consequence is of that? It makes the hoop hang higher for the next time! The next time, I really need to sparkle, when I come here with a (semi-)serious item... In hindsight though, when I cut the newspaper clipping out on Tuesday with the intent to diary it, I had no idea there would be a somewhat ironic actuality tied to it at the moment of posting...

But here is a question I had for a professinal, so now I've found one. Haha!

Let's see. The research of Bartels focusses on happiness, but what often happens is that people lodges instead onto the other side: depression - also very clearly visible in this thread, might I say. I generalise, but the thought seems to be: If happiness is explained, then inherently there is an explanation for depression. Isn't that a bit jumping the gun? Is the lack of happiness always depression? I could see that they're diametrically opposed (but are they?), but isn't there a little more to to it than that?

And this is why gauging happiness was a debated issue in this research. Apparently we have sufficient methodology to decide when someone is depressed, but is there for happiness? It seems not.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 08:53:04 AM EST
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I'm stepping away from the ol' computer for now...so won't hazard a long answer to your very good question. But, though I have no research in hand, I don't see emotion as lineal...and there's just too many qualities of emotion. And thinking and emotion operate out of different parts of the brain. And "they" don't understand each other very well...

But I do recall seeing something once, a long time ago, about how laughter is a lot easier on you than many other emtions...but I will have to go digging on that...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 09:14:37 AM EST
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PS: Nomad, its an excellent article that is controversial...and much good discussion ensued. No problem!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 09:16:11 AM EST
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